Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
Oxy:
“it takes TIME and we may never be exactly the same person we were before the betrayal, but different doesn’t have to be “bad” it CAN be “better”!!!! ”
I second that……I am soooooo NOT the same person I was…..and I am thankful for that…..I (wish) it didn’t have to be so tragic a journey to these lessons and growing up…..But I really do think it was necessary.
I look at my life now……
I have great friends….true/honest/genuine relationships…..
I have been able to weed my garden of fakes thus far…whether they are family or friends….
I don’t have to be nice just to be nice…..
I also have been empowered…..and I feel like I can do anything…..(well???) But I have confidence I had as a kid….prior to being broken down. I know my worth and I know my value to my community and my kids.
My worth will never again hedge on someone else’s opinions…..
So….I agree….different is just different….not bad….BETTER!!!
New and improved….AND APPROVED!!! (by me)
Oxy….you sound like your digging deep…..and processing….
There is more enlightenment on your educated horizon…..
I have confidence you’ll be okay….just keep heading down the same path your on!
XXOO
EB
Hi Mamma Gem……
I’ve missed my late night rendesvous with you darling….
Weve got to hang in there huh…..
Your a beautiful woman!!!!
XXOO
EB
I have changed my name – some big things happened in the last few days and I now know for a fact the P is out to get me. So you posters knew me as someone sunny and optimistic who said no more to that – I’ll edit this reference once it’s been up for a while. I have been editing my comments carefully. Sorry to do this to everyone but I just can’t take any risks at the moment. He is out for my blood – not literally you understand, but he wants to destroy me and take everything. It seems revenge is his number one obsession now and the spotlight is firmly on me. Yay! As if I haven’t been through enough.
I have wondered as well whether I will always be defined as someone who survived a hell relationship with a P – it saddened me to realise that going back to who I was is impossible knowing what I now know. Thanks to those of you who said they are somewhat defined by the experience. I see it as a line in the sand as well … before that I was this person … and after it = well I still don’t know quite who I am yet!
Aloha and Erin and Kathleen and others … I hope I can get to that point where I am ok with it. And be really appreciative of the self knowing it has brought me. Right now though I am still struggling with the unfairness of it all – that he got to do whatever the heck he wanted (and still does) while I am left being the responsible one who takes the upper road and shows maturity and class. He slanders me behind my back and … that’s ok with society – ‘just ignore it’ seems to be the advice I am being given.
How can I ignore such injustice that totally blew my reality, personality, values, goodness and worldview out of the water? I don’t even have a metaphor for it – it is that huge. I want to be able to say – ‘It would be like losing every limb to a partner who ate them while I was conscious and aware … and I am meant to just ‘forget about it’ and ‘move on’ WTF That isn’t even close though – it’s more like a heart removal and burning, a brain torture with a drill and a brainwashing from a sect all combined … and even that doesn’t come close.
How can this exist in society and nobody does anything about it? Worse than that nobody even acknowledges the damage he did! Or recognises the wounds. And this cannibal that he is gets to be the big Mr Wonderful to the outside world. The injustice of it all makes me want to vomit and scream.
I can’t and won’t forgive him. For me forgiveness is only possible when the person who did wrong acknowledges what they did and the damage it caused, promises and follows through on never doing it again and makes some ammends. Not one of those actions is possible with him – so forgiveness is an impossibility and would be very wrong for me. I have had several people talk with me about ‘you need to forgive him’.
No I don’t. I need for him to get big tastes of his own medicine. I need for him to suffer really badly so he starts to understand what he did – probably even that is impossible – his suffering is an irritation not the depth plunging despair and grief that I suffered through. Sometimes I couldn’t even talk in trying to express it – I would scream and bellow like an animal. He doesn’t deserve forgiveness and I don’t think it’s doing me any harm in hanging onto that grudge for now.
The person I most need to forgive is myself. And I KNOW without a doubt I am taking those steps necessary for true contriteness and forgiveness – I am setting the ledger straight with myself first and foremost. I know my ‘I’m sorry’ is sincere and heartfelt. I know I won’t transgress against myself in this way again and I am trying to make ammends with myself by finding out at any given moment what my soul needs. It’s hard – I had forgotten how to listen to that voice – it’s irrational sometimes.
I had shut it down completely in trying to maintain this perfect facade of being in control of my life that everything was ‘fine’ – the pressure of it became far too much for me – especially when compared with the chaos of reality that he created around me. The dissonance was too much for me to reconcile.
I am seeing glimpses of that greater self knowing you talk about … but to be perfectly frank, I could have really done without this harsh learning. I would have been happier to have not met him and continued in my ignorance thinking the world was a great place and all people have some good in them.
