Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
Kim,
No you don’t come off as attacking, you never do. In fact you are so often the sane voice that calms the unruly masses!
I’m also in the trauma bond introspection phase. It always feels like I’m on the cusp of a new break through but can’t seem to make the leap of putting it into action.
Claudia,
I feel like I won in so many ways against the spath.
Even when I was with him and he tried to denigrate me, all he managed to do is make himself look bad in my eyes. Maybe it’s my narcissism that saved me. I just think too highly of myself in certain ways. LOL!
I remember thinking, jeez if I ever start to feel bad about myself all I have to do is compare myself to him and suddenly, I don’t seem to be all that dumb. LOL!
Part of the reason his strategy failed is because he used the pity ploy against me. It is my greatest weakness and he knew it. But the pity ploy has a negative side for the spath: you can’t admire someone you find pathetic. So in a way, Claudia, I used him as a way to build strength, by always having to carry him. It’s only now 1.5 years out of the relationshit , that I realize how TIRED I am and also that I was running on a tread mill, getting nowhere. It is depressing to find this out after 25 years.
I know what you mean about feeling like you are on the brink of a breakthrough.
I just realized yesterday that my brother got beat with a belt for leaving me alone that night he went to the party at the neighbors house. That is the one and only time, that I know of. I remember hearing the licks and hearing him cry out. I remember being very upset about it and asking my Mom why. She said it was because he was gambling, and I accepted that. I just put it together, yesterday.
I think that was probably pretty traumatic for me too, because my parents were not physically abusive. I probably got three spankings in my life.
It is interesting that these things reveal themselves to us when we become ready for them. Not before, and also, the more attention you pay to your healing journey the more the revelations come.
Remember me telling the story about going home to Washington State to visit my parents for the first time in 7 years, and they left me sitting in a bar for 4 hours, because my mom wanted to do her grocery shopping?
That happened at the time I was in therapy, and I had been struggling with grasping that my parents weren’t perfect. I couldn’t remember much in the way of abuse, by them, so I couldn’t figure out how I got the way I was.
Then I saw my mom’s emotional abandonment of me, sitting in that bar, waiting for her to put away her grocerys.
When I remembered that, a couple of weeks ago, and wrote about it here, it brought up a lot of sadness and I had a slight melt down, remember?
So, yes, I too feel like I’m getting close to something.
Sky,
I’m constantly amazed by your insight and introspection. Somehow you are able to put into words, things I cannot say or identify. Because you’re also a child of N parents (my dad was spath, mom, N), you see something deeper that I don’t when obsessing starts. You said what I’m really saying “What’s wrong with me!” That feels/sounds correct. This also helps me connect dots as to being able to recognize what is happening within when there are triggers. And that friend triggered me good the other day. Your insight is very deep for me. I need to process it a bit more, but you’ve given me a HUGE gift in being able to see the obsessing for what it is as well as to observe it and analyze it. What’s it REALLY saying to me and what it really means.
I’m a little off on what you mean about spaths and symbols. I think I get the gist of it, for the most part, but clarification would be great on that.
Sky, having been raised by these people and then subsequent relationshits with them, and now out of ALL of them puts me into unfamiliar territory. It is VERY difficult for me to accept that so many spaths existed in my life. I’m still researching genetics (worried for my son too) and brain function. Dealing with “normal” people is hard, because I don’t know really, how to approach it. If that makes sense. I don’t know how to approach it without second guessing myself. There is a lot of self loathing within. There is a line all the way back to childhood in what the spaths did to me and the inevitable outcome in what was intended for me to feel. I’m feeling slimed all over the place. I think I’m beginning to see that I”m never going to be “normal” or at least feel it will never be normal, that I’ll have these struggles the rest of my life. I believe it can be better, but I think the slime will always be there in some form, but I guess I don’t know how to internalize that reality. When I think about the biofam spaths, I am way disconnected. As far as ex spath goes, you’ve asked some very important questions (you too Kimmy) as to my involvement, perhaps what I was trying to resolve from childhood. I’ve been able to go there, to an extent, but not to the extent yet, that I need too.
