UPDATED FOR 2020
A Lovefraud reader who posts as “LadyA” sent Lovefraud the following email. At the end, I suggest how she can recover from the sociopath.
I’ve spent a lot time thinking about my experience with my spath, and how it affected me and the people around me. I have read article after article, story after story. I now fully understand what spaths do and how they do it but I didn’t understand why I don’t feel any better about it. What was I missing?
When I left my spath it was a fairly dramatic experience. He had just been sentenced to serve jail time on the weekends for an obstruction of justice charge. My mom flew into town and in one swoop we packed up everything we could get in the car and left the province to go back to my hometown. I had to quit my job over email and send a goodbye text to all my friends.
I am thankful every day for what my mom did for me. I sure wasn’t happy about it at the time but I knew I needed out and this was my chance. What I didn’t know is how much moving back to my hometown would affect me emotionally. I had originally planned on only being back for six months. Just long enough for him to move on and get me out of mind, but it has now been just over three years and I still haven’t moved back. I got settled in a new job, new friends, and a new relationship. Even after all of this I haven’t been able to figure out why I’m not happy. Until three days ago.
Pride. I was proud of myself for the life that I had built. I moved 1200 km’s away from home right after high school to a big city. I was on the fast track to a strong career in a competitive field. I had a brand new car, paid all my bills on time, and was saving to buy a house. I was independent, reliable, strong, caring, and had a really great outlook on the world. Not many people can say that at 22.
All of that was ruined by a six-month “whirlwind romance.” I’m no longer proud of myself. I feel like I have failed because I came back home with my “tail between my legs” to my mommy. I no longer have a new car because it was repossessed as soon as I got back here. I am jaded, I don’t trust people easily, and I am no longer as strong as the face I put on the outside. I’ve gained weight because deep down I just don’t care anymore. My career is now on a plateau due to the location where I live. I don’t have one reason to be proud of myself right now.
How do I get my pride back when I know what happened? I want to feel proud of myself for my life but I just have zero idea where to start. I’ve thought about moving away again, but I don’t really know if that’s the answer. How can I be proud of what has happened in my life? I’m really honestly just so ashamed.
Donna Andersen responds
Dear LadyA,
I am so sorry about your encounter with a sociopath. Although this is not a normal breakup, the good news is that you can recover from the sociopath.
Right now, however, it does not seem that way. Why? I can see two reasons.
The first is that betrayal by a sociopath is a huge emotional injury. In the beginning of your email you said that, after all your reading, you now “fully understand what spaths do and how they do it,” but you don’t feel any better.
Understanding is a critical first step to you to recover from the sociopath. But understanding is an intellectual process, something that you do with your mind. The wound you experienced is also emotional. It needs to be dealt with emotionally.
How do you do that? You allow yourself to feel the pain of the injury.
This means letting yourself cry. Letting yourself scream and wail. Letting yourself experience anger — I’m sure there is anger — perhaps by working it out on a punching bag.
This isn’t pretty, and you probably want to do it privately, because other people often have difficulty being around this. Or, you may have a good therapist who can help you.
One way or another, any bottled up emotion you have within you needs to come out.
Underestimated the injury
Next you wrote that you identified the reason that you’re not happy as “pride.” But it seems like you are regarding pride as something bad, like one of the seven deadly sins.
You had every reason to be proud, because your pride was based on your achievement. And the sociopath took this away from you.
Here is what I think has happened: You have underestimated the scale of the injury, and the severity of the betrayal.
LadyA, you were building a life for yourself. You went out on your own; you started building a career; you were moving forward.
And some manipulative, deceitful parasite, who did something bad enough to end up in jail, ruined it for you.
Not only did he cost you money and hurt your career, he corrupted your outlook on life. You’re jaded; you don’t trust; you don’t care. You are not the young person you once were all because of the sociopath.
Recognize that this was not a normal breakup after all, you had to flee your home, job and friends.
Your life was shattered. Your psyche was deflated. This is a massive shock to your system. It’s no wonder that you are still struggling.
Drain the emotion
So what do you do? In my opinion, you do exactly what I suggested earlier — allow yourself to feel the pain now, knowing that the pain is bigger than you originally thought.
So you cry. You stomp. You imagine him standing in front of you and yell at him. (Do not, however, attempt to confront him in person. This would be counterproductive.)
The idea is to drain off the negative emotion.
As you drain the emotion, a void will be created within you. It’s very important to fill that void with joy.
This may sound preposterous to you, like you have no reason to be joyful. But don’t look at the totality of your life right how.
Do any small thing that makes you happy: Go for a walk. Play with your pets. Have lunch with a friend. Listen to music.
To recover from the sociopath, it may require many rounds of draining off the negative and replacing it with positive. But with time, you’ll find that your entire outlook will change, and you’ll be able to get back on track.
Importantly, with the wisdom you gained through this experience, you’ll never fall for a sociopath again.
Lovefraud originally published this article on May 12, 2014.
High school boyfriend pursues her, then abuses her
Dear sane
Your comments are so inspirational. The person who is pretending to be a car. You actually made me laugh. You are so wise and you are so right. You have to know in your heart how awesome God is. One of the greatest compliment I got the other day “God made you such a great disciple”. A lady told me and I was so happy to hear her day that.
Like you I “idolized” my security, house, material things before all this happened. God showed that it can all disappear in a whimp, but God will always be here for me. I went through so much pain and difficulties but on the end it was all worth it. Sometimes you cannot see God’s plan right away. Looking back I now know that he wanted me to get closer to Him and have peace.
Freedom and Jane
I used to have bad moments, moments that everything reminded me of him. They will get less and less . Now I can go to the beach, the same place we used to go fishing all the time. Not one thought of him. It took a long time to get there . Now I realize he never loved me, he never cared about me and I was a nuisance to him. Nothing was sincere about this man. Time after time he showed me his ugly side . Every day he blamed me for his misery, every day he let me know that I was not meeting his standard , that I was unloveable. Nothing was true and he wanted and he did destroy my self worth, my self esteem.
He once told my was old, fat, boring , nagging and my hair is too short. While I sobbed being curled up in a ball in my “hiding closet “, he went upstairs on the computer and told the co worker how hot and sexy she is.
So no, I did not lose my best friend, my husband , the father of my child. I Iost absolutely nothing. Instead I gained everything.
Kaya
How horrible for you it must have been to be insulted and put down like that. That’s just disgusting. You have come such a long way and are an inspiration to all.
I didn’t have the verbal torture as you did and i can’t say my problems compared to what you went through.
Mine wasn’t mean spirited generally. He was “kind and loving”, harder to despise and understand when he was caught at cheating and lying it made me question how a lovable and caring man could be so devious and such an ass…I do see it now and have to keep reminding myself what he’s done and mostly the words of such wise women on here that keeps me grounded xo
Cheating and lying is not kind and loving; it is mean spirited behavior. Kind and loving is caring about your well being and acting in your best interst all the time. If he talked as though he was kind and loving, it was lies to deceive you into thinking he actually is kind and loving, so that you would do what he wanted you to do. That is exploitation.
Kaya I hate how you felt. Until the very end, my ex never criticized the way I looked, he always told me everyone was so attracted to me – I didn’t realize that he was grooming me to be interested in bringing him another woman.
And what is it with the hair thing? My hair is a little below shoulder length and has been forever. So he had nothing to say about it, but he complained about his first wife and the wife that died who both cut their hair right after they got him to “sign on the dotted line” and everyone knows no man likes short hair. I don’t get it.
I’ve been thinking a lot about him the past week, and it’s uncomfortable. My therapist told me the body/mind remembers anniversaries and to expect this and recognize it for what it is, I don’t know if it’s the remnant of the holidays, my birthday coming up, having to think about the taxes or the 1st anniversary of the sale of the house coming up next month (I’d bet on this one). But something is keeping him on my mind. It’s disgusting.
You’re right, we lost nothing, because we had nothing. We only thought we did.
HanaleiMoon
I think your going through a valley for ALL the reasons you list.
I just found out I have a sinus infection. I have a low grade fever and extra aches and I feel just blue, no energy, like nothing I do is getting me where I need to go. I bet when this fever goes away, I won’t feel so tired and blue.
I bet when you process through this valley of shadows, you will feel better and more powerful.
And just in case, because stress causes flu’s, make sure you don’t have a low grade temp that’s draining your energy.
I like how kaya says she did not lose anything. I agree. I had lost myself actually, but once I was free of my ex, I found ME again and that felt pretty good.
Freedom15
Yes I agree with hearing his voice being difficult. Thank god I haven’t yet because that would be a problem. I was doing well all week and suddenly started to question “what if…, what did that mean…,he must be different this time”. I have refrained from contacting him thankfully and just hope to get over the hump.
Like you family is a godsend..they know nothing about this situation so it stops me from speaking about it.
Thanks for the kind words or encouragement freedom 🙂 good luck on day 7!!
Freedom15, good for you on the NC! I feel for you so much! I was the same with things that reminded me of him. But I promise, it gets better. A lot of my crap went down around the holidays and for the first two years I couldn’t even listen to any christmas music let alone decorate and I really love all things christmas. But this year, I was really fine, I could enjoy the holidays, decorate, listen to music, etc. He ruined enough of my life, and I won’t allow him to ruin anymore! Tomorrow is always a new day, a new start? As each day passes, the hurt/pain will lessen.
HM, I agree, makes perfect sense. Not long ago I was suddenly having this week of hell. My sleep was very restless, waking up several times. I was very emotional, and felt awful but nothing had happened that I should be feeling this way. It was like I fell ten steps backward. Finally days and weeks were passing where I never even had thoughts of my ex spath. I thought I was really in a good place. But my friend pointed out to me why my sudden emotional set back….. It was the anniversary of him trying to put me in jail. Ahhh…..perfect sense now!
Janedoe, don’t question yourself or him being different this time. Like I was posting last week when I came across that pic, similar thoughts of wondering if he’s different with her or will he mellow with age. Nope, no different, same spath no matter what. They may act or behave a little different with new partners and mirror them now , but the con artist, user, manipulater, cheater is still there and the same piece of crap as always. We have to remind ourselves of that, trust me, there’s still so many days that I start to question as well. We are strong, all of us here, and we will get through!