I wonder sometimes if the ‘greater self knowing and what a blessing it is’ is just a story I tell myself to make me feel better about being so used and abused. That if I yet again look for the silver lining and make lemonade out of lemons then I won’t feel so dumb and bitter and jaded and tarnished. I just don’t know which is more honest at the moment and whether I’d rather just tell myself a few soothing lies for now. Anyone else have that doubt from time to time? Is that thought just a stage or part of the process? It comes and it goes – I am still quite up and down, two steps forward and three back at times.
I want to see laws against this – I want SOMETHING done about these people. It’s no good for lawmakers and politicians to rub their hands in s ympathy and say ‘Well we don’t really know what causes it and we don’t know what to do’ – while they stand around deliberating thousands more GOOD people are being annhiliated by these monsters – it’s not good enough. The VERY LEAST they could do is mount and fund an extensive public education campaign.
And hey I am all for diversity in humans and ‘we all have our faults’ but these people don’t harm themselves – they harm everybody else. Our leaders have let us down in not preparing us for enslaughts with these idiots and not providing support for us. Why are we being discriminated against in this way? Every other victim in society has stronger people to advocate for them, to fundraise, to heighten awareness … why don’t we? Apart from this blog and a few others … there is nothing. Unless you count women’s refuges … and how many of us got help from there? I was afraid to go there for help as it would be taking resources (which are already pitiful) away from women and men in physically abusive relationships. I know many others are the same.
My mind keeps coming back to wanting to do something … healing by itself in isolation isn’t enough – I want some form of social justice and some change so this doesn’t happen as easily to someone else. I feel like I fell through the cracks in society I never knew existed.
As to choice – after much reading and pondering – yes I think they make the choice to abuse us. Based on what evidence? They don’t abuse everyone else usually – the abuse is kept covert and behind closed doors so their charming facade isn’t besmirched. If they really couldn’t help it – they would be the same with everyone. It makes me sick to consider that concept – that he deliberately and with forethought and malice thought up ways to hurt me and carried them out. My brain and heart don’t want to believe it but that is the harsh truth. Therefore they are a problem and shouldn’t be walking around free in society with equal rights as normal people have.
They don’t deserve any rights. They should all be jailed for life as soon as they’re diagnosed. Sterilised and some use found for them for the betterment of society. That would be preferable to them USING all of us who try to love and support and do the right things even when nobody is watching us.
Bah! I am hormonal and icky today 🙂
I don’t feel I need to forgive the P. For there to be forgivness, there has to be some acknowledgment of the pain that has been caused and as we all know a P is not able to do this or if he/she does, takes pleasure in inflicting the pain.
I have however forgiven someone who does deserve it – ME!
After this rollercoaster recovery, I understand enough to forgive myself. I was a target, I had weaknesses and vulnerabilities which allowed him into my life BUT I am not a thief, liar or con artist. That is his problem.
Sometimes English is inadequate to the task, particularly when describing emotion.
Much has been made of the fact that most languages have many more words to describe Love than our does.
Perhaps we need more words to describe “Forgiveness” as well. After all, the forgiveness we offer normal people who err and repent is very different from the kind of forgiveness one offers a sociopath, who hurts us on purpose and will hurt us again at the very next opportunity.
I cannot help but remember the last time a sociopath tried to offer me one of those goofy pseudo-apologies. It began with “I’ve been having a lot of trouble with my pain medications lately…”
It was all I could do not to roll my eyes in derision. He’d been stoned out of his gourd for months. When high, he’d become belligerent, irrational, aggressive and paranoid. There’d been no reasoning with him, and the toxic waste that had spewed from his mouth had done a great deal of damage to our organization.
He saw the tight expression on my face, and new instantly that this hackneyed ploy wasn’t going to get him out of the necessity for genuine repentance. That, he’d never offer. He stalked off, and hasn’t bothered me much since.
That doesn’t mean I’ve been sitting around stewing in my own bile either. If I did, I’d get sick. I fully recognize that my desire to “help” him was misguided. No matter what he said, he never sincerely wanted to pull himself together and realize his immense potential. He just wanted another dupe. He did me a favor, and I’m grateful. By observing him over the course of several years, I learned more than anyone cares to about sociopaths and their ploys.
He still operates on the fringe of my social circle, and he’s still immensely popular. People fall for his act hook, line and sinker. As a rule, very little harm results. I couldn’t care less.
He’s the 2nd cluster B to cut a swath of destruction through my social life. Right before him was a malignant narcissist. Between the two of them, I’ve been thoroughly innoculated against drama.
