Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
Dear Gem, that’s for sure! Funny thing is though, that my half of the gene pool is the most polluted I think! He is just like my P-sperm donor, only not as successful at covering up his crimes or getting away with them. LOL
I’m not sure why, given a lot of things, I didn’t turn out as bad or worse than the P-son—I can see where I could have done so.
Oh, well, my old back hurts from all the work I’ve done today so I’m gonna go get comfy in my comfy chair and read a while. Nothing on the tube tonight except junk.
Babe,
Nice analogy chica! I like it! I’m struggling with the concept of CHOOSING evil. What the hell would be the POINT? What “FUN” is there in hurting other people? Being so calculating? I don’t get it.
I just don’t get it. Can’t they also CHOOSE to be nice and isn’t that why we get the love bombing and the mask and all? I’d like to know why they inevitably choose evil!
Babe, I have to comment, you’ve come a LONG LONG way!!! AWESOME!
LL
Hi, LessonLearned,
The seduction of a psychopath is powerful, part physical and part emotional.
I, too, fell for a powerful smile, a smooth baritone voice and a tall, muscular man.
The physical part was over powering for me. Which adds to my missing him now.
But his effect wasn’t for everyone. I see this in retrospect. Many people would look at him and immediately have his ‘number’. My adult daughters did.
I did not.
My neighbor did not. He spent a lot of time ‘visiting’ her.
Some men get him. Others do not.
The people who do not ‘get’ him seem to fit a profile: smart, hard-working, trusting, naive, helpful.
So, his effect on you is targeted. He knows who he can get over on. And who he cannot.
Somehow seeing things that way may take the special out of your relationship. Because although he would like you to think that it was special. It truly was not.
Mama,
First of all, I’d like to say that with the newbies here, it is astounding to me how much growth I see, the advice given, in such a short time. You’re one of those too. I so appreciate your input. It humbles me. Thank you.
Having said that, you make such a great point. My daughters and my son’s hated this man. Whenever he “attempted” to have a relationship with them, it was so obviously fake and he gave the idea, implication that his children were somehow better than mine. He bought them gifts on occasion, but that’s about it. He spathed them as soon as he walked in the door and he targeted my most outgoing child, the one who hated him the most. She actually was so pissed at him, she pushed him once, another time she about blew him off my back porch last June (last time I ever allowed him in my home) while he sat on the porch and ripped me a new emotional asshole…with the window open. He was so into obliterating me, while I sat in silence, that she could no longer stand it…when she told him off, he said to her, with the most evil look, “That’s only half of it little one…you have no idea what she’s done to me!”…EVERY single one of my friends hated him. HATED him, with the exception of acquaintances who didn’t have a clue, although some did and hated him too. he was also hated at work by his entire staff, including his boss.
But he has an extremely alcoholic neighbor who thinks he’s all that….probably because he sucks up to that neighbor because the neighbor has plenty of alcohol, connections, superficial friends, money, a pool table and a hot tub. Bastard.
It’s the only “real” friendship he has maintained. I was absolutely smitten and thought everyone thought he was wonderful.
That part of me still lives within. It hurts a lot.
The only people I ever met that knew him were those he worked with. One of them became one of my dearest friends and slowly told me about his lies….the lies he was telling to me, about when he said he was at work, when he was not…the lies he told to the employees, the pity play about his divorce, that she knew was a lie….
I wish I could move. I really do.
I’m sorry, this has been such a hard day for me. I was very triggered today. Being here and having input from other bloggers is very helpful (as well as my new email friends!). I’m so grateful, because it really does help me get through times like this.
Mama, mine also had a smooth as velvet baritone voice….oh my….he could up it or lower it …..it was one of the sexiest things about him….but mine wasn’t tall, he was short, about five foot one or two (never got to measure his height, but he said five foot four and I KNEW that wasn’t true lol)….
Other women (including Ms. Star here who has seen his pic) think I’m better looking, but it’s amazing to me how our perceptions of one man can be all that we see while all the rest is ignored…..but obviously it wasn’t enough to maintain the relationship was it, Mama? 🙂
Thank you……for your valuable input!
