UPDATED FOR 2020
A Lovefraud reader who posts as “LadyA” sent Lovefraud the following email. At the end, I suggest how she can recover from the sociopath.
I’ve spent a lot time thinking about my experience with my spath, and how it affected me and the people around me. I have read article after article, story after story. I now fully understand what spaths do and how they do it but I didn’t understand why I don’t feel any better about it. What was I missing?
When I left my spath it was a fairly dramatic experience. He had just been sentenced to serve jail time on the weekends for an obstruction of justice charge. My mom flew into town and in one swoop we packed up everything we could get in the car and left the province to go back to my hometown. I had to quit my job over email and send a goodbye text to all my friends.
I am thankful every day for what my mom did for me. I sure wasn’t happy about it at the time but I knew I needed out and this was my chance. What I didn’t know is how much moving back to my hometown would affect me emotionally. I had originally planned on only being back for six months. Just long enough for him to move on and get me out of mind, but it has now been just over three years and I still haven’t moved back. I got settled in a new job, new friends, and a new relationship. Even after all of this I haven’t been able to figure out why I’m not happy. Until three days ago.
Pride. I was proud of myself for the life that I had built. I moved 1200 km’s away from home right after high school to a big city. I was on the fast track to a strong career in a competitive field. I had a brand new car, paid all my bills on time, and was saving to buy a house. I was independent, reliable, strong, caring, and had a really great outlook on the world. Not many people can say that at 22.
All of that was ruined by a six-month “whirlwind romance.” I’m no longer proud of myself. I feel like I have failed because I came back home with my “tail between my legs” to my mommy. I no longer have a new car because it was repossessed as soon as I got back here. I am jaded, I don’t trust people easily, and I am no longer as strong as the face I put on the outside. I’ve gained weight because deep down I just don’t care anymore. My career is now on a plateau due to the location where I live. I don’t have one reason to be proud of myself right now.
How do I get my pride back when I know what happened? I want to feel proud of myself for my life but I just have zero idea where to start. I’ve thought about moving away again, but I don’t really know if that’s the answer. How can I be proud of what has happened in my life? I’m really honestly just so ashamed.
Donna Andersen responds
Dear LadyA,
I am so sorry about your encounter with a sociopath. Although this is not a normal breakup, the good news is that you can recover from the sociopath.
Right now, however, it does not seem that way. Why? I can see two reasons.
The first is that betrayal by a sociopath is a huge emotional injury. In the beginning of your email you said that, after all your reading, you now “fully understand what spaths do and how they do it,” but you don’t feel any better.
Understanding is a critical first step to you to recover from the sociopath. But understanding is an intellectual process, something that you do with your mind. The wound you experienced is also emotional. It needs to be dealt with emotionally.
How do you do that? You allow yourself to feel the pain of the injury.
This means letting yourself cry. Letting yourself scream and wail. Letting yourself experience anger — I’m sure there is anger — perhaps by working it out on a punching bag.
This isn’t pretty, and you probably want to do it privately, because other people often have difficulty being around this. Or, you may have a good therapist who can help you.
One way or another, any bottled up emotion you have within you needs to come out.
Underestimated the injury
Next you wrote that you identified the reason that you’re not happy as “pride.” But it seems like you are regarding pride as something bad, like one of the seven deadly sins.
You had every reason to be proud, because your pride was based on your achievement. And the sociopath took this away from you.
Here is what I think has happened: You have underestimated the scale of the injury, and the severity of the betrayal.
LadyA, you were building a life for yourself. You went out on your own; you started building a career; you were moving forward.
And some manipulative, deceitful parasite, who did something bad enough to end up in jail, ruined it for you.
Not only did he cost you money and hurt your career, he corrupted your outlook on life. You’re jaded; you don’t trust; you don’t care. You are not the young person you once were all because of the sociopath.
Recognize that this was not a normal breakup after all, you had to flee your home, job and friends.
Your life was shattered. Your psyche was deflated. This is a massive shock to your system. It’s no wonder that you are still struggling.
Drain the emotion
So what do you do? In my opinion, you do exactly what I suggested earlier — allow yourself to feel the pain now, knowing that the pain is bigger than you originally thought.
So you cry. You stomp. You imagine him standing in front of you and yell at him. (Do not, however, attempt to confront him in person. This would be counterproductive.)
The idea is to drain off the negative emotion.
As you drain the emotion, a void will be created within you. It’s very important to fill that void with joy.
This may sound preposterous to you, like you have no reason to be joyful. But don’t look at the totality of your life right how.
Do any small thing that makes you happy: Go for a walk. Play with your pets. Have lunch with a friend. Listen to music.
To recover from the sociopath, it may require many rounds of draining off the negative and replacing it with positive. But with time, you’ll find that your entire outlook will change, and you’ll be able to get back on track.
Importantly, with the wisdom you gained through this experience, you’ll never fall for a sociopath again.
Lovefraud originally published this article on May 12, 2014.
High school boyfriend pursues her, then abuses her
AnnettePK, My ex took videos of us having sex without my knowledge. How I found out was mortifying. His son went in our bedroom for something and was in there a long time. I asked what he was doing and he said, “oh you know dad and his porn” I went in to put clean laundry away and his laptop was on the bed scrolling pics. I didn’t pay much attention and then out of the corner of my eye I saw skin, I go look and I can tell it is my ex’s back. I got sick to my stomach and thought “who the H is he with?” Well then I recognized the material on the couch and it was our couch. It still did not click. I thought well who was he screwing in our house? then I saw that it was ME. THEN the light bulb went on!! His son!! OMG!!! I never said anything to his son, I was mortified. I don’t know if he watched the whole thing or not. But anyway, I went snooping on the net to see if my ex had posted it anywhere. he was into watching amatuer porn house wives etc.
I got more than I bargained for. I see his fav username in a xxx porn site where you post videos, date etc. sure enough it was a picture of him, an old one but definitely him and he had himself listed as gay and his “friends” all had penis’s.
I didn’t say anything to him for a few days. I loved him so much I thought I didn’t want to embarrass him. I thought it kinda explained why he was the way he was. I was almost relieved that it wasn’t me. I was prepared to help him come out of the closet etc. But when I showed him the site I had found he had a “so” attitude. I said, it says you are gay. he argued and said, “So now you think I am gay!?” I said, “you filled out in the personal info not me” then he said it was an ex getting revenge. We had been together 10 years, the city he lived in was correct, etc if it was an ex from 10 years ago she wouldn’t know his username etc. Besides a few days later he had changed it to hetero. Then I started to remember the young guys he used to have drop by and he was always working late and there was a young guy that worked for another company who always worked night shift. One time he was out in the barn with this guy and I walked out there and felt like I had walked in at a bad time. I felt really strange (this was prior to me finding the ad) and just left right away and I never felt uncomfortable around his friends. He had also made a point of taking me to meet the guy one night, like going into the plant and dragging the guy out to meet me which I found strange. The guy and I were both kinda looking at each other wondering what was going on. but he always looked at female porn and screwed around with women but I was wondering if it was to throw me off what was truly going on.
He would go through periods of almost manic or paranoid periods and I had suspected he was gay and never been able to put my finger on it. His sister said the same thing when I showed her what I had found. She told his mom and she told me she even asked him one time if he was gay but didn’t know why. He was the most masculine guy you would ever want to meet. A real “guys guy” But when he met a new friend he was the same with them as he was when he met a new woman, obsessed. calling all the time, buying gifts etc and he would discard them or screw them om a business deal and the friendship would dissolve. I always knew when he made a new friend I wouldn’t be seeing much of him for awhile. Sp strange.