I learned that most lies are not direct falsehoods, but rather elaborate acts where the dupe comes to a false conclusion without the liar actually having to make a false statement. I also learned to be instantly suspicious whenever pity is being used to manipulate me. Because of these lessons and countless others, I’ve thwarted play after play from the two cluster Bs who operate on the fringes of my family life.
So really and truly, I bear the narcissist and the sociopath no malice whatsoever. They’re textbook cases of social failure. They exist to model their disorders, so that anyone ready to study their illness can learn from their example.
Forgiving a normal person means putting what s/he did wrong in it’s proper perspective. Yes, s/he did hurt us, but s/he’s sorry. S/he know what s/he did was wrong, s/he empathizes with our pain, and s/he is going to try hard to do better in the future.
Perhaps forgiving a sociopath also means putting what s/he did in perspective. S/he hurt us, and s/he wishes we’d forget all about it. S/he knows what s/he did was wrong, and is amused by our pain. S/he can’t wait to do it again, just as soon as we drop our guard.
In the first case, it’s sensible to give the repentant person another chance. In the second case, it’s time to cut your losses.
In neither case does it make sense to stew about it.
Forgiveness for ourselves is another matter entirely, because we have to do the work of both the repentant and the forgiver. This is a pretty messy thing. On one hand, we see that we fouled up by trusting someone we clearly should not have trusted, ***usually*** again. Of course, we feel our own pain, our own sincere regret and our genuine desire to do better. The trouble is, we quite reasonably wonder if we can do better in the future. We don’t trust ourselves not to foul up again. We need some kind of reassurance that we can acquire the new skills or habits necessary to avoid making the same mistakes over and over again.
Of course forgiving yourself is a difficult thing. It’s at least twice the work as forgiving someone else. Besides, both your repentant party and your wounded party are privy to every doubt and fear the other half experiences. It’s enough to make you nuts, but I probably don’t have to tell you that. If you’re reading this, chances are you already know.
“They’re textbook cases of social failure. They exist to model their disorders, so that anyone ready to study their illness can learn from their example. ”
I like that…..EC…..well put!!!
Thanks!
Midlife…..
Even though I have NO IDEA who you are……
🙂
YOU WILL GET TO THE POINT of faith!!!
I wanted to do a loreana Bobbit on the S…..in the beginning…..train a tiger shark and let it loosse in hawaiian waters to attack him……not kill him….just maime him…..really badly and permanently…… (although this thought may still exist…..I think it may be impossible to train a tiger shark!!!) 🙂
After time…..and reading and becoming connected to how MY life has turned out and all the puzzle pieces etc…..
It may appear he’s doing well….and I’m sure if you met him today….you’d be convinced for a bit he’s got it going on…….
BUT I KNOW DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!
I know he has diareah.
I know he has NO relationship with his kids.
I know he lost the best thing that he will EVER have as a wife….(and I say thing….because tha’ts how they view us)
I know he lost all tangible assets and property and businesses…..except his drug sales operation……
I know he has to be covert in all his dealings.
I know he has an IRS audit on the horizon…..(that I won’t keep quiet on!)
I know he has the DEA watching him.
I know he has a shitty relationship with HIS family.
I know he’s been exposed and needs to keep on the run.
Now….what he’d show YOU……
He pays cash, insinuating he’s got money…..
He travels extensively…..(runs) which he portrays as being flown by ‘clients’ to all destinations across the us and bahamas….
He doesn’t have a car….Yet he drives nice, new fancy cars he claims are his….but they are ‘friends’ he cons.
He claims to own a farm in Hawaii….yet he rents from an old lady room mate…..he just grows pot on the land…..
He will cook you the best meal you’ve ever had….and you will be so enthralled you will never know he is way too cheap to take you out to dinner.
He’ll even have the rose petals and champagne, blender drinks and dessert……and YOU will be whoood…..
You will be whood in to sex early in relationship…..yet he will never tell you he fucks men and has herpes and whatever else…..
you might think he’s such a good catch…..you won’t mind him not wearing a condom….and winding up preggers…..
but you’ll think he’s a great father when your child is an infant and can’t speak or have a ‘mind’ of his own……I did! Wait until they develope independance….that’s when You’ll already by so hooked in and the abuse will start them…..you’lll reminisce about the ‘past’ wonderful years…..and think you can change him…..
The only problem is…..He’s all a fake!!!!
A SOCIAL FAILURE!!!
So knowing this…to my core……
He won’t be able to walk the universe without repurcussions of all the bad he’s done… He just won’t!
So…..once you find that peace…..through education and knowing what your dealing with…..and how to move along…..
