Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
Jell:
Girl…..I went back for 28 years…….we all do it…..because we all want to believe the best……turn this into a lesson for you….because it’s there….
And let me tell you……each time you have an outbreak….you’ll develop the anger….if NOT sooner.
I was given a gift by the S too……but i’ll tell ya……
I’ll take Herpes over a Cluster B….ANY day……
I’ve had good luck with dr. Bronners mint soap and I add tea tree oil to it…..use that to wash…..and at first ‘feeling’ of an outbreak….I pop acyclovir (sp).
But…..funny thing is…..I haven’t had an outbreak since he’s been gone…..
And BOY….do i remember my last outbreak…..it was bad……the worst I’ve ever had. Stress will bring it on….
And it just so happened to be the same time he wanted to reconcile……or at least have sex……
So this time, I ever so kindly obliged!!!!
Maybe he was left with the ‘back atcha’ gift he brought home……….
Only……EVERYWHERE!!!!!! I cheered him on, to be ‘amorous’ and ‘adventurous’ with me that night! Take me darling….ALL of me……
FUCKER!
Isn’t that called re-gifting!
That was the last time we were together……I went NC after that!
There was NO way I’d ever sleep with him again…..who knows where that landed up. I have visions of lesions on his face/lips…throat…..
Hi…..I’m sociopath…..wanta kiss me?
Don’t be hard on yourself……the best part is….you understand it now.
Remember too that these crazy loons LOVE to play games and playing two (or more) love interests against each other is a real turn on for them. (SiC)
My S ex just really gets off playing two lovers against each other and pissing the current one living with her off. She “thought she was going to get a high in April when we had planned to go up North to see her. She is curently in a Lesbian relationship and has been for 14 years.When she found out me and my wife would be going up there her first comment was” Oh good! Having you come in and (so& so) comes in.. that should really piss off “Lucky”(her current house slave) She played this horrid game on me when I was her houseboy in 83 & 93. She broke my heart both times. I wouldn’t visit her now if she paid me a million dollars. I may have an ounce of jealousy for the current houseslave but mainly just alot of PITTY. That woman is killing herself to please my ex. When a relationship is that one sided it can’t end well for the one doing all the giving. When I was with her I gave and gave and was so depressed because I never felt like I was getting anything back and I wasn’t. You have to ask yourself what the heck am I jealous about? Being SH*T on?
While I can understand the concept of forgiveness being a way to let go and move forward I really feel that in some cases you just can’t forgive. Perhaps instead fo forgiving our tormenter we should work instead on forgiving ourselves. I feel that I have let myself and people I love down for believing in and continuing in a relationship with this man who consistantly hurt me and mine. I have been told that I am only guilty of having compassion. However at some point I feel that I should have seen him for the monster he is…others seemed to see it so plainly…what on earth is wrong with me? Even now, after almost a year, he can worm his way into me…when I hear of something bad happening to him I still want to help. The only thing really stopping me is how he treated my son…keeping him safe…when I should by now just say…sucks to be you. I still feel stupid and quite gullible inside. I really feel that I need to forgive myself but seem unable to find the way.
amyc: sometime self forgiveness comes through re engaging in life.
It comes to us through the action of doing good things for ourselves, seeing what we need to, and protecting our own.
we sometimes shame ourselves for our lack of resources and understanding, and when we act as if not ashamed, by doing good for ourselves – we forgive ourselves.
make sense?
amyc, i feel like im about where you are right now. I was on another site last night asking my usual stupid question as to why i would sacrifice sex(he was totally impotent) for over 6 years and be insanely loyal to the s who was far from loyal to me. In essence im beating myself up over spilled milk, all i can do is move forward and be glad i guess ididn’t catch anything from him as someone abouve posted if he was able to perform i think i would have stopped him. The pretend sex we had was so fucked up (sorry to be blunt) that i now think i have issues just around sex in general but im sure i’ll be fine if the right one cmoes along. I am taking accountablility for going back hundreds of times over the years even thoug h i was seeking trauma prog, shrinks, hypnotherapy anything to keep me from giong back but im starting to forgive myself and move on from it. Time and little contact have been my salvation and i can’t even muster up being pissed with him anymore. His crackhead daugher just called and i’ve even stopped being kind to her. Im finally putting me first for a change, got a little detoured lately helping a detective (married to an n) but im back on track , he went back and i know why and how hard it is to leave. All i can do is fix me finally getting this crap after years of diversions and trying to fix and help so many people all of who are still out there and could care less about me. I was raised in alkie home and tried so hard to hep and fix my mom who died of alcohlism at 50 so i know why i became so codependent. So much easier to fix others than take care of ourselves. Im finally trying to change old behaviours and spending alot of alone time and it’s ok. I was reading some of the earlier posts and some of the horrific childhoods alot of people on here have had and i was cryingmyself thinking about my dad who passed last july, i didn’t ge t the relationship i so craved with him . I was thinking did he really love me like everyone has tol dme and i think he did he just didn’t know how to ever show me. Talk is so cheap and alot of lessons to be learned, tell my sons how much i love them even if it is uncomfortable with my older son, do it anyway. None of us asked going in the the disordered to be treated like crap ver y much the same way id din’t start drinking hoping to be an alcoholic but that was the end result. Accept, learn and move on to greater things. love kindheart
Kindheart; Talk is indeed CHEAP for these liars. That’s why they do so much of it. And as a healthy 52 yr old male I can agree with you that alot of these fakes are lousy in bed. My S woman had sex one and a half times with me over a span of 4 months. I say one was a half time because that time only consisted of alot of foreplay on my part to her. I was 26 the first time I met her, 36 the second time and i was the most sexually frustrated lover on the planet while I was with her. For her sex is non existent but the game playing and head games that leads up to sex is her strong suit. She does it to a fault! Since she will bed down anyone-male or female I wouldn’t say she is a prick tease. She is an equal opportunity destroyer! I think she would bed down a knot in tree if there were some cash sitting inside it. At least make you think your going to sometime have sex. But she never walked the walk.