I have thought about it a lot and I think at times he really struggled keeping his narcissism in check. for the most part he could function, although abuse, he seemed sane. (if that makes sense) but at other times it was like it overtook him. It was at those times that I think he wanted everyone to want him male or female. He was so desperate for attention but would push me away. So strange and I guess I will never know the truth. He hated gays which is a good indicator someone has issues. He told everyone of a time when he was trucking down south and was robbed at knife point and stabbed, he said the guy made him strip down naked and took his clothes and money everything and left him. His sister said she always thought there was something else he wasn’t saying.
I haven’t written a book, I feel everyone writes a book and my story is so much like everyone else’s. I have been published albeit no money in a woman’s magazine and the Canadian Centre for victims of violence newsletter. I was honored to be asked. My dream is to write a book aimed at teenagers and go to high schools and speak. I really feel that we need to reach the young people before they start dating.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. you know what I mean?
I remember thinking when I was in the middle of it, not knowing what was really happening, I had never heard of a narcissist, i didn’t know these people existed. I thought “if I, a middle aged confident woman can be made to feel this insecure, and helpless, how would a young girl with no life experience cope?
I am trying to get funding right now from the government to re educate as a Life Skills Coach and work with survivors of abuse and then I will also work on getting into the schools. That’s my dream anyway.
Thanks for asking.
You survived a horrible situation.
I think that the insights you add to your story would make it interesting, even if it’s not unique, but really everyone’s story is unique in ways. The work that you’re doing will help a lot of people in concrete ways. There’s a need for it.
Lady
Wow, I cannot believe what your ex did. Leaving the computer accessible to his son. How crazy is that ? My teenage son luckily only found the nasty pictures he exchanged with the co worker. But other times caught his father watching porn (I used to work nightshifts in the healthcare ). What are they thinking ? The porn addiction. My ex had got way out of control. He was obsessed with watching amateur porn just like your ex. Once on counseling , the counselor said “you know how much you are disrespecting and hurting your wife with the porn ?” His answer was “so, she can get over it.” Selfish cowards.
Your plans about educating young people about narcissists and sociopath sounds great. Good luck and I am so glad for you to not have this evil creature in your life anymore.
To this day my ex does not get it that he and only he is the one who destroyed the relationship with his only child. Who wants to have a pervert as a father ? Unbelievable. .
Ser-
I’m concerned for you. Yes, there are mature men who are truly celibate. But the number who are non-virgins and non-porn addicts are very small. You may have found a wonderful guy who believes that sex interferes with establishing true connections, or you may have someone on your hands that is either hiding his other relationships or addicted to porn.
Men who are addicted to porn can become celibate because their desire for the mood altering chemicals of adreneline, dopamine and seratonin, usually derived from sexual intimacy, is being met by watching porn. Men who do so “objectify” women. While they have an interest in social relationships, they feel greater peace, contentment and control by being able to seek those satisfying neurotransmitters on their own.
If you’re dating a porn addict, and you eventually marry or become intimate, you will become the person who is responsible for initiating sex in the relationship. Your self esteem will be greatly undermined.
I don’t know if you’ve been to his house, but you may want to see if there are porn magazines around. BTW- they could be stashed under the bed. If you go to a coffee shop where they sell magazines and he casually drifts through the section where the shirtless ladies are found, and makes a silly cover-up like, “only looking,” it’s a red flag.
While many porn addicts will satisfy their addiction with on-line encounters, they might tip others off by ogling at provocative photos as well.
You might want to engage him in a conversation about porn magazines… like show him an explicit picture, express outrage at how it “objectifies” women, and see what he says. Is he so nervous that he tries to change the subject right away? Does he tell you all the reasons why it’s just “harmless” entertainment? Neither response should give you comfort.
You’ve mentioned that he has more than one ex. Have you met any of them? Have you met any of his kids? What is his relationship with his children? If he comes up with a justification for not having a good relationship with them, there is something seriously wrong. Unless they have some type of character disorder, he should be in loving communication with his children.
Men who are unable to have children can be drawn to porn because of their deep rooted need to feel “manly.” I haven’t seen you write anything about his kids, so I’m leery regarding that potential.
Really sorry to be such a wet blanket.
Joyce
Joyce…I know what porn does to men. I have read about it and I know how it changes their brain circuitry.
I have not met his exes. They live far away. He has one adult daughter and she also lives far away. He just visited her in July and I even have pictures of them together…she looks very happy in the photos. I think they have an OK relationship, but she is 22 and young and free and lives about 700 miles away…she is not really into parents if you know what I mean!
You are not a wet blanket. I understand that everyone is concerned. I appreciate your input.
Ser-
It would even be hard to determine if there’s a problem by the reasons they divorced, but I think it’s a subject you should discuss if you haven’t already.
KIM- he’ll be giving you “his” side, so think what might have motivated “her” in what he says.
Wishing you the best.
Joyce
Joyce, I was actually just mulling over the comments of the past days here and thinking to myself, hmmm, I really don’t think there are m(any) normal adult men who would be willing to go without sex for a long period of time in order to establish a relationship unless they are getting satisfied some other way/place.
I’ve felt worried about SER too. I asked myself if I was being too cynical. I know how it is to want to believe something is good and right and honest. I guess in my mind, a man who was willing to wait so long for sex seems like a red flag.
Thank you for validating my thoughts. (Yes, SER, we’re all concerned and want the best for you!)
HanaleiMoon…I am just getting really sad now. I am really upset. I don’t like that I am feeling defeated because I feel like I found something so good. It’s really sad that we think no one can go without sex. Am I skeptical? Absolutely! I don’t know what to think. I know he had a lot of sex in the past and all that ever did was bring bad into his life so after he was baptized last year, he decided that he didn’t want a relationship like that anymore. I did the same thing…after spath, I said that was it…having sex with someone without commitment always leads to no good…I have never seen it turn out right…ever! So I did the same thing and swore off sex, but I guess me being a woman makes it more okay than a man doing this?? All I know is that now I am upset and need to start asking him some very in depth questions. Sigh.
HanaleiMoon…I want to clarify that I am not upset with you…not at all. Just the situation and the fact that now I am feeling pretty bad. Also, when I said I am skeptical, I meant that yes, I am also wondering how he is going without it, but wow, we are not all animals who just have to be in bed all the time! I don’t know…this is tough.
Ser-
Sometimes folks actually do decide to become celibate. And the reasons can be a spiritually rooted re-conception of relationships. He may be on the up and up, but keep open to the possibility that there may be another motivation.
Listen, even porn addicts can be fun to be around, just don’t be giving your heart away ’til you know for sure!
Joyce
SER
I think it’s possible for a man to decide the hedonism of his past did not work for the life he wanted. And for him to decide he wanted more out of life than an orgasm. I know I want more depth of a relationship from a man.
We’re all here because we were scammed. My ex is VERY protective of his reputation and in the end of our marriage, and all the affairs came out of the woodwork, he started seeing a very virtuous woman. It ended up that he just used her to reset his image. All his shenanigans were blamed on me. So I think there is real and valid concern being expressed.
I think advise about caution is common sense. But rather than be cynical, I’d rather have conversations with him about why he decided to change (should not be about you but the change should be something he would have done anyway), and be very observant in conversations with his best friends. You can tell a lot about a person by checking out and having relationships with their friends. I used to be so confused why my ex never had ANY close friends and the ones who called him friend were pretty lowlife. I made excuses for it when those friends were indicators what kind of person my ex was.