I’m thankful for everyone’s kindness, strength, and encouragement.
sasha
yes i know i shouldn’t question…its always there though…i think at times its impossible a person who i thought was so loving and caring, is capable of doing the crap he did…it just isn’t possible…maybe theres an explanation that he can give me for being this way….then i read…..and realize “am i insane? why would i care if there is an explanation for his sick behaviour?”
the proof is in the pudding i realize….lovebombing a couple weeks ago and making promises left and right and suddenly has no interest in emailing me…actions speak LOUDER than his words!! he hasn’t committed to one of his promises he wrote me about 3 weeks ago. once again he caught me and duped me…MF
its not advantageous to him at this point to write me…he doesn’t want anything at this moment..
i know mine didn’t do what yours tried by putting you in jail…but you sound as though you are doing ok 🙂
I finally cut him off in the game yesterday. My NP would play a dice game with me so we could talk through the messages. This is how we met up knew what we were doing. He being married would not get busted with us doing it this way. Well, as I have said he got busted with Amanda the girl staying at his home. So with all those text between them over 1,000 i know they were doing something even though he said they were not. I am very hurt over that and in spite of it continued to play this game with him as if nothing happened and I was ok with what he had done. He did send a message saying to me that I was a good person that he was sorry he hurt me and I did deserve better. Well the other day he is saying yes he wanted to canoodle again after everything settles down at home, he got back with the wife and over the weekend he said he doesnt want anything from anyone. Well, that was the last straw. He will not be screwing with me anymore. I said oh your girl Amanda probably doesnt mean her and I know he has been in contact with her even though he denies that. I said that I was too good for him and that he was the biggest asshole ever and that i am done playing the game with him. So i ended all the games with him and now in NC mode. I have to work with him but I will find strategic ways to avoid him. I have to. I have lost so much being with him and that he just kept taking. That is why i ended it. I was mocking myself. I want revenge still but i guess it doesnt matter. I am so empty inside and have no one to really speak to about this. My one friend said this was my mess and i have to clean it up and I could have ended this at anytime. I wish it was that easy.
freedom15
how is your day 7 going???
your progress seems a lot better than mine did at that point so I’m interested to see how you’re doing it….keep up the good work!
Jane, I’m doing ok. I stayed with my family overnight last night. Now I’m home. It is a beautiful day where I live. Been sitting outside trying to soak up some sun. Mentally preparing myself for a new week. Knowing that tomorrow will be a week since I’ve spoken to him. Lots of emotions, thoughts, wondering. I’m trying to stay positive. Trying to put other thoughts out of my mind. He is still in my head. I still hear his voice, see his face, etc. I wanted to email him and “yell” at him, I’ve wanted to call and leave a voicemail but I haven’t. I did write an email but didn’t send. It’s mostly my thoughts. Me asking questions I’ll never get the answers to.
So all in all, I suppose I’m doing ok. I know that he doesn’t give a damn about me. He doesn’t care about my feelings.
Thank all of you!
freedom15
sometimes we need to be alone and just reflect and get some perspective…sometimes i just don’t want to be with anyone and relish the chance i am in my car going somewhere, alone…i can really think there,
writing an email and not sending was so so therapeutic for me…wow it was so long but i kept it and read it over and over thinking “how is it possible in my lifetime, when i didn’t ask for this, that i would get involved like this?” …it gave me some clarity when i was doubtful to re read those unsent emails..and like you there are so many questions that never will be answered, truthfully anyway…are we better not knowing the answers OR hearing what they say and never knowing if its BS??? in some case i would rather not know what i wanted to know in the beginning, I’m past that and see a bit clearer..
don’t leave the voicemail, or send an email…last week when i was on the verge of breaking i contacted a friend who went through a very similar thing, but she was stronger than i am…she got rid of her N immediately and never ever looked back…when i spoke to her and she went through the details of him love bombing me at xmas and hearing the truth come out of her mouth, made me say “WOW!” he is a dick, he is a grown creepy man who will never ever change…and thanks to her and people here, i didn’t do it…if i could tell you how close i was to hitting the send button until she made me see…
thats what we are here for 🙂
I think…does he wonder what I’m doing, care what I think, have any feelings at all?? I’ve dealt w some mean people before but none like this. How just drops someone they said they loved, wanted to marry, etc. Who says that you are so Beautiful, perfect for them, their other half, etc and then drops them? Now I know who does. One wo a concious. One who will call eventually to say, I love you and I miss you. He’ll try to get me back. He’s done it more times than I can count. But this time, I feel armed w help and resolve. And whoever is his next victim, I feel sorry for them.
I make a promise to post as soon as he contacts me. Bc we all know that he will.
freedom
i wonder all the same things you do too…how could he say such beautiful things and then in the same breath act like nothing? why would a person want to become such a miserable human being?
you would think they have been told by so many people what type of person they are, don’t they have the will to try, just a little bit, to change?
can’t they say “look, i know i have N traits, i am trying so hard to get over this….”
It was called ‘moral insanity’ in the 19th century, which is an accurate description. Spaths are not delusional. They know right from wrong; they just don’t care. They choose 100% across the board to lie, cheat, steal, harm others, manipulate, deceive, etc., because they like the power and control. They like to harm others; my ex psychopath was sadistic.
Normal people do not understand it. I don’t really want to understand them.
janedoe, i am getting tested at the end of the month. he was sleeping with the girl he and his wife let stay at their home. He tried to lie to me that they werent doing anything and he swears nothing physical happened. he sent back and forth 1000 texts. thats more than he and i had and we were canoodling. So to this day he says nothing happened but i know better. i am working on NC but i work with my NP and its been really hard. The one day I did a hoover on him on purpose just to see what he would say. He is back with his wife as she kicked amanda out and then went to her parents. so he said he hasnt spoken to amanda and said he missed it with me and that he has to wait till things settle down at his house and he would probably do it again with me. I guess rite now he is on amanda bcs he isnt pursuing me and these were questions i asked him bcs i wanted to know. This is the most pain i have ever felt in a relationship. I am mad at myself for hoovering and i wanted to play with his head a little but i dont think it would even matter with him.
janedoe
Please dear, you were still being LOVEBOMBED when he was speaking sweetly to you. His REAL attitude showed when he accused you of trying to make him feel guilty about your miscarriage. Remember that? He had no tender feelings for you then. That HIM with his mask off.
You keep saying he’s was so NICE to you. No, he wasn’t. He was cheating on you for how long before he left you, but still tried to string you along… That’s not nice either. He wasn’t physically beating you up, but he was just getting started beating you emotionally.
Narcissists and sociopaths don’t change. Being the way they are WORKS for them, they get what they want and don’t have any guilt for it. They may SAY things, but it’s part of their schtick, their scam. They are NOT trying to get over anything, they are baiting traps for others and exploit whatever they catch. The fact is, they DON’T have the ability to FEEL so they aren’t miserable. They are pleasured by watching other peoples misery.
How could he say such beautiful things and then in the same breath act like nothing? ANSWER: ONLY a sociopath could do that as part of their scam. It’s a scam they know that works.
if i could get half the stuff i write in my heart n not just my head i would be so happy. i made a counselor cry today almost by the end of the session. literally on the verge of tears. a professional. my lifes so shitty. my lifes always been so shitty. didnt even tell her about the spath or the child that died. she didnt catch i still have 2 kids here. i gues shes just an empath?
my own choices have been so F’d up i forget how my life was even before. no wonder i made the idiotic choices duh
ive spent so long now with pl so down on me i have downplayed to extinction my shiiiiiitttttyyyy life. that i was dealt.
its making me sad tho to rly validate that. i wud rather ignore it cuz i cant fix that. only me. n i rly have littl hope i can fix me any more.
im used to ppl being horrified at my life but i usually can say inwardly, well my case is extreme. but to have sumone who deals with extremes, and shes not a young one, shes 60 prob, n shes upset…by the time i told her my mom had suicided she winced. that makes me sad. i tried not tell her stuff, it wasnt me being forthright. i hate that resigned but relieved look ppl get. i dont know wat to tell u but thank GOD its you n not me.
Aint
Do you sometimes wonder how you got to this age, having endured the most atrocious people and still stand tall enough to be seen by another? I can’t believe the things I’ve suffered during my 50 year life without being committed to a mental health facility…
I admitted myself to hospital last week to have my heart monitored and a stress test, as I’m in flight or fight mode and I’ve had some extreme thumping going on in my ear, as my heart rate climbs right along with my blood pressure. Anyway turns out I’m as strong as a 20 year old and none of the readings are showing I’m even considered a risk but I had to know and do it on a day off.
Your post touched me, not only because of the pain you’ve been through but also reminded me of the Dr’s response to my situation. She asked me why I was anxious and I told her, she cried, couldn’t fight back the tears and I was the one consoling her – makes me sad when people are sad for me even if I’m coping really well considering the circumstances. I’ll keep my comments on here from now on….
Undertheradar
You have a purpose which you have not yet fulfilled. All what you have experienced up to this point has been your school to prepare you. Special training for a special job.
Sane
One day honey I’ll be sane and free as well! (I’m sure I’ve said that on another thread lol)
I also agree with my life leading me to this situation so thanks for the confirmation ★
yeah i could see an MD being shocked into crying, they dont deal with emotional stuff, but a therapist? for goodness sake, thats their stinking job!
thats wat upset me.
i was forever comforting ppl wen i was widowed, at least after the first couple wks post-death. went on for yrs as i wud run into ppl that didnt know. got old, but i just did it cuz my life had always been so F’d up that i just didnt know any different. was just used to being that one thats strong.
if he could have just freakin lived i could have gotten some healing n my life could have been so incredibly different. so real. instead of this constant hell i simply live thru.
im tired of living thru shyt. i’d like to live a LIFE like other ppl get to.
Aint
I know your kind of strength because I’m known for mine. My baby sister refers to me as resilient and to this day (6months) hasn’t ever asked how I’m doing because she thinks I’m some sort of freak that doesn’t suffer?… The thing is, I am! I was her mother because my mother was off her face on antidepressants – I was everyone’s mother, including my drunken violent father’s mother along with the rest of my brothers and sisters. It didn’t stop there either but the worst of it I’ve learned to keep to myself because no one else can handle it.
As for counseling, they were kind enough to listen and show enough compassion but it never helped as much as my own strength – I’m sure you’re the same. Congratulate yourself for still trying to improve, for still wanting to have a better life because I’ve got girlfriends that are addicted to antidepressants for reasons I’d gladly swap them for mine – the only thing keeping them above ground is those antidepressants, I’d rather be strong!
Aint
For one, life “like other people live” might not be all that it appears. Just don’t know. Ever read the poem about Richard Cory by Edwin Arlington Robinson?
I agree with Undertheradar, you are so much stronger than you realize. Others see it. Their tears may be just affirmation that you are an amazing survivor. Take it as a badge of honor.
You can turn your test(s) into a testimonial. This is the material of great novels and movies. And that is no small thing.
Don’t be cheated of your victory by “stinking thinking”. That is what turns good people into alcoholics, drug addicts and murderers. That is so not you!
RICHARD CORY
~By Edwin Arlington Robinson~
Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.
And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
“Good-morning,” and he glittered when he walked.
And he was rich—yes, richer than a king—
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.
So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.