LL
Kathleen –
“I’ve been married three times and I’ve had a lot of love affairs in my life, but I’d never experienced anything like that. It just took me over. No matter what he did to me, no matter how logically I knew that this was a bad thing that was destroying me and my life, I couldn’t get control of it. I’d do anything for him.”
I know you wrote this about a year ago, but I have only just read it now. This is an exact description of my life too….
” background of not being acknowledged by your father, not getting any return for your love for him, not getting any response to your efforts to be close to him, all this made you vulnerable to the sociopath. Bingo. That’s exactly right.”
My life, again.
“KH, I don’t know why your father behaved like that toward you, but you deserved better. Particularly from a father, who had responsibility to support you not only financially, but emotionally too. These unmet needs are the result of neglect of the child that you were. I don’t know what was wrong with hm, but it doesn’t really matter. What does matter is the fact that so much of your life has been shaped by this emotional starvation, and what you’re going to do about it.”
Still my life….. (man I sure am channeling a few of you today!!!!)
“It’s important that you understand that this wasn’t ever about you. That his inadequacies as a parent wounded you, but he was the inadequate parent, not you. If you could go back and take over for him, and give you all the recognition and love and attention you needed, things would be a lot different for you. You needed a parent who was overjoyed at your existence and committed to bringing you up as a happy, confident and self-reliant child.”
Hmmmmmmmmm….and STILL my life….
Aeylah –
“my father is a full blown N who has never approved of me and continues to try to control me with his own brand of manipulation. My relationship with him is always walking on egg shells, as I never know if he will berate me or be kind to me when I talk to him or see him. ”..and I’ve been trying to seek approval from him all my life.”
And (here we go again) STILL my life….
Guess all of that explains why I choose not to see him anymore.
LL –
RE: your son’s pink hair and other irritations/embarrassments. Honey I don’t think that you actually ARE embarrassed per se. You just don’t strike me as someone who would ordinarily buy into someone else’s “stuff”; or who would even think that it WAS an embarrassing thing for him to have pink hair. You are too accepting and level headed a person for that. I think there’s more to this. IMHO this is your depression speaking to you – so is the overwhelming irritation you are feeling and the shut-down in your usual amounts of empathy.
I know when I was in the grip of the worst of it, post-spath, things that I would not have usually even have noticed, bugged and annoyed me. I felt cross and crotchety for no good reason at all sorts of things; and then felt guilty that I felt that way. I didn’t feel as though I gave a hoot what happened to anyone else around me because I was drowning so deep in my own muck and misery; and, of course, because I am actually a decent and caring person, I would then feel distressed by my apparent lack of care or compassion for others.
That’s not what it was with me, though – and I don’t think that’s what it is with you either.
Four little letters babe – PTSD. It lasts longer than you might think it will and it does more damage to us than we initially notice. Four years down the track (in 6 days’ time) and I am STILL reeling from some of the ongoing effects. I am no longer trauma-bonded to the creeep (and can honestly say that I have NOT been for at least the past two years, if not longer) – but the collateral damage to my physical health and to my emotional state of mind is still horrendous. Go easy on yourself, okay? It’s early days yet, for you. Until you get yourself right again, you really don’t have anything to give to others (not without killing yourself, anyhow), nor should you be trying to or feeling guilty about not being able to. It’s NORMAL in an ABNORMAL situation like ours. xx
robxsykobabe –
Please, please, please, please change your locks. xx (Please?)
Hi everyone:
Just wondering if someone could share their thoughts on the ‘difference’ between what these A-Holes did/do versus what we did/do to contribute to the demise of the relationship.
I am quite introspective and really have tried to see how I had contributed to the ‘problems’ and what I need to do differently (minus the obvious fact of staying away from whack jobs). I can say with 100 percent certainty that I was a great person to him. That being said, I also have “flaws” as well…right? Im human.
One of my flaws is that I can ‘cop an attitude” when irritated, hurt, upset, frustrated, ect. I can speak in a rude tone. When I get angry (I mean REALLY angry) I say things I should NOT say. I also have pretty bad PMS…
So as I reflect back on this ‘relationship’, I try to empathize with HIM regarding MY behavior, which at times, could be challenging. I know this…I am human however, I am NOT blaming myself.