I might be totally offbase… am figuring this stuff out myself…
Joyce…I agree, I am being cautious…I am.
Not…he had already changed in this way before we met so the change can’t be about me. I understand what you are saying about them getting with a virtuous woman to make themselves look good. The women he dated before me can’t hold a candle to me…sorry, but that’s just the truth. You are right in observing men (or women) and the friends they keep or even the fact they do not have any friends. I always saw that as a huge red flag when someone has no friends or lowlife ones. Most of his friends are from church. He is in men’s groups with them or does individual studies 1:1 with one guy. I’m not sure what that means either to be honest. I don’t know…it’s all so daunting. I am just going to ask him some questions and see what happens!
SER, I don’t want you to feel sad, upset, or defeated. I wasn’t even going to share my thoughts until I saw Joyce’s post.
How my ex viewed/used sex is still fresh in my mind. He wouldn’t go without sex for more than 12 hours (maybe less for all I know) and I’m projecting that on men in general. I know that’s wrong, and wasn’t even my own experience prior to my ex.
I am certain that you’re being cautious and protecting yourself. You (and all of us) deserve to be happy, find someone who makes us sparkle, and to enjoy the process. I have no business making judgements on your guy, I know there are good guys out there.
Reading your posts, I was putting myself in your shoes and thinking about what/how I would be feeling. Clearly, I’m not ready to think about a relationship since I see red flags everywhere.
I’m learning as I go along, and realize that these days I’m almost afraid of my own shadow, and that’s not good!
I don’t plan on jumping into sex with anyone either. I have wondered how that might play out with a real man. I know that if I hadn’t had sex so soon with my ex, I wouldn’t have become as bonded to him as I was, he wouldn’t have been able to love bomb me in the same way, AND, he would have moved on very quickly. That alone is worth waiting.
I’m on your side, SER, just wanting you to be careful, with all good intentions.
SER, I wanted to add that I get edgy when I watch House Hunter International, worried that one of the people will get abandoned after they leave their careers, families and homes to move with someone. I have to remind myself that because that happened to me, it does not happen to the vast majority of people.
I also have to remind myself that before the relationship with my ex, I felt completely safe in the world, competent, confident, and self assured. I trusted my judgement, my ability to handle anything that came along (in fact, it never even crossed my mind that things wouldn’t work out just fine) and not scared of a damn thing. I made gutsy career moves. I had no problem making major purchases. I felt GREAT about myself.
I am at about, oh, 20% of that. Maybe. (Some might say I’m vastly underestimating myself but that is how I feel.) Although I have had no contact with my ex for just over 3 years, it is only six months ago that the home was sold and I was “officially” out from under him. Before that, I was totally focused on survival, and I was amazing at it. Now that I’ve survived, and I’m in a place to get my life back on track (there’s that phrase again), I’m floundering around, mired in indecision, killing time, because I have no idea how the HELL to get started.
I miss the old, exuberant, confident me, and I’m frustrated with myself. I can easily remember how I used to operate, but can’t seem to put it into practice. Life used to feel so easy!
Sorry I made it about me. But trying to say, I’m coming from a place of anxiety at the moment.
HanaleiMoon…I understand. The one thing I find ironic is that in relationships with men, everyone on here, including me, who had men who loved sex and wanted it all the time still turned out to be jerks because they were cheaters and pervs who just wanted it from everyone. Then when there is a man who is trying to do the right thing (or seems to be trying), and wants to wait, it’s not right either! Life is just too hard. Sometimes I wonder why I even got into a relationship as I am so OK on my own. And you brought up the point yourself, wondering if you had waited with your spath and how much better it probably would have been because if he was only in it for the sex and you wouldn’t give it to him, he would have left and that would have saved you years of heartache. That’s why I say it is best to err on the side of NOT doing it rather than doing it. Just like in my case…if it turns out that he is addicted to porn or there is some other major fault I discover, at least I never slept with him and bonded so it will be MUCH easier to move on.
Another point…you talked about being so anxious now. I failed to mention in my other posts that ever since I met him four months ago, I have been a nervous wreck so trust me, I know what that feels like. The reason I have been so nervous is just not knowing if all he is portraying to be is true and being scared to DEATH!! So I absolutely get it. Another thing I thought about…he loves his mom and dad and family. I think that is a very good sign. In my past experiences and with looking at other people, when a man does not like his mother, watch out!! HUGE trouble ahead! But mine loves his mom…truly does.
Having been in a good marriage to a normal man, and a hellish fake ‘marriage’ to a Psychopath, I recognize that although there are steps we can take to be cautious not to get involved with a disordered man, the behavior and choices of another person are ultimately out of our control.
I think that the nervousness and stress SER, HanaleiMoon, and others express at the concept of entering a new relationship is in a large part due to PTSD from the trauma we experienced at abuse and betrayal. It’s helpful for me to recognize how harmed I am, and that it will take a long time to recover. I don’t expect that I ever will recover fully and go back to being the person I was before the trauma. I hope to be able to integrate it into who I am and what I experienced, but I can’t undo it, like any other life changing experience positive or negative.
A big red flag I missed was that my ex spath had no real friends. I attributed it to a number of other factors, and he did have some acquaintances; also people at our church made a point to include everyone and treat everyone as friends. In retrospect I recognized that my first normal husband had many good lifelong friends. I think if I ever dated again, I would pay attention to his relationship with his friends or lack of friends, as well as his relationship with family, and his work stability. My ex P was self employed when I met him, and had not stayed at one job for more than a few years. Again, I attributed that to other factors.
HanaleiMoon
This is very depressing to think that men just wanna use as many women as possible for sexual release. There’s nothing wrong/immoral/unhealthy with solo sex.
I know that I would not date a man who had lots of partners, even if they were serial. To me, that indicates that the orgasm drives their relationship rather than the depth and quality of the emotional connection.
It’s also depressing to think that men my age haven’t learned the benefit of sex within a longterm committed relationship rather than just a benefit of having a girlfriend.
me, sad that the best I can hope for is to serve as one of many in a line of objects, ugggg. a commodity. ~deep sigh.
Not all men are like what you describe. My first husband was a good man who enjoyed sex enthusiastically, but who valued his family, women and children, and for that reason abstained from the opportunities he had to cheat and do porn. It was a totally different atmosphere, attitude and motivation, than the fake ‘marriage’ to my ex spath that came later, but the spath faked it so well at first and I did not know people like them existed, that I did not understand where the spath was coming from until a few years into it. It helped me to have information from the internet, this site!, and books. My family of origin was slightly dysfunctional (aren’t they all?) but overall healthy values and good character, so I knew what a husband and a marriage could be and are supposed to be like.
That being said, my first normal husband and I got engaged and set up housekeeping together while making marriage arrangements – neither of us would have wanted to wait once we decided to get married.
My ex spath was just interested in me as a cover, so he was in no hurry to get married. I didn’t want to wait, but after we were married he was not interested in intimacy.
Also comes to my mind that my normal husband and I didn’t talk all that much. We had a few meaningful conversations, but didn’t need a lot of talk because our relationship was based on being and doing, and he and I both meant what we said and said what we meant, so a lot of talk wasn’t needed.
The spath husband talked and talked and talked and talked, and even more than that he got me talking and talking and talking. Long telephone conversations, long emails, and lots of sitting around and talking. Turned out it was basically all lies and manipulation.
NotWhatHeSaidofMe, I don’t think the best we can hope for is to be a commodity. I know (and you do too) good men. They may already be taken, older, younger, but nonetheless, we do know good men. That means there are other, single ones out there.
