Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
Yes LL,
I read that you have compassion for women you don’t know and dismiss that I knew them very well. And you continue to put words in my mouth, things I did not write nor think. So yes, in light of your stated empathy for the nest of spaths my spath ganged with, Gray rock it is.
ps Blaming others for “triggering” is scapegoating. No one can read another’s mind and thus be held accountable for another’s unspoken thoughts.
Katy,
Compassion for women I don’t know? I don’t understand what you’re referring too.
You said, “So yes, in light of your stated empathy for the nest of spaths my spath ganged with, Gray rock it is”.
I can’t assume to know what that means, Katy. If you’re referring to OW’s, I’m sorry this is where you and I part ways. I DO have compassion for those who were involved with my exP. They were as bs’d as I was with my last ex. I won’t apologize for that compassion. NO ONE should apologize for being a victim of a spath, even though they need to take responsibility for their part.
“ps, blaming others for “triggering” is scapegoating. No one can read another’s mind and thus be held accountable for another’;s unspoken thoughts”
this is true. So what puts you in the position to assume or imply my motives or intent with what you write??
Katy, I think there is A LOT of unspoken anger and hatred towards OW’s. That is sad. Because, really, in the end, this is what a spath would want, to create divisions. I wrote what I did to share, not to create divisions.
Congratulations. your hatred of nest of spaths that your spath ganged with, is successful.
LL
Lesson.
I don’t hate the ow. I don’t even hate my spath. Takes too much to remember to hate. But I do name them for their behavior and I will never submit to them. I know how I feel. I know what I think. I know what was done to me. I know how my life changed. I know the healing of self responsibility. I know ME. By logic, you claim to know my Unspoken Feelings??? Amazing!!!
LL, I was critized. I responded. You have taken my reflections of MYSELF and changed the meanings as if it was directed at you. It was NOT.
My Observation of behavior is NOT the same as assuming motives. Again. I NEVER assume motives. I ask or I have accepted YOUR declarations of motives as written in past posts.
Your last line, pretty snarky. Those spaths nearly murdered me. Again, I don’t hate them, but I don’t feel compassion for them either. I try to be realistic. They want me dead. I don’t have to assume anything, I was told to my face.
Now, gray rock?
OK!
Katy,
Your post assumed motives from past prior posts? That’s pretty amazing. I think there have been others here too who have mentioned feeling angry and out of line in their anger. I was no exception to that rule. I thought you hit Claudia awful hard when she accused Hens as well. She immediately apologized, (as I have) for her REACTION, and STILL you kept going on her. She was an OW too.
That’s not okay, katy. You don’t know what my motives were when I said the things I did. I apologized for them, but you still kept on. When I posted what I did today, it wasn’t like it was before. It wasn’t the REACTION it was before. it is something I GENUINELY struggle with. Other posters here gave me the respect with how I was feeling while you did not. You ASSUMED a motive, (given past posts) that wasn’t ACCURATE. It was UNFAIR and UNCALLED for. I spoke from my heart in what I was dealing with at the moment having been triggered the day before. If you had read the prior posts, you would have seen that.
Your assumptions about me were NOT okay, katy! It was flaming and hurtful. If you weren’t triggered yourself, why did you respond to it the way you did, assuming or implying a motive that was NOT so? Based on past freak outs? NOT okay, Katy.
I gave a lot of thought prior to posting. Even wondered if I should. THAT”S not okay either. I believe that one should be able to be HONEST about how they feel here, whether someone else likes it or not, is not MY issue! Apparently, it was not to YOUr liking. It doesn’t mean there was a motive, agenda, or anything else behind it.
How many have struggled here for similar reasons in truing to process their experiences? How many here can say they weren’t triggered by something or someone that sent them REELING? NONE.
It was no different for me. Your post hurt me. It was uncalled for. It was attacking, and hurtful.
Gray rock, katy.
Period.
LL,
sorry I have not been around to address some of your issues. Just really busy trying to get shit done for this trade show. I can make quick comments on my cell phone but for the long and deep conversations, I don’t want to try to do that on the cell.
But I will say a few things before I crash. STOP IT. You and Katy are completely misunderstanding each other. Just Kiss and Make up right now. NOW.
LL, you are misunderstanding your OWN feelings. you don’t know WHY you feel the way you do and you post here about how concerned you are about what the spath is doing but that isn’t the problem. BUT EVERYONE THINKS IT IS CUZ THAT’S WHAT YOU SAID IT WAS. Your problem is not what the spath thinks of you, it is what YOU think of you. HE IS JUST A SYMBOL OF WHAT YOU THINK OF YOU. He intended it to be that way. I COULD WRITE A BOOK ABOUT SPATHS AND HOW THEY ARE ADDICTED TO SYMBOLS. They are SHALLOW. They believe that what is symbolic is REAL. But symbols are just that: a surface, an imposter, a duplicate, a replacement for what is real.
LL, in your mind, you have very low self-esteem and what your spath did to you is symbolic of what you ALREADY BELIEVED ABOUT YOURSELF. Spaths are able to SEE your shame better than anyone, even you. And then they play that particular vulnerability.
