Donna Andersen has been a great friend to me and has done so much for victims of sociopaths. She deserves an award. The latest thing she did for me personally was to lend me her copy of The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy. When I initially thought about reading the book it was more expensive than it is now; the price has come down quite a bit. That is good because I am going to have to buy Donna a new copy since I’ve marked up the entire book with notes about material to discuss here. My overall reaction to the book was negative to lukewarm until I got to page 318 (that I’ll discuss next week). After that page, I came to believe that on the whole this book is a great contribution to the field.
This week I want to use a quote from a judge to begin to discuss some of the myths regarding sociopaths. Here is the quote found on page 359:
“Well I tell you, the world is full of productive sociopaths. Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, and sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. It can be productive. I think it was Clarence Darrow who commented on that”¦”
Let’s cover these numerous false assertions out of order.
- Sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. This statement is completely, absolutely, categorically FALSE. Sociopathy/ASPD/psychopathy is always a dangerous condition. It is the most toxic personality poison and only a drop in a swimming pool of water will sicken an entire city. By definition sociopathy involves serious harm to other people and a track record of serious irresponsibility. If these characteristics are not present, the individual is not a sociopath!
- It can be productive. Sociopathy is never productive. Unless you measure productivity by ruined lives and the number of dead bodies left along the road. But where would the judge and possibly Clarence Darrow get the idea that sociopathy is productive? These people are confusing sociopathy (a disorder) with the power motive or dominance drive. It is this motive that is both productive in terms of leadership and harmful in terms of aggression. This motive is present in all humans to a certain degree. The aberrant unmitigated expression of the power motive that is seen in sociopathy is neither normal nor productive. Sociopaths may be productive in spite of disorder not because of disorder. See the next point.
- Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, Connecting this statement with describing sociopathy as a benign, productive condition is where the judge goes wrong. When sociopaths manage in spite of disorder to attain the power they crave, the results are disastrous for society.
- The world is full of productive sociopaths. This statement is partly true but this truth is not a reflection of points 1 and 2 above. As a group sociopaths are hands down losers. They die at early ages, get many more serious illnesses, and abuse substances. They usually end up losing everything and occupationally disabled. There is an appearance that the number of productive sociopaths reflects the disorder, simply because of the sheer number of sociopaths in the country. At any one point in time a given sociopath may be “successful” but that is only a snap shot. There may be a few who die before they fall but these are the extreme minority. Since there are so many sociopaths even this extreme minority may seem like a lot. If you consider the life histories of sociopaths two truths emerge. Sociopaths waste energy hurting people that could have gone into building rather than destroying. Also, the only reason they survive is that others help them. They may have power but they are by no means autonomous. This is the great irony of the disorder, antisocial individuals require a society to survive and operate!
- I am still trying to verify the origin of these false beliefs on the part of the legal profession stems from famous lawyer Clarence Darrow. If anyone can produce a quote, I would be grateful.
If you think about it, this judge is exemplifying a reasoning error due to lack of training applying research to practice. It is very difficult to apply group data to an individual because any one individual at any one point in time may not display all the characteristics of the group.
The message is clear. Judges and lawyers should stop rationalizing the leniency they extend to sociopaths. They should realize them for the dangerous, parasitic individuals they are. They should stop enabling them by forcing us to be with them. That “us” includes former spouses, children and society at large.
So so true Mama Gen. But we are all drawn in by utter good looks – programmed to be attracted to them. But what a great analogy with the rotten apple – you can have absolutely no idea from outside appearances.
Love the apple analogy Gem!!!
Dear Twice Betrayed
Just wanted to pitch in a little. Have read all the posts above.
Basically he’s a hot guy and that means that he’s got a big ol nasty fish hook dancing right in front of you with a juicy piece of bait attached. You’re already ‘half-hooked’ without even so much as a kiss etc from what I can tell.
Just think how much power you’re going to give him if he ever gets to sleep with you and use ‘full force 5’ of Oxytocin. This one could be the guy that finishes you off unless you learn to protect yourself better.
Don’t think just ‘cos you’re on LF that ‘chemistry’ gets any less powerful. Mother nature knows what she’s doing when it comes to ensuring procreation in trying circumstances.
If you go any further you will lose your ability to think clearly. DO NOT test the boundaries, you will lose every ounce of control.
He’s holding alot of cards here – he has something you want and everything to gain from hurting you. I DO NOT agree that you should have your wicked way with him – tempting as it is.
In fact the biggest fallacy is thinking we’re ‘too strong to fall’. I knew my exN was bad news when I met him – I thought I could have a ‘no strings fling’. I ended up suicidal!!! It could happen to you too.
Find a sexy man – a genuinely sexy everyday, everyway man. Sex is rubbish if you don’t trust the guy. Sex when you’re in love truly with someone that you know is a good person and really cares about you is………………beyond good – and worth waiting for. This guy can’t give you that – Hollywood fantasy =BOLLOX, we know that stuff ain’t real!
Hold out for a better offer hun is my view.