I’ve even been in a relationship with one once upon a time.
Like I said, I’m just coming from a place of anxiety at the moment.
NotWhatHeSaid
HanaleiMoon
my ex and i lived separately in different countries but saw each other fairly often i trusted him and he assured me that he wasn’t out there having any sex with anyone…turns out all those times i figured he was not, he had told me in a “no big deal” attitude…about the women he’d meet when away on “govt mission” and the sex they had…but according to him, “it is ok babe, it was just to empty my b***ls and get some relief. don’t worry i had my eyes closed and imagined it was you the entire time”
i was supposed to be ok with that???
janedoe, it’s insane that anyone would say that, let alone expect you to be ok with it.
But that’s the way these monsters are. Besides, if all he wanted was “relief”, he could have done that by himself.
Ick.
Joyce
What great advice in your comment above. I should ask for your opinion in my case. After I was discarded by my ex after 20 years for the young co worker, the first thing he does is get a vasectomy. This seems very strange to me as this girl in his twenties , no kids, and surely wants to be a mother one day. Not that it concerns me anymore since I divorced him, and no contact for 16 months :). Just wondering why he would go through such a permanent procedure ?
I know of it because I received the medical statement at my old address. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
kaya48
You asked Joyce but since my ex and yours share many traits, I thought I’d stick my oar in.
My ex got a vasectomy but Clearly NOT for the woman he was currently cheating on me with (she had a tubal 15 years prior) but because he clearly knew she wasn’t going to be the “only” and didn’t want to pay child support.
Remember, even if they say they’re “finally for the first time, in love”, they know they really aren’t; the other woman is as much a scam as my ex marrying me.
I appreciate the advice and insight from everyone here on this website. Makes sense what you are saying. Thanks so much.
Kaya-
I’m with Not! Sounds like he has NO…. notice the capital letters…. interest in procreating! Wonder if his young heartthrob knows!
Joyce
SER and the other ladies here. I just wanted to mention I did start to date a fellow over a year ago. I was NOT interested but he was so sweet. He would cook me supper. I lived in a hell hole and it was so cold and he insisted I use his shower and he would cook dinner. I would sit on the other side of the room, I made it very clear I was not into anything. But he was consistently sweet. Text at night to say sleep well. A wake up text every morning saying, “Good Morning Baby have a nice day” He would give me shoulder rubs and finally I sat beside him, oh it felt good to lean into a guys shoulder at the end of a day. But I still never messaged him first, he would wait until 2 pm on a sunday and then message me and say, “You weren’t going to message me first were you?”
I had dogs and they both loved him to pieces and he would baby sit them for me when I had to go out of town for work. My older guy loved him and didn’t want to come home because he got so spoiled over there.
He arranged for me to meet my grand daughter who lives out of town, we took my two dogs he got the hotel, we slept in separate beds.
I started to relax and we did have sex. My guard was still up and I was very open and honest about how I was feeling, he had been dating other women and I told him right up front that if we slept together I expected he would not sleep with anyone else. I didn’t expect love and I didn’t think I loved him but in this day and age especially I think one partner at a time is safe.
He told me he would stop seeing anyone else and stop looking on the dating site.
Well, I still had my guard up and I had a family function on a Sunday and on my way home I went right by his place so I stopped to say hi. He had given me his key so I could use his shower. I pulled up and there was a car parked in front of his place and I got a pit in my stomach (he lived upstairs in an office building so didn’t have a buzzer) so I used my key and let myself in. I knocked and walked in at the same time and yelled out Hello?? and there was a woman, obviously fresh out of the shower with a cat that ate the canary grin on her face.
I walked in and he was in the kitchen and didn’t even stop what he was doing. I thought for a few minutes and then handed her the key and said you will need this because I won’t be using it. Good luck. i called him a few choice names and left.
Yeah I cried for a day, but it was nothing heart breaking. I was disappointed more than anything. but i had kept my head about me, taken my time and not jumped in with both feet. It was ok.
The funny thing is karma got them both. She arrived there about 2 months later and he had another woman in his place. This time though the woman lost it and trashed his whole place. She shook bottles of pop and let them spray and then dumped floor over the whole room. He called me complaining about the nut case she was and I just laughed, and said “Karma’s a bitch.” and hung up.
It doesn’t have to be soul destroying to date an a$$ if you keep your head about you.
Ladywithatruck…hmmmmm, interesting story. So sorry that happened, but just one more example of how we all need to be very aware of what we are getting into.
I did enjoy your report. Not the crap that he put you through but I don’t have to receive the justice to enjoy it when others receive it. What an a* to call you and complain about the outcome of his cheating. A man with no shame.
Ladywithatruck…I don’t want to make you feel bad, but one thing pops out to me from this story loud and clear…he was already dating other women. And you know he was having sex with them. When you started having sex with him and asked him then to stop sleeping with the other women, it’s just not feasible that he was going to do that. I would never trust that a man who was already seeing other women would stop seeing them just because I had now started having sex with him and asked him to stop. When we first met, this guy I am seeing now asked ME twice, not once, if I was seeing anyone else and he told me he wanted to be sure because he did not want to compete with anyone else for my attention (rightfully so) and plus it would not be fair to him or the other guy if I was seeing someone. I was not seeing anyone and neither was he so we were both available and free to begin a relationship. I hate that happened to you, but love that you kept your head about you and weren’t in love with him anyway so you were not hurt too badly. Good for you!
SER,
Do you have a ring to confirm your engagement to marry? How specific are your and his plans for the marriage ceremony and for your life together afterwards?
AnnettePK…I do not have a diamond ring yet. We looked and he was the one who asked me to look, but I chose something too expensive and he just couldn’t afford it and I’m not one to force someone to buy something they can’t afford especially when it doesn’t really mean anything. But he makes very nice jewelry…he is a woodworker so he made us matching wedding bands and we wear those to show we are in a committed relationship. As far as the marriage ceremony, we both know and agree that we want to get married in our church. Our church offers a class to couples who are thinking about getting engaged or who are engaged and you are pretty much required to take it first before they will marry you. It is next month and we are signing up for that. As far as our life together afterwards, we have talked about all the normal things couples talk about…how we will pay bills and pay things off, how we want to spend our time together, etc.
A lot about your relationship sounds like it’s genuine. My outlook is so tainted by my spath experience. We also got married in our church, took the required premarriage class and counseling sessions with our minister, etc. That’s the thing about successful spaths – they do such a good job of looking normal. I did the same thing and was the same person in 2 marriages, one of which was wonderful and the other was hell.
AnnettePK…I know. It’s scary. We just never know. It’s the chance we have to take. I was married once a long, long time and he was not a spath. He was a good guy and he did not turn into a monster once we were married, but that’s the chance I took and thank God he was okay. It is very scary to me that the way my current guy treats me now could change in a minute. I don’t like to even think about it. I can only pray and ask God for blessings and favor. All I can say is that if he is faking it, he is doing a fantastic job! He treats me like a princess, prays with me, always calls and does everything when he says he will, wants to spend time with me, etc. I don’t know what else to think. On the other hand, the spath I was involved with never called, would set up dates and just not turn up, cheated, on and on. So we should look at someone’s “actions” and not their words. But there are so many stories on here of how the spaths were wonderful at first. So it’s very scary. Other than that, I don’t know what to say.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with SER’s comments about the guy seeing other women while he was seeing you. The guy I have dated most recently is the same way. We have hung out three times now, and I specifically ask him about other women so I know because he at least tells the truth. Fortunately, I have not had sex with him. But I need to get better at heading these guys off at the pass, even before the three dates. If a man is capable of having FWB situations with women, then he is not right for me. Period. I was kind of hoping this guy would come to value me more than the others after the last amazing date we had. But I have only received one email from him since I last saw him (Sunday). It is Thursday. I’m not even going to wait for him to make up his mind or to get around to call me again. I’m just moving on. I have been very direct with him, and he knows what I want. If I don’t hear from him again, I will know it’s because he doesn’t want to give up his freedom and he doesn’t want to hurt me by lying or stringing me along. I hope he’s not the type who would never call me again. But on the other hand, he knows what’s up. It would be a moot point. We have a very strong attraction. I don’t think we could just be friends. Next. I’m getting better at this.
http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/the-gift-of-time-managing-the-pace-of-a-new-relationship
Some dating pointers from the above website that I think make sense. There is more info in the complete article.
