By | January 21, 2007 87 Comments

Futility: trying to save a sociopath

Dorothy Hooks is a Christian woman who tries to live by the Bible. When she met Cedric Youngblood, she saw a man who never had a chance. His family life as a child had been abusive. He had been in and out of jail. Dorothy saw someone who just needed to get out of the ghetto and learn the meaning of love and family.

In Dorothy, Cedric saw a giving, caring woman who wants to do the right thing and help people.In other words, Cedric saw a target.

Last week, the Cedric Youngblood story was posted on Dorothy courageously talks about her marriage to the man who she now realizes is a sociopath. But for more than three years, Dorothy focused on Cedric’s potential, hoping he would change his abusive behavior.

Again and again, Dorothy gave Cedric another chance. She kept forgiving his cheating and his violence. She knew he could change.

He didn’t.

“I didn’t realize that for a person to change, he has to want to change,” she says. “If that person doesn’t want to change, he’s not going to change.”

Victimizing nurturing women

In his book, Without Conscience, Dr. Robert Hare points out that psychopaths (the term he uses) are experts at identifying and victimizing nurturing women.

There are many people in the world who want to think the best of everyone.Time and time again, Lovefraud has heard from people who have been deceived and defrauded by sociopaths who say, “I never knew such evil existed.”

It does.

Sociopaths make up 1% of the population. That means in the United States, there are 3 million of these predators looking for victims. These people have no heart, no conscience and no remorse. By the time they are adults, their personalities are set. Any attempt to change them is futile.

Discerning those who want to change

Of course, there are millions of people who get into trouble in their lives and deserve a second chance. So it’s important to be able to differentiate those who can be rehabilitated from those who can’t.

The first step is to accept that sociopaths exist. The second step is to know the symptoms of the disorder.

Then we may be able to discern the people who really want to change from the sociopaths who only mouth the words so they can keep bleeding us.

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This is a really sad disease. I am now learning about it. To think that my 16 year old daughter can learn from her mistakes and a 42 year old man cannot just blows me away.


tough cookie

I am just learning about sociopaths. I very recently got out of a relationship with a man who I think could be diagnosed with this disorder. He seemed to have good days being happy and funny but other days he was really miserable and depressed.

At the age of 32, I think he knows he has nothing in life…No job, savings, in tremendous debt, and a preety bad drug problem. He seems to acknowledge that he has many problems and ‘issues’ that he has not dealt with from earlier on in life. He says he wants to change and make some out of his life. However I really have not seen him make any effort to do something about it…

When/ do people who suffer from this condition get tired of living in such a way? Is being a low-life for such a long time enough motive to change them and try to make something out of their life?

The more I learn about this the more I understand that you cant change these people no matter what happens.
Common logic doesnt make sense to them. My exwife keeps going when you would think she would stop because of the consequences, but the consequences dont sem to bother sociopaths.
Definitly check out the history of this person before marrying or becoming involved ith these people. I have learned alot going back thru her past all the things she has done.
There is a long paper list of things she has done.
When we divorced I thought it was aon a good note but then she cleaned out the house backed up a truck and took everything even the fridge washer dryer, They were all my parents and my parents house which they allowed us to live in rent free. They destroyed the house writing on walls, punching holes in walls, tearing up gas lines to gas fireplace that wouldve caught the place on fire had we not checked them, and much more. Over 17,000 dollars worth of damage and over 10,000 dollars worth of stolen items and she had gotten credit cards in my name and racked up over 25,000 dollars worth of debt in my name. I of course had to file for chapter 13 bankruptcy.
Guess what shes done this before I found out.
Her last place was trashed and burnt down that she rented from in Florida. And the place she moved into after she left my parents place she lived there a little while and when she left it destroyed and trashed it as well. So thats three houses that I know of that she leaves trashed and destroyed. It took a crew of 4 people over 2 1/2 weeks to clean and fix our house non stop 8 hours a day 5 days a week. We had to evict her to get her out as she refused to leave and when she did she left in a big way. We also found another eviction down in Florida from yet another place.
She spent time in jail for stealing from a local place she was working for over 2500 dollars she was a manager at McDonalds.
She has been arrested and has a case against her with Home Depot for over 5000 dollars for stealing from them.
She has a case against her for account fraud for paying rent to one person. Credit card fraud and internet fraud in another county. Bad checks and credit companies call my house everyday looking for her. She has had petit theft guilty charges against her in Florida. A Grand Theft charge that hasnt gone to case yet in Florida. the list goes on I have plenty more I could add.
My point is it doesnt effect these people and they get away with alot of it. They pay a fine and get out the small time she hhas spent in jail doenst bother her. She laughs and is back out doing more.
We have 4 different counties in my local area that have had charges and guilty and jail time for her and nothing seems to effect her or stop her.
You CAN NOT SAVE these people.


They do not “learn from their mistakes”, because to the spath, they are NOT mistakes, but just a little bit of “collateral damage” that they can easily (and DO) walk away from. They still got the result that they were after – their “supply”, whatever form/s it took.

Spaths do not think that anything is wrong with them and they do not accept any viewpoints or opinions that don’t match with theirs; however, they are more than happy to USE those differing viewpoints and opinions of others to study them, to assess their vulnerability and to execute a scam over the unwitting victim/s.


AMEN Aussie!
If you want to hear the opposing point of view… talk to my xspath!!!


Sociopaths don’t want to change their ways (that is so true) being set in their ways, unwilling to learn to do differently. I discovered (the hard way as usual) that my husband could not manage a bank account, nor did he seem inclined to learn how to do so. He would write checks, not having sufficient funds to cover the checks that he’d written. I would try and explain to him that you don’t write checks if you don’t have the money to cover the checks. I would bang my head against the wall, wondering why a grown man could not manage a bank account, deliberately writing checks that he knew would bounce. At the time, I figured he needed training, but then as time passed and he didn’t change his ways (he would typically have some stupid explanation about why he wrote a bad check), I had to conclude that he didn’t intend to EVER learn how to manage a bank account. What floors me is that he isn’t embarrassed by bouncing checks. Repeatedly writing bad checks was a sign to me that there was something very wrong with this man, in time, other behaviors becoming more evident, leading me to figure out that he is a sociopath. The man seems to have a mental block when it comes to money (and other things), how to operate in the world-at-large.


bluejay –

They do SEEM to have “mental blocks” about things, but I’m sure that it’s just that they don’t agree with the opinions of others or society’s “norms” so they don’t bother to accomodate or conform to them.

Anything or anyone in their way is simply a blip on their radar – an inconvenience to be circumnavigated and then they continue on their own merry way.

Oh the stories on this topic that I could tell! The myriad of things that just didn’t make any sense until I knew that they had been deliberate. He hadn’t SEEMED that stupid, ignorant or anti-social, so I excused his odd behaviours. I now know that they were either part of his “crazy-making” or else they were “blips” to be gotten around, without concern or remorse over their effect on anyone else.


Not all sociopaths are damaged people with childhood trauma’s that need rescued. They dont think there is anything wrong with exploiting good people who have had a hard life. Many of us are the damaged one’s that keep being damaged over and over by these predator’s. It’s the goodness we have that they want, they may be better off financially than we are but they still want to steal our goodness and destroy us and then walk away with a sense of accomplishment. It’s power they are after – seek and destroy and enjoy every minute of it.



