Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
jell, my n/p would tak e attention from a harem of bottom of the barrel women just because he is an attention whore. Everything and everyone is game to these types, no particular preference whomever is vulnerable to his bullshit. Im laughing thinking of one of his favorite lines he’s say you know ‘ you’r almost perfect” gee never could get it right could i. Once i remember taking a girlfriend to a wedding with me and stopping by his home and i have a beautiful black dress, thought i looke d pretty dam hot just to get his stupid approval and all he coul d find wron with me was ” your legs are too white” and i even let that bother me. Last night i don’t know if it was the ativan i took to sleep or what but i laid in bed for quite some time imagining me getting him over here and sitting him down using the see who has the most balls tactic as i know what a coward he is and i thought of more horrible things he had done to so many wives , his children , just so many terrible things i knew about him that not even he knows and i wante dto let him have it with both barrels but then in the morning i thankfully came to my senses and realized he’d probably enjoy it and it wouldnt have any real impact on him as terrible as the things he did were. Guess i haven’t quite worked through all the anger yet . I have so many fantasys of how i’d like him to pay and i think it’s pretty normal it’s just not acting on them that is the secret. And you are right they are not real men and i remember thinking that so many times , what the hell happened to real men anyway. Your dad knew th e difference . We should all be listening to the song “Rea l Love” by Mary j. blige and realizing we never ever had a real love. take care kh
Haha–you made me laugh with the white legs comment. I knew when he would be getting antsy or wanting someone different because he would start making some negative comment about me. In fact, the last day I talked to him, he said that he would send me money so I could go tanning because I was so white (I can’t help that I live in the north with three months of summer-lol). Seriously though he would start saying really hurtful things to me, deliberately trying to tear me down. Sometimes I could ignore them but it made me wonder if another man would feel the same about me. It was definitely a way to make me feel insecure about myself and it worked a LOT. When he would leave, I was afraid to date, afraid that I was not attractive, too fat, too clingy, too many emotional problems, too everything according to him. Then of course when he was wooing me back in, I was the greatest person in the world. He would tell me it was his problem, I never really disagreed with him, mind you, but the damage had been done.
Gem,
It has to be so rough when it is your own flesh and blood. There is no getting out of the way with that. I feel for you. Keep on believing that you are going to be ok. I am sending good vibes your way.
Today, as I woke up from a nap, I am stuck with an ill feeling in my stomache.
My dream was of ‘him’…someone I haven’t dreampt about for AT LEAST 3 months. The dream took place in my bedroom with a conversation being held between his brother in law and myself where I was ‘spilling the beans’ about all the shit that no one knew about. My ex was in the room with us, although he didnt’ try to stop me from telling everything that went on…he was just kinda irritated. I sensed his irritation and also sensed his brother in laws irritation as he seemed to not want to know all I was telling. His brother in laws response was this…very matter of factly…’you two didnt have a relationship, you just were REALLY good friends.’
This has been unsettling to me as my ex told me over and over again how I was his ‘best friend’ or ‘the best friend he has ever had.” I think about that and what comes to mind is this…HELL YEAH I was the best friend he ever had! I was THE ONLY friend he had while we dated for 3.5 years. It occured to me that the reason he had no friends was because he USED them all and discarded them too! Any ‘friends’ he spoke of were either drug buddies of his ‘past’ or his ONLY friend he grew up with…who my ex slept with his girlfriend, causing the relationship to end…
I have thought and thought tonight about all the shit he did…and how he gave me SO many hints as to what he was doing! Our last little get away, as he was in a drunken stupor, he said to me ‘you know, Ive pulled alot of shit on you…ALOT of shit, but Ive NEVER loved someone like I love you…NEVER!”
I have NOT forgiven him for all he’s done…mostly for the emotional and psychological damage he’s created. I can look at the material things he took from my house and chalk them up as him being an ass. I can look at the tantrums and chalk them up to him being very immature. I can even look at some of the blatantly STUPID things he did…like ask me to buy him a motorcycle…and chalk them up to his real stupidity.
Somehow though, at this time, Im not willing to forgive or forget the BLATANT lies he told me…even though I can logically say HE has a problem that has NOTHING to do with me. I wont excuse his ‘problem’ away like that because he has damaged ME…and Im worth more than that.