In this day and age, slowing down is not really part of our lives. We move fast today. Technology makes things so easy and allows for quick, direct (sometimes even intense) communication. We are often under pressure to move fast in relationships,having put off “love” for career. So the task of slowing down requires that you look at how we date today.
Technology: Focus on limiting the amount of texts and emails that you send while in early stage dating. Limit texts or emails to once a day or less and limit content to setting up dates or quick check in. Leave real conversation for the face to face meetings. Take a look at your facebook friends and consider not adding a new friend until they are an actual friend. Adding a person that you have not even met in person or who you have had one dinner date with might not be the best choice. When using online dating sites keep emails simple, straight forward and of a non-intimate nature.
Contact: Consider dating once a week. Leave Friday and Saturdays for a traditional date night and hold firm to your boundary. Even if you are not mutually free on those days for two or three weeks,you just bought yourself some time. Hold firm to boundaries regarding when you are available. If you have plans with friends or family, do not cave when the pressure comes for him to participate.
Time: Be vigilant about how long you spend with one person in early stage dating. Allow yourself two or maybe three hours for first, second and third dates. This would include a dinner date, an outdoor activity date, or a group date. Keep phone calls short and pleasant. Again, leave real conversation for face to face meetings.
Relationships: You can slow things down by keeping your early stage date just that, a date. He does not need to meet the kids, the parents or any other close family. The process of bringing a new person into your intimate circle only intensifies the relationship in your eyes and puts you at risk. The person you should introduce him to is the non-tolerant best friend. The friend that warned you about the last one!
And a word about sex and slowing down: think about it. That’s it. Just think it through. Whatever you choose, make sure you have taken the TIME to think it through. Sex means that your neurochemistry will shift and you will sense a deeper attraction, a deeper sense of relationship investment, and even craving. Those are all neurochemistry shifts you cannot control. Sex means that your mind and your beliefs about the relationship will change. Sex means that you could be triggered or struggle with the intimacy involved…are you ready?
That’s an excellent article, Annette. Thanks for sharing it. I do tend to get tripped up in the early phases of dating. I just don’t know how to do it. I really need a dating coach! I completely understand that I should be dating a few different guys at once and have a “dating rotation.” Therefore, they should, too. But the difference is that I don’t sleep with them. The guys, when they are casually dating, do. That trips me up. If they are sleeping around, I just cannot get past this. Are there even any men left who can resist sex when it’s offered to them and hold out for something deeper? Then there’s the seductive ones who are so danged attractive that I just cannot resist a passionate make out session on dates two and three. So just because I draw the line before sex starts, I STILL feel the craving and attachment afterward. On the other hand, I’ve tried dating guys who were just very kind and nice to see if an attraction can develop. Usually it doesn’t. This is so confusing for me. It wasn’t like this when I was younger. Usually if there was a mutual attraction, a relationship would just start. Maybe it’s the times we live in. It’s just so easy to have a quick hookup with someone or meet a lot of people online. Why hold out for just one? I just don’t know what to do. I really liked this last guy and he really liked me. I know he still does. But I am in his dating rotation, and I know the other women he dates are offering up sex on a regular basis. That doesn’t mean he likes them more. But what DOES it mean? I just don’t know. I have enough self esteem and self-confidence to know my worth. But I feel like what I’m holding out for is obsolete. There was a time even when my self-esteem wasn’t so great when a man would court me, bring me flowers, and try to win me over. Now they all just want to “hang out.” What am I, the hang-out queen? Or they wait for me to call them and casually ask them out so they don’t have to spend a lot of money or make much effort. I just don’t get it.
Stargazer,
I think a lot of it is “the times we live in.” There’s a widespread lack of desire for family among young men, and probably among most of the still single older men. Most men would take sex if handed to them without any commitment required especially when popular culture says it’s right to do so. In past generations, it was understood that sex outside marriage is generally wrong so there was less of it. I’m not interested in dating now, but if I ever were I think I would date widowers. These men may have been successful at marriage and they did not choose to be single.
Annette- So glad to see that consideration of the neural connection of romantic love appears in other knowledgeable places. Thanks for your post.
I think the crucial takeaway is the final paragraph that clearly states: “Sex means that your neurochemistry will shift and you will sense a deeper attraction, a deeper sense of relationship investment, and even craving. Those are all neurochemistry shifts you cannot control. Sex means that your mind and your beliefs about the relationship will change. Sex means that you could be triggered or struggle with the intimacy involved.”
Pyschopaths use our brain’s chemistry to get what they want. They are hard to spot and hard to stop while they are carrying you away in a romance-laced fog!
People who know and understand the chemistry behind romance are much better equipped to put the brakes on before they suffer considerable harm.
Joyce
SER, maybe I worded it wrong. He wanted a relationship and I kept saying I didn’t. It went on for months and I knew he was dating but there was nothing between us intimately. We were together every weekend and many nights during the week so I knew he was not dating that much and we worked together and he lived above the shop so I saw who came and went from his place which was also another reason why I was cautious about getting involved. I didn’t want to mix work with pleasure.
Then one day I needed water for my dogs and ran up stairs and there was this woman. i had no right to say anything or be angry. I wasn’t, just surprised and I felt a twinge that was unsuspected.
He hadn’t known I had gone upstairs and noticed the dogs needed water and said he would go up and get some. I said not to bother I had already gone up and got some. The look on his face was priceless. I said, Yes I met your friend.
After work he wanted to talk and told me he was only continuing to look because i was saying there was no way.
I had not given him any hope of anything more than a friendship, we had not kissed or anything so I lightened up. He said he was out of POF and not seeing anyone else.
Then I showed up unannounced and the same woman was in his place. Then I realized he must have been seeing us both
Ladywithatruck…Hmmmmm, I am confused because in your original message, you clearly stated that you relaxed and started having sex with him even though you knew he was dating other women. This second post was entirely different from the first…are we talking about the same incident?
The way you handled the situation is an inspiration. How empowering to do the right thing in the way you did. Knowing that you are really unwilling to put up with betrayal and that you will uphold your boundaries, is a strength that will protect you in any future relationships you choose to enter into.
Annette, I’m not sure who you are referring to? I don’t think it was me because I’m an idiot with men. The last three guys I dated (barring the one that was more like a good friend) I was passionately attracted to. With all three, I stopped them short of having sex. All of them disappeared, even though we’d had a great time before that. And with all of them, I STILL felt the longing and craving. I wonder why I didn’t just give in and have sex? At least that would have been nice memory. I can’t imagine it would have made me feel any worse, unless I had caught a disease. At least I can say I have remained disease-free. All of this abstinence and pushing prospective lovers away is very frustrating. Sometimes I just want to let go and have the passionate affair like I did in 2010 with the Canadian guy I met in Costa Rica. I knew I would never see him again so I had nothing to lose. Never mind that it took me a year and a half to get over him because our connection was so passionate. I wish I had a dating coach.