My husband has done so many stupid, unbelievable things. Yes, all of us could tell a story or two about the nutty stuff that these creatures are capable of doing. Some times when I would confront him about some misdeed, he’d get the blank look on his face (he faded out), thus the thought that he has a mental block.

super chic

hens, I’m so glad you got a new computer!
You are right, not all need to be rescued.
I was the one that thought I had to help everyone.
After being here on LF for a while I learned I
am not responsible for other people’s problems
(spath or no spath!) I think even empaths
can take advantage of our goodness, they just
don’t destroy us in the process.
xoxoxoxo to you hens!



When I was dating my husband (16 years ago), he told a mutual friend that he was attracted to my kindness. I didn’t know that possessing such a quality could be a liability. Yes, they do target good, decent people, taking advantage of anyone, I suppose. I now know that there are people who literally do not want to do what is right in life, being willing to harm others (without blinking an eye), still being an unpleasant fact for me to accept (but I have gotten this lesson into my core, so good for me). Now, what to do with all that we’ve learned and figured out through our practical experiences?


Good Morning Shabby – Yes my whole life has been about helping other’s to the point of not looking out for myself. My credit sucks cause I co – signed for this one and that one. I put their needs before mine, paid their doctor bills and didnt go to the doctor for myself. Put blinders on while they stole my identity and ruined my creditability. Worked in their yards with out pay just because I wanted to make them happy etc etc.. where are they now? Not thinking about me thats for sure…

Ox Drover

Well, this is another one I have apparently missed in my “read every article on LoveFraud” campaign, there can’t be many left!!!! It is an excellent one and I am glad that it was brought back up as there is great information here.

It isn’t ONLY psychopaths that don’t want to change, or don’t see a need to change, but many times victims as well. We may even escape one abusive relationship, only to be sucked into the next one, and because we have not plugged the chink in our armor, there is always a place for another psychopath or abuser at least to crawl into our inner core. We must find the “chink in our armor” and plug that up, we must quit being vulnerable targets or we will continue to attract abusive people.

I’m not sure why they can REPEATEDLY “spot us” and we have difficulty “spotting them” even after we have been taken to the cleaners by 1 or more abusers and/or psychopaths—we some how don’t see the PATTERN of how they infiltrate our boundaries, get inside our forts—or why we OPEN WIDE THE GATES of ourselves to let them in–but until we find out why we allow the abusers repeated access to our inner cores, there will be more knocking at the gates saying “let me in” and we will continue to do so.

In a situation like Jaycee Dugard or Elizabeth Smart where it is a stranger abduction, those girls/young women didn’t have to be aware of why they were kidnapped/targeted, but they did, after the fact, have to work through the fact that they ended up being trauma bonded to these monsters and stayed even after the ropes were untied.

None of us here were as far as I know stranger abducted, but were instead abused by people we “knew” and voluntarily associated with (of course not knowing what they were capable of). Why did we give them a second chance and a third and a forth chance after we discovered the first lie/bad act? Why did our boundaries for abuse keep expanding and expanding until possibly we were in almost the same position as the wives of the kidnappers who helped kidnap Dugard and Smart, actually knowing about the bad acts that the psychopath did to others and still staying, trauma bonded to them? Or expecting them to change, to stop doing what they were doing?

We know we can’t fix them, I think most of us here have gotten to the point that we have accepted that as a FACT. Without blaming ourselves for their abuses and their acts, we do have to accept responsibility for the second and the third bad act that they did that we KNEW ABOUT and “forgave” or “overlooked” or gave them a “second chance.” (I don’t think acts that fall into the level of the victim having NO idea what was going on count toward that.) But for those of us who knew that the psychopath was lying, doing illegal/immoral things and we still gave chance after chance, WHY? Why did we allow our boundaries to be stretched to the point of not being boundaries at all? What made us continually keep up the magical thinking? The fantasy of “they will change” or “it’s okay, it’s only……”?

Were we working with a “truth” that was FALSE? “There is good down inside everyone.” “Enough love and understanding can change anyone.” “You can’t give up on your kids.” “Family first, blood is thicker than water.” “He’s really sorry.”

Those of us who have strong faith that even a person who has a very flawed character can change, can be forgiven and that “God can do anything” must realize that a person must WANT to change before even God can reach him. There are a few examples in history of people who did change, of people who did some awful things who turned their lives around, but the “best indicator of future behavior is past behavior” and the RARITY of the 180 degree turns in behavior underscore the fact that the chances are very slim that the person who is abusing us or has abused others is going to change significantly. There are very few rapists who become caring and loving intimate partners to the new relationship.

We also must want to heal, and not only WANT to heal, but LEARN what healing IS and process it in such a way that it is successful and that we can have healthy relationships with other healthy people and we must learn to recognize and avoid UN-HEALTHY people, whether or not they are psychopaths or whatever term legitimately applies to them.



It comes down to becoming a better judge of character and stepping out from under the mantle of saving others. We can’t save except ourselves.

But, this must be within the boundaries of understanding that the disordered represent only 5% of population. that means 95% are NOT disordered or at lease not sociopaths.

Learning to function within the bounds of social norm is important, I believe to each of us who come here. If we were not caught astray of those bounds where the disordered operate, we might have saved ourselves a tough experience. The advantage of running with the herd is clear.

Key is not apologizing or making up for anything another person does or does not tell. If I don’t know, I don’t know. Assumption is dangerous. Very.

The facts and the facts of behavior speak loud. There is no oops. And it holds me and you to higher standard.

Maybe God can do anything and everything, but I don’t have to be there when he does it for someone with a flawed character. Its up to me to become a better judge of character.

I second that emotion!

We also must want to heal, and not only WANT to heal, but LEARN what healing IS and process it in such a way that it is successful and that we can have healthy relationships with other healthy people and we must learn to recognize and avoid UN-HEALTHY people, whether or not they are psychopaths or whatever term legitimately applies to them.

So true!

Ox Drover


On your “statistics” that the disordered are “only 5% of the population” let me say that I DISAGREE….the statistics are 1-4% of the general population are PSYCHOPATHIC, meaning would score above 30 on the PCL-R, but in a prison population in the US, about 25% of the criminal inmates score 30 or more, meaning they are psychopaths, and the AVERAGE score of all inmates is a 22, and the average score of NON INMATES is about 5 or 6. So there are right this minute 2 million inmates in the US (the highest rate of per capita incarceration in the world) and another 5 million on parole or probation… also psychopathy is NOT THE ONLY PERSONALITY DISORDER according to the DSM-IV, there are others, as well as people with Other SERIOUS mental conditions and problems, so 95% of the population is NOT “NOT DISORDERED” it does not mean that 95% of all people are “good” or even “pretty good” it simply means that the WORST OF THE WORST comprise “only” 1-4 % of the population, but my “guestimate” if you consider all situations is that probably 35-50% of the general population have some “significant problematic behavior” with a fairly significant percentage of the population having a criminal record of some sort for dishonesty/theft, drugs or violence of some kind.

I hate to sound cynical but I have found that trusting most people very far is a big mistake! My trust is no longer dispensed until it is abused, it is EARNED by anyone who gets it.

I had a long telephone conversation last night wiht a friend of mine who is a professional therapist who has worked with sex offenders and psychopaths and really knows them, both on a personal level and on a professional level and we were talking about how many people we knew PERSONALLY (not clients) who were “seriously” messed up—who were seriously TOXIC. Unfortunately many of them in the “helping professions,” therapists, doctors, nurses, social workers, etc. He went on to say “You know, I really don’t like humanity. I like individuals, but In GENERAL I don’t trust PEOPLE.” Pretty cynical I am afraid, but “the more people I know, the better I like my dog.” (can’t remember what famous person said that, but it is true!)


Dogs, horses, mules all considerably more trustworthy than people for sure.