I believe now I stayed with her out of the pursuit myself. Trying to win her love when she was obviously incapable of showing it to me or anyone else. i told her all the way up to the last time ispoke with her that I was angry with her for never really giving me a chance to fall in love with me. I know now that she is a sociopath. She’s probably never felt love so how could she show me?
Renew, i was thinking about the detective i spent the better part of last year trying to help with his s/n wife and i remember him telling me alot of intimite things and i was like ” be sure to tell the therapist” kind of thing as i think alot of their intimacy issues are such telltale signs of their disorder. He told me that they did not have sex on their honeymoon night , nor the next night and i was pretty shocked to say the least. Now i know we can come up with all kinds of excuses if we want to but lets be honest, that was a redflag and that was when they were very young, still same crap 23 years later, he isn’t seeing it quite like i do mentioning how she likes to punish for months. Sure is amazing when we see them in action like in this mans case. She’s still got him brainwashed but he is seeing inklings of the light here and there and as in AA, you can’t not know what you know so he will have to find his own way but he sure was blowing me away with some of her actions. I don’t think anyone who has not been through what we’ve been through could make this crap up and they are all so boring and predictable when you watch them, not at all what i thought in the beginning, the excitment and adreneline for the challenge of what. A big loser and im so glad i see it now. Awful to watch others being tortured by these creatures and i know now what an old male friend meant when i was in the throws of it, when he said “it isn’t easy being your friend” i do get it now. love kindheart
Thanks for the kind words and support Kindheart! I am nor have i ever been a chauvanist pig. You won’t find a more sensitive guy than me(Not to toot my own horn or anything) I tried to reason that she was ruined by the previous men in her life because she claims she was raped 4 times in her life. But knowing how permiscuous she comes across sometimes to get what she wants, I wonder now if she put herself in those vulnerable postions to be raped(If that’s really what happened). All I know is that she never saw me as attractive even when I was in top shape in my late 30’s and she was still 15 years older than me.I am not overtly handsome but I am not a ugly dog either. Just middle of the road. Although my wife now thinks I am the cat’s meow and she is all that counts!
I read someplace here that sociopaths do not see people as attractive nor unattractive. They only see people as opportunities. Knowing now that she is N and S I believe that is what happened with me. She never really wanted me-not ever. She only wanted what I could do for her or get her monetarily.
yes i remember vividly when i was in my matrimonial home and i first me the s he had a tour of my home and got some details and commented ” you are very marketable” and i thought wha t a strange statment to make. That first night i asked him what had just happened with his last wife(over 20 yrs younger) as i was still trying to fig out my own marriage falling apart and his exact words were ” I just didn’ t like her anymore” and i literally laid in bed that night and could hardly blink thinking he must have meant that differently than he worded it etc. i could not wrap my mind around it and then the rest is history. He also said that first night that he could be a lving Nightmare and i thought oh he has a little temper etc. man was i in for a shock its just that when you’ve never met it you don’t know what it is. Amazing now to look back and the lack of empathy in everything he said that night i was just so in a bad place myself to protect myself. love kindheart
Renew, as for the detective bacause you are a male also , yes he’s very emotional and sensitive, very good looking but has to be told over and over by many people what a good guy he is and i chalked it up to her demeaning him and i really think it is the case. He dances , sings competitively , does all the cleaning, cooking etc. buys her a jag, moves walls he says and nothing makes her happy. I tried to get him to see that that is not what makes a person happy but he’s too far gone and it’s very sad to see how disturbed he has been , all i could say was im really sorry. He’s been in this for the better part of 23 years and has never had any other relationships where he was on reseiving end so i could see he needed lots of help as he was uncomfortable receiving making a huge deal about little things that werent’ much. Sad to see someone who doesn’t deserve to be treated that way but nothing i can do and i know this thankfully from my own experience. He’s been on this roller coaster for a long time and my feeling is he won’t get off until she shoves him off but i do feel for him. It does make you really pissed when you see all the wonderful people getting treated like dirt, at times im tempted to try and get even with the s and pull a fast one on him and then i remind myself as to the only thing that really pisses him off and that is complete and total ignoring of him. Im finally getting there , to that point i never thought would come where i just don’t give a rats ass about him anymore. nada , boring, who are you anyway? you werent’ worth the agony as i was told in beginning all kinds of nice things i’d like to vent with but that gives him attention right so this smart girl says , git as he was talked to me like some animal, git lost loser .