I had a guy take me on a cruise last November. I really liked him, though he was a bit of a party boy. We had known each other for 6 months and had gone out on one fun date. We were introduced by a mutual friend in town who is a very famous singer (and her friends are usually not slouches). First we became FB friends before we ever met. It was very spur of the moment that he invited me on the cruise. I accepted, and he paid all my expenses including my plane ticket. I made it clear to him that I needed a separate bed, and he willingly obliged. I managed to avoid “the deed” while on the cruise. But we did sleep together and kiss and cuddle a lot. I think stopping before the actual deed is sometimes very arbitrary. I can say no orgasms happened on the trip. When we returned, he invited me over for dinner and came onto me pretty strong. I guess he had decided that that night was the night. I wanted him very badly. I liked him and was very attracted. But I was not ready for sex. I put the brakes on and I did it in a very stupid way – I just freaked out and left his house. In retrospect, I don’t know why I couldn’t have just stayed but put the brakes on – it had to do with my own insecurities. Needless to say he just moved on after that. I always regretted what I did and the way I did it. Would it have been so bad to spend the night with him and enjoy whatever happened that night? It took me a few months to get over him. I had to meet someone else first. With that new guy, it was very similar. Some passionate makeout sessions. I’d stop short of having sex, thinking it would give us something to look forward to when we got to know each other better. Instead of pulling him closer, he disappeared, popping up 3 months later like a whack-a-mole and then disappearing again. Now this newest guy has come into my life. He’s full of life, joy, creativity, energy, and love – he has a huge heart. And he has not called me once since our passionate (but sexless) date last Saturday night. I did get an email saying he had “just a wonderful night with me” and that he “loved my energy.”
I just don’t know what I’m doing wrong but this is so painful and frustrating. I don’t know if it would have been worse had I just given in and had sex with any of them. God knows we both wanted to. And every other woman in town is giving in. Why do I insist on waiting? I don’t feel like it’s boosting my chances at all. I think if they’re gonna leave, they’re gonna leave. It doesn’t matter how far I go with them.
Stargazer,
I was referring to Lady Truck’s account of dropping the guy she was dating the first time she caught him cheating and lying to her about it. This thread is long and lively, it isn’t clear what my comment was replying to.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. When you say ‘boosting your chances’ do you mean chances for a committed monogamous relationship, or marriage?
I think it’s a difficult world we live in. Sex is out of balance; it’s touted like an end in itself, and advertising, media, etc. has influenced people to focus on it so much. I think that ‘every other woman in town’ putting out isn’t emotionally healthy for the scene. Some old fashioned wisdom I heard once was, “Why buy the cow if you’re getting the milk for free?”
Consider not beating yourself up over not sleeping with someone. If he is serious about a committed future with you, it won’t matter in the long run, and probably would be better for the strength of the relationship to develop other bonds besides sexual intimacy. It makes sense to consider that if they’re going to leave they’re going to leave, and it doesn’t matter how far you go. Your decision whether to engage in sexual intimacy is about you and for you, based on your values, moral and religious beliefs, and your assessment of the situation. It’s helpful to consider that women experience strong physiological chemical induced bonds during sex, that strongly affect a woman’s thinking and her emotional needs. It makes a strong case for protecting ourselves, and for reserving sexual intimacy for a safe and secure situation where sex benefits us, not just services some guy’s needs.
Current culture often encourages men to spend their efforts manipulating women into giving them sex, rather than putting their efforts into having something to offer a woman and developing a committed family oriented relationship with one woman. Good aspects of family values and structure are being rejected.
If what’s happening in your dating life isn’t pleasant and good for you, consider making changes that will benefit you. Taking a look at the big picture and being analytical about it can help find solutions.
Thanks, Annette. I honestly don’t know what changes to make. I think I am going about dating in the most constructive manner I know. I really do need a dating coach, and I may just seek one out.
My reasons for not giving up sex too soon are not moral or religious but just because I think it is more meaningful when you’ve gotten to know the person and bodes better for a serious relationship. As far as the neurochemistry thing goes, I am experiencing that anyway just through kissing, dancing, and cuddling, which kind of sucks. But I do want to date guys I’m attracted to. I’ve tried dating guys who weren’t really attractive to me in the hopes that I could develop an attraction. It rarely works.
In the past, I could have sex as soon as I wanted and still have many willing suitors who wanted a committed relationship with me. I don’t know if it’s my age (I’m soon to be 54) or the times, but it’s just different now. Ironically, I have so much more to offer. That last date I had (last Saturday) seemed to be kind of special for both of us. It’s just confusing when they don’t call afterwards or they even just disappear. In the past, I’d get flowers for an amazing evening like that (even though it was non-sexual). I’m just at a loss. Just seems to be a lose/lose. If you don’t risk your heart at all ever, you lose. And if you risk your heart, you lose. And yet, I am going back out there – going to a big party tonight where I will probably meet more men and keep trying. They say it’s a numbers game. I really liked this last guy. And I did open my heart to him somewhat, and he did with me as well. Don’t know if he’s scared or just doesn’t want to stop playing the field. Sigh
Stargazer,
I’m also thinking that the neurochemistry bonding being activated when you kiss & cuddle is natural – it’s the way we’re made and in the right situation it’s great.
When you speak about dating guys who are unattractive, so you mean physically or intellectually or emotionally or some aspect of their personality?
Stargazer
If all you’re catching is carp, maybe you’re fishing in the wrong pond.
Stargazer
Maybe the denial of sex from you in these situations shows them you’re just not ready for a normal relationship yet… remember that normal people are going on instincts to, not necessarily motivation. Saying no all the time would tell me they still have a lot of baggage from the past and at my age would I want to get involved with that? Maybe walk in the shoes of the ones you’re meeting and ask yourself if you’d run? They may have also had their fair share of rejections in the past and that has caused emotional scarring to – I’d want to be completely together for a new partner and I’d want to attract one that’s completely together – just saying… This is not a dig at the way you’re doing it because I’d honestly be the same at this stage. I’d also be wondering, what the hell and I’d have nothing to lose by doing it, but I’d have to wonder what they’d be thinking if I was so stand-offish regarding sex that they’d have to assume I was going to be to hard to crack and at our age, do we all want to play those games…
Ironic, Maybe you’re right. Well then, damned if I do; damned if I don’t. I think I would have felt worse if I’d gone all the way with this guy the other night and then he disappeared. I would feel used. The only one I regret saying no to was the guy who took me on the cruise. I don’t think he would have gone to all the trouble he did for just a one-night stand. I think I actually hurt his feelings insinuating he was using me. It still bothers me the way things turned out with him. But you know, he was a bit of a partier. I don’t know if he was the settling down type. I really don’t know what I’m doing with men. I know I am honest. I can only hope that one of these guys some day will be the one to stick around.
I also think that because of my age (I’m a few years older than some of these guys – not all – but some), they think older women should be totally hot to trot. I am VERY hot to trot. But I don’t want to be a notch on someone’s bedpost. I don’t know how to get past this dilemma. I have a friend who is in her 40’s. She is like a man; she can have sex with all the guys she dates without getting too attached. If one flakes out, she just moves on. I so wish I could be like that.