Earned trust is norm. No objection there. But looking for a spath behind every tree is a bitter way to proceed. Assuming one of every two people is a psychological train wreck? Man, I’m having a very hard time with that assumption.

And, it is DANGEROUS for amateurs to diagnose or define children with this or any disorder casually.

We all must be cautious. But to loose complete faith in humanity is a devastating thing – My heart goes out to anyone who has that feeling that because some are Toxic, that most are toxic. The key is discernment and avoidance on which I most sincerely agree with you.

I don’t believe it that one in two is a toxic personality and will not be convinced that there are not many, many good and true people in the world. And comparatively more of the good ones than not.

This is NOT to say that I don’t believe that there are a lot of problems but, I’m not buying the 50% logic.


You know, during one of the P’s “Don’t you trust me?!?!?!” Schpeals i was thinking and even said out loud something to the effect of, “Trust is earned, you don’t just give it away”

Here this schmuck was, preaching to me about I had to “Trust” him after I knew him for about a month ( Found out some incriminating info about “another woman”) and i was thinking, “What could I possibly have to trust him on?” I felt ODD for being PRESSURED to trust him- like it should be the default mode- trust him, like he wanted, a robot who sees things but pretends she didn’t.

TRUST IS EARNED PEOPLE. And even if trust is earned, you STILL have reasons to distrust people on ( it’s YOUR call not theirs! ), and it is TOTALLY UP TO YOU as to whether you want to share something with someone.

Ox Drover

Dear Silver,

Not that 50% of people are psychopathicly disordered, but that probably 50% of the people have some SERIOUS behavior issues, drugging, drinking, petty crime and dishonesty, verbal or emotional abuse, enabling behavior, etc. Sure, it is a pretty grim view of humanity, but I think more realistic than not. On the SURFACe my egg donor is a “pillar of the community” but she is a TOXIC enabler protecting the family bad boy, so though she looks like a successful person, steady job before she retired, financially secure, no criminal history, etc. she is NOT A HEALTHY PERSON emotionally or psychologically.

I had a couple of dates with a guy who was a resident of another state, but he was a widower, retired, financially secure, his brother lived near me is how I met him, and he seemed like a “good guy”—but he wanted me to let him ILLEGALLY FLY MY AIRCRAFT OUT OF MY AIRPORT so he could go for a joy ride. His license was not current with the required medical, the plane itself was not legal to fly because of no insurance on flying it, the airport was not legal, for the same reason, AND the plane had not had the legally required mechanical inspections. He insisted that “I won’t crash it” but I kept saying “but it is ILLEGAL” and all he would respond was “well, I won’t crash it” Well, the morning my husband died, there was insurance (thank God!) and he was an experienced pilot with all the legal Ts crossed, and STILL the plane crashed, killed him and severely burned 3 others and still we got sued by the guy whose pasture the plane went down in. It wasn’t even my husband’s fault. It was the owner of the plane but since he was a student pilot my husband was RESPONSIBLE for the crash anyway.

I didn’t let the guy fly my plane but I also did NOT go out with him any more either (well,, he didn’t ask me again, but I wouldn’t have if he had) because he was I SAW, DISHONEST. He was probably NOT a psychopath but he was at least marginally dishonest and that in my book makes him TOXIC TO GOOD RELATIONSHIPS AND GOOD SENSE.

My X-BF that I do believe was a psychopath, drove drunk from time to time, and THAT ALONE would have ended the relationship for me. How many “good old boys” drive legally intoxicated? In Arkansas the OFFICIAL statistics on Friday and Saturday night are 1 in ten drivers on the roads are “legally drunk.” To me, that makes those people criminals that just haven’t been arrested or properly prosecuted. As far as I am concerned, that means that a pretty high percentage of people do things that are “minimally criminal” (at best phrase) and that behavior is something that eliminates them from what I consider the class of PSYCHOLOGICALLY HEALTHY PEOPLE. Then if you look at the people who are seriously mentally ill with bi-polar, borderline, addictions, and other serious mental illnesses, and add them all up, what do YOU think would be a percentage of people who are psychologically “healthy” individuals that you might want some kind of an intimate relationship with?

Doesn’t your dog look better and better?! LOL


hen, money, spaths do not get it! Run up debts, we try to help, sort them out, bank account, repayment plan, even give then the flippin’ money and they still can’t do it. Or they do it for short time and do not consider the implications of not keeping up payments.
He would buy things he could not afford, not budget, no thought for tomorrow or how to prioritise.
Looking back….he never actually bought anything for the home in the year I was with him. If he bought anything it was for him.
He never paid a bill.
Why did I put up with it? Looking back. Like Ox says they do it once, twice and we keep giving them the benefit of the doubt (boink) thinking that they will ‘get it’.
He bought a car washer £80 what the hell for I have a car washer!
He never treated me with chocs or flowers – once he bought me a bar of choc!!
He would buy something knowing full well he needed petrol for the car – very infantile, no thought for tomorrow.
I paid at the bar, for meals, holidays – gee whizzzz (boink boink)
Pass the frying pan.
They never change and he’s living proof.


Ox, you’d love my dogs. You would. I do.

I am sorry that you’ve had so many tough experiences. It doesn’t seem fair that anyone would, but it does build your expertise!

Intimate/close relationships don’t just mean sex partners. To me they include close relationships family, friends -people I love. And they fall across a range of interpersonal engagement.

My rules? No lying,. No cheating No stealing: no kidding.

The volume of your pain and suffering is almost more than I can bear. I wish there is something I could say to soothe it. But I do not believe there is.

So, I will say that my experience in life is that there are very bad people, there are bad people who do good things sometimes and there are good people who do stupid things sometimes and there are good people and GREAT people.

The badly disordered make up less of the population than the good ones. The Great ones are rarest. My taste has always been for rare and wonderful things.

But a taste for the exotic got me in a bad trouble so I think my favorite flavor going forward is going to be VANILLA.


gotta agree with Oxy on this one. Most people running around have SOME sort of personality disorder – some kind of narcissism. It’s human nature to be flawed. What we have to distinguish is which ones are PERMANENTLY flawed and beyond help. The P’s are people who are in a state of emotionally arrested development. They do not want to change. Their narcissism is so extreme that the idea of changing or even growing is an insult to their ego: “Why would I want to change? I’m perfect already.” Wanting to change is admitting that they AREN’T perfect. OMG – no way.

My spath sister said to me, “skylar, people are evil and they can’t change, you shouldn’t try to change people” when I was telling her she needed to stop her evil behavior. She doesn’t really have any thoughts in her head, so most likely she was parroting the trojan-P.
My spath brother, on the other hand, has been a bully and a manipulator since age 5. But, around age 18 he began telling people that he had mental problems. He joined the hare krishnas (for free food?), he reads carlos castenada, buddhist philosophy, he even tried to join the scientologists (but they didn’t want him, he has no money). His whole life he has been searching for “the answer”, but he doesn’t want to change, that much is obvious. He knows that he is a miserable worm and he plays the lottery religiously. He wants a change to occur in his life, but not in himself.

Anyone or thing that can’t grow, rots. It’s a law of the universe, nothing stays the same, When people try to, they become spath – rotten fruit.

What percentage of people are that way? If you take Bill Clinton as an example. He appears to have all kinds of changes in his life, even reached the presidency and in my opinion was a GOOD president in terms of policy. But I believe that he was a spath because of his sexual escapades and the rumors of murders and drug corruption. It’s hard to check a person’s emotional growth, you can only witness behavior. In my mind at LEAST 10% of the population is in some state of emotionally arrested development and rotting from the inside out. Another 40% or more have serious issues with maturity but want to be better.