You can move along to YOU….back to YOU……and leave him to the SHARKS, or the falling trees, or the out of control tractor tailors on a mountain road, or ………!!!!! It just won’t be up to you!!!
One of the signs of a sociopath is:
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core.
This I believe it where all their aggression comes from. They may not have the emotion of love,but hate? In buckets full! And according to the definition above it’s that deep seeded repressed hatred that is at the core.
My S woman even whispered to my back while laying in bed those three words”I Hate YOU!” and she did it more than one time over a span of three months. I shrugged it off as she must have said it in her sleep or if she did say it awake didn’t direct it at me. But looking back at her mental abuse of cheating on me, walking out on me, game playing;I am certain the only way she could have done those things was through a deep seated hatred for me. In the 27 years of our friendship/3 love trysts she had to hate me. How could she do the things she did without hating me?
This last time she knew I was married and crossed the boundaries from friendship to carrying on(with me) a 2 month non sexual emotional affair over the phone and emails. She initiated it this time with a lie saying she thought she was dying. She knew even as a friend that I loved her and I”Had to tell her” before she died that I loved her and always had.” She took that and ran with it. I don’t blame her exclusively for my part of the affair. But she led me into this (again) by manipulation. What real FRIEND could that? If she really valued my friendship 1) She would not have lied about “dying”2) would not have manipulated me to cross that boundary from friend to emotional lover knowing I was married.
all this I believe because she knew about me coming into my dad’s inheritance soon and she wanted some of it.
Forgive her for 27 years of anguish? Nope. Not now. Because SHE KNEW what she was doing all this time. While I kept thinking she still cared about me and somehow would “Change” with age. A sociopath doesn’t change. I know that now. So as of this second, I forgive myself for my emotional adultery. It shouldn’t have happened but it did. At least I didn’t travel 580 miles to carry the affair out in the bedroom. I have some grace saved there. And some grace left in my heart because before I didn’t know what I was dealing with. Now I do!
I wanted but I found so hard to forget and forgive this person. I find myself praying everyday for God to punish him for all he did to me and I know I’m not a resentful person at all. I forget and forgive so easily but in this case it has been a battle for me to do so. When I look at myself and my feelings of revenge, resentment and hate towards him
sometimes I feel ashamed of myself, but at the same time I think that for sure I was not dealing with a normal human being but with an “evil entity”, because I’ve never had this type of feelings with no one before.
Dear Elizabeth Connely,
I agree with you that there should be “multiple words” to describe “forgiveness” and I think of the one my “egg donor” used, of “let’s pretend that this didn’t happen”—-YEA, RIGHT!
“Let’s pretend what I/they did to you did not devastate, hurt beyond measure and rip you apart, and oh, BTW, let’s pretend that I/they won’t do this to you again!”
Forgiveness and “approval” or “trusting” do not always go together. I will never approve of what someone does that hurts me, and I will tell them that. If they DO care about me, they will discuss this with me, and do their best to not do it in the future. If they are NOT interested in discussing this, acknowledging what I have said, shown an awareness of the fact that the behavior is hurtful, etc. and stop doing it, then I can only assume that they do not care about me. Therefore, I am not going to trust this person again. I will “forgive” them, (in other words get the bitterness and rancor and wrath out of my heart) but doesn’t mean I will trust them, or care for them like I did before the abusive behavior.
Of course, if the person doing the abusive behavior is someone whose relationship you value, the wound will be doubly painful because you not only are hurt by the behavior but by the loss of your illusion that this person also loved you as you cared for them.
When we set a boundary, such as “If you lie to me I will no longer trust you” when and if the person DOES lie to you, and you enforce that boundary after X-number of lies show a pattern, then you must be prepared for the relationship to be lost. It hurts.
I think I could have forgiven my late husband if he had cheated on me once, and I think I could have learned to trust him again, but I could NOT have ever learned to trust him after the second cheat. That was my “break point” in a relationship even back in my enabling days.
Now, with those close to me, any deception (other than hiding a birthday present or something like that) is a DEAL BREAKER, any LIE and those that are close to me know this….and sure, when someone you love lies to you, destroys your trust, it hurts like HELL (the more you loved them the more it hurts) and having lost so many of those I loved to deception, abuse and so on, each one hurts as much or more than the last one, but I do not second guess myself about being able to trust this person even if they do try to convince me they won’t do it again. I am looking at the BIG PATTERN as Steve’s recent article pointed out, looking at the pattern of their deceptions, their abuses of me or others, and if the pattern is there, the relationship as far as I am concerned is gone. I’ll do my grieving and move on.
EC, your comments are always great! (((hugs))))