Donna Andersen has been a great friend to me and has done so much for victims of sociopaths. She deserves an award. The latest thing she did for me personally was to lend me her copy of The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy. When I initially thought about reading the book it was more expensive than it is now; the price has come down quite a bit. That is good because I am going to have to buy Donna a new copy since I’ve marked up the entire book with notes about material to discuss here. My overall reaction to the book was negative to lukewarm until I got to page 318 (that I’ll discuss next week). After that page, I came to believe that on the whole this book is a great contribution to the field.
This week I want to use a quote from a judge to begin to discuss some of the myths regarding sociopaths. Here is the quote found on page 359:
“Well I tell you, the world is full of productive sociopaths. Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, and sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. It can be productive. I think it was Clarence Darrow who commented on that”¦”
Let’s cover these numerous false assertions out of order.
- Sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. This statement is completely, absolutely, categorically FALSE. Sociopathy/ASPD/psychopathy is always a dangerous condition. It is the most toxic personality poison and only a drop in a swimming pool of water will sicken an entire city. By definition sociopathy involves serious harm to other people and a track record of serious irresponsibility. If these characteristics are not present, the individual is not a sociopath!
- It can be productive. Sociopathy is never productive. Unless you measure productivity by ruined lives and the number of dead bodies left along the road. But where would the judge and possibly Clarence Darrow get the idea that sociopathy is productive? These people are confusing sociopathy (a disorder) with the power motive or dominance drive. It is this motive that is both productive in terms of leadership and harmful in terms of aggression. This motive is present in all humans to a certain degree. The aberrant unmitigated expression of the power motive that is seen in sociopathy is neither normal nor productive. Sociopaths may be productive in spite of disorder not because of disorder. See the next point.
- Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, Connecting this statement with describing sociopathy as a benign, productive condition is where the judge goes wrong. When sociopaths manage in spite of disorder to attain the power they crave, the results are disastrous for society.
- The world is full of productive sociopaths. This statement is partly true but this truth is not a reflection of points 1 and 2 above. As a group sociopaths are hands down losers. They die at early ages, get many more serious illnesses, and abuse substances. They usually end up losing everything and occupationally disabled. There is an appearance that the number of productive sociopaths reflects the disorder, simply because of the sheer number of sociopaths in the country. At any one point in time a given sociopath may be “successful” but that is only a snap shot. There may be a few who die before they fall but these are the extreme minority. Since there are so many sociopaths even this extreme minority may seem like a lot. If you consider the life histories of sociopaths two truths emerge. Sociopaths waste energy hurting people that could have gone into building rather than destroying. Also, the only reason they survive is that others help them. They may have power but they are by no means autonomous. This is the great irony of the disorder, antisocial individuals require a society to survive and operate!
- I am still trying to verify the origin of these false beliefs on the part of the legal profession stems from famous lawyer Clarence Darrow. If anyone can produce a quote, I would be grateful.
If you think about it, this judge is exemplifying a reasoning error due to lack of training applying research to practice. It is very difficult to apply group data to an individual because any one individual at any one point in time may not display all the characteristics of the group.
The message is clear. Judges and lawyers should stop rationalizing the leniency they extend to sociopaths. They should realize them for the dangerous, parasitic individuals they are. They should stop enabling them by forcing us to be with them. That “us” includes former spouses, children and society at large.
shabbychic, bulletproof, and firebird –
What my son told me was that after he discovered that $20.00 was missing from his wallet, he asked his dad about it, whether he took it, but his father denied doing so. I’ve had SO MANY spath experiences (more than I can count) that I’m becoming more aware about how not to react, (getting upset and hysterical) when another bomb drops. I can encourage my son to not let the experience eat at him, explaining that what his dad did was WRONG (taking his money without having permission to do so). What can he learn from this experience? Now that he knows what his father is capable of, he needs to protect himself, keeping his money tucked away, not letting his father know that he has any. It’s SAD that my son has to be pro-active in this way, but he’s now learning what kind of people are walking this planet, good and bad alike. He can gain some valuable insights from this situation. I’ve also thought that I can gently teach my son about sociopathy, giving him relevant information a little bit at at a time. Having myself been distraught in the past (over h-spath’s antics), I want my son to not get to that point, detaching from the experience, learning from it, and not allowing it to crush him, taking it very personally. Can this be taught? Can I encourage my son to step back from the experience, look at it objectively, and learn from it, trying not to let his emotions be affected?
Dear Bluejay,
to answer your question—YES, ABSOLUTELY!!!!! This is information EVERY teen needs to learn and yes, sometimes it is a painful lesson, but one none-the-less very much needed. Think of how much it will benefit him as a young adult in picking a mate, picking friends, etc.
