By | March 26, 2008

“He is the lie, from hello to good-bye”

Donna Anderson’s important latest post reminds me that one topic which will never be worn out is that of the psychopath’s lies and their impact on others.

This week I want to very briefly introduce yet another take on this inexhaustible topic. Everyone lies, but there’s something else at stake in the case of the psychopath’s lies.

To illustrate: you might say about any regular (non-psychopathic) person, “Things would be better if s/he was to lie less often. Her/his soul or psyche would be healthier as would her relationships.” That’s true. Now try this on for size and notice how wrong it seems: “Things would be better if the psychopath was to lie less often. His soul or psyche would be healthier as would his relationships.”

Weirdly, this is patently not the case. The psychopath will be just as sick/evil no matter how many or how few lies he tells. It’s not a quantitative but a qualitative matter.

It is commonly said that a defining characteristic of psychopaths is that they are pathological liars. This is right if you mean that they are profoundly dishonest and not to be trusted. It does not mean, though, that psychopaths lie a lot. They do lie a lot and those lies cause havoc. But as I hope my illustration above shows, lying less will not make them better people.

So, how does this work? The thing about psychopaths is that even their truths are lies! Or rather, whether or not they happen to be telling the truth or a lie at any particular moment is not what makes them psychopathic. What makes them psychopathic is that they use and destroy people; truth or lies are for them just so many weapons for pursuing their prey.

M.L. Gallagher said a lot when she wrote this:

He is the lie….

From hello to good-bye. I love you to I hate you. You’re beautiful to you’re ugly.
It was all a lie….

When friends or my family ask, but what about this, or what about that, I tell them. It was all a lie. There was no truth in him.

If I spend my time trying to figure out fact from fiction, all I am doing is trying to prove I wasn’t so stupid. See, this was true. That’s why I fell in love with him.

Truth is. I fell in love with him because I believed his lie.

When I discovered the truth, I was so enmeshed in his lie, I couldn’t find the truth in me. And so I sank.

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yes thats right thye use the lies for whatever they want to achieve. first mine used lies to get me then when he had me he lied about things to impress me, then when i found out something about him that was a bit of a turn off or made him look bad he lied to try and save me from leaving or thinking he was not a good man. then when i found out more, he lied to end it with me. then he lied to stay in touch with me, then he lied to punish me and hurt me and use me becasue the relationship was over and he felt betrayed and didnt get what he wanted. that is pretty much how it went for me. they have set their lifes up so that they nearly cant not lie they always have something to cover up even if they tried to go cold turkey and do the right thing in a new relationship they would end up lying about the past and other relationships. when i broke up wth him he said he was scared and thats why he lied all the time, i was even shocked he told me this. it was like a little boy, mummy i tell lies all the time and i dont know why , he was crying like he was in pain, it made me feel sad for him actually. so on pondering this i think they feel they have to lie to not show the real person because the real person is they think not good enough and nobody would like them. or somehting like that, this is what i worked out with him anyway. but it is very hard for me or any normal person to understand. i have told lies we all have ok but not lies that destroy people or are unforgiveable. what i find funny though is that if you lie to a s pa or maybe an n they will never let youlive it down this happened to me and it flawed me in his eyes forever and he could not forgive me it wasnt an un forgiveable lie by any means but the s p held it against me to this day and has punished me for lying. if you lie to them and get found out or admit to it they will never let you off the hook for it like they want us to do for all the lies they tell. mine lied through the whole relationship and i think told me even more lies after we ended it . very interesting though painful as it is.

Ox Drover

“He is the lie”–sometimes the smallest sentences can convey the most information. This is one of them. It applies to all psychopaths, of all times.


The only true things my S said (besides name, rank, and serial #) were, during the end, he said (of himself) “I am a liar” and “I am a piece of s _ _ _”. EVERYTHING else was a lie, he twisted and turned every truth upside down. He said despicable lies about his ex-wife, and others. He is a liar. He is the lie! Never again, one lie and they’re out.



The Bad Man did the same thing.. holding my head to the mat about a “lie.” There was a time or two when I did not tell the complete truth upfront about something because I had learned by then that it would get blown out of proportion, be taken out of context… but then, I fessed up. (I am thinking of my scandalous salad date that I mentioned somewhere else in the blogs.)