I feel as if in a double bind. Spath fam. spath ex, exP. I was thinking last night about when I was trying to extricate myself from the relationshit. WHY did I want out? And WHY am I having these moments of obsessiveness about it, when I didn’t want him anymore, to begin with? There is an underlying answer to which I’ve yet to discover. I need to keep that in mind when the obsessing starts, I think. I’m noticing that it also happens to me when I’m worried about something. Like right now, it’s school. I feel so worthless right now, I feel without direction. That bothers me. When I feel down about myself, the obsessiveness really starts up. There are some cd’s that I may purchase about mindfulness from another site. Anyway, I feel so damaged, I often wonder if I’ll ever get past it, even though my intellectual side, says that I will.
I appreciate your understanding, Sky. I really do. And the kind words too. Your insights are critical in that we share a childhood of pain and abuse with very disordered people. Your story of survival is always amazing to me. I’m so envious of those who weren’t raised with P/S/N parents. I think it makes getting over a relationshit a bit faster than if one was not. There just seems to be so many knots to untie now. NOT having a disordered person in my life, is actually really difficult. As weird as that sounds (I know you’d understand though), and even though it is quiet now, it was familiar. I knew how to respond to that in my life. I don’t know how to respond to life without. And it makes so much sense.
I have made wonderful friends here on this site. I feel blessed with the support that is here for me. I am reminded that even though this is so, it is still cyberspace. There ISN”T the benefit of facial expression or body language or conversations as if one is sitting with their friend. It’s true that one cannot assume motives of another or really know their heart in cyberspace. I think honesty in how anyone feels here at any particular time is critical in the healing process. I know there are times that I’m triggered by what I’ve read, but when it happens, I have to ask myself why. What is coming up that I need to address.
I don’t think it’s realistic to say that we will necessarily like everyone here. Nor agree with them for that matter. From this point on, I’m choosing to move past this issue with Katy, agree to disagree and continue here because there are others who have been supportive, remain so, and have helped me HUGE by their insights and feedback.
Ox, I respect you and what you share. All the things you’ve been through. You provide a lot of wisdom and have to everyone here. If you need to gray rock me, I understand that, but I can let that go. It doesn’t, to me, mean that I won’t learn something new from your posts to others. My choice is not to take it personally anymore and to continue to build up the friendships that I have made here, as well as those that give me the insight necessary, things I can’t see sometimes, to remove yet another layer.
Sky, I’ll be thinking about your post. There are so many valid points that you’ve made here. There is a book written by a woman (can’t recall her name now), about being a child of a Narcissist. I got the book from the library and it was so good, I couldn’t put it down. That was such a long time ago, however, I think it’s necessary for me to further examine that with more reads and more processing in therapy with regards to having personality disordered parents, as well as the abuse they inflicted. Trying to find a therapist who gets that the way this one did, has been enormously difficult. I have one more connection, a call into a gal who knows all the clinicians in this new place that I’ve put an inquiry in for services. She won’t be in until Thursday. I’m really hoping that at least ONE is familiar with personality disorders, being a child of, spouse of and OW ofm and, perhaps, the parent of….and the trauma bonds that are the consequences of having been raised in that environment. I’ll google some more reading material today for children of parents that are disordered. I appreciate so much that you brought that to my attention.
Claudia, New Winter, Kimmy, Aussie, Sky, Star, Eden, I really don’t have words that would convey how much I appreciate your support and input. As Sky said, I WILL get past this. But it IS going to take a long time. Thanks again ever so much!
LL
Kim I think you are right, because many victims DO have that pattern of behavior of repeatedly getting involved with abusers, then when they get out of one bad relationshit they promptly get back into another one, and usually rather quickly (at least when they are still relatively young and wrinkle free LOL)
I first observed this by watching others, friends of mine who would get into a relationship, it would be “heaven”‘ at first, then turn bad, then end, and for a month maybe they would cry and moan then declare themselves “ready to date” and go to a bar and find the next “prince charming” be “dating him” and or Move in with him in 2 weeks to a month and RINSE AND REPEAT.