Could it not be said then that MAYBE this happened because of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and Im lookign for ‘reasons’ to BLAME him?
I dont think so…I KNOW what I experienced. Then I think ‘maybe IM fooling myself about MY OWN issues.” Maybe IM in denial about ME? No?
What I am sure of is this…I was not conning, manipulative, deceitful, INTENTIONALLY mean, using, mooching, and whatever else you can think of. Maybe my ‘fault’ in this is I DID hve a poor attitude at times…and I DO have severe PMS…and I CAN use a rude tone…so what separates me from him then?
Am I comparing apples to oranges here? My ‘reputation’ is NOT poor, negative, mean, etc. I am VERY well thought of (known to be a ‘tough cookie’ to some, but always ‘generous’ and ‘a good person’).
Insights?
Is is also possible that he IS telling the truth about ‘pushing” him to the point and place where he went? It might be…however, I consistently go back to this ‘pattern’ with him. I think to myself…
“So, if I was ‘good’ then he wouldn’t of ‘had’ to ‘go there’? If I was ‘nicer’ (regardless of what issues I may have been going through at the time) he wouldn’t have been so mean? If I ‘ate more’ he would have been attracted to me?”
WWWHHHAAATTTT!!! NO WAY! So him ‘loving me’ was conditional…OK! If I made it ‘easy’ on him, REGARDLESS OF his actions, then we would have gotten along?
Gimme a g.d., mother f*&^%n break! (there’s that tourrettes 🙂 ) That even SOUNDS crazy!
Robx – Large boink needed ((((BOINK))) No No No. It was NOT about you. It was HIM.
Listen to yourself…you have the answer really ‘I can say with 100 percent certainty that I was a great person to him’.
You could have bent over backwards and jumped through hoops wearing a clowns outfit, it would NOT have made any difference believe me.
Today you are having a blip, as we all do, and trying to analyse and make sense of your situation.
We can never compare ourselves to them…..they have no conscience. Game over.
So chin up, chest out and remember it was NOT you 🙂
Candy:
Right…right..riggggggggggggh! Its JUST a blip today…
Need…to…remember…he’s………………..sick.
Thank you
RobsX, The last line of your above post is the sanest of all.
When we are stuck in the self-doubt, and wondering if it was something WE did, we are wavering between denial and bargaining. (Read Kathleen Hawks article’s in the archives,”How Do We Heal”.) If I can find a reason it was MY fault, then I can control the outcome. I can fix my relationship, if I only behave well enough. I can have what I want, if I manage it right. Can you see how that is self-defeating?
Of course you got irratable and snappy! Who wouldn’t? You were supporting a no-load lazy F— who had no respect for your boundrys.
I was an enraged B–ch in the end. My mistake was in thinking that I could punish him into good behavior. That was how I contributed to the dysfunction. A spath does what a spath does, and there is no changing him.
I had this same kind of vicious cycle dynamic in my relationship with Spath. If only I was nicer, he wouldn’t have to leave and go party for three days while I tried to put the rent money together. Yeah, right. But I didn’t end the relationship. I continued thinking I could fight my way to a victory, in the form of his securing a steady job, helping me with bills, quit abandoning me at the worst times, quit playing his mind f—— games, and treat me with respect.
Every time he took off and I took him back, I contributed to the trauma bond. It was so predictable, but so (almost impossible) to break the cycle.
When he had finally used me up, literally, he left for good.
I no longer had a house he could live in for free. I no-longer had a car to run him around in, and even though he presented me with an ultimatum about sex (I wouldn’t put out, anymore) I said not no, but “HELL NO!” and that was it. He was gone.
It was fashioned as an attempt to lay the onus on me, (as well as get a peice of tail…he would have left, anyway, I didn’t have a house….) but he had played this out over and over again without even attempting to explain why he was leaving when the rent was due and I was being threatened with eviction…So this sex reason was a new addition to the game. That DID baffle me for a while, but I see it clearly for what it is, now.
I hope this helps a bit.