Aint
I thought about your post and the reaction of your therapist and an idea crossed my mind…
I’m grateful for their tears, their tears show me their human side – at least I know I not talking to a sociopath! Which would you rather?
since i was 14 ppl have looked at me with pity…thats wen my mom died. i am beyond tired of freakin ppl out n making them feel good about their awful lives.
a professional should not be shocked at my shitty life. ppl in therapy dont have good lives for petes sakes! they have rly messed up lives. thst she was, drives home how screwed up mine is.
and im rly tired of being the unfixable case.
so yeah i’d like to have someone hang it together at least till im out the door.
im just pissed and now its monday evening…still upset.
its not that i think other have real lives, i know their lives. i know whats not going rite as well as wat is. n my friends n family members may have trials but they have support, they have finances, they have resiliance, they have emotional reserve, they have fun, they have memories, they have a future.
i was close to many different kinds of families n would even go stay with my kids n help out at times. my friends n i talked very deeply. i know ppl do not have my kind of life. my aunt (only 6yrs older than i) lost her son at 19, she still was horrified that my daughter, on top of everything else crappy in my life thus far, died at 20. she had been divorced from an ass who wudnt pay child support n had taken her on a fabulous wkend away to tell her he was leaving her. shes been thru some shyt. she still tells me to stop crucifying myself n that my lifes been ridiculous.
other ppl get to have real lives, human n with mistakes, but i am just enduring existence.
Ain’t,
Perhaps the counselor’s response was compassion, rather than pity or shock?
Your strong negative reaction to her response may be because you sensed something was ‘off’ about her. Or it may be that her response triggered a bad experience from your past. After some time goes by and your reaction eases a bit, it might be helpful for you to figure out where your strong feelings came from, whether it is your subconscious telling you she is not the right counselor for you, or it is bringing up emotional pain you’ve experienced in the past.
Undertheradar, I’m so glad you checked out well”that is one thing at least that can be off your mind! It’s scary the things our bodies do when we’re under so much stress.
On the subject of sharing our circumstances with others, I had a surprising thing happen yesterday. I’ve stopped saying anything about it to anyone, because the response is never right. I’ve been working with a real estate agent for around 5 months now looking for a home to buy. Because of the discard, my financial circumstances have taken a severe beating and my price range is very low for the area I live in unless I want to live in a very undesirable area. I want to be able to afford what I would have pre-discard, but it’s impossible at this point, and being a homeowner again is going to be a big step in getting myself back.
So she’s been nothing but nice, and I like her. Of course the limited selection in my price range comes up in conversation all the time and it really makes me feel like a loser. Having to look at “starter homes” at age 59 after I had attained so much in life and had it stolen from me is disheartening, no matter how many times I tell myself I am so fortunate to even be able to do this. On top of it, my mom is in financial dire straights and needs to make a change and it is becoming increasingly obvious that I need to find a place that she will be able to live with me in. Again, I’m fortunate to have my mom and want to do everything I can to make her life comfortable, but I’m already struggling to figure out how to deal with my own needs. I feel like I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t, and no choice will be the right one. Every, and EVERY time I come back from looking at houses I am an emotional wreck. I took a break over the holidays but I have to get back on it. I can’t get my life back on track until I know where I’m going to live permanently. The pressure of having to make all the decisions and carry all the weight alone is overwhelming. Meanwhile, I feel like my life is slipping away, day by day. I’m just treading water.
Anyway, to get back to the point of the story, after looking at a couple of homes yesterday we standing by our cars talking about the last crappy house we had looked at (which was pushing my budget to the breaking point) and I said, look, here’s the deal: and gave her the condensed paragraph story of what had happened to me and ended it saying I had no idea I was involved with a sociopath.
Her eyes got huge and this is what she said: I know exactly what you’re talking about because I was involved with one too.
SHE UNDERSTOOD!!!!!!
When we parted for the day, she said, I liked you before but now I like you even better. Thank you so much for sharing that with me.
It doesn’t change the challenge I have in front of me, but it did give me a moment of fresh air to see understanding on someone’s face and hear it in their words.
I’m just exhausted, trying to get my life back on track. After a lifetime of being an overachiever, now even my best effort seems futile and like giving up. There have been milestones in the past 3 1/2 years where I’ve thought ok, now this is handled, now it’s going to get better, and that’s the time that something unexpected rears it’s ugly head. I thought selling the shared home was going to be the ultimate freedom and kick off my fresh start and I feel like all I do is stand at the window and think “what else can I do to try to get back on track”.
I feel emotionally ok, but it seems like I just can’t get anything off the ground in a good direction.
Sorry if this sounds whiny. I’m really not. I’m just so tired, so exhausted, of trying to clean up the same mess day after day (yes, while he’s enjoying his ocean view home with his new wife and hasn’t missed a beat) and not seeming to make any progress. I MISS MYSELF. I spent my whole life working to make sure I would never be in the position I am in. And he made certain that I lost it all in what felt like an (seven year) instant.
I feel like no matter what I do, it will be a mistake.
HM Wow, your story is impressive. And, it hardly sounds whiny. It sounds more like a person discovering themselves in a situation in life which is overwhelming. I immediately thought of the poem “IF” by Rudyard Kipling…
“If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream — and not make dreams your master;
If you can think — and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings — nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run —
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And — which is more — you’ll be a Man, my son!”
—-
I used to read this poem as a young girl and admire how men could have such awesome challenges and be such heroes of character.
Back in my naivety, it never occurred that men could be such cowards as we have seen. Their cowardice as humans is stunning. They wound the meaning of the word “man.”
But, I think the poem can inspire mankind — not just the male sex — but, women today — especially women.
We can be more “men” than they could ever be. Shame on them. But, we can get our glory from their cowardice and manlessness. We can rise above the ashes.
Your circumstances are daunting and cruel considering his wicked basking in his stolen situation. It all seems incredibly wrong, unjust, cruel and impossible, even hopeless.
But we have to hold onto hope, for once we let go of that, we are toast. We cannot let them have that satisfaction.
I believe that despite the apparent upside-down-ness of things, that you can rise above, that this is not how they have to be forever. It is daunting, but it is not over.
Re-group as you are doing. Stay encouraged. Is it not worth all the world that you are still you, with your integrity (while he has taken the low road to who he is becoming?)
We don’t know what the future holds, but this is just a slice of time. Tomorrow you could (will) be on top (maybe in a different way), and his stolen lifestyle destroyed…(but his character fixed).
This is just a few chapters in your life. The whole story is not completed. The ending can be glorious. And I believe that you will climb up on top all this garbage, shake yourself off and climb up and out.
No guts no glory. I am woman, hear me roar!
saneandfree, thank you for your wise words and encouragement!
I do feel whiny because I know I am so fortunate to have my health, sanity, and a retirement income that he couldn’t touch (and he would have if there had been a way”thank GOD we weren’t married).
I had never purchased anything with another person in my life (even kept property separate in my marriage) until I bought the house with him. We planned for years, and I always held something back, afraid, wanting to protect myself. He spent so long, convincing me, showing me how it would work financially (now it seems, soothing me like you would a sweating horse) that I finally said to myself what else are you looking for, what proof, what are you so afraid of (little did I know), people do this EVERY DAY and IT IS FINE. I went into it with an open heart and full trust.
Gah!
I quit a great job with great pay and benefits to take an early retirement in order to make the move. I sold a home I had owned for 20 years and would now be paid off in less than 2 had I kept it. I did this to go on to something even better, a dream fulfilled. Had I kept going on the way I was, the sky was the limit…
I used to think he would give up and move on if I didn’t get my act together (there’s a laugh for you) and stop being afraid to make a commitment. We had crunched the numbers, again and again. We could do this, easily. He showed he was all in on the plan. Right before we found the dream house, I remember him working out the numbers for me again, and me saying – but – what if something goes wrong, and one of us is left alone with the house – neither of us could make this on our own.
And he said – you still don’t get it, do you? For the first time in your life, you don’t have to do everything all alone, you have a partner, a person to shoulder half the load, someone who wants to make your life easier, get you the things you want. He said, every time we go over the numbers, you are trying to figure out how you could handle it all on your own, and you just don’t get it – we’re doing it together!!
Shortly after that, we found the right house and less than 90 days later, he pulled the rug out from under me.
I did have to handle it all on my own, and I figured out how to do it, at great personal expense and sacrifice. I did everything I could to keep my head above water and not ruin my credit. I carried that house that needed two incomes to support, paid all the unexpected repair bills (swiss cheese roof as it turns out) and my attorney. I painstakingly put every dollar into savings I could. My therapist told me she had never met anyone more disciplined in her life.
I was AMAZING. I have no idea why I’m floundering now. I just can’t make heads or tails of things and am afraid of my own shadow. So uncharacteristic of me.
I just wanted to add to my last rant that I do have a theory of why I’m floundering now.
When he pulled the rug out from under my life, I had a full tank of reserves – I was self confident, was coming off years of career success, had been financially stable and had always made confident decisions for myself. I pulled on those reserves when he abandoned me and just said, “let’s knock this s**t out” and just did it one minute, one hour at a time. It wasn’t easy, and I was crawling on my belly a lot of the time, but I just kept plugging. I had a light at the end of the tunnel – at some point, the house would sell and I could get back to my “normal” life.
During that time, I learned to hope for the best but prepare for the worst, and even with that attitude, I NEVER expected that I would lose ALL my money when the house sold. But I did. And more.
So, my theory is, once the house was sold, I had used up my whole tank of reserves and I don’t have anything left to pull from. Getting back to my “normal’ life was a pipe dream – it doesn’t exist anymore.
H Moon,
I relate to not being able to ‘go back’ to what life was before. I don’t know how much of that is due to the psychopath experience, and how much to other changes and just plain old getting older. I experienced drastic change when I was widowed, when my son was born, when I changed my religious beliefs, and other times, that prevented me ever going back to something.
I’m trying to create my life in the present reality and integrate into it all my past experiences good and bad, including the spath, the mistakes I’ve made, the successes I’ve had. I’m trying to live in the present more now that I feel like at best I don’t have forever, and to have some goals and direction at the same time. I’m also trying to find the right balance between serving others to whom I’m responsible and taking care of myself.
HanaleiMoon
I SO understand what you wrote, esp this last sentence “I feel like no matter what I do, it will be a mistake.”
YES. And at my age (almost the same as yours), a mistake will finish me off.
I learned the VERY HARD and HORRIBLE lesson of the reality of life, that laws only apply to people who will abide by them, NOT to the ones who know that the law will NOT be applied to them.
All the life lessons I have learned have left me FROZEN, unable to make certain decisions. I haven’t worked outside of my business in 25 years. I can get minimum wage jobs. BUT I don’t have the energy to work that hard for that little. I am NOT 35 anymore. I am sick, beaten down, and so VERY VERY TIRED.
Because I married and divorced a sociopath, I have NO insurance, yet I am sick. The savings cushion that I had is GONE. He got almost ALL our assets in the divorce because I chose to get away rather than lose it all anyway in a legal fight (kaya48 hit the lottery in her attorney, I couldn’t hardly find one to take my case. And even then, the settlement I did get? Was due to ME, not to ANYTHING any attorney did.