Sociopaths or disordered folk just want to glom onto anything they can, any small moment where you lost it, or called them a name, or heaven forbid, lied… and they shine a big light on that and won’t let go because most of us don’t give them much to call us on. They have to look really hard to find something REAL to attack about our character. Bad Man was attacking me all the time but most of it was crazy stuff he made up… but now that I think about it… if I did something real like call him a name.. WHOA… that was juicy for him. Never mind that the list of names he called me would roll across the floor like Santa’s list of naughty and nice.

We, of course, are not saints.. but as a group.. there are many loving, honest people here at LoveFraud. We’re kind of nice people, don’t you think? Oh how Sociopaths love and hate that about us!

Jules, Aloha is right…

They have to take things out of context or attack on the slightest statement. Once when he had me livid, the last night we were out, I said “Do I wish you were different…” and was trying to finish with, “Yes, but I accept you for who you are and love you for that” but he interrupted and mocked me, repeatedly, sneering and mimicking me, “Did you hear that — do I wish you were different….do I wish you were different….do I wish you were different…” practically spitting and screaming it at me, all the while with this sneer and fake falsetto-y voice, like it was supposed to be me saying it.

I got tears in my eyes. Kept trying to explain but he wouldn’t listen. He was just looking for anything, for any reason to attack.

What had I done wrong? Proved I was ok without him or anyone else. Showed him that I knew what he was about. Oh, and I dared to ask him to love me and let me love him even though I knew things were seriously wrong with him. I wanted to stay by his side. Wanted to help him. Wanted him to be honest with me and we could find a way through this together.

My transgression? I wanted something real between us, and honest.

And for that, I had to be punished.

Ox Drover


It is frustrating to have them talk to us like that, to take what we say out of context, to sneer and ridicule our feelings, to make light of them, to denigrate us to the maximum possible point.

When my mother was “protecting” my P son from my “meanness” she looked at me that way and talked to me that way, and lied to me to my face, and the pain was probably the worst I have ever experienced….but I think even with her (and she isn’t a P, just a P-by proxy) I had to reach a point that I was so beaten, so hurt that I could not stand it any more, I could not stay in the DENIAL.

There were lots of things I didn’t like about the way my mother treated me when I was a kid, but even at 60 years old I TRUSTED her to not be viscious to anyone. When she was willing to lie to me, bald faced, I realized that there was nothing I could do to ever make her really be able to love me in a way a mother should love an adult child.

She was so perverted by her need to protect the Golden Child, the son she never had, from the person who was “persecuting him” and taking away the ONE THING in her life that she wanted, which was for him to get out of prison and come “home” before she died. By denying my own fantasy wish for that, and by doing what I could to see that he would NEVER get out of prison (I made a DVD that will go to the parole board even if I am dead when his next parole hearing is–and I left enough money in my will to hire lawyers to see that it gets to EVERY parole hearing he has until age 75)

She was SO ANGRY at me for doing that that I actually think she wished me dead if it would have taken that DVD out of existence.

This was AFTER she knew he had tried to kill me (and probably would have had her killed too) for the inheritence he thought he was entitled to. Even when the attempt had been made by the Trojan horse P on her other biological grandchild in an attempt to kill him.

What was a mother thinking to be this enraged, to protect a murderer that wished her only child dead? My P-son has her so roped into denial that even when she sees PROOF in his own handwriting that he is after the family assets and wants us dead so he can get them.???

The Ps not only use their own power but the people that they can rope in as “P-s by PROXY”–PEOPLE THAT WILL ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE SO ENABLING that they will DO anything to further the Ps agenda, to protect the P from “all harm” no matter how justified.

This is a woman who is respected in her community, who is intelligent, gutsy, and who I thought had good sense—but she too is in deep denial, emotionally invested in the P to the exculusion of everyone else in her life. Willing to give up ANYTHING just to “protect” him.

I would never have thought it possible, and when people on another blog told me to go NC with her, I couldn’t even imagine doing it. Now, I can’t imagine renewing any kind of relationship with her, except the few times a year I may have to have a 5 minute conversation with her about business.

I refuse to listen to any of her “NON-apologies” of “let’s just start over and pretend none of this ever happened.” NO I can’t and won’t pretend that none of this ever happened. To do so would be for me to DENY myself, my own worth. It doesn’t matter if the P gave birth to you, or you gave birth to them, or if they are not a “real” P but a P-by-proxy, it is still behavior that no one can endure and not suffer.