Yep, better to learn it as a teenager than the way we learned it. The tuition is less and the lesson will stick and benefit him throughout life!
CAPRINE
getting the hair standing up on back of neck feeling after reading your post. So scary that sociopaths live amongst us so successfully, causing untold misery. You say:
“like a good Indian tracker I see signs of S.P. every where”
So do I…. so much so….I’m going to track honest human beings instead and focus on how to recognise a normal human being…I keep saying Human because so many people behave other than human…surpressing feelings, being ‘nice’ all the time,in all shades of denial…these are red flags…I do not want these people around me yet they are there…perhaps those people that killed themselves were driven to it by inhuman people? you would have to be in some state of mind to kill yourself….what we still don’t know…the mind boggles….if I were surrounded by spaths I might kill myself…I would certainly be disturbed and in pain.
OxDrover,
Thanks for the input. I have chores to work on at home. I still haven’t talked to my son – he’s out getting school supplies. I’ve been thinking about this matter for a while (since yesterday). Anyway, I’ll talk to him soon. I know that it has to be disturbing to him. Take care.
Dear Bulletproof,
Your comment about suicide made me think of some interesting statistics I read the other day about the women of
Afganastan and how high the suicide rate is, and one of the most used methods is setting themselves afire after pouring gasoline on themselves.
For all practical purposes many of these women are virtual slaves, and the young woman who came to the US last week to have surgery to replace and repair the gaping hole where her nose used to be is a prime example. She and her sister were given as “wives” to another family to PAY A DEBT owed by her family. The Taliban fighter who married her went off to fight and left her and h er sister with his family who hated them and used them like slaves. She ran away and when she was caught, her husband came back and cut off her ears and nose. She escaped again and found sanctuary and was brought to the US for surgical repair.
I can’t even imagine a SOCIETY and a CULTURE that doesn’t see women as anything but objects, or where “honor killing” is OK, or where women and even men at times are stoned to death. If nothing else, we can ADD that BLESSING to our list of blessings that besides having clean water, we are not dehumanized entirely by our society and culture as nothing but possessions.
Yes Oxy I count my blessings, it’s beyond my understanding, I simply can’t comprehend the inhumanity that seems rampant in that part of the world…I try and imagine my community..burying me up to my waist in the ground and hurling rocks at me till I bled to death…what must it feel like….I go into shock just thinking about that, yet how many women died that way?
I thank GOD I can sit with my animals in peace. I can love who I want, I can feed myself, clothe myself, drive a car, work in the community and feel valued and independent. I can have as many lovers as I want (bet you I’d have 3 if it were forbidden, as it happens I have none because they are 3 a penny and not very good quality!! but I am allowed the dignity to choose that for myself)
There are whole days this summer where I just enjoyed watching the light change, or walking in nature, having a chat with my neighbours or visiting my ageing parents. Something in me REALLY appreciates peace time. Serenity. The days rolling past in blissful succession. My beloved little home, my cats, my choices, my cooking, my drinking (jayzas that has to be nipped in the bud)
running water, my air purifier for god’s sake!! my television, MY LIFE…I LOVE my life just as it is…it’s so perfect when I let go of compairing myself to what amounts to tabloid celebrities…who are they anyway!!
So Oxy for today I’m listening to Mary Chapin Carpenter and chatting to you…hey it does not get much better than that!
Blujay:
The spath also stole from my kids.
One time eldest Jr was working with us……spath would kick us all out of the ladies house, so he could talk to her alone…a.t the end of the work period. He’d come out and dole out tips she gave us all…(HE made himself in charge).
Everyone talked about how much spath doled out…..to each person….he gave some peeps $50 and Jr $10.00.
On the way home in the car, Jr called Bullshit on spath father.
Spath said…..your working for me….you should be grateful for whatever I give you.
From that point forward, I NEVER let the spath be alone with this lady at the end of the shift……because she always tipped us…….she started handing ME the money…….and i’d put it in my bra immediately….and she’d laugh.
(she didn’t know why).
Spath hated that I wouldn’t go….finish up, load the car or whatever order he dished out to get me away from this woman, so he could steal our staffs money.
I wouldn’t BUDGE!!!
SO…..fast forward to ‘after’ spath days…….we all (minus spath) still worked for this lady……and my staff would say…..dang, she sure upped her tipping this year!!!!!