I AM so much better off not being with him. But I am left with an aftermath of exhaustion that I can’t seem to recover from. ANd worse, I find out this is NORMAL to be at this physical level and this age. YET, I NEED to recover from financial disaster and I NEED the energy to do that. I HAVE to compete with ambitious driven YOUNG folks who aren’t having to overcome a socoiopath.
Before someone replies with “check my adrenals or thyroid”, that’s NOT the problem. I’d like to hear from others who are struggling to find the energy at an older age, struggling with the fear of wrong decisions because they know they no longer have a cushion to recover from a wrong decision any more… for someone who has not worked a job outside the home for all their married life, please share what has worked for you… worked for you to get a job when you have NO resume to fill out, and how to know when decision A is better than decision B when you’ve learned that either one will lead to disaster.
Yes, while my ex, who stole community assets all for himself with the help of the bank and the community, is living well on the fruits of my labor. Don’t be bitter people say. Bitter? I am struggling to keep a roof over my head and for food. I have NO insurance, NO medical care. I don’t have TIME to be bitter. But no, there is NO justice when you find out you married a sociopath.
Sorry, HanaleiMoon, I guess you need that same as me, and I sure didn’t help you. I pray we ALL find REAL guidance.
NWHSOM, you actually did help, if only to remind me that I’m not the only one in this boat.
I identify with the things you say here: I feel that a mistake will finish me off (yet doing nothing will likely finish me off too). I need to recover from financial disaster. I no longer have a cushion. (I add to this I’m my mom’s safety net and she needs one. I have a 52 year old alcoholic brother who lives with her and does nothing but eat her groceries, watch her cable and send hostile vibes my way, but that’s another story for another place.)
I am lucky to have fully paid health insurance with my retirement plan and for that I am grateful every day.
I have a profession that I worked very hard to build. I still have those skills and want very badly to use them, but I stepped out of the game at 55”at my peak, but the worst time possible for a woman in a man’s profession, if you want to try to get back in. My contacts have proven to be fair weather and no one remembers the help I gave them so generously when I was in a position to do so. I am in a technical profession and was a high level manager – no one will hire me for an entry or mid-level job, plus, I don’t have the skills a recent college grad will have for those jobs. I can manage and run the whole shooting match, but those jobs are few and far between and you need to “know someone”. I can’t even qualify for minimum wage jobs (no retail experience, etc.).
My situation is different, but essentially the same as yours.
Yep, I too am left with an aftermath of exhaustion (and there’s nothing physically wrong with me and I’m not clinically depressed) when just 4 years ago, I was on top of the world, had the energy of a 35 year old and was usually the most cheery person in the room.
My greatest fear is that damage can be done to us that can’t be undone no matter how hard we work at it. I worked for everything I had, nothing was handed to me, I did it all myself – it seems like this should be just another challenge to tackle and conquer – yet, it’s not. It’s DIFFERENT, and NWHSOM, I know you get that, right down to your bones.
Don’t be bitter – ooh, how I hate that phrase. Bitter? I’m so pissed off that I can’t see straight.
Not
Ok I’m here!
I left a “real” job to have kids but did that job without a degree. When I went back into the industry, they paid me a pittance to work long hours doing a very stressful job so when my son became an athlete I needed to find a job that could be done around his commitments – enter cleaning work! Not a prestigious position but I started my business from scratch, doing a letterbox drop, one day a week and slowly built up my business. I have 4 women working for me now and make 3 times the weekly income I’ve ever made before. I’ve also purchased 2 houses using this income and the bank has pre approved a loan for over half a mil to take over the debt on those 2 houses when my spath goes to jail – that was the easy one…
Now for the hard one! When I hit 45, I could no longer pull the energy required to clean (in peak holiday season) between 5-6 houses a day for 6 days of the week. I started experimenting with different diets until I found the strength and stamina I’d had at 30 = Paleo was the solution! At 50 I can out work any of my twenty something girls. It was harder to switch to my new lifestyle than it was to find customers. I’m 100% paleo now and have been for 2 years with only the occasional cheat meal with friends, every couple of months or so.
You will find enough information online regarding Paleo lifestyles and you don’t need to be qualified to letterbox drop for some cleaning work to get you started.
I hope that helps?
UnderTheRadar
THANK YOU!! That really does help! I was actually looking at the Paleo diet today. I needed something simple to follow. I am not a foodie, in spite of my refined palate for chocolate and ice cream. 🙂 As a solo person, I just want to eat and go. I have NO problem eating the same leftovers for a week. I try to make a HUGE pot of soup and then freeze half to keep it safe. I eat the first half for breakfast and dinner for 4 days, pull the second half out to thaw and while that thaws I eat chix/vegs, then when the second half is thawed, I eat that for four days. Repeat the cycle. See how boring I am with my food? But I find if I have good hearty food to eat, I am able to resist sweets.
How did you find your houses to clean? Are they long time clients? How did you price your jobs… by the job or by the hour? I am so afraid to hire help these days! There’s so many regulations! Any advice about discovering what those regulations are for your kind of employees? Do you have to provide workmans comp? I promise I will not be your competition but I am realistic. We have a huge illegal population here who will work for very low wages to squeeze out the locals, then they raise their rates after the competition is run out of town. How do you compete with that kind of scenario? I can’t play the squeeze game.
I will experiment to find the best paleo balance for me starting in the morning.
Not
Wow I’m glad I could help! My kids moved away from me when I moved out 6 months ago and only come for dinner once a week – tonight we all had my Paleo version of Lasagna, they gave it a big thumbs up but I’m not that impressed with my adaption to white sauce – I will be eating it for days and don’t mind. I also make my own version ice cream now but I’ve been playing with this lifestyle for 5 years (with a house full of taste testers) so you will learn to adapt so you still get your sweet treats 😉
Work – I’m in Australia and we don’t have the same problem with illegals that you do. (I think we bombed their bosts until it went public… wink wink) I was lucky to have been given some work from a Real Estate office and they guided me on price. I think your tradesmen are cheaper than we are? I charge A$40 per hour but I’m also in New South Wales which is the most expensive state to live.
We also have our own set of rules but I’ve got a background in accountancy and finance so I’m switched on to all our regulations and how to find them.
Lastly, some of my weekly clients, have had me clean for them for so long that I’ve watched their kids grow up and go to university, one has recently had their first child and I remember when she “became a woman!”
Good luck with it and keep me posted 🙂
I have several friends and family members who clean houses. They generally got their jobs word of mouth and some advertising. It has been a good source of income, and those who are flexible and provide a good service get more work and can charge more. Sometimes the cleaning job can develop into an errand running, personal assistant job. Principles on how to be successful in any job apply.
I have a professional degree and work part time since my son was born 19 years ago. I live in a 750 sq foot house on a postage stamp size lot in a working class section of town. I would not want to live in a big house in a more affluent subdivision because I don’t think I would get to know the neighbors as well and do things with them as much. I enjoy the closeness and casualness and friendliness of people who have openings in their lives for new friends and acquaintances.
I also find pursuing my interests leads to friendships rather than pursuing finding friends and dating relationships. Just doing what one is interested in for it’s own sake can be fulfilling. I know that some locations are easier than others. My town has a lot of opportunities to do fun things and socialize.
Being interested in others, their problems, their lives, without expectation of anything can be fulfilling, too.
HanaleiMoon….
I’m the same age as you and went through the devastation that the spath threw at me….the lies, the cheating and most certainly, the manipulation. I owned a home, too. It was a small home I purchased after my divorce. He helped by putting a lot of work and dollars into that small home. Because of that I often thought he ultimately should reap some of the financial benefit since he paid for and did much of the work. So, I decided to sell him the home, thinking all along we’d still move forward with our lives together. However, after I signed the offer to purchase I realized something was up with him, so I backed out. To make a long story short….he sweet talked and manipulated me into resigning the offer as if our relationship was going to continue on….even though I suspected there was another woman in the picture. Whenever I asked, he always said NO. So, I did resign and sold the home to him. The day we closed, he looked directly into my eyes and said, “I was nice to you right up until close because I play this game better than you”. I shall never, ever forget those words. I found out about 1 1/2 years later that he had been seeing someone else for months prior to close…and he knew that if I had known that, I would never have sold him my home.
So, I moved away…2,000 miles away for a new start. I have missed my small, comfortable, sweet home, but realize what life has thrown at me. I live in an apartment now in a nice area but like you, HM, would love once again to have my home. My financial situation, too, puts me in a place where I may likely not find what I’m looking for…but I’ll continue onward.
What I do know is that God has a plan for me. I have my health, my children, my friends and family. I have a career that I really enjoy….these are things that the spath could never take away from me. He got my house, but he gets no more.
I truly believe that we have become stronger women has a result of these circumstances. They hurt like hell, but when we make it through to the other side, life is good again.
Stay strong my friends….
carolann
Cannh, my heart just breaks at hearing the cruelty of his words to you. I don’t even know what else to say.
Cannh
You are so right, God has a plan for you.. “plans not for woe or for disaster, but a for future full of hope.”
No matter what age.
God is so much greater than our circumstances. And, He loves to show Himself strong on our behalf. Truth.
I think it would be so nice if I had ANY family or friends. My birth family and my ex are cut from the same cloth. I was okay being an “orphan”.
I have made some friends here but they don’t know about my life with a sociopath and I don’t tell them. I don’t want to poison the water there. So I am ALONE, with no emotional support whatsoever, except for you all here on LF. But no connections, no networking, no inside info about jobs. And no one to understand why my resume is blank with no references for the 25+ years where I used to live.
I didn’t just lose my home and my retirement and my health. I lost the intangibles…my friends, my support, my community. And these days, it seems that people are SO self entitled and narcissistic and that’s NORMAL! I am the odd one out.
Strong? I have integrity and honor and empathy and dignity. But they don’t pay the bills. And time marches on… with no opportunities in sight…
NWHSOM, I understand completely that you have no emotional support outside of here. I’m in that same boat too.
I have my mom, but she is very enmeshed with the horror of my brother. I have no other family. I am the trustee of her estate (basically, her house) and I am terrified that if something happens to her while she owns the house, it will send me into bankruptcy. I would be responsible for the house payment and all home expenses, plus the utilities, because in this state, I wouldn’t be able to remove my brother so the house could be sold without going through formal eviction. My attorney warned that even though my brother couldn’t afford to hire an attorney, many attorneys would take him on contingency since they would see the house as an asset and the inheritance that my mom has tried so hard to preserve for us would be eaten up. I hope my mom lives forever, and I hope she will sell the damn house and enjoy the money.
But know how you feel being totally alone, because I am too. I have two friends in the state I moved from, and I am cautious to not do anything that could jeopardize them.