There was seldom much if any “down time” and sure enough little to NO introspection over what went wrong with the relationshit.
You mentioning getting bored with the constant ruminating about them I think is a GOOD THING and an indicator that it is time to move more about ruminating about YOU. I’ve said here many times, “It starts out about them, but ends up being about US” and I truly believe that Kim. I too am bored with ruminating about the psychopaths, they are except for the scale of things, pretty much alike….just “bad, worse and worst and SUPER WORSE!” The main thing is that they have no moral conscience, they are arrogant, unable to bond normally and totally self serving. Some are more physically violent than others but they are all capable of violence of every sort I think.
Now that we know what there is to know about the psychopaths—HOW DO WE APPLY IT TO OUR LIVES?
Now that we have the psychopaths out of our lives and don’t intend to let another one in (and we are now pretty good at spotting the red flags when we see them and honoring them) WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE REST OF OUR LIFE?
Now that we no longer depend on someone else to supply our EMOTIONAL needs HOW DO WE SUPPLY OUR OWN NEEDS?
There are a lot of questions like that that we have to I think ASK and ANSWER before we can truly grow into the kind of people who will be secure and happy, depending on ourselves for our happiness, not seeking to find someone else to supply our happiness.
If you look back at little kids how when they get bored they demand that you (or whoever is with them) ENTERTAIN them or they get cranky and cry etc. They Are DEPENDENT on someone else to supply them with entertainment and “happiness” because they are not yet in a stage where they can do this entirely without help.
Are WE still somewhat caught up in that same mentality of the kid that we can’t supply our own entertainment or security and must have it supplied by someone else? Sure, human beings are “herd animals” and like to be around others of their species (that’s partly why solitary confinement is such a “punishment” to convicts, even the most hardened ones will avoid solitary if they can) but we have NO SECURITY AT ALL if all of our self esteem, all our entertainment and all our love comes from OUTSIDE, comes from OTHERS. We must as adults learn to self love, self entertain, and self pacify, and to supply our own emotional needs independently of others. If others supply ALL our emotional needs, then they can also TAKE THOSE NEEDS AWAY and leave us devastated.
Though I loved my late husband dearly and had I thought a pretty independent life IN ADDITION TO OUR RELATIONSHIP, and that our relationship was inter-dependent not de-pendent or in-dependent, it turns out that I DID lean too much on him for my emotional support and the meaning of my life, and when he was gone (especially in the dramatic way he left this life) I fell completely apart, my props were totally gone and I felt the need the DESIRE to have some other man RESCUE me from my dismal, dreary, sad and lonely world—ENTER THE PSYCHOPATH, ready to use me to fill his need for a new “respectable wife” —just what I thought I needed and just what he wanted, a perfect fit! The GLOVE FIT! Thank God above that I saw through the FOG before I married him, but it has still taken several years for me to start to learn how to supply my own needs, to meet my own emotional needs and to be SECURE in myself. That’s why I’m here at LF—learning t meet MY needs.
I don’t know everything there is to know about psychopaths, though I do know quite a bit, but I KNOW ALL I NEED TO KNOW TO PROTECT ME….You can NOT trust dishonest people. You can not trust unkind people. Psychopaths aren’t going to change. Dishonest people can pretend to be honest for a while. Unkind people can pretend to be kind for a while. When you see these things….run. That really is about all I really NEED to know about psychopaths for practical purposes. DON’T TRUST THEM. What more is there to know, really, that actually applies to our lives?
So now, the journey is about ME from here on in.