Hi, jell, Thanks so much for your encouraging words. Actually, the longer Im in total NC with my spath daughter, the easier its getting.Whats happening though is that old memories of dreadful, hurtful things that she and her spath sister have done to me,{mostly before I met my present husband,} are surfacing, and its like wave after wave of acute pain, dread,and anguish I have to go thru. Then just when I think that the worst memory is over, another one surfaces. I think its Gods way of getting me to deal with, process, and move on, but its exhausting and draining andupsetting. I seem to veer from rage, anger, and guilt for feeling this way about my flesh and blood, from having feelings of lovefor them{not much by now, I have to say I think theyve killed most of my love for them stone dead. Then round and round I go again, trying vainly to find SOME good in them, crying for their wasted sick lives, for the dear little girls they were. I know these litle girls are DEAD and gone, and wont be coming back, ever.Is all this normal? And whats normal? And thereis a hidden part of me ,deep inside, that wants to survive without these horrible people theyve become, and wants them to PAY and SUFFER for all they have put me thru in pure anguish!!.I hope Im making progress, but its one step forward
5 steps back! Love, gem,XX
Today was a really rough day. Got a voicemail from the spath. He found out that I know about the other woman, that I had turned off the electric account for his apartment.(I will have to eat that bill) and of course, it tried to turn it all on me. I am “full of bullshit”, he isn’t doing anything and people always talk about him, etc, etc, etc. The funny part is that he doesn’t even realize that his very behavior is what incriminates him. He wants me to take the blame for what he is doing wrong. I realize this but it still hurts. I know by now though that this is his way of deflecting his own guilt over what he has done. It is always someone else’s fault for him because then he doesn’t have to look at his behaviour. I don’t take it on like I used to, I actually would think that I had done something wrong. Now I know that there is something wrong with him. He has no real heart or soul.
sociopathic traits list? someone posted a list in the last few days , i think it was from, women who love sociopaths. anybody know which thread it is on??
EB:
I read some of what you posted about the things you ‘know’ about him and ‘what he will tell you’ and I loved it…Im gonna do my own inventory…
I know that he has such shitty credit, that he cant even finance a car…
I know that he has a child he’s never seen because he was just screwing his childs mother and got her pregnant…
I know he’s 20 thousand dollars in debit over childsupport he’s never paid…
I know he still lives with his parents because he cant afford even an apartment…
I know all the stylish clothes he ownes are from me…
I know he was the ‘burnout loser’ in highschool…
I know he is very insecure…
I know he went away and his son resents him for that…
I know he is an addict…
I know he has NO friends…
I know he throws tantrums like an 8 year old…
I know he manipulates and uses everyone he knows…
What he will tel you…
Is that his credit is ‘screwed up’ because of a time long long ago when he and his ex girlfriend lived together and the bills were in his name but SHE didnt pay them…
Is that his child he’s never seen has been unseen because her mother REFUSES to allow her daughter any contact…and its better this way because his daughter has a dad already…
Is that the child support he is backed up on isnt his fault because he TRIED to pay it, but the mother didnt want any money from him…and he knew NOTHING about how much he owed…
Is that he lives at his parents (at 36) STILL because he is ‘saving up money’ to buy a house…when really, he cant afford to rent anything by himself, let alone have to live BY HIMSELF…
Is that he likes to ‘keep up with the trends”…bullshit…
Is that he was ‘friends with everyone”…except he ONLY hung out with the burnout losers…because they ‘didnt expect anything from me’…
Is that he’s very confident…and people mistake it for cockiness…
Is that he and his son have a WONDERFUL relationship…except his son talked to me about things before his dad…
Is that he HAD a problem with cocaine at one time, but he doesn’t anymore…now, mushrooms, thats a differnet story…
Is that he had to separate himself from his ‘friends’ because they were no good for him…but the people he associates with now are THE SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE…just alot younger…
Is that he gets his ‘feelings hurt’ and ‘disappointed’ and ‘sometimes doesnt know how to react’ to these things…
Is he fights very hard every day to keep the ‘good person’ in the front and not allow the ‘bad person’ to surface…
I hate him…I really do.
I don’t remember that particular posts…scary that I’ve posted so much!!
Its been a while since I comment but I’ve been reading posting everyday. Its been a year since i met the s and there is still so much hurt in my heart. The s called me saturday an told me that he hasn’t done anything to me and that i shouldnt be mad at him, its unbelievable that this person can really think that he hasnt done me wrong! I’m so hurt by what this person has done to me it seem like the hurt will never go away. This person took everything he could from me lied and con me out of me an my children money, ask me too marry him with another woman ring to get 8000 dollars from me, used my atm and withdrawn thousands of dollars this is just the half of what he did not to mention the woman I caught in his bed that he said was his daughter. Please tell me how I will ever get over this hurt. I answer the phone not in hopes that he was coming back to me but to just hear what lies he had to say it was like pour salt on open wounds. I know he’s back with his ex-wife, that was his plans while he was using me, The hurt is that it was all a game, I honestly did love him.