Jr. caught on to spaths stealing money from him……and figured it out on his own……
Last week he was at his new job on the beach renting boats and his boss came up and handed him and another guy $5.00 tip. Apparantly he received $100 tip from someone and this was how he split it up……..he get’s $90 and the two others get $5.00.
The guy told jr that the boss is soooooo cheap……and Jr relayed to me later…….my boss does the same thing as SPATH!!!!
I’ve seen this before……
So…..now he ‘places’ himself in a more ‘accountable’ postion when recieiving tips…..just as I did with the spath.
My kids all are aware of spathlyness……I’ve left books around, printouts on my desk….and other literature to enlighten them. They have even done their own ressearch and brought me information to enlighten me. Behaviors they’ve recognized in their own father…….
They’ve made their own choices NOT to be in any sort of contact with spath. He’s a crook, a cheat, a liar and a manipulator.
Hes even accused them of things he’s did to others…..one kid he told the police, that that jr punched him!!!! This kid was devastated……..and spath told this story around town……kids would come up to jr saying ….hey dude, why’d you punch your dad?????
This is what spath did to explain the broken finger jr had after spath kicked in our front door and jr was on the other side of it……..He couldn’t tell peeps the real story…..so a broken finger ‘could’ have occured during a punch to your dads face????!?!? CRAZY!!!
It took jr off balance……but when he regained the balance….HE SAW IT FOR HIMSELF!!!! HE LIVED IT! HE KNEW SOMETHING WAS REALLY WRONG!!!!!
Just talk to your kids honestly and openly…..and let them know you believe in them!
Don’t ever compensate for the spath…….(like give him the money back)…..because it negates the damage the spath does to the kids…….
$20.00 is an EASY eye opener!!!!!
Good luck…..it sucks our kids have to learn these lessons…..!!!
Dear Bluejay,
Yea, Bullet proof, it is unbelievable for US to realize that a good portion of the world lives in 7th century mentality about the status of women. I spent enough time in Muslim countries in Africa and North Africa that even though AT THE TIME I WAS THERE I didn’t realize the depth of the “7th century mentality” I can still look back on what I saw then and see the things I missed then because of my own youth and lack of experience.
I agree with EB, Bluejay let your son feel the loss of the money because if you give him the money to make it up, he won’t feel the loss that will give him the message.
Wow Oxy…just reading about the “inhumanity” on this earth is appalling! I am in my early fifties, raising three teenage girls…and I am living with an “attitude of gratitude” daily…that we live in a “civil” world here…despite the corruption and politics of our country….we do have freedom.
I am instilling into my girls…how important it is to be able to screen people who are deceptive. Being around the wrong “influences” and “evil” people will only bring you down and complicate your life. They see how I’ve struggled to raise them alone with no help from their bio dad, all because I made a poor CHOICE in who I got involved with. I ignored the red flags and one poor decision affected my entire life journey.
I have been meeting up with women from a domestic violence group I am involved in. Every one of them have struggled because they got involved with the “wrong” man. And every one of them saw the signs and gave them the benefit of the doubt.
People tell you who they are if you look closely enough. I really believe that the public school systems need to implement programs for “socialization” and teach our children at a very young age, to spot “troubled” people…in school, on the job, amoungst their peers. If we teach them young, they won’t make the same mistakes as so many of us did.
I also teach them to be happy and content with what we have..our health, a safe home, and each other. When they see the paperwork I have to do to just save our home, etc…I teach them how to live a happy “simple” life….and it all starts with who we bring into it…or who we stay away from.
I am also teaching them to find happiness “within”….by finding hobbies and interests to learn and study…things that make them feel good. When we look for validation, approval or love from “out there”….it never works. “Find your passion in life and run with it” is my motto. Take care of your body and mind…and all good will come.
My oldest is 16 and she is a vegan. She cooks the best meals…all veggies and soy and tempeh and tofu and rice. She is transforming the rest of us to cut out foods that contaminate our bodies! She plays piano hours each day, and has screened out some “friends” who she realized are negative and not peaceful. She is on the right track.
Anyway….my mission is to help three lives (my 3 girls) to have more peaceful and productive lives than I’ve had. Learning to focus on positive things and take care of themselves is key.
Dear Tobehappy,
I bet you succeed in this effort, sounds like you are doing a great job with your girls. A loving parent is a wonderful thing for any person to have, and one who teaches them about the CHOICES we make each day and how those choices can have consequences for decades of our lives, is raising their children to succeed in this life in the best possible way, to listen to their guts and to follow their dreams and to live simply and happily, looking for happiiness within.
CANT BEAT THAT WITH A STICK!!!! TOWANDA for you!!!!!