There is not ONE person here in my home state that is a friend. I spent a 35 year career here building and nurturing relationships, a network and connections. Not one of those is interested in talking to me”I wrote here about one who contacted me about a job, fed me a bunch of promises and then fell off the face of the earth. The reality is, most people (present company excepted) are out for themselves and if they have what they want, they don’t care what happens to anyone else. Some of these people are people who I brought hundreds of thousands of dollars of work to over the years, some are ones who said that anytime I was ready to make a move, to let them know, they had a place for me. Honestly? I’ve knocked people off my reference list because they’ve just let me down so much that I don’t want to use them anymore. The few people I’ve been able to talk to are shocked that someone with my background and reputation hasn’t been snapped up, but they have nothing to offer either. NOT ONE person has made a follow up call to me, when a little bit of kindness would make such a difference to me. Even worse, I’m sure some people feel a little bit glad that I’m “down and out”.
I lost so many intangibles too, and it seems like they all added up to my identity.
My weekly volunteer shift at the museum has saved my life. I see many of the same people each week and that tiny bit of continuity gives me a little stability for 4 hours a week. It’s actually pathetic – I know they go on to their lives when they leave, and probably don’t give me a second thought, but their friendly greeting or chatting makes my week. I got my hair done last Saturday and a couple of hours chatting with the hairstylist about celebrities and news stories is roughly the equivalent of a 2 week tropical vacation for me.
The sense of being all alone is probably the worst thing of all. I have no words of wisdom for you, NWHSOM, except want you to know, I truly understand.
Cannh
Sometimes I get so tired of being strong. Sometimes I wish I could just be vulnerable and rest my vigilance.
I have a secret desire. To run into someone’s sociopath (not mine) and KNOW who they are. They wouldn’t affect me emotionally b/c I don’t have any history with them, but I sure would like to mess up their day, drop a cup of coffee on them accidentally of course, close the elevator door in their face, or some such.
Ohhhh, my wickedness! See, as much as I want to thing myself a good person, a little wickedness on someone else’s sociopath would feel pleasurable to me. Someone who is such an ass as your Cannh, I would enjoy that wee bit of being wicked.
Dear Not, I would be totally thrilled to MAKE YOUR DREAM COME TRUE!
Watch me be a virtual FAIRY GODMOTHER on this issue, I will be delighted to send you all the info you need to do the number on my personal spath.
PLEASE!! BLOW OUT THOSE BIRTHDAY CANDLES AND MAKE YOUR WISH TODAY!!! In fact, you are LATE on your request, please hurry and I will PAY you for the pleasure of seeing your wish fulfilled.
No holds barred, do whatever you want, show no mercy, your karma will be intact at the end no matter what you do. 🙂
I love you, Hanalei. Thank you for everything.
xox N/C
H Moon,
Have you gotten another opinion re your mom’s house situation? I’m not an attorney, and I don’t know your state, but it seems like your attorney may not have conveyed accurately your responsibilities as a trustee. Something about it seems like it may not be accurate.
HM
I feel your pain and grief, bewilderment and despair. Your story is a nightmare. Tragic. Unbelievable.
And, yet with these spaths…it is SOP. Which is in itself unbelievable. 🙁
As I was reading your story, what came to my mind — about why it feels so hard to recover yourself — is the wicked betrayal and treachery, the diabolical deliberate fraud — the Love Fraud. It is the worst cut. To manipulate deceptively to use and abuse and cheat, using one’s love and commitment and heart and goodness…well, I cannot think of anything lower.
It attacks the most sacred of humanity — our love and trust.
I know that it is the abject callous betrayal and treachery which causes me to stagger and faint. It wounds the heart and soul and threatens to wipe out our life-force.
I have to hold onto myself and say that was him, that is who he has become. But, it is not me.
When people do that (love fraud) they literally destroy their own souls. Not that they care since they are so hardened in heart and conscience. But, HM, they are to be pitied beyond anything.
I know that does not change your circumstances and where you find yourself now. But…how can I put this? He is spending and wasting all his “life-source capital” but, you, by not retaliating, by not becoming like him…you are building resources in yourself that will see you through this valley.
It is just a valley. It is not forever. Hang on. Believe in yourself. Even if that is hard to do right now, know that we believe in you. You WILL overcome, you WILL rise above this, you WILL have a great story of victory…you will look back and see that this was the catalyst to becoming who you will be. A POWERHOUSE.
Hi HM-
Most folks here think of me as the “Gadfly” of Sexual Assault by Fraud law, a title I’ll happily wear! But what I do in real life is… I’m a Licensed Real Estate Broker in NY State.
I have a recommendation to make to help you get back on your financial feet. If it’s at all possible, purchase a home with a spare bedroom or a den you can convert into a bedroom. By doing so, you can begin renting the space so you can stabilize your income.
For folks who have existing homes and can’t move, or even people who rent, if you can convert a portion of your space so that it generates income, it will help you recover your financial footing and move ahead.
Craigslist is a great, free way to advertise. Be sure to check references!! Also, be sure to include that they must be socially responsible and responsible for property damage in your written agreement with them. That way, you’ll have the means to evict them if they behave in an offensive fashion toward you.
All the best-
Joyce
Joyce, you’re right, this is a great idea. The home that had to be sold had the ideal setup for more than one tenant and I went so far as to advertise and talk to a few folks”but couldn’t pull the trigger. My trust was too blown at that point to take a risk that they might do something that would hurt me (leave the door open and let my animals out accidentally, damage the house, etc.). I know there are exponentially more good people in the world than bad, but still. This will be something I consider in the future.
JM_Short
So I understand that you’ve rented out a room in your house and got enough income to cover the taxes and the additional insurance and cost of utilities and still made enough extra over those costs to provide reliable income? And you found your renters on Craigslist? Did you do this recently? After paying the extra expenses, how much more income did you earn?
Thanks!
NWHSM-
Sorry but going through the numbers of my personal situation is a little too specific.
I doubt whether it will affect your insurance costs, and the utility increase for 1 person isn’t all that huge. In fact, you can add-on “utilities” to the price your charge them, as well as “wifi”.
It does not add to your tax bill on your property, although you need to pay taxes on the surplus income beyond the expenses. It’s only a percentage of your profits, however.
Joyce
jm_short
I was interested if you had actually done it because I did look into it and I did run the numbers. So I really did want your experience.
My profit would be $150/mo as long as I can control the costs. $150 for the loss of privacy and the risk of a stranger. My insurance def goes up nearly $700/yr, and as you point out, so would my Fed/State taxes. As would all my utilities b/c I am pretty sure a renter would expect heat/ac and hot water every day, all of which I try to keep to a minimum b/c I don’t have resources to pay unpredictable bills.
NWHSM-
You can charge for utilities and wifi.
Return will differ according to your location and the condition of your space. Living in an urban environment with high demand could bring in greater return than living in a rural location.
If you pay $700 in additional insurance cost, but add $8,000 per year to your gross income, it could be well worth the price.
You need to evaluate what you could charge in your area. Take a look a Craigslist and see what others are asking.
Joyce
i know sumone who charges $600 a month, but no wifi or cable. they have use of house too, not just the room. but they stay mostly in their room. he cud not live there without renting a room out. his rent is $900 a month but it is a whole house. still i’d just a little place myself. this person needs to have the finer thingsin life tho. he always lives above his means. i see nothing wrong with living within ur means even if it means in someones basement. heat n a roof are kinda basic needs 😉
of course i wud expect the person to be bettering their situation too. unless they were unable to be functional.
Joyce
I like your can do attitude but again, I have to be practical. I can only charge a normal rent for my area, not for other peoples areas. Sure I could charge more for rent, but people have expectations. People are not willing to pay more and get less. There’s no wifi.
I think you missed my post where I shared my analysis and that my profit would be $150/month. Unless someone here of LF have insight beyond what I have examined, $150/mo is the most profit I can expect for my area, taking into account normal rents, and the additional expenses incurred. And around here, Craigslist is asking to be robbed and murdered. It’s in the news so much for all the scams/cons/and sociopaths that I had no idea that people even used it anymore.
JM_Short
I think I have been a little tough on you. To explain:
In my defense, I never asked for your financial numbers. I asked if you had actually done what you were advising. Your reluctance to answer causes me to question whether your advice is dangerous because you don’t know, you haven’t experienced what you advise.
I am struggling now and as I said, at my age, I don’t have the luxury of mistakes. I have NO cushion. And I am sorry to want assurances from you, and sorry that wanting those assurances that you actually have done what you advice is making me a little hyper anxious.
I hope you understand that I am grateful for your desire to help and now that I’ve explained, I hope you understand why your advice increased my anxiety and increased my overwhelming fear of doing something that will worsen my life, not help give me any relief.
And if I missed your assurance that you were experienced, then I apologize. I can read words and miss them, it’s part of my stress response.
Joyce, I am licensed in another state and have considered the same sorts of arrangements.
Heartbreakingly, I had expected (and this is hard to admit but hey it is just you guys, right?) that my ex and I might work things out, when I bought my home.
Or in the alternative, that there might be a child or even a grandchild or two, coming to live with me.
Instead I’ve ended up alone, and let’s face it, housing for one is way expensive. Not to mention…so lonely. I have seen Retirement home housing and know you have too, in which it is clear that the old folks just passed away and the kids put the place on the market…I so do not want to end up there unless there is a surviving partner in the bed….a grandchild at my side…or something!!
but our licenses only go so far, and while homes are for sale, lives are not…so I’ve been online in Search mode for awhile. It is depressing to be a RE broker assisting others at finding housing, when you have nobody to live with yourself. 🙁
Thanks for listening (again).
A Single lady friend of mine bought a small 2 bedroom condo and did just that – she rented the spare bedroom. She rented to acquaintances, friends of friends and acquaintances, people she met through friends and work. It’s a bit of a hassle, but worthwhile to her.
Another thing that has financially helped several people I know over the past year or so if health insurance is an issue is to go through the exchange. Regardless of one’s politics, what I’ve heard from others and my own experience is that it has saved money, and in some cases a lot. A family member earning triple digits went through the exchange and found better insurance for less. A friend who works as a server at a chain restaurant and has had trouble affording insurance from her earnings got highly subsidized insurance. The subsidy is is based on one’s earnings, not one’s financial assets.
NWHSOM, I think what Joyce meant was that any financial specifics that she experienced would not likely apply to you or any of us, since we all live in different places and have different situations.
The state I moved from and the state I am now living in have very different income levels and to a lesser extent, lifestyles. My current state is affluent, and rents are higher. The other state is poorer, and rents are lower, but it is common for people to have studios or guest cottages they rent. Depending on your part of the country/world, the income potential varies widely.
When I researched this, I found that including utilities in the rent is best. People do expect heat, and most will expect cable and wifi. That might be different in your area. Another option I explored was renting out space as office say a tax preparer, writer, etc. so people would be there during the day and not at night, and not want to use the kitchen. Another idea is renting space as storage, or even RV parking”this is a good passive way to generate a little income. Depending on where you live, another idea is renting a room for vacationers (if you live near attractions people come to visit). There are websites to do this on (air bnb for example). This seems like a little more work, since you need to do housekeeping for them.