When you talk about “WHY wasn’t I love-bombed?” you aren’t talking about him, you are talking about you. You are saying, “what’s wrong with me?” But nobody here gets it. I GET IT. I KNOW. I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM. JUST THAT I KNOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME. It has to do with my parents. I ACCEPT that I’m flawed in my thinking because of my parents’. Not really my thinking, it’s my FEELING.
You guys, Oxy, LL and Katy are all going off on the wrong tangent. It isn’t the spath that is bothering LL, or what he did, she is trying to figure out WHAT is wrong with HER.
LL, I’m not there yet, I can’t solve your problems. If anyone here has a DE-PROGRAMMING GUIDE FOR CHILDREN OF SOCIOPATHS/NARCISSISTS, (One Joy?) send it over.
So LL, you intuitively GET that SOMEONE on LF is going to give you the some insight. Because you received that before. So you post honestly.
Well to tell you the truth, your honest posts have been the source of many of my own insights. I won’t ask you to stop. I WILL tell you that they are sometimes very uncomfortable, but then, it’s that very discomfort that gets me thinking. And it gives me the AHA! moments that I look for.
I know I haven’t really given you any answers, I’m just so tired and overwhelmed right now. But, what I hope I have done is given you a different direction to think in. AND I hope that you and Katy can STOP getting angry at each other. It serves no purpose except that of the spaths.
Well, I hope I didn’t make things worse, I’m really tired, can’t really think straight tonight. Just really hate to see you going through all this unnecessary anguish.
Katy,
my spath and the crazy husband stealing neighbor fuck, want me dead too. who the hell cares. they are spaths. they live in a spath fantasy land. YES, quite often (i was going to say every once in a while , but the truth is QUITE OFTEN,), i WILL think of them and how OUTRAGEOUS it is. Not just them but other neighbors DESPISE me. Why? For thinking that I’m a “saint”. YES, that is their excuse. I think myself to be TOO GOOD. I TRY too hard to be a good person. HOW DISPICABLE IS THAT? Someone like that should be hung and quartered. (how do I make an angry emoticon?)
I’m so far from being a “saint” you can’t even imagine, but my spath “slandered” me with that! Can you beat that? whoops, I guess you probably can! Your spath targeted your goodness and integrity. He almost had you. Don’t let him win. NO MATTER WHAT.
Anyway, my point to you is only that you look past LL’s words in her posts and try to see the WHOLE picture. She is not just an OW or an abused wife. She has been through sexual abuse from her own parents. It’s not an excuse, it is an explanation for the DRAMA that she is re-living right now. It will take time, lots of it. She will get past it.
Well, I sit here and read this thread and wonder whether it is productive for me to enter in, It’s a quandry because I WANT to. I think I have something to offer, but you see, THESE ARE MY ISSUES, TOO. Yes, I get triggered by the OW thing, and the lying, cheating, selfish, cowardly avoidance, and absolute narcissism of a husband who betrays his wife, and for 10 years, LL. Ten years?
Like sands in an hour glass….so are the days of our lives.
I agree with Skylar. This IS NOT ABOUT HIM. THIS IS ABOUT YOU> This is about what you feel and think about yourself. I don’t know why, but I think you settled for this relationship, because you didn’t think you deserved any better. His wife settled for her relationshit, too. That’s her business.
I agrree, to some extent with Katy, too. I see you focussing on the trauma, to your own detriment. You re-victimize yourself. It’s a stick you beat yourself with.
I also think this whole wife vs. ow thing is part of what tripped you up. The man in the path was the skandolon…he was the satan you should have been telling to get behind thee.
He found your woundedness and tricked you into responding in a way that only furthar damaged you.
Is it possible that your becoming the OW was an attempt to solve an old trauma? You had already been the wife of a lying, cheating POS> So, in an effort to finally get what you wanted, you get involved with a lying ass cheat.
It’s time to look at your woundedness. Look inside.
You deserve to be loved. But YOU NEED TO RESOLVE THAT YOURSELF.
It’s not about a man, it’s about trauma and what it has done to you. It’s about healing and not getting tripped up. It’s not about letting our precious energy go down the toilett in drama and avoidance that focusses our energy on a POS, and more hurt and pain that just reinforces the trauma, while we try to convince ourselves that we are processing, anylisis paralysiss, and round and round we go and where we get off nobody knows and will you please pass the tea and by the way……You get my drift.
Every time you post about how victimized you were as the OW, My own ugly issues rear their heads and I feel a little pissed off. I have to re-group and realize we were all hurt, and that hurt is on the inside, and our own responsibility.
I do identify with the hurt and pain that led you into the relationshiT, however. The low self-steem, and woundedness. The missing love for yourself.
It’s a God shaped hole.
Don’t know where to post this, so I guess this is as good a place as any.
On Saturday, I spent three hours doing volunteer work at the Maritime Museum. Not many comers, so, having time on my hands, I read every peice of literature in the place. I learned about the Right Whale. I’ve always had a soft spot for whales.
Any way, the pregnant right whale migrates from the north to our coastal areas every Spring to calve, right off our shores.
They are an endangered species with only about 300 still living.
They are slow moving and gentle. Not in the least aggressive.
The whalers who killed hundreds of thousands of these gentle giants are the one’s who named them. These were the right whales to kill. They were targetted because they were slow and gentle.
Well, I was the right gal for several predators, too.
Just an interesting analogy I thought I’d share.
Say a prayer for the right whales.