Good luck either way
Delta 1 x
–0
There’s the skillet TB so you better be good or I’ll start swinging! I agree with Delta1, don’t push the limits, we have to put the brakes on ourselves a long time before we start down the mountain and it’s too late to do it. Just tell yourself what a great catch HE MISSED because he is such a jerk wad! You are WAAAAY too good for the likes of him. (((((Hugs))))
TB, Thanks for replying darling. I find that sometimes Nature God, or the Universe sends us the same set of circumstances again and again till we GET IT. In your case an exceedingly painful scenario, re your ex no.2 and your darling{not!} daughter. This new jerk may well have had her as well as you in his sights.I know you wont go there!
Like you, Im total NC with both my spath Ds.{One of them her choice , not mine.}
Any daughter who has an a ffair with an ex husband of yours is a TOTAL GOLD PLATED BIATCH.and a COW Dont tell me they dont know what they’r doing.
Jesus said,”They know not what they do.” BULLCRAP!!
they know DAMNED WELL what theyr doing, they love to
kick you when your already down, then PUT THE BOOT IN for the kidney blow.!!
Its one year and 3 months since I went total NC with first biatch Daughter, {now 46.} havent seen the other for 17 and a half years.I was so caught up in the FOG for 30 years, it takes total NC before the penny starts to drop and we really start to SEE what unadulterated evil, cruel,conniving,hard hearted SCUM they really are. I suppressed so much anger for SO long, just to get to see my other 3 Grandkids. Have seen them now exactly twice in 2 years, but you know what? NOTHING is worth going back to the way I was. gaslighted, fearful, guilty,{false guilt,}walking on eggshells with them, pleading to see the kids, being conned and used,{or rather LETTING them con and use me} for years and years Its been hard, as Oxy said, like cutting out your hert witha rusty bowie knife, in my case it felt like my entrails a s well!
We CANT go back, we are winning,we are on the up and up!
NOTHING will ever be this bad as this again.
I sometimes look back on the person I was, and wonder”What the crap was I thinking, to put up with all this for 30 years?
Thank God for LF!! When we know better, we DO better.
ITS very very hard to cut off your own flesh and blood
, but we had to do it, Oxy had to do it, lots of us have had to. Its survival. I haa massive clear out a week ago, and threw out everything that reminded me of these biatches, including the last 2 small chinese bowls,{my combined wedding gift from spath Ds,a set of four, ,95 cents each, price tag still on, still wrapped in newspaper, no card.}So, cost them A$2– each!! BIG DEAL, Id rathe r have had nothing.Also threw out all the freebie Xmas present books from Spath D one, still had “remaindered copy, or “not for resale”on them.. Even wrapped in used Xmas paper!
As you can her, Im STILL angry havent got over it yet,and NO I dont feel forgiving at all.They and their Dad put me thru years of HELL, I can quite see how all this crap can make you as sick as EB was. WHAT GUTS AND BALLS she has!!!
Spaths are totally heartless, no conscience, we will NEVER get closure, NC is our ONLY closure.
I realy believe now its genetic, as both my daughters had a loving childhood, and were both showered with every good thing.Their dad was sober for almost 10 years, and was a good loving and involved dad during most of their childhood,, so I dont blame him either.
Thank God for our loving new Iranian “kids”, they give us so much joy and love, and appreciation, which Dave and I NEVER had with my spath Ds.
With jerkwads like the hot guy you were tempted with, truly they are incapable of loving sex, all they use us for is receptacles for their sperm, so they may as well jerk off!
Thats why they are JERKS!!
Lots of Love, Mama Gem.XX
geminigirl,
It’s hard that there can be no actual closure to these toxic relationships because the spaths are unavailable to explain themselves, their pathological lying barring us from knowing the full truth of our reality with them. I would love to have answers to questions that I have but my h-spath won’t provide me with the truth – having a deep, revealing conversation is hopeless, futile. It bothers me that I won’t know the true goings-on in my married life because the h-spath won’t divulge the truth. You’re right – they are totally heartless. We’ve all been hurt.
Perhaps they should do a sequel to the programme that Donna will be on, called,
“What the —Bleep— did I give birth to?” LOL!
Love,
Mama gem.XX
Delta: you are so correct! I agree! Probably would be the finishing touch on me!
Oxy: I used that skillet and it worked!
Gemini: You are right on receiving the same set of trials till we get it right!
Thanks everyone for your help, advice and understanding! And skillet! 🙂 My gut told me the same things! I listened to you all and to my gut feelings this time! And you know what? It was fairly easy to distance myself! I followed through with it and he has given up on me! Backed off, left me alone and I am fine! Thanks again LF for being there for me! 🙂
And I learned something that I am able to practice more and more as these types of N/P’s roll into my life. After the initial shock wears off and I determine they are P/N’s, according to the training, I’ve received thru the books/LF blog, I no longer see them as handsome, charming etc. I see them as predators and that is the primary focus! I love it! It’s freedom!!!!
Dear TB,
WONDERFUL GF, TOWANDA FOR YOU!!!!! You know it is just like a lion or a lioness might be “beautiful” from a distance but when you are looking down the THROAT OF ONE they somehow don’t have the same “beauty” they did from a safe vantage point! All you can see is UGLY AND SHARP TEETH and almost feel them ripping into your flesh! I’m glad the skillet helped, it has helped both Henry and me but we DO have flat heads now. His is flat on top and mine is flat on both sides! LOL (((Hugs))))