Monday, August 2, 2004

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NIAAA Press Office

Landmark Survey Reports on the Prevalence of Personality Disorders in the United States

An estimated 30.8 million American adults (14.8 percent) meet standard diagnostic criteria for at least one personality disorder as defined in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), according to the results of the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC) reported in the current issue of the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry [Volume 65:948-958].

Conducted by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, National Institutes of Health, the NESARC is a representative survey of the U.S. civilian noninstitutionalized population aged 18 years and older. More than 43,000 American adults participated in the survey. Designed to assess prevalence and comorbidity, or co-occurrence, of multiple mental health disorders, the NESARC is the first national survey conducted in the United States to estimate the prevalence of selected personality disorders stable patterns of inner experience and behavior that are inflexible and maladaptive that begin in early adulthood and are displayed in a variety of contexts that often co-occur with other mental health disorders such as substance use disorders and anxiety and mood disorders.

The NESARC found that the personality disorders are pervasive in the general population: In 2001- 2002, fully 16.4 million individuals (7.9 percent of all adults) had obsessive-compulsive personality disorder; 9.2 million (4.4 percent) had paranoid personality disorder; 7.6 million (3.6 percent) had antisocial personality disorder; 6.5 million (3.1 percent) had schizoid personality disorder; 4.9 million (2.4 percent) had avoidant personality disorder; 3.8 million (1.8 percent) had histrionic personality disorder; and 1.0 million (0.5 percent) had dependent personality disorder.

The researchers found that risk of having avoidant, dependent, and paranoid personality disorders is greater for females than males, whereas risk of having antisocial personality disorder is greater for males than females. They found no gender differences in the risk of having obsessive-compulsive, schizoid, or histrionic personality disorders. In general, other risk factors for personality disorders included being Native American or Black, being a young adult, having low socioeconomic status, and being divorced, separated, widowed, or never married. With the exception of histrionic personality disorder, all the personality disorders assessed in the survey were associated with considerable emotional disability and impairment in social and occupational functioning.

“The first-time availability of prevalence information on personality disorders at the national level is critically important,” said Dr. Ting-Kai Li, M.D., Director, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism. “Personality disorders consistently have been associated with substantial impairment and decreased psychological functioning among alcohol and drug abusers.”

“The NESARC was crucial in determining the scope of personality disorders confronting the nation and in identifying important subgroups of the population in greatest need of prevention efforts,” said lead author Bridget F. Grant, Ph.D., Ph.D., Chief, Laboratory of Epidemiology and Biometry, Division of Intramural Clinical and Biological Research, NIAAA. In a separate paper, the authors report findings on the prevalence and co-occurrence of alcohol, drug, mood, and anxiety disorders; the study appears in the current Archives of General Psychiatry [Volume 61, August 2004].

Full text of the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry article is available to media representatives from the NIAAA Press Office and to journal subscribers at For interviews with Dr. Grant, please call the NIAAA Press Office.

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, a component of the National Institutes of Health, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, conducts and supports approximately 90 percent of the U.S. research on the causes, consequences, prevention, and treatment of alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and alcohol problems and disseminates research findings to science, practitioner, policy making, and general audiences. Additional alcohol research information and publications are available at


My therapist (the last time I saw him was May 2010) had a sign hanging in his office that read:

Who took the fun out of dysfunction?

I think that there are all sorts of people in the world, having a range of of behaviors (from positive to negative), hopefully, the majority being good souls. It’s smart to go along with caution, being protective of ourselves and our loved ones.


Ox Drover,

You are so right about toxic people working in the human services field, of course they are everywhere, but it makes you wonder why people with these disorders want to work in fields that are supposed to help humanity. I used to work for a mental health agency, and seriously I liked some of my clients more than I liked some of my co workers. I couldn’t wait to leave my job with that company. The sad part is I miss working with my clients, but I don’t miss the negative atmosphere that surrounded my job. It really was toxic!

Also too, my ex boyfriend’s (the socio) ex girlfriend -the mother of their daughter who is the half sister of my daughter – I’m just finding out is a narcissist. She is a pre-school teacher for the local “Y”. I never thought too highly of her, but she was always nice to me, so whatever. She wanted to befriend me because she knew how much her daughter loved her new sister – at this time her daughter had no contact with me or my daughter because her father and I were broken up and I basically wrote off anybody that was associated with my ex. Which is sad because his daughter is a sweet girl and genuinely loves me and my daughter, but I knew it wasn’t a good situation.

His ex girlfriend and I just started talking a lot. Of course we bonded because of the mutual feelings we had, our lives being inflicted by a sociopath. She would tell me that when they were together she had days when she couldn’t get out of bed because she was so depressed. She told me a lot of stuff that I didn’t know my ex was doing behind my back. Which I thank her for that because it made me open my eyes and see the true story.

But anyway, this story has so many twists & turns, I could spend all day typing, but to get to the bottom line she was so nice to me, concerned, etc, but I just knew something was off. The two of us were still under the inclination that if our ex got help for his drug abuse he would be the father our girls deserve to have. I was always skeptical of my ex’s true intentions. I knew he had a lot to prove to me besides getting clean. But his ex girlfriend was so onboard with him getting into rehab, and supporting him, being there for him, mind you she has a new boyfriend. I always questioned that. And now looking back I know she wants him to get clean so he could get back his old career, and start making the big money he was making before. Money was always a big motivator for her. She would always complain to me about her working 2 jobs and just wanting to stay home with her daughter. This girl has serious issues. I even now wonder if she, when she found out I was pregnant, became jealous of she and her daughter not being #1 in my ex’s life. I do not like people being jealous of me. I think jealously emotes negatives feelings. If anything I want people to be happy for me. But she is the one that wants people feeling jealous of her, thus her being jealous of me when I was preggers. I know with her narcissistic, trampy ways she tried to lure (not physically, but mentally)my ex away from me when I was pregnant. This is all coming to light to me the more time I stay away from them. This girl is a tramp and likes luring men(married, not married) into her little web. Of course she comes off as being this lovely(not really), nice person, but underneath her exterior is a monster as well. She would always tell me that our ex would tell her that his heart belongs with her. As if!!! Total arrogance!

Also too… her and my ex went to marriage counseling (they weren’t married but went to marriage counseling, weird?!?!) when they were still together. Do you believe their counselor told her that my ex had an anti social disorder. And she continued to stay with him. Why… because of the money. Mind you too his ex girlfriend has her bachelors degree in education and psycology. If that is not messed up I don’t know what is. And she still continues to maintain that if our ex gets help for the drugs he’ll be ok. And she also lets their daughter still be close (whatever that is) to her father. She always says “but she loves her dad so much”. Crazy woman and terrible mom if you ask me.

Getting back to the topic at hand…this woman teaches impressionable young minds!!! I always think that if half of her students parents knew her true personality they would not want her teaching them. But anyway…I also think that she got what she wanted. She didn’t want her ex spending time with a new baby when “her baby, her child” should be the most important person in his life. And yes, she got what she wanted because I will not allow my sweet daughter anywhere near her monster father!

Thanks to everyone for reading this. This story seems a little(a lot) confusing, you can imagine how it feels actually living it. But I am slowly regaining my peace and my life without these people ruining it! 🙂


A Lot of socios go into professions where they feel SUPERIOR to others..cops, teachers…etc.
The socios I dated were business owners, a cop, a teacher, and one worked with disabled people….
Satan roams the earth!!!!