You get the idea”I looked into all of these and in the end, didn’t find the right fit and wasn’t ready to take the chance (I also had to worry that as my ex was part owner of the house, he might not approve if he found out and didn’t want to deal with that). The house is now sold, but if I was still there, at this point, I’d consider doing any of these, even if it only generated a few hundred dollars a month. I got very good at finding ways to build up a savings – selling things on ebay and craigslist (always had good experiences), bartering and then putting what I saved into savings.
I inched my way VERY slowly, and started keeping a tally of my savings right next to my computer. I vowed to myself to figure out a way to make things work and never take any money out of savings (and I started from almost zero after he bailed) and in over 3 years, I have never taken a penny out. There were months when nothing went in, but nothing has come out.
Another idea you might consider is dog walking or pet or house sitting. No overhead!
Hanalai
I’m sure we all feel your pain. I know I’m a lot messier than I want to be at this stage and certainly thought I’d be running around fist pumping the air all the time but I’m not – my future scares the hell out of me!
I’ve had the same wins with strangers snd felt connected on occasions when I least expected it – talking about the spath has never been the problem, I can explain that one, but can’t explain some of the other traumatic experiences I’ve had without being pulled into an emotional black hole so I keep quiet and try not to allow those memories to surface. They hurt other people as much as I was hurt so I don’t talk to avoid the pain I’ll have to try and fix in someone else while I’m being the strong one, does that make sense?
I wish I could change our circumstances, for each of us, but I can’t. I’m in the same boat! I’d made sure I was set for life financially, now I don’t know if I can get a house, am I to start all over again at 50? Time will tell…
HM
i know how you felt when your agent was on your side…you finally felt that someone,, a real live person, finally hears you! and it felt good!!!!
i love to come on here because everyone has their stories and issues and we all relate so well, give advice and listen to advice…but when its a real live person, it almost makes you want to kiss them, its a relief..
you are allowed your bad days you’ve endured so much and look what you have achieved..theres no apologies necessary for being “whiny”..maybe you feel this way because being “trained” by an N makes us feel that if we talk about “ourselves” we are being selfish…
you’ve overcome the biggest hurdle in your life, so what if a little bump in the road gets you down…you will prosper and you will get over this bump…if you survived the life you had..you will survive this 🙂
you are such an inspiration to others, believe it when we do the same back to you xo
Jane doe
I was thinking about your ex. If he was a decent, respectable man, he would not even contact you in a way being married to his wife. You just don’t do that when you claim being committed to someone. And that’s what marriage means. You put your wifes needs before yours. He disrespects his wife and he betrays her by contacting you.
There is nothing good about this man.
I also tried to see some positive in my ex. Even gave him another chance after the “picture exchange”. He even went to marriage counseling with me. All the while he was still carrying on with the affair.
Like sane said, once they cross that line into adultery , there is no return.
I find it very interesting that your ex would proceed to live in a country that’s known for poverty being an American citizen. He could live here in the U.S.
The note that I received yesterday from my ex “I am being ignored for a year and a half and you are probably laughing at me” shows how distorted their thinking is. Totally whacked. Maybe his minions can cheer him up with some hot sex. After all he claims to be cpt america. Ha.
kaya
yes exactly…especially being new married, you would not be reaching out to your ex…although he claims I’m not his ex, but still his main woman over her….nice huh?
he even was talking trash about her days before being married…then he would end his trashiness about her by saying, “she’s a good girl, i don’t want to hurt her”. i don’t know how many times i have heard the same exact lines from him….almost as though he’s reading them from a script or has them memorized…the same things each and every time…what a memory!!! lol but yet he can’t or couldn’t remember to contact me when he was supposed to right?
i really haven’t a clue why he moved to her country, but it seems in the past a lot of his exes were from lower income families and poor countries…i think i am the first from north america..i believe i read somewhere that a sociopath has a tendency to want excitement and doesn’t settle anywhere too long…if thats the case, it explains a lot about his immaturity.
when he last wrote me declaring his love a few weeks ago, saying he made a huge mistake and only realizes now how important i am, he said .he married her due to pressure and circumstances..i have no clue what that means or why he is living there…hes weird…
did captain america contact you just to tell you that you are laughing at him??
Freedom
Calling him and yelling at him, cussing him out, and so on. That’s exactly what he wants you to do. I know that from experience. Just try to guard “that inner child” inside of you. Try to always be prepared to tell that inn we child to “cut it out”
Under the radar
What is it with them that they think we are all mebtally ill or insane. It’s one of their most favorite accusation. Do they get pleasure out of it to say we are crazy. I guess it’s part of the crazy making tactic. Like my ex who declared me mentally challenged for 20 years. It’s so absurd that they can diagnose people without having a medical degree. Like my lawyer asked my ex in court “what are you? Retired military, police officer , counselor , psychatrist , judge , what else ?” The entire courtroom was giggling.
Kaya…you are so right. Every other time I have called or emailed, he immediately responds. He loves it. He feeds off of it. How sickening!!!
And about that inner child….she wants to beat the crap out of him…lol!
Kaya48
At least we will see it coming next time! Not only do they all use the crazy tag, they also “ALL” use the “I’ve been set up” excuse when they’re caught – its them that are nuts! Lol
Freedom
Yes, after the discard I emailed and texted my ex. Back then I did not know that he was on cruises and lavish dinners with his coworker while he received the texts. I bet, they got a good laugh about how “stupid” the wife is. His answers were always ” I had to leave because you are so crazy”. Sure, he left because he wanted to be with his next victim. Now the tables have turned. He cannot stand the no contact. They hate being ignored.
Remember “resist the devil and he will flee”.
Responding to them is their victory. It gets easier with time. No more tears and no more sorrow. No one lies, disrespects me, betrays me , cheats on me and abandona me. Because he has already done that to me.
Kaya
So true! What delicious fun they have baiting us to see what response they can get from us. And, no matter how kind, loving, rebuking, angry, whatever we are…they get a big charge at our expense. And the two of them laugh and talk about it endlessly. Well, at least they are thinking of us right? 🙁
I say, don’t give them an iota, a gram, nada of ANY supply.
The temptation is to think that they still care (they never did) or that we are special. I will post something I read about that. It is too eye-opening….
Great response, Kaya. 🙂
YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE SO SPECIAL
written by Annesthesia
. . . that it won’t happen to you. He’ll be different with you.
You two have a “connection,” a rapport that he didn’t have with his ex. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He’s pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike – it’s just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are – and he’s the first person to really do that, isn’t he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it’s different with you. He couldn’t possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it’s so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn’t it? It’s hard being on your own, building a career, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here’s this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn’t possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that’s where you are vulnerable. He couldn’t be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it’s part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn’t mean he’s doing that with you. He’s really sincere this time.
He’s told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He’s acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and “honest”. And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won’t do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You’re special. So what if he told his ex the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his **** with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.
He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He’s not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he’ll be different, because he’s told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he’s told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn’t mean he’s following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn’t mean that he’ll be turn abusive with YOU at some point…) He’s such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?
So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the “best thing that ever happened to him”, and that he had “never loved anyone as much as he loved her”? That doesn’t mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won’t be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn’t give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he’d NEVER do that to YOU.
So what if it was less than a year after breaking off with his ex before he got together with you? It’s not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, “help” him.
And those stories of how his ex-wife emotionally abandoned him… He’s just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn’t even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man – here he was trying so HARD and all – seeing a counsellor and everything! It couldn’t possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave… He couldn’t have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his ex-wife didn’t trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior – it must have been HER issues.
So what if he USED YOU to break a trust with a woman he was already seeing? It’s not like they were actually *partners* or anything! She was just convenient for hurting his ex (he set her up really nicely to do that a couple of times), getting attention, an ego stroke, and occasional sex while he was waiting for the *right* woman to show up. Since you came along, he doesn’t need her anymore. He’s got YOU to feed his ego. And breaking her trust was a convenient way to ensure that he wouldn’t have to bother with her anymore and could focus on YOU. He did it so carefully too. (He knows that it’s the series of “gentle” cuts that leave the most stinking wounds.) That way, SHE would be the one saying she didn’t want to have anything to do with HIM, and he could blame HER for why they can’t still be friends. Isn’t he clever? What a creative way to get rid of someone when they are no longer useful!
And if this most recent woman doesn’t want to see him anymore or even be friends with him, it must be because she is jealous of the wonderful relationship you and HE have! It must be because he dumped her for you, and she’s just not big enough to accept that. It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the WAY he did things or tried to blame HER for his behavior. It couldn’t have anything to do with him LYING to her and using her, and having a hidden agenda of expectations that he told her she just wasn’t living up to. Nope. That would be his old M.O. playing out again, and he was a changed man by the time he met you. So it couldn’t be THAT.
Besides, even if she deeply cared about him, he didn’t have the same deep feelings for her, so that makes it ok to have sex with you, before talking to HER about it, right? He was just so TAKEN with you! Doesn’t that just make you feel all . . . oh, I don’t know – SPECIAL? She just wasn’t long term partner material, and he made that clear to her anyway. If she knew he didn’t have the same feelings, and was willing to continue to be used by him because she had fallen in love with him, who was HE to turn down that kind of attention and strokes? It’s not like he had any responsibility to not take advantage of someone who was emotionally vulnerable or anything. And he broke things off with her eventually. He just didn’t tell her about you and the sex stuff right away because he wanted to *protect* her from getting hurt. What a GREAT guy! See, he really did have amazing consideration for HER feelings! Withholding information isn’t the same as LYING or anything. That’s not dishonest, right? It couldn’t possibly be that he was deliberately stringing her along until he was sure YOU were hooked. No. He’s too sweet and charming and nice for that. He was just CONFUSED about his feelings, that’s all. Besides, it’s not like you two had UNPROTECTED sex before he told her about you, so that he could use you (the way he used HER) to break THAT trust as well… Even if he’s BROKEN A SACRED TRUST THIS SAME WAY, SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE (with other partners and lovers), he wouldn’t be repeating the same old abuse patterns with you.
You’re special.
And even if he WAS being dishonest at the start of your relationship, he lied to someone ELSE. It’s not like he was dishonest with YOU (that you know of, yet), so that makes it OK, right? (So what if ms-non-partner-material thought the same thing, and excused him, the first time she found out he was dishonest with her? This time, he will be different, because he really LOVES you.)
Of course, he told you how his last sex partner said she didn’t think it would last between you two (when he broke it off with her)… but he couldn’t be using THAT as a ploy to hook you further (wanting to prove her wrong). So what if he used exactly the same line on each new mark in the past, telling the next one in line that the previous one didn’t believe the two of you could last? He wouldn’t be using LINES and PLOYS and subtle MANIPULATION on YOU…
Even if in his past, he DID say,
“Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that’s easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I’m also inventive … so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly…
It’s just I’d rather enjoy the “romance”. It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It’s also a head trip for me, with my poor self-esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads.”