Stargazer,
Honesty is good; good for you and others. I can see why you’d like to be like your friend who doesn’t get attached and skip the stress and pain. The way you are is good, and your feelings are real and valuable.
You might consider giving dating a break for 3-6 months or so. At first it would probably be weird, but other activities will fill the extra time. Stepping back can help you get clarity about the issue, yourself, your feelings, etc. When you go back to dating, it may be better after a break.
Perhaps I’m in a conservative culture, but the people my age (mid 50’s) that I know here in my town, are into activities – art, music, dance, politics, gardening, raising children, theater, work, etc. etc. etc, and sexual intimacy happens mostly in committed relationships. I went 10 years after my husband died before remarrying. It doesn’t seem odd to most people I know to go without sex when one isn’t in a committed relationship. Sexual intimacy is just a natural part of a relationship that is about a lot of things, sex is one part of it.
Stargazer…I still think it’s best to err on the side of not doing it, but that is just my opinion. I think I said this in an earlier post. For me, not doing it and being dumped is way less painful than doing it and then being dumped. Without doing it, you haven’t lost anything and the man obviously did not like you enough to stick around for a real relationship anyway. And most times, if all they want is sex, they disappear anyway after they get it.
Annette, that sounds like an idyllic place to live.
Annette, I’m curious where you live. I’m guessing you must be in the midwest somewhere. I want to thank everyone for the great feedback. I’m not sure if I need 3-6 months off but I just need some time to process this latest encounter and release this guy out of my system. Maybe a few weeks. I have gone months and even years without dating many times. I spent many years as a recluse in past days, so I’m really wanting to be out there and be social. I do think there is something to be said for the ponds I’m fishing in – that was a great observation. The social club where I met the last guy is probably not the right place for a sensitive soul like me. I went to a dance party there last night. Immediately, I met a guy there and he was all over me all night. I enjoyed dancing with him, but he just seemed to want to pick me up. Ironically, he was very attractive – maybe early 40’s – if he’d just behaved normally, I would have probably liked him more. There was another guy there I had gone out with (no romance) a few weeks ago. He was standing next to another girl and didn’t even acknowledge me. It just seemed very high school. I probably will not go to those events anymore, even though they pick some really cool venues.
I have also recently volunteer to do some trail blazing/digging with a volunteer group of outdoor enthusiasts. This is a great place to meet people, but most of the eligible guys are too young for me. I still enjoy it. I actually have several volunteer gigs that I do – many opportunities for meeting people. I’m out there more than I ever have been.
As far as the neurochemistry thing happening just from kissing and cuddling – that is exactly my problem. I can put the brakes on sex, but kissing? I don’t think I can avoid kissing or holding hands or dancing for 3-6 months unless the attraction just isn’t very strong. I don’t know what to do about that. That’s what happened with my former dance partner. It was so painful. Fortunately, I am not attracted to my salsa instructor because we dance and teach together often. He is 29, so I think of him kind of like a son. But there have been times when I was dancing with him and just feeling free and uninhibited, and I did start to feel kind of turned on. Salsa dancing is very dangerous in this way.
One of the things about me is that I’m a very unusual person, especially for my age. I’m very high energy and youthful, and I’m told I put off a lot of goddess energy. I think that means men find me very sexy. So I tend to attract a lot of men on that level, and a lot of them are younger. In fact, the majority of guys in their 50’s and 60’s who would be the ideal age for me to date just seem too old for me – in their energy and their interests. Also, I have boa constrictors, which scares off 90% of my prospects. I cannot help whom I’m attracted to. I like people who are full of life and energy. Most of those people are out there playing the field.
Stargazer
Yep damned both ways…considering everyone else’s posts, I may have to rethink mine…I’m certainly learning what to do by reading how you and others are dealing with the potential for a new relationship.
Most importantly…I WOULDN’T TAKE ANY RELATIONSHIP ADVICE FROM ME! Lol look what I stayed with for 14 years…haha that makes me laugh when my friends ask me what to do about their problems. I just throw my hands in the air and laugh 😉
Stargazer,
I live in a mideastern state in a small city/large town near the mountains. I’ve been here my entire adult life, 37 years, and I have a lot of acquaintances whom I’ve known for a long time, and a few close friends – mostly people who are family oriented and stable. It’s a comfortable place to be for me.
You can’t help whom you’re attracted to, but you can choose what you do (or don’t do) about it. Your pet boas and to some extent the goddess energy are choices. If you think things through about what you want and what you have to offer, and realistically look at the options available to you, it could help you make the best choices possible for yourself. It sounds like you’re doing the most important thing to protect yourself – be wary not to get victimized by another spath.
Annette I wasn’t sure who you were talking to either until I scrolled down a bit. Thanks for your comment. The experience taught me a few important things, 1. that I could be attracted to another man besides my ex. I had been with only him for 10 years and then alone for 3 without feeling any attraction to another man in the whole time. I feared I never would.
2. It showed me that I could protect myself emotionally and still be open to a relationship
3. That if I take my time the likelihood of getting shattered again is less likely.
4. That I could stand firm with my boundaries and feel empowered by them. My deal breaker boundaries are mine, a man does not have to abide by them but then he doesn’t date me. If he is going to lie to me about anything I am out of there. Lying is a deal breaker. No 2nd chances. I will never waste my time trying to decipher lies every again. My first husband was a rounder, he was a heavy drinker who could not turn down a woman in the bar. He never made me feel I was lacking, he owned it and he was honest. I could not deal with it and left him but the narc tried to blame me for his lack of morals and he led me on for years denying it and saying I was crazy. I was heart broken when my 1st husband and I split but I was not crushed, my soul wasn’t ripped to shreds and my confidence was not stomped on.
This new guy knew some of what I went through with my ex, of anyone he should have known how much honesty meant to me.
I had been afraid I wouldn’t stand up for myself but I was proud of the way I handled it and that was empowering. It took a lot of soul searching over the previous 3 years to get there. I think the problem a lot of women have is they don’t have set boundaries going into the relationship and make them up as they go along.
I know i didn’t before. Then you catch them doing something and you have to decide if you will accept it or not. If you know ahead of time what you will not accept, no matter what, then it is easy to stand firm. anything else you can compromise on if you choose.
HanaleiMoon and all
Referring to you post on laying on his back naked and asking you to please him..ugh it’s revolting
Was he as well watching porn like the few other men were?
I know mine didn’t like porn, never requested sexy lingerie or any sex toys and I found it so weird at the beginning. I blew if off didn’t think much of it…realizing as time went on its not the porn that would satisfy him hit being online with many women, adding them on Skype and he would watch them do their thing while he did his…he had no shame of pulling his thing out of his pants and showing anyone or everyone…no shame at all. He denied it all to me but each time he and I would Skype I would notice his contact list would become larger each time. First off, he was a loner and didn’t have many friends so who else was there? When I approached him he conveniently set something up so I was no longer able
To see his contacts and telling me he had no clue what I referred to,making
me believe I was crazy…many many situations he did that.
And when we would have sex, he wasn’t always able to climax completely…he would tell me he had mental orgasm but wasn’t able physically at times. I attributed it to his age being in his 50s at the time, what did I know? He told me it was due to an old gf who used to get impatient when she performed oral sex on him, and because it didn’t happen when you wanted, he became “blocked” when having sex…there were so many things like that and I didn’t catch on. Buy now he married a girl 30 years younger and claims he is now a changes serious responsible man with a new life and has to do everything right…so does they mean he’s admitting to being a hoax and con?? Oh and for a man who wasn’t able to ejaculate each time, this girl got pregnant as soon as he moved to her country two months ago…now he has to be righteous he says…omg I burn up thinking of that weasel telling me all this..
janedoe, I never had any evidence of mine watching porn but he had to be based on some of the weirdo ideas he came up with.