That’s the key word…they feel “superior” to others. So true!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Aerin,

Yea, it is a convoluted story all right, but AREN’T THEY ALL?!!!!!!

My friend the therapist said during our conversation last night that many people in the “helping” and especially field of psychology get into it to fix themselves and they never manage to do it.


Now I am learning to take the BEAM out of my own eye, doesn’t mean I can’t still see the speck in someone else’s, but does mean I am SEEING MORE CLEARLY all around. LOL

I have worked with some professional mental health workers with some PhDs and MDs who were SCREWED UPPPPPPP! I think nurses (I am one) are one of the higher percentages of screwed up professionals in the medical field. And that does not only include the lower levels of it, because I have seen it in the PhDs in the field as well. You may notice that there seems to be a higher than population percentage would necessarily show of people on this site who are educated professionals, in several fields, mental health professionals, and nurses, physicians, therapists etc. Being smart doesn’t keep you from getting victimized and being educated doesn’t keep you from being screwed up or screwed over, either.

I actually thought I was being assertive and healthy in my interactions during the times I was being ANYTHING BUT HEALTHY, I was being both an enabler and a victim to several psychopaths at the same time…and then serially as well. How warped can one person get? Well, I thought I was sooooo smart I wouldn’t be hurt or involved in an unhealthy relationship and they were all around me because I was waaaay too cock sure I was doing right. Not quite as bad as I was as a “know it all teenager” but CLOSE ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK.

Now, I know I not only don’t know all the answers, I don’t even know all the QUESTIONS, but I do know that dishonest is bad, that people who are dishonest are not good for me, and at the first sign of DIS-honesty I am GONE.

I no longer give my trust away, and I don’t tolerate dishonesty in people I trust. If someone I trust is dishonest to me, they are no longer trusted. If I see them being dishonest in any way I distance myself from them. If I end up the ONLY person in the world that I think is honest then I may be by myself a long time but at least I will NOT be with someone who is dishonest and out to screw me over.

Fortunately, I have some great friends that I trust a lot because I have seen them over years (decades) and know them to be HONEST and trustworthy in many situations, not just a few. Those friends are worth more than gold to me. I treasure those friendships and will cultivate them as long as I live because they are rare and good.

It is unfortunate that I trusted others in the past who betrayed my trust, and others that didn’t live up to my trust, but they were learning experiences for me, so not a total loss. We miss a great opportunity if we don’t learn from our failures.


Ox Drover,

So sorry you were surrounded by these “bad people”. I read some of the stories on here where people’s childhoods were exposed to sociopaths and therefore as they got older found themselves in relationships with sociopaths. I can’t imagine the pain they must have felt going thru all of that, including you. Glad you found the strength & wisdom to do what was right for you. I guess I can consider myself lucky as that I had loving, good parents, friends, and family, but unfortunately got messed up with a sociopath. I know what you mean about thinking your too smart to get caught up with people like this. If somebody I knew was doing me wrong, that’s it, I was done with them. I guess the sad part is I found out my exboyfriend – the socio -was up to no good and I knew I had to break up with him. But shortly afterwards I found out I was pregnant and “stuck” with him. That’s exactly the way I felt. STUCK!!!

I was a business major in college but found myself in the mental health field as an activities director because I always wanted to work with the disadvantaged, and plus I have a fun, outgoing, empathetic personality. Go figure…everything a sociopath targets. The word sociopath wasn’t too much on my radar. Depression, anxiety, bi polar, schizophrenia(sp), yes on my radar. Sociopath not too much. I never imagined people like this existed.

Like you said…it’s a learning experience. A tough one, but whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger!!

My ex really did rob my soul. I always considered myself a strong, confident, independent woman. For a short while he made me become somebody I didn’t reconize (the same time I didn’t reconize him as the person I thought I knew, talk about twilight zone!). My therapist, love fraud, family and friends are making me the woman I was before, even better!

BTW- I am starting my own business and just landed my first account. I’m so happy!!! I know buiding up my business is going to help me so much as far as healing emotionally!

And I just found out my ex bf is in rehab. I know he’s making everyone feel sorry for him because he has this drug problem, and he’s depressed and doesn’t have me or our daughter in his life, and he’s trying to make his life better. Pity party for him!

Ox Drover

Dear Aerin,

WAHHHHH! for him!!! Poor baby, keep him out of your life and your child’s life if at all possible. Your child needs him in her life like she needs another hole in her head. She needs a disordered father NOT at all!

Go to Dr. Leedom’s blog “raising the at risk child” (there’s a link on LF) and there is a lot of information on there for you since your child is genetically at risk due to who her father is. My sperm donor was a psychopath, and a very violent one at that, but I am not psychopathic, but I have a son who is, and it is known that there are some genetic links. Don’t panic though, it doesn’t mean your child is gonna be a monster like her father, just that you need to get all the help you can, and especially as a single parent, to riase your child with a good conscience and empathy! Dr. Leedom has a child of her own by her abuser/x-husband and so she is a great source of information on the subject.

I’m glad that you are supported by your family and friends and that you are getting a business off the ground! congratulations!


Ox Drover,

Trust me…HE KNOWS he is not allowed around me or our daughter. I think the fact that I told his ex girlfriend (mother of his other daughter), that I cannot let my daughter grow up with their daughter as sisters put the nail in the coffin. Their daughter desperately loves my child, but their daughter’s well being isn’t my responsibility, it’s theirs.

I was so scared when I first read on here that children of sociopaths are highly prone to becoming one as well. OMG…I think all the blood left my body!! Then I read that as long as you are loving, affectionate with your children and display signs of being a caring, empathetic person yourself your children should be fine. Plus the fact that her father’s dysfunctional ways will not be in her life make me feel a little better. I eventually want to start doing some volunteer work with some non profit agencies, and I definetely want that to be a part of my daughter’s life. To give back to society. So hopefully she’ll be a sweet, caring soul. Now you have me all worried again. Thanks…lol!!

It’s good though to be fully schooled on the impact it could leave on innocent children. I will take a furthur look at Dr. Leedom’s blog. Thanks!!

Ox Drover

Dear Aerin,

Didn’t mean to panic you darling! But at the same time, time is of the essence with a child’s growing up. My P-son had I think a caring and loving family (not perfect, but a good one in many ways) and still at puberty he morphed into a monster by 20 he was in prison for murder. My other son is ADHD and an asshole, but not a psychopath, but I’ve “done with” him in any case. I don’t hate him, but just don’t deal with him any more. If I must communicate with him it is by e mail. I haven’t laid eyes on him in a year since I invited him OUT of my house for lying to me. Broke my heart and I had a melt down last January, but I’m doing okay now, got a handle on it. Just have NO tolerance now for dishonesty of any kind in adults and not much patience with it in kids! LOL

My adopted son is a doll but I don’t take any credit for him!

Dr. Leedom is a sweetie and she is concerned about her own child and is doing the best she can to help herself and others raise their at-risk children with empathy and compassion to give them the best shot at being empathetic and caring adults.


My ex once told me about the woman who’d tried to commit suicide, and the two ex-wives who put on an enormous amount of weight after their relationships ended. Now that I have finished with the mass-manipulating, the lies, the projection, and unbelievable stress, I understand. One of the ex-wives wrote me and said that I now understood what she’d dealt with and she hoped I didn’t put on lots of weight to block the pain. I survived over twelve years with a man who swears to anyone who will listen, especially his bondage girlfriend, that he was the most faithful man in the world. I can’t even discuss it with him, because he is in his own reality. I only know that I am glad to escape the insanity, and if that was loyalty he was showing, then…I’ll pass. It was a horrendous experience filled with unbelievable deception and lies in every direction possible. I learned more about the word, “depravity,” that I ever wanted to know! You cannot change a sociopath! His poor ex-wife has no idea how I protected his children, and he is now with someone who seems to have a small child at home. My family has told me to just move on…and I am, because if I don’t I will probably go insane.