What do I need? What do I want? Those are BIG questions really if you consider both the physical, spiritual and emotional aspects of our lives. As Dr. Frankl said in his book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” that is what I am doing, is searching for meaning in my life. IN THIS STAGE OF MY LIFE—where my life is winding down to its conclusion. I’m done with my career, I’m done with my child bearing and child rearing, I’m done with my days riding in rodeos, I’m done with my sexy single gal role, I’m in the “mature years” the “granny woman” stage, the crone-hood age, and I’ve started to accept where I am. Not grieving over my lost youth, or the wasted years, not trying to look 20-30-40 again. Actually enjoying where I am TODAY because it does give me certain freedoms socially that being a young woman wouldn’t. I have less responsibilities to others than I’ve ever had in my life. That gives me a certain freedom of movement and time that I’ve never had before and I am learning to enjoy it.
So learning about me is my primary activity…doing what I enjoy, and not depending on others to either validate or entertain me or to supply my needs. Oxy’s SEARCH FOR MEANING for Oxy!
Sky, you’re an inspiration in your resilience, compassion and introspection.
But on a broader note, I’m so glad to see that everyone is starting to talk in a supportive manner again. I may have a psychopathy blog myself, but lovefraud.com is hands-down the BEST psychopathy blog/support group combo I’ve seen on the internet: largely thanks to the wonderful support group it offers, not just the clear and helpful articles by experts. That’s why I joined lovefraud. As they say, if you can’t beat them, join them:).
Yeah, Ox. I was that girl in the bar you describe. As long as I could attract a man, I could focus all my attention on him and not have to deal with my own issues. Deep seated pain, abandonment issues, insecurity, dependancy, etc. etc. etc.
I realized the other day that first I was a baby doll, then I was a blow up doll.
My parents infantalized me for their own purposes and tried to keep me dependant. When I started to gain a sence of myself and expressed my independance, they abandoned me emotionally.
The men I have been with have used my body, but never loved my spirit. They, too have abandoned me, either literally, or emotionally.
This is painful stuff, but I’m done running from it.
And there is no hope of getting the llove I needed from my parents, they are both dead. I don’t want to repeat, and find myself with a jerk, again. I find that having a loving God is about the only way that I can learn to love myself.
I deserve to love myself.
Kimmy,
As long as I could attract a man, I could focus all my attention on him and not have to deal with my own issues. Deep seated pain, abandonment issues, insecurity, dependancy, etc. etc. etc.
I realized the other day that first I was a baby doll, then I was a blow up doll.
My parents infantalized me for their own purposes and tried to keep me dependant. When I started to gain a sence of myself and expressed my independance, they abandoned me emotionally.”
I SO GET THIS! And that’s how I got involved with my ex spath too. Straight out of a really abusive bad marriage. BIG mistake, obviously, but it makes sense. I think it seemed easier at the time, to NOT deal with me. I could do the same now, but I know I’m such a mess and really, it resolves nothing only WORSENED things.
You’re right Kimmy, it IS painful. I CAN”T run from it, as much as I’d like too. I think it’s great that you’re facing your traumas and dealing with them.
I would like to know more about what works for you with your spirituality. I’m having issues with that now.
LL
Kim,
I do remember that story about you being abandoned. There was something familiar in it, as if I had experienced it, although I had not. I think it was just so “passive-aggressive” that I was able to relate to it in the sense that I’ve experienced that kind of attack and also witnessed it.
I’m also in a melt down over what kind of people my parents turned out to be. When I look at them, I immediately have metaphorical fog on my glasses. They look blurry because I loved them so much. But there have been moments when I have seen my mom do little snide things and she takes a tumble off her pedestal. She’s determined to climb right back up there though. Her pride is the most important thing to her. She has confused pride and self-esteem. She doesn’t know the difference I guess.
What I’m trying to say is that seeing your parents metaphorically naked is a scandal. It trips you up to see the powerful gods as just human. Maybe if we grow up first, then it wouldn’t be so scandalizing. But something about the way we were trauma bonded makes growing up very difficult. We are left with childish responses like, fear of abandonment.
LL,
I’m glad you can forgive the people who got mad at you. I’m not sure why everyone gets so upset when one of us begins to slide emotionally. We all can’t have good days all the time.