My ex was in his 50’s and could easily climax twice a day. He had me trained so well that he needed it in the morning and evening that it was an excellent form of punishment if for some reason I wasn’t able to get ‘er done. Lots of weird rules, if he didn’t get it in the evening then he didn’t want it in the morning (making me feel like a failure and giving him a reason to be really cranky and mean all day), if I got up early to make him coffee and didn’t get back and give it to him before a certain (arbitrary and ever changing) time, then he didn’t want it. I remember the first time we visited his parents, he had to have it with them in the next room and it was just horrible for me. I thought it was so disrespectful. I dreaded going there after that and it was always the same story. I know now that the ebbs and flows with sex was directly related to how many other women he had going, but had no idea at the time. He also had “tells” of when he had a new woman (shaved pubic hair, clothes disappearing, sudden evening meetings) but I never caught onto that until after either, since we didn’t live together and only spent 3 or 4 nights a week together. Bad memories.
SER
I have to agree with your comment about how they treat their mom is a sign. Who would want to be with anyone who treats their mom like crap and I would hope he wouldn’t advertise that to a gf because that is just cruel…it show a lot of how they think of a women when they treat their mom with respect.
Someone once said on here, I believe, watch how he interacts with a female waitress or a sales girl…not that mine treated them badly but his demeanor would change and his voice became almost whisper like, kind of sneaky…and I remember that the very first time we met, I shd have clued in at that point, it was like he didn’t want to be noticed or he was hiding from something when he spoke like that…check that out too if you have the opportunity SER 🙂
janedoe…we go out to dinner all the time and he not once has treated a female server, or any server for that matter, with disrespect. He always thanks them, etc.
I know what you mean about the soft voice whisper thing…my spath was like that.
My ex was extremely nice to waitresses , neighbors and so on. It was me who he treated like his true self. Once the door closed he turned into a monster. I had to walk on eggshells to please him, to make him comfortable , to honor and worship him. Sex, was just like a robotic act for him. No emotions, no closeness, no romance. I was once told if I wanted romance I should go see a psychiatrist and find out what’s wrong with me.
Lies, oh my God, lies after lies. I wanted to believe them so badly that I did believe his b/s. I asked him
Once “why are you texting this woman from work so much?” His answer was “oh, her and her fiancé bought a house and they want some crown molding done”, you know how good I am doing work like this. I actually believed it.
Come to find out, the woman/girl never had a fiancé or a house and he was screwing her during their night shifts.
I honestly don’t miss those lies. Now my life is so peaceful. I come home from work and I can be myself. I don’t have to please him twice a day like Hanalei.
I think I am no contact for 17 months now. I am so proud of myself. Something came up today where I should contact him. Instead I am paying my attorney to handle it. The attorney has much stronger ,more powerful weapons than I do. I just have to pay but that is so worth it. 🙂
Kaya, my ex was very nice outside the house too. Inside, with me, like you, I had to honor and worship him. Outside, he was a mild mannered soccer dad. (I’m sure he had another act when he was trolling for women, but I never saw it since I met him at work.)
Sex in the beginning was wonderful, loving and caring, it diverted me from the parts of him that didn’t feel right. Over the years it became an obligation I had to fulfill. There were other rituals I had to fulfill at times that were intended to control me, at the time, I shook them off as annoying quirks but now I know just how sinister they were.
Toward the end, I realize now that he had someone he intended to discard me for, even while he set me up to lose everything with the house purchase. That is when sex became robotic. Or he created something I did wrong to punish me so I didn’t have the opportunity to “please” him. I now know he was getting what he wanted elsewhere, and had no need for me, no need to keep up the mask. Sick. All the while, I was thrilled to be moving forward into the new home and all our shared dreams.
I don’t miss having to please him twice a day. I don’t miss the tense feeling in my gut when I knew I had to do it or else have a rotten day. I don’t miss him, and the thought of him makes me sick.
What I do miss is having someone to be in life with together. Someone who wants to hear my stories of the day. Someone to laugh with. I don’t miss sex but I do miss physical closeness, being touched by another human being.
Hanalei kaya ser and everyone on this topic if sex…grrr!
OMG! Don’t get me started!!! Lol they are almost like an alien species that integrated into our world. By all accounts they “appear” human but never fully grasped the emotional side of being human and that is what sets them apart from the real humans.
After 14 years of hell with the P I’m so totally turned off ever having sex again that the thought of dating scares me! I’ve said this before, I’ll be keeping the hedge to guarantee I’d never be seduced. I no longer trust myself and my attraction to men – God what am I likely to attract next if I was attracted to that?
The last 6 months of our marriage were the worst for me regarding sex. It was an obligation for him and it made me feel like I was prostituting myself all to feel some closeness, some form of or any form of intimacy, the whole thing just reduced me to tears.
So date away girls! I’ll be happy to live my life through your new experiences for a while longer…
ironic, sex at the end of the relationship was the worst for me too. About six months before the final discard, he stopped having intercourse with me. The last time, he kept putting his whole weight (about 250) on me repeatedly and making it impossible for me to breathe. Afterwards, he told me it didn’t excite him to hear me struggle to breathe, concluded that I was no longer able to “do it” (implying there was something wrong with ME) and things switched to me “pleasing” him.
He acted like he was traumatized from the experience, and complained bitterly that every man in the universe was having intercourse with their woman except him, who had a woman who couldn’t “do it”. I told him of course I can do it, IF you keep your weight off me, NO ONE could do it while being crushed to death. I knew he had done it intentionally, but didn’t realize until later that that was probably the point where he had moved me to the bench and was moving someone else up to MVP. I guess it was some sort of sociopath conscience – not wanting to cheat on the other women with me. LOL Of course, it didn’t stop him from moving forward and buying a home with me so that he could sit back and watch me lose my shirt.
My prior relationships were with men who were normal and had normal attitudes toward sex, so I know my ex was an anomaly. It’s been a little over 3 years since the end, and while I’m starting to think it would be nice to have a man in my life again, I’m sure I’m not sending out any vibes that I might be open to it.
Hanalei
Thanks for your confirmation that it wasn’t just because of me. I took the lack of intimacy as my problem and it affected my self worth. Now hearing that your p wasn’t having sex with you either is somewhat of a comfort to me.
Dear ironic – first of all, I get something useful from all the feedback I get here – yours no less than anyone else’s. In past days on LF, depending on the crowd, I would avoid seeking any advice because they all thought every guy I was dating was a spath and all advised me to go no contact with all of them. I didn’t think that was the best advice for me, and I felt it was based in fear and projection. But with the current crowd, I have benefited greatly from all the wisdom even though I’m a little discouraged right now. I really did feel a strong connection on many levels with this last guy, and it did help uplift my soul. I’m just sad that it has ended. I want the one that doesn’t end.
Stargazer
I think I’m losing something in the translation and I apologize! I’m finally, after 10 weeks of moving, getting into my new unit and it’s extremely difficult to keep up with all the posts at the moment, like I’m waking up to 20 posts a day + emails and a full workload…
I think you dating is a good thing and as I said, date away so I can live through you. I hope you’re not turned off getting out there. I understand people’s expectations after a relationship with a path but totally get that they aren’t all like that. It is too early for me but I’d love to hear that you’ve hit the relationship jackpot so please don’t be discouraged – anything is worth trying when you’re ready just keep me posted!