I’m so sorry your children have caused you so much pain. I can’t imagine as a mother what that is to go thru. You have sweet, beautiful babies and never think they will grow up to be people you want nothing to do with. I’m really sorry.

Of course I have tender moments with my daughter, but then I think uh oh, when she’s 15 she’s not going to want to be tender with me anymore. I pray all the time to God to protect my daughter and to keep her mentally and pysically healthy, and safe. From the second I found out I was pregnant I prayed for her because I knew her father’s family’s history with drugs & alcohol. I prayed that she wouldn’t have that genetic link to their substance abuse. And now I pray that she doesn’t become a psychopath. Ohhh…my poor, sweet daughter. I love her so much.

Thanks for your insights & concerns. I always think its good to hope for the best but expect the worst. I pray it’s the BEST for my daughter!! I will definetely look more into this matter!



That previous post was for you

Ox Drover

Dear Aerin,

Believe when I say that my faith has been tried, and sometimes I felt like King David when he threw himself on the floor crying “Oh, my son, my son” for his psychopathic son Absalom, and I think from the story that Absalom was a very narcissistic and creepy guy and probably a psychopath. Other psychopaths are described in the Bible. David had enabled Absalom for years, decades.

I realize too that we do the BEST that we can for our children, and then when they are the age of accountability we must let them be on their own, stand on their own two feet and be responsible for themselves. We love them when they are little and teach and correct them, give them a good example and then our job is done, the rest is up to them. They have CHOICES. I do not think that any of us are “programmed” to be anything, we may have a TENDENCY like the genetic part to be a drug addict or an alcoholic, but you have the CHOICE to drink or not to drink, to drug or not to drug, the psychopath knows right from wrong and has a choice. They are not doomed in my belief any more than a person with a genetic tendency for alcoholism. A person with that tendency still has a choice. It may be a more difficult choice for him than for me (assuming I don’t have that genetic code turned on) but it is still a choice. Yes or no.

You sound like a bright young woman and a caring one and I think your daughter will do fine with a mother who models love and empathy for her, and teaches her to have compassion for others. Even in identical twins raised apart studies there is only a 50-80% correlation in psychopathy so it is not a done deal at all. Environment has a lot to do with it. I wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t all have some of the genetics for Psychopathy that just aren’t turned on by environment in us.

Glad you are here Aerin, because the young women have their entire lives ahead of them and their children and are the ones to carry the banners forward to the next generations of mothers and fathers. I’m glad to see young women like you, “getting it” early on.



Thanks for your kind words. Like I always tell my therapist, “I need to keep on trucking”. And then he’ll tell me to think sunshine, not gloom.

A small part of me always thinks that one day when my daughter is an adult and having a bad day, she’ll have a glass of wine, and then another, and then another until she can’t stop. I always think that something will trigger that alcoholic link to her. I know I am thinking the worst here, but it’s something that’s always in the back of my head. You’re right about the environment she is in, my therapist says the same thing. He says she isn’t going to be brought up around that behavior (btw- my ex lives 30 miles away) and therefore more than likely won’t have that tendency to depend on drugs or alcohol. He always thinks I worry too much. I’m a mom…that’s what moms do.

Thanks again…I sincerely hope your son (the one with ADHD) comes around and realizes how important it is to have your mom in your life. I know he will need to earn his trust back with you, but I hope he “gets it” one day and becomes the person you raised him to be.

Ox Drover

Dear Aerin,

I used to wish that too, and I thought he had, but it was just another fake change of heart. It wasnt the one lie that got to me, it was the LAST ONE. He’s on his own at this point in time. He’s not a kid, he’s an adult man well old enough to know what he was doing, and to make his choices. He cut off contact with my egg donor for lying to him, and yet he turns around and lies to me. DUH! Sort of the “pot calling the kettle black” I think.

I wish I could say that there is any possibility I would ever trust him again, but there’s not, and those that I can’t trust I don’t want to be around, there’s nothing in a relation-shit with them for me except pain. But you know, I’m okay with that at this point in time, so don’t “feel bad” for me, it was just one of a long line of things I’ve come to grips with. That’s LIFE.



Good for you!! I think as long as you surround yourself with good, positive people, and don’t indulge with nonsense, lies, fake people, bs, etc, you’re good to go!

That’s my mantra for life. Surround myself with good, positive people!! All others can go you know where!! 🙂


you brought up a post for me last night, and I saw it while I was half asleep, and cannot quite remember or find it now. can you tell me the name of the post please.
thank you


Oxy, my post on the other thread should have gone here, because it is more relevant to the topic of trying to save a sociopath. My comment was about why it is so difficult to be in church. He will harass, stalk and use the fact that the church will always accept him – why? Because the belief is that people can change.

In fact, many people have tried to save him – I always think to myself, “Good luck – you’re the 101st person to try.” Many (not professionals that have worked with such people) will not accept the fact that he is an abuser, much less a sociopath, much less an evil person. Some people think it is their life mission to turn these people around.

It also doesn’t help that we always hear testimonies of changed lives, and some dramatic ones at that. Some people live to hear such testimonies. So they will not give up on anyone.

Why do we stay past the first mistreatment? Because breaking up was hard to enforce. The first time I told him of my hesitancy in going forward, we were in the car and he drove me to his place and kept me there, in his room, being interrogated and threatened. I was afraid and backed off. I didn’t have any support (I was thousands of miles away from home). Then later, when I broke up, he kept coming back and harassing me and I found I couldn’t study. I knew I couldn’t afford to fail, but there was no way of keeping him away, so I went back and thought to myself that since most of the conflict was about breaking up, I should stay, and it would be easier. So we got married.

Once married, I thought I had no other option. During the many years of marriage, I saw many counselors, mostly alone but once or twice with him. Even when they heard my story or saw his behavior, not once did anyone tell me to run. In fact, after his arrest not long ago, the pastor, who watched him decimate me and said his wife would have slapped him if he had spoken that way, suggested to us to go away together, just the two of us. I was horrified, and luckily, I couldn’t get babysitters. Finally, I told my counselor I wanted to leave the relationship – she wouldn’t give me full support. I told the psychologist and he said that separation wasn’t an option. In the end, I decided I didn’t need anybody’s support – I knew God would support me.

It sounds like I am giving excuses, but in truth that’s the way it was. Of course, knowing what I know now, I would not let that happen again. But back then, I didn’t know one could legitimately leave a relationship. From what people tell me, many still think that way.


Oxy –

“Those of us who have strong faith that even a person who has a very flawed character can change, can be forgiven and that “God can do anything” must realize that a person must WANT to change before even God can reach him.”

Absolutely. Let’s not forget that we were created with both the capacity for learning but also with the capacity for free will.

Sure, God could have “fixed” Pharoah in Moses’ time, so that he treated the Israelites nicely, instead of whooping them, But the Bible describes Pharoah as “hard-hearted”; not even messages carried directly from God to Pharoah through Moses and Aaron had any effect on THAT supreme narcissist! God chose to allow Pharoah to experience the consequences of his free will.

There are also plenty of examples of God deciding that enough was enough and just taking people right out of the picture, knowing as He did, that there free choice was to be the way that they were and that no amount of “learning” or exposure to “the facts” was going to soften their hearts or change their minds.