… he couldn’t possibly still have been doing that with her, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You’ve even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he’s sincere, right? He couldn’t possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.
He’s just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He’s so sweet, rubbing cream into your hands and feet at night, sending you little cards, reading to you in the afternoon, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true – cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too… before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that “wonderful” behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn’t do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn’t possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. All those wonderful things he has done – all the romantic things, all the ways he has helped out and called, and done things for you, they couldn’t all be just scripts. “Stock Techniques” for hooking. No. This time, he’s sincere. This time he’ll be different, with you.
So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his ex (just about the time you two met): “I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns.” That couldn’t mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT’S got to count for something… It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won’t make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn’t possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn’t possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You’re special.
So what if two of the other women he was involved with wound up in the psychiatric ward? So what if he “helped” a vulnerable friend by encouraging her to break her marriage vows, exacerbating her marital problems, and then abandoning her when she asked if he could be there for her? He needed an ego stroke and she was conveniently there and conveniently vulnerable from a death in the family. So what if he undermined his ex’s support network and used a mentally ill woman’s attraction to him to try and hurt her further? So what if he used and hurt a dying woman so that he could feel needed and in control? He was just being HELPFUL to all those women. Maybe he LIED to them, sometimes, but that was only to PROTECT the fragile little dears. He’s SUCH a sensitive guy, you see. He couldn’t POSSIBLY have been USING people for ego strokes.
So what if he used and was abusive to his life-partner’s children in order to get back at his her? Hurting and using kids is excusable, right? (After all, she must have deserved it. THEY must have deserved it. Right? Because he really DOES love kids… or at least, that’s what he has said…). The guy YOU know could never be like that. And… well… even if he WAS, he’s obviously changed. He’s undergone a miraculous transformation in just one year. He’s just shed ALL those abusive patterns and become a NEW man. He’s going to be completely different, with you.
Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn’t have any danger of repeating itself with you. Just because all those other women were “damaged”, doesn’t mean that he will someday be telling people how damaged YOU are… Not YOU. You’re SPECIAL.
His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that’s what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn’t EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn’t undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He’d never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. SHE must have brought that out in him. But you, you’re special.
Besides, he’s been in therapy. That must mean he’s sincere, right? He wouldn’t possibly be using the whole “therapy” thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his ex. He couldn’t possibly be using contrition, and the “I feel so bad about myself”-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn’t possibly be looking for a person to hook into that is in a different town so that she has less likelihood of finding out his past. He couldn’t possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn’t possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don’t direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn’t mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You’re SPECIAL.
He’s so contrite and sincere about “working on his issues”, he couldn’t possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn’t mean he’ll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn’t know it’s a lie, then he can’t be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn’t have good “memory” for things in the past. But don’t worry. He won’t use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You’re special.
The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if most of his ex(s) don’t want to have anything to do with him, and some now think he is mentally ill, it must be because THEY are unstable – I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you… He couldn’t possibly have been like that with them TOO… He wouldn’t be using stock romance “lines” on YOU.
This time, it’s REALLY love. You’re Special.
Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won’t think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won’t apply a double-standard to YOU. He won’t expect YOU to be perfect and subtlety criticize you when you don’t measure up to his standards. You’re the one who is going to change his life. And, of course, you keep your kitchen immaculate, so he’ll have no reason to criticize THAT.
And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can’t forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he’s so deeply sensitive, you see) – but he couldn’t possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn’t possibly have “set up” situations so he could cry foul… He wouldn’t have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her… And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won’t do it with YOU. You’re too special for that. Any time he tells you he’s happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he’ll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won’t create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won’t secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won’t do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices and moves in with you. He won’t secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won’t be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don’t give it all to him. Not THIS time. You’re SPECIAL.
He’s such a nice guy, he won’t “help” you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He’s going to claim his right to be “selfish” now, because he’s been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He’s never taken time to be selfish in the past – not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn’t selfish – that was just “acting out”. But he’s better now. Don’t worry. He won’t use his new-found right to be “selfish” against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.
It’s no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his ex was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn’t ready. And besides, he just can’t handle confrontation, you know? And like, she’s just so SCARY when she’s upset (it’s just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? He had this abusive childhood, so nobody else is allowed to have anger except HIM. Because, like, he can’t DEAL with it, and he shouldn’t be expected to! He couldn’t possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn’t possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won’t do it anymore, with you.
And if somehow you accidentally do things that “trigger” his old abuse patterns, he’ll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn’t want him to start acting abusive again because of something YOU did.
And you don’t have to worry about that, because you’ll never get upset with him, and you’ll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was “controlling,” but it’ll be different with you, because you know better. And you won’t need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he’ll NEVER lie to YOU. He’ll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won’t have to “forget” any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won’t be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won’t withhold information, or distort the truth. He won’t break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won’t HAVE to, because you’ll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he’s so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!
And it’s a good thing he’s not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won’t have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose “mistakes”, and all that did was make him feel bad about himself – that she could forgive and he couldn’t. Wasn’t that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was “like blood in the water for sharks” for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won’t be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU.
He’ll be different with you. You’re SPECIAL.
And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn’t really trying, but that wasn’t being dishonest – he just didn’t know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn’t willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn’t one of his patterns. He won’t do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after they broke up, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate’s clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn’t possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He’s not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues…. and well, if he is, he’s only doing that with HER because of their history – he wouldn’t do that with YOU.
And it’s so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his ex, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she “helped” him (when she wasn’t hurting him, the witch) – that must mean he’s a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even “help” him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past… Just like SHE thought she could “help” him…
And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It’s not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It’s not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn’t leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that’s all. He couldn’t have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn’t have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone’s face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn’t remember doing anything like that – and HIS memory is inviolate.
Even if he HAS been emotionally abusive and dishonest with others, he’s going to be different with you. Especially after you two move in together. It IS especially hard on him having a long-distance relationship. He wouldn’t be talking about how hard it is to keep up the intensity and connectedness over such a distance. He wouldn’t be implying that the relationship might not last if you don’t move in together… He wouldn’t have some kind of hidden agenda around that. He wouldn’t be trying to subtlely manipulate you, and get you worried about losing him, like he did with the others. He just REALLY CARES for you, and really wants the two of you to be together.
He’s told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU.
So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you.
He’s a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You’re special.
You don’t need to talk to any of his ex’s to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn’t possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he’s not going to be like that anymore. It couldn’t possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can “remember” it), right?
And he’s such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his ex could be FRIENDS now. Even though he NEVER ONCE called her or emailed her and said, “Listen, I don’t want it to end like this. Can we please talk?” (Even when he was still living downstairs. Even when she was in tears, begging him to *please* leave. NEVER ONCE.) SHE is the one to blame for all the bad feelings. It was HER responsibility to rectify things with HIM. And he can’t understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him – after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He’s so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn’t STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues… After all, he’s a changed man.
But you don’t have to worry. He won’t PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence – he won’t betray your trust – like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you’ll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It’ll be different with you. You’re special.
He won’t wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won’t then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won’t start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won’t flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won’t tell you that you just weren’t meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won’t expect you to read his mind. He won’t try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won’t set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn’t mean he’s going to follow through on the rest of them. He’s CHANGED now.
You’re special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.
He’s so sensitive and compassionate, he couldn’t have talked coldly to them about killing animals or wanting to break someone’s legs. No. Not the man YOU know. He’s different with YOU.
And when he starts telling you how much he MISSES his adult son, it won’t be to deflect, and distract you from being upset with him because he has just said or done something really inconsiderate or unkind. It won’t be to evoke sympathy from you and get you thinking what a wonderful, caring parent he is. Just because he lived less than a mile away from his son and hardly ever SAW him doesn’t mean that the “missing” monologue is for attention and redirection.
He’s so nice right now, so supportive. So what if he was that way with her too at the beginning? He won’t revert back to his headgames of praising and encouraging one minute and subtlely criticizing how you keep the house, the way you do things, things you say, in the next. He wouldn’t yank YOUR chain like that.
He’s so attentive right now, so interested in everything you say and do! He won’t turn around one day and tell you he’s NOT INTERESTED in the things that interest you, and then accuse you of not paying enough attention to HIM. He won’t get mopey and upset because you get more attention than he does at social functions. He won’t resent you for your charisma. Just because he did that before doesn’t mean he’s going to do it again with YOU. As long as you make sure HE is the center of attention, and he’s getting his ego stroked, he probably won’t get nasty with you… Right? It couldn’t be that he is a bottomless pit, and that you can NEVER give him enough attention. Not the man YOU know. Not with YOU. You’re special.
And the fact that another woman’s experience was so terrible with him, his distortions and multiple personalities so devastating that she felt compelled to warn other people about him and the “type” of abuser he is – well that’s no consequence. It must have been *her* that brought it out in him. He’s so different now that he’s found YOU and your healing love. So what if he said the same kinds of things to her? You are going to ignore those nagging little doubts in the back of your mind, because you want to believe so badly in the sweet, helpful, romantic person he is portraying right now. You don’t want to believe there is a dark malicious side to him that enjoys seeing others suffer. You want to believe you are special, and he is right there encouraging you, building you up, telling you how nobody understands him the way YOU do. He’s telling you that he just wants to stop feeling BAD about himself (and she made him feel that way, the witch!). He’s telling you that if he can’t make it work with you, he’s afraid he can’t make it with ANYONE… It’s so tragic… (Yeah, he said that to her too, but so what?)
YOU are the one who can “fix” his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you’re special! With you, he’ll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won’t become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won’t play headgames anymore. He’ll stop using and discarding people like old Kleenex. He won’t be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE’S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he’s removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his **** together. Not because he REALLY apologized (without interlacing it with blame) to anyone he harmed in the past, or made amends. Not because he’s done any REAL work. Not because he’s actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.
He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to “save” him from himself and “help” him become a better man, and that’s YOU.
You just KNOW he’ll be different with you. Right?
***I think I found this at PsychopathyAwareness ***
Sane……THANK YOU for posting this!!!! I am going to print this out and keep it with me. My goodness…..I can exhange the word Him for his name. As I was reading the message, so much came to me. Things he said from day 1 til last week. One of the last things he threw up in my face was about his adult son. When he’s going to discard mode, he always uses his son.
Again…this site is a God send.
Sane
wow…this hits home…thanks for that xx
my np who i work with and had an affair with cheated on his wife and me with amanda. he now is deciding he is not going to do anything after last wk telling me he wld and he misses it with me. this has been 2 years canoodling and only a month and half i found out abt amanda. i stopped playg the game so he cant send me confusing messages and i cant ask him but bcs i felt playg the game i was saying ok to what he did to me. i am so sad too. i dont hv anyone to talk to and the one friend says he cant deal w me anymore. he said this is my mess i cld hv ended it at anytime and im too much drama. then said i am rude after i hv been helpg him as he is disabled. wow i didnt realize being friends u clndt be honest and share. just more of the same bullshit.