When I talk about spaths and symbols I’m talking about so many things. A symbol like a CocaCola logo, takes the place of an actual coke. When you see the logo, you get a visceral reaction, you get thirsty (perhaps), you remember the taste.
Status Symbols also give a visceral reaction. Depends on what it is. What if it’s a beautiful wife? Envy can often be triggered. To be or to own a beautiful wife is everyone’s desire (perhaps). Your spath would flash symbols of all the things he knew you desired. Sometimes he would just tell a story, like the one about the proposal. He could watch the visceral reaction on your face.
LL, you are extremely damaged by your upbringing. You are over the top emotional. That makes you perfect spath food. If you ever wonder if the spath is thinking about you, the answer is yes. What are the chances that he would forget such perfect food? Your goal in life is to stop being perfect food for spaths. DON’T FEED THE SPATHS! 🙂
Everything he did was calculated to make you suffer so he could watch it on your face. He knew your secrets and desires, even the ones you didn’t tell him, because he tested you for them and watched you react. So now take that information and watch yourself react. Your reactions are giving you the clues about what is bothering you. I think your family of spaths did the exact same thing. They whipsawed you so you would question: why don’t you like me? What is wrong with me? That was the wrong question. The right question was: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU?
the answer is, of course: THEY ARE SPATHS.
OK, I rambled, and my sentences have no cohesion, but you get the gist, I think. ((LL))
Yea, Kim, I agree with you….it is all about loving ourselves, and making good decisions for ourselves and taking care of ourselves and meeting our own needs.
Listening to our inner voices, our inner fears and desires…and then comforting that inner self and meeting her needs, nurturing her…that is the thing that we should have done when we were teenagers separating from and becoming independent from a loving set of parents….instead, I don’t know about you, but I ESCAPED from my childhood home..only to jump from the frying pan into the fire by going to live with my P sperm donor! I did have lots of ADVENTURES while living with him, got to travel a lot and see lots of things, but I paid high tuition for that by being around him. My first real encounter with a genuine and truly VIOLENT psychopath. I’m glad I came out of that one alive.
Again, I escaped from him….into the world alone. It amazes me just how little I actually knew at that time, but compared to what I THOUGHT I knew it was literally FUNNY. I knew NOTHING but I thought I was sooooo wise and knowing—I was 19. LOL ROTFLMAO Sheesh!!! My husband knew me back in those days and I can remember him out with some other friends of mine (he and they were older than me, and had been on one of the trips to Africa and worked with us) and I was pontificating on the causes of the Viet Nam war (like I knew anything) and my husband was looking at me and smiling….sort of sly. (we were just friends in those days) and years later I remembered that and I asked him “Gosh, I must have been an OBNOXIOUS know it all teenager, how could you stand me?” He laughed and he said “Yea, you were, but you were so CUTE ABOUT IT!” LOL
I did think I knew all the answers then, but now the more I learn the more I realize I don’t even know all the QUESTIONS much less the answers. Each new answer brings up two or three new questions that I never thought about before.
One of the reasons I am still here at LF is that I get to learn more questions here just about every day….things to think on and ponder. Even changing my thinking 180 degrees on some things that I thought I knew the answer to but now I see it from a different perspective entirely.
As long as we GROW we are truly alive, but when we stop growing I think we begin to die. I’ve finally quit dying and started to live. There aren’t as many years left to live now that I have decided to live them, but I intend to make each day count. That was one thing I loved about my step father. After his cancer diagnosis (they gave him 4 months then) he lived 18 months, and he didn’t spend them dying, he spent them LIVING. THOSE WERE SOME OF THE BEST TIMES I EVER HAD WITH HIM, we grew closer than ever before and I saw just how much he had always loved me and supported me when I was a kid, even though I may not have always appreciated it at the time. He was a great guy and I love the memories of those 18 months we spent together before he passed away.
It was because of him that I saw what a Christian really should be. My egg donor had the wool pretty well pulled over his eyes too, but in general he had the “number” of my P-son and didn’t trust him a bit.