Who are we to argue with that wisdom and those assessments? Whether we believe in a Christian God or not, and whether we have faith in the Bible or not, these are still valuable principles and lessons for us. Not everyone is redeemable. Not because God CAN’T redeem them; but because they DON’T WANT redemption, they want things their own way. Just like spaths do.

Sky –

“He wants a change to occur in his life, but not in himself”

Wow! That pretty well sums up spaths all over, doesn’t it? They are never satisfied with what they have, but keep seeking to fill their bottomless pits of nothingness by changing things in the lives they touch instead; and not in a good way.

Aerin –

“about toxic people working in the human services field, of course they are everywhere, but it makes you wonder why people with these disorders want to work in fields that are supposed to help humanity. ”

I work in schools and have been appalled over the years, by how many teachers don’t actually LIKE children. What those same teachers DO like though, is the POWER that CONTROL over a buch of kids bestows upon them; and the credibility that such a profession brings within communities.

“A small part of me always thinks that one day when my daughter is an adult and having a bad day, she’ll have a glass of wine, and then another, and then another until she can’t stop. I always think that something will trigger that alcoholic link to her”

If it reassures you in any way, I am the grandchild of three alcoholics (and I don’t know about my fourth grandparent, because she died before I was born and is rarely talked about). I am also the daughter of a former abusive and violent drunk-by-choice. I don’t think that my father was an alcoholic, because when he decided to stop, he did so without much of a battle, from what I was able to work out.

My life has been exactly the kind of way-out soap-opera that really ought to have induced me to go back to my “roots” and drink my way through it, but I have not done so. Nor am I a teetotaller; I enjoy a drink every now and then, but have never had an addiction issue with it.

So – it does not necessarily follow that if it’s in our gene pool we will fall back into the fanily pattern.

artheart –

“I learned more about the word, “depravity,” that I ever wanted to know! ”

You and me both. x

“My family has told me to just move on”and I am, because if I don’t I will probably go insane”

You can’t save everyone. I feel enormous sadness over my former step-son (now 16 and very troubled from all accounts). He lived with me for 4 years and rarely saw his bio mum during that time, so he felt like my own child and I feel a level of responsibility for his welfare, even now (4 years post-spath). I had to weigh up the cost of “being there” for him with the things I needed to do for my own healing. In the end, I had nothing I could give him anyhow, because I didn’t even have enough for myself.

I comfort myself by thinking about the good things I taught him, the protection from his father that my presence in the home afforded him and the REAL love I showed him. Perhaps, one day, these things will be his saving grace and perhaps, without the 4 years we had together, he would not have otherwise had those experiences.


Dear aussiegirl,

Thanks so much for your kind & reassuring words. It’s comforting to know you weren’t inflicted by your family’s history of alcohol dependence.

lesson learned


I caught a post of your above I’d like to address about your daughter drinking a glass of wine then another then another and she can’t stop.

My exspathy introduced me to wine. It was his MO. I loved it, and still do, but realized that I was becoming an alcoholic. So I stopped drinking wine. Last week, during a very dark time of depression and pain (I’m newlyl NC) My daughter and I and her BF went out for chips and salsa and a drink. I had two glasses of wine. Then another…….and if we had not left, I would have had more….I was not ready to try it again. I enjoy very much going out with my child and having that time with her. I’m not opposed to a glass of wine or two, but given that I got hooked on it with Spath and am still grieving, it’s just not safe for me right now. It’s almost as if wine is a connection to spath. And I just can’t allow that in my life at the moment. Maybe I’ll try again someday, maybe I won’t, but I think it’s all about choices. I choose NOT to drink to drown my pain or to connect with Spathy again.
I don’t know your full story about your daughter yet, but it IS possible that this too shall pass. But she has to make that choice. Alcohol can easily become a poor coping skill. Before the stress of spath, I rarely IF EVER touched alcohol. I can make better choices. And I bet she can too if she wants too. It’s all a matter of who is in control. Alcohol and Spathy and his addiction or me. Well, now I am 🙂


lesson learned,

Thanks for your story. My daughter is only 15 months old, and a sweet, lovely baby at that! I know I’m thinking too far into the future, but I guess it’s better to worry than not to worry. I think deep down in my heart I know she’s going to grow up a very intelligent, beautiful, kind, happy, caring, strong, independent woman. It’s just that little voice in the back of my head saying “what it”. What if something happens in her life that triggers that genetic link inside her to depend on drugs or alcohol (that’s on her father’s side, not mine, thankfully).

I have a very good support system around me that love both me & my daughter, especially considering everything I’ve been thru with her father. They want nothing but the best for us. Thank goodness she is not going to be exposed to her father’s crazy, dysfunctional life, and I know that’s very beneficial to her well being. I really would die if she grew up around her father and his crazy making, sociopathic ways. I told him that as well. He just kind of shrugged it off, as if he knew he couldn’t stop his behavior. I should say he doesn’t want to stop his behavior. Too bad for him!!! He’s the loser in this game as far as I’m concerned!!

Thanks again for your post. I wish you luck & healing. Going no contact is the best way to go. It shows your power over them!!!

lesson learned


LOL! Funny….I only caught just that post. Now I understand a bit better.

I agree with you in that she stands a better chance at not using alcohol and drugs if given enough support. It is NOT a guarantee however. My ex P, the father of all of my children, is a raging alcoholic, as is his father. I was BLESSED that he wanted NOTHING to do with his children and that gave me the benefit. My older girls will have a drink once in awhile, say if they go out somewhere, but NONE of them are alcoholics and they ALL know the downside of it. This became VERY important (educationally) when approaching adolescence. ALL but two tried alcohol or marijuana. You cannot prevent your child from exposure to those things as they become more and more independent, but if they grow up with a good base, with education and direction, discipline and MAINLY love, the chances are better they will make the right choices. Sounds like a good thing that you’re thinking about these things now, but living in fear about what the future will bring is probably not so much if it’s overwhelming. I wish I could protect my children from all the bad influences and stuff out there, however, if they aren’t exposed enough to make choices, I believe their chances are higher of using than not. It’s all about everything you teach to her and how she chooses when she becomes an adolescent 🙂 I think you’re VERY wise in thinking about how to approach it now. Also teaching her about sociopathy in the future is also wise. Because she isn’t exposed to her father, DOES NOT mean she won’t be exposed later outside of the realms of safety. There are MANY examples here of that. I think knowledge is power, strong boundaries another…there is nothing wrong with teaching your children about what goes on in the REAL world out there. Whether she chooses to engage in drinking/drugs is the least of the concerns when she could choose a dating partner that may be a sociopath later on in life, or friends or even have teachers that are (I have a son who had a psychopath teacher-NIGHTMARE!). As with my experience Aerin, you could be completely alcohol free, but a sociopath can use that as his MO and lure your child into those behaviors, thus setting off the genetics element.

Just food for thought. I’m glad you’re away from your spath and have a great support system. It DOES up her chances of a healthy life! You sound like a great Mom and perhaps this experience will provide many blessings for you in the future as well as for her with the radar you’ve developed now!

Good Luck!


I don’t know how to respond to specific posts.