Kaya48
It got around town that I was really stupid, not bright, dumb. And some other not nice things also attributed to my reputation.
Makes me feel relieved that I chose to move away. I was ALWAYS capable of learning but those “smart” people who “helped” my ex destroy my well being and the well being and security of my child? They’re still lowlifes.
Not
Good point! All those “smart” people helping to destroy an innocent – I’ll remember this one.
Jane
You actually made me laugh with your comment. Cpt America was writing to me to threaten to kick me of his health insurance. I already obtained my own since almost a year and he is just delusional. He also wanted to let me know that he does not appreciate being ignored. What an idiot. It’s just another way for him trying to get a reaction out of me. Nice try.
What
I so glad my ex and I never had any mutual friends. Nobody he can tell “how crazy I was” except his minions. D co workers at the police dept. I never met any of them and don’t know them. It’s a different county. So evil these creatures.
Sane
Thank you for the great post. I printed it out. Hanalei posted a similar one before. So true.
His new victims will make him so much happier. Yeah right. Good luck.
Hey everyone. Well, it has been a week of NC. I am trying not to obsess about his every move and what he is doing, etc. It is hard but I am thankful that I was able to get out of bed this morning and go to work. I couldn’t say that last Thursday. Knowing that he is off work for the next couple of days is hard. But each day of NC is better. I know that I can get through this. I am not so much in the flight mode anymore. Last week, all I could think about was packing up and moving somewhere new. But being with my family this weekend helped that. Coming to work today helped that. Knowing that I do have a purpose helps. Knowing that no matter what I do or say will never change the eventual outcome of my “relationship” with him. I have printed out what Sane posted yesterday. I emailed it to my best friend who knows everything that is going on. One day at a time. That is what I am telling myself. It is so weird because some days are much better than others.
Kaya mentioned about how she and her ex did not have mutual friends. That is the same for me. I am thankful for that. Bc our “relationship” was secret, he was never introduced to my family or friends. Only by best friend knows. I have met one of his friends and I am sure he has blasted me to him. But I really don’t care.
I do know this…he will live a lonely life. He will die alone. I will NOT! I can NOT!
The sun is shining and it is a new day. Thank God.
Inthemiddleofheartache
Your ex contacted you to tell you he still wants to get back with you even if he is with his wife again? Because mine too recently approached with the same idea even though he is newly married…unbelievable
You’ll get back on track with NC this hasn’t been too long for you right? I’m learning it’s hardest at the beginning at each NC. I guess we have to fall a couple times and get hurt before we learn not to do it anymore…we will get there 🙂
my np who i work with and had an affair with cheated on his wife and me with amanda. he now is deciding he is not going to do anything after last wk telling me he wld and he misses it with me. this has been 2 years canoodling and only a month and half i found out abt amanda. i stopped playg the game so he cant send me confusing messages and i cant ask him but bcs i felt playg the game i was saying ok to what he did to me. i am so sad too. i dont hv anyone to talk to and the one friend says he cant deal w me anymore. he said this is my mess i cld hv ended it at anytime and im too much drama. then said i am rude after i hv been helpg him as he is disabled. wow i didnt realize being friends u clndt be honest and share. just more of the same bullshit.
in, it does sound like bs and you deserve better.
inthemiddleofheartache
i keep saying this but your situation is quite similar to mine…
making promises though he is married…
trying to get me to tell him if i still loved him
apologizing over and over for leeaving me and running off to marry a few weeks later
recontacting me claiming he’s made a big mistake and regrets being married and could we possibly be together at some point
this was month ago….i have not heard from him since…
he really regrets his mistakes he has made with me hasn’t he??
they like to confuse us each step of the way…i know its saddening but when they start to do this as a habit, it starts to show their true colours and it becomes annoying to deal with such immaturity…im almost there…hang in there
Janedoe and inthemiddle
You both know what you’d be signing up for – are you prepared for the consequences of ignoring the facts to only “appear” to have won them back?
Hi undertheradar, I did know he was with his wife when he went back to her. I started dating him 2 years ago and when we started he was separated from her. he went back 2014 in july. he then resumed getting back to me in sept. I was with 2 times after he went back and said he was leaving again. During the time sept to nov i was with him 2 times. I got a discard in july so i knew he went back with her but by that time I was already into this. Was it wrong yes. In Sept he and his wife let the girl amanda stay with them. It was in beginning of Dec I found out abt amanda and the text messages and stuff. So the wife got cheated on and I got cheated on too. He is still in contact with amanda and i am sure he is doing stuff with her still on his wife. I am out of it. the hardest problem is i work with him and it is hard seeing him every day knowing the shit he did to me and how he treated me all along.
undertheradar
no i wouldn’t…for two reasons
-he is married
-once a disturbed mind, always going to be one….
he has a lot of baggage from the past, whether it is true or not…if he has to make that kind of crap up for sympathy then he has a lying issue…
if it is all true about his past, then he has some deep problems that need to be dealt with and he will never change
Janedoe
Believe me when I say “it is so much easier for me to make decisions for you from where I sit” than it is for the ones swimming in a murky pond. I’d also like to add that I’m not immune to their charms! I’ve been sucked back in more times than I could count on all fingers and toes!
A classic example and I’ll keep it brief; the spath couldn’t walk and spewed every time he stood up last Wednesday. I just happened to have a Dr’s appointment as it was my only day off so I took him to my appointment instead (We both suspected he might have had a stroke) anyway, my girlfriend said to me today that he has probably worked out how much you mean to him by now and wouldn’t it be great if you two could work things out…
Umm hello! I said, and went through the list of things I’d have to be the Dali Lama to forgive and she said “why do I always forget about those things?”
I know why, because he conned me just as much as he conned my friends.
Don’t punish yourself sweetie because you’re human 🙂
Janedoe
You are so nice!
Being the wife in that situation, I found it hard to respond or give advice without any animosity. I was really shitty when I heard that the other woman knew he was married because they only ever listened to his side of the story – there is always an innocent 3rd party getting hurt in a triangle…
People justify and make excuses or outright lie and tell the victim they are single when they are actually married. A rule of thumb is that it is never right to get involved with a married person, no matter what the excuses and justifications are.
According to Biblical instruction any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong; and following that rule would save some heartache in today’s world. It’s not a bad idea to wait until a man has put his money where his mouth is. A good guy looking for a stable relationship leading to marriage won’t be in such a hurry for sex and will be interested in building other aspects of the relationship. A man who makes a bunch of promises to manipulate a woman to sleep with him probably isn’t all that good relationship or marriage material anyway.
Old fashioned wisdom I have heard, “Why buy the cow if you’re getting the milk for free….”
AnnettePK
I agree! Biblical you have a point but also emotionally. If you know he’s married then you also know you’re about to hurt his wife – that doesn’t make for a decent human being!
undertheradar
haha why am i nice???
if i had to say i was the “wife” when this first happened…it was sort of like that…because mine left me, although we weren’t married, to marry another…as i explained he is now married and contacting me saying all this crap about her…what a whack job ….
its interesting though how he contacted me making solemn promises about a future relationship with us again and she wouldn’t be an issue..whatever that meant.
so its been approx 4 weeks he declared his love for me…where is he??? i haven’t even heard back..so this even makes me believe more what everyone on here tells me.
i really wanted to see how this would pan out, i even had hoped the contact would continue so i could call him on what an idiot he is…but he hasn’t contacted me after telling how much he loves me and wants to communicate…im a little disappointed because i would have liked to make him squirm when i point out what he’s doing…i haven’t heard back and its not worth my trouble to contact him to point it out that he hasn’t contacted me since xmas and all he said to me was another big fat lie…
Janedoe
Initially you were the victim! You weren’t in a relationship with a married man – you didn’t sign up as the other woman. I’m sorry but I have no tolerance for the women that knows they are right from the beginning. You are nice because you were nice to one person that really wants and needs guidance but I couldn’t because I was the wife in their story – not that I’m out to offend! If there’s one thing I’ve learned from the spath it’s being honest no matter what…. you are nice x
I understand your point of view and wouldn’t expect you to feel charitable towards women who knowingly enter relationships with married men.
Sadly, in today’s world many people are just not taught that it is always an absolute wrong to get involved with a married person. Movies, books, and other entertainment broadcast stories where adulterous relationships work out well. Spaths are skilled at using hypnosis and other techniques to manipulate their targets. They really spin reality for their purposes, telling their victims all kinds of things to justify an affair – wife doesn’t care, wife doesn’t want to be married, wife is divorcing me, wife abuses me, blah blah blah. If people aren’t taught that it’s wrong no matter what, an affair can be justified.
In my experience, all cheating relationships cause pain for everyone, and women regret getting involved. Sadly, psychopathic men do not care about the pain they cause. But there are many good men who do not cheat on their wives despite temptation. Men who take responsibility towards their wives, their children, the other women, their husbands, their children, and themselves – their own character. Sadly, this way of thinking is not widely taught anymore.
Annette, many years ago I read a quote with reference to affairs that I’ve never forgotten: “You can’t build happiness on a foundation of pain”.
I want to tell you undertheradar i am sorry that happened to you. yes again i was wrong when he went back but i was with him i think i dont know now when he and i were together 1 yr 8 months. I am so sorry i got involved with him bcs he works with me. But remember i got cheated on too and paying for my part of this sit. Amanda lived with him and his wife and she was having sex with him while the wife was sleeping and when the wife was not home. so i think that is worse. this poor woman let this girl in the house to stay and she winds up with her husband. Now she is still with him and the girl amanda i dont know where she is at but i know he is doing something with her bcs he is only staying married bcs he has 2 kids and they are young. I wish so much that i was well and had self esteem bcs i would have never chose him even before he went back to his wife. I would like to apologize to her bcs its not right ever. So i dont know abt other people I do have remorse for my decisions but my np should not have done what he did to me either. I dont think i even know everything abt this and i am sure there is more to it. I am glad i am not doing anything with him anymore and that it is over. I just want to heal from it and be able to see him at work and be able to be ok. I appreciate your comments and hope that you can understand that some people are sorry for their mistakes.
Inthemiddle
I’m hurt and I’m sorry now that I’ve put you in a position of justification. When someone shows me their guilt, I never double punish them – ever! Your remorse is enough for anyone to forgive because you’ve learned from your mistakes so now make me cheer with delight by making the best life you can possibly have and I’m glad you responded – it shows true strength of character to own own faults ★
He was cheating with many on many. If he was separated and then went back is he now cheating on his girlfriend with his wife or vice versa? Then cheating on them both with the housemate. Or cheating on the housemate with the wife or girlfriend? Pure pathology, can’t make sense of it, and who’d want to try.