This is what is so difficult: When we were trying to “save” our marriage, I kept reading that it is best to stay with the person you are with, because when the necessary changes happen, then the person ends up being a better husband. If you don’t, then all of your hard work goes to the next person that your husband ends up with. So…I see the fallacy in expecting change, but I also have to see how happy he appears with his new person. He doesn’t even look back at all of the damage he left behind. It is as if thirteen years just disappeared. He tells everyone that I have done what he has done. He sends me threatening emails stating that I am doing what he has done. I can concur with so many of these blog comments, because I THOUGHT we had a special bond, and I was with him when his mother and dad died, and now it is as if I never existed. He tells everyone that I am this person that I could never recognize as me. He actually says with the most sincere heart that he was never unfaithful in our marriage, and this new person and, I think, even his children believe him! He was horrendous during our marriage in so many ways, and he has turned it all on me. I don’t ever want to step between the love of a child for the father, so I have had to “eat it,” and I have to say it hurts. I love his children and to have me be seen as an ogre in their eyes hurts me to the bone. How do I move past this? I really want to, and I am trying so hard. Sometimes I believe I can feel him, but I have to shut him out, because I know he only wants to use me for something else, and is the master manipulator of my feelings. What a fool I have been, and for so long.


lesson learned,

I’m glad your children are healthy and know the downfalls of alcohol. I’ve gotten some good feed back regarding that matter on this forum, and it is very comforting to know that just because my daughter has that genetic code in her doesn’t necessarily mean she will become one. I, like you, and some other posts on here have said they know when to stop. I’m glad to know that my influence on my daughter will afford her that option as well. When the time comes I will talk to her about the dangerous effects of drugs & alcohol. I’m not going to tell her not to try it, because we all know how that will end up. I just want her to be a normal, healthy, happy child, teenager, adult!!!

And yes…I am going to nicely speak to her one day about sociopaths. I want her to be fully aware of these kind of people out there. I really think I would consider myself a bad mom if heaven forbid she got involved with a sociopath. I would rethink everything about me as a mom and a person. I think because my daughter doesn’t have a father like I had (loving, protective, fun) that I know she deserves so much more. The thought of her having downfalls with drugs or alcohol or coming across a sociopath herself hurts me so much. I know more than likely these things won’t happen, but that small part in me says “what if”. I know she’s in good hands and has a great future ahead of her. And no the thoughts don’t overwhelm me, I’m confident in who I am and where I come from, I think I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered. Not worrying about it is I guess worse than worrying about.

Thanks for your kind & inspiring words. I really appreciate it!!

lesson learned


No problem, Chica.

I’ll share a story here with you. My now 22 year old daughter got involved with a psychopath when she was 18. Even though she KNEW what they were like (she HATED exPOS with a murderous passion), and that her father was a P, it didn’t prevent this man from dating her. I didn’t like him from the get go. At first I was VERY cautious in how to approach it with her because I didn’t wish to alienate her. I felt my support of HER (not the relationshit and not of him) was MOST important…that I loved her, but I could NOT and would NOT participate in their relationshit. She lived with him for two years. They were painful and tumultuous, for she and for the rest of us who had to stand by and watch, but I believe because she KNEW about psychopaths, it dawned on her that this guy WAS indeed one and that she needed to come home. She did. Consequently, he love bombed her left and right. She went back. She came home, she went back..but each time she did come home was an opportunity for me to show her as much love and support as I could and also to plant the SEEDS necessary to let her know that her participation with him was NOT loving herself. Granted, I was NOT a great example of this because I was saying those things and still involved with POS, but she KNEW what I was dealing with and going through too…..she DID come home again, and each time she had gone back, was shorter and shorter intervals.

She has been out of the relationshit for a year now. She has a new boyfriend and we adore him. He is kind, good to her, participates in our family, shows enormous empathy (he was here watching Titanic the other night and spontaneously burst into tears at the end lol), and is kind to others too. I’m so so so grateful for that. About a week ago though, her expsycho saw her walking into a bank with her new BF. She pretended not to notice (although new bf wants to bash his face in, go figure), and just kept on with her business. He was waving, trying to catch her attention, but she didn’t acknowledge him or look his way.
Two days later, a love bombing message on her FB. LOL! She had blocked him and so he changed his profile to contact her. When she showed me the message he sent, we just sat here and laughed. He claims he is a changed man and cries about her every night. Was a POS!!!!

So, you see, it CAN happen, even when the child KNOWS these people are bad…..but I TRULY believe that had it not been for my patience, understanding and love and support for her, gently planting those seeds of self love for herself and that we loved her too, she may well have stayed A LOT longer……..

I never assume, as a mother of six about ANYTHING anymore with regards to the choices my children have made or will make. Because I loved them, inform them, does not mean they won’t have experiences that I wished they didn’t have. Ironically, the children that DID try the alcohol and marijuana, DID NOT wind up addicts. I had a daughter who struggled with a drug addiction for a very short while, the same daughter who was with a psycho…but it didn’t last long. Intervention is key, as well as love. But sometimes that doesn’t work. But what ya hope for, is that it does. And in my case, I’m damned lucky. I feel the pain of posters here who have lost children to psychopathy. It’s like a death of a child. I’ve been on the edge before with one of mine, not sure whether he was or was not. Turns out he was not.

If there is one thing I’ve learned, life offers no guarantees. About anything, except death and taxes lol! I think just trying to live everyday without a toxin to corrupt your life is good enough for me right now.

I think your daughter stands a great chance at life, even if her decisions aren’t the best at some point, simply because you love her so much and she’s young enough that she can get a GREAT start with you having all the knowledge that you do. Perhaps that is your greatest blessing!



I sooo hear you.

“He doesn’t even look back at all of the damage he left behind. It is as if 13 years just disappeared.”

“He tells everyone that I am this person that I could never reconize as me.”

“He has turned it all on me.”

OMG…that was so me a year ago. I couldn’t understand how my ex could do something like this to me. And he just went on with his life without a care in the world. Life of the party as usual. Leaving me with our newborn daughter. Mind you I was the one that broke it off with him. Do you know what he did? He told his family & friends he broke up with me because I didn’t want his other daughter visiting my home. Can you believe it? God only knows what else he said about me. But have faith in that the truth always comes out. I didn’t even know he said all of these things until 7 months later. And yes…everyone now knows he was the lying one…NOT ME. And trust in karma too because currently my ex is in rehab and apparantly depressed (do these people actually get depressed because as far as I knew these people had no feelings?).

Believe me…I was out for justice. How dare he do something like this to me, and more importantly our daughter. But like I said the truth always comes out. He is currently living with a woman who I believe to be (I am not joking here) certifiably crazy. She drives his life crazy. I think his drug abuse sent him into the ground with nowhere to go but with crazy, stupid, ugly girlfriend. He really has nowhere to go, most of his family has written him off, and quite frankly are done with his childish games.

You have no idea the anguish I went thru. Having a baby is supposed to be the happiest time in your life. He made it the worst time in my life. My daughter is such a sweet blessing, but it was the circumstances surrounding her birth that made me so unhappy.

“Because I thought I had a special bond”

OMG again…my ex made me feel like we were so good together, so happy, meant to be. I really was so happy with him until I knew his drug use was getting worse. I knew I had to get out of dodge, but then shortly afterwards I found out I was pregnant!! Ughh…talk about terrible timing!!! Strangely enough I still look back fondly on all of our good times. How strange is that?!?! But I know I do not want him in my life, and quite frankly he does not deserve to be in my life.

I think his whole rehab stint is just a facade for people to feel sorry for him, help him because he lost everything! He really is a LOSER!!! He can get all the help in the world…he’s still going to be a sociopath causing pain & havoc everywhere he goes!

Have faith in God to help you thru all of this. God really became my best friend thru my trying time. I didn’t understand how my ex could do all of this to me & everyone in his life. I just found LF 2 months ago and believe me it answered all of my questions about him and this disorder! Knowledge is power!!

Best of Luck!!

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