For months before the arrest of the Trojan Horse P and my DIL after the attempt on Son C’s life failed, my mother had denigrated me, lied to me, gaslighted me, raged at me, refused to look at documented evidence that validated what I was saying about the Trojan Horse bieng a sexual offender with a LONG CRIMINAL RECORD…etc. Even her narcissistic and arrogant attorney lied to me, sneered at me…

Now, I can look back at all this sort of like reviewing the plot of a movie I saw, but it isn’t like I lived it. Just like I can describe in minute detail the pain I felt in labor when my sons were born, even though I can put WORDS to that pain, I can NO LONGER Feel it like I did then. If that makes any sense.

Sometimes with emotional pain we can not only describe it but RE-FEEL it just like at the time it happened. I am now at a stage where I don’t RE-FEEL it–again if that makes any sense. I knew I DID feel it, but thinking about it no longer makes me flinch or cry or rage. I can look at it more rationally and talk about it or describe it, but in order to use those words I don’t have to relive it all over again.

What I did for months after the NC was to RE-FEEL and RE-live that pain, it will always be a memory like the labor pain, but the FIRE of it is no longer burning. I’m not sure if that was the Rapid Eye Movement therapy for the PTSD but possibly. Whatever it is I am so grateful to be free of the FIRE. And I am cautious around “hot” things, or things I think might be “hot” My P-dar is on 24/7 but I am not paranoid I don’t think about new people I meet unless they raise the RED FLAG, then I am very cautious around them. Since I am not compelled to be around them at work or other places I can move on much more easily. Which is good.



What/who is the Trojan Horse P? I have seen you references to this several times in the blogs. Thanks.

Ox Drover

Peggy, I wrote you a long answer to this question and it disappeared into cyberspace.

Short version. The Trojan Horse Psychopath was an exconvict sexual predator friend of my incarcerated P-son’s. He sent the man to rent a house from me as a way to “infiltrate” the family–who would suspect a renter in my state to be a convict friend of my sons, right?

He ended up becoming a very nice “friend” to the family, then installed himself into my mother’s house as her live in caregiver, had an affair with my daughter in law, and was working toward killing me (his mission) and making it look like suicide…however my son C caught the THP and my DIL more or less in the act, then they decided to kill my son, make it look like self defence and get possession of the money that they had persuaded my mother to put into the CARE of my DIL (to keep it away from me, of course)…complex plan and it might have worked if he hadn’t got caught with my DIL.

I had gotten a private detective when I found he was scamming money from mom and had all the goods on him, but he had my mom so hooked she wouldn’t even listen.

Even after he ended up telling her he was a sex offender and had to register (which is what clued me in–I have a friend in the sheriff’s office) mom wouldn’t listen to a word I said.

After I knew he was associated with my son in prison, I really got scared and figured out what was going on, and fled. After the arrest when he and DIL tried to kill son and leave with $$$ we were able to piece the rest of the story together from the letters my son had written to him giving him directions on how to manage the family! He had stolen our family trust original documents (mom had put them in safekeeping with DIL) and knew the terms of the trust, and if I died before she did, they could have gotten their hands on significant money.

If I out lived her, NADA, ZIP ZILCH, NONE, ZERO—

I have no doubt that if they had offed me, I wouldn’t have been cold in my grave before poor old grandma would have fallen and cracked her skull. Then my son C would have had an accident. Son D is adopted and is not included in the trust so they would just have tossed him off the farm. (but he would not have left empty handed) In any case, it all worked out for the best, and I truly believe that God protected me in this whole crazy plot or they actually might have succeeded.

The first Lie I caught TH-P in should have given me the clue, but I tried to be a “nice guy” and give him another chance. NO SECOND CHANCES FOR ANYONE—never again. Red flag ONE you are out.

Yes, Ox-D, I understand that concept – “re-feel it.” Great way to put it. I “re feel” some of the worse events with him – that night being full of them. He acted in the morning like everything was fine, but the way he treated me and the things he said the night before were vicious.

Weirdest thing…during the course of the evening when I wanted to go home he said, “Let’s go somewhere else, the night is young” or something along those lines, with this little smile on his face.

I felt right then at that moment that I was IN FOR IT that night. Whatever way he intended to D&D me was gonna go down that night according to his plan.

And…it did. He even invited me up to his apartment and I went, even after that sneering conversation in the bar. Lo and behold, he got even worse in the privacy of his house. He also informed me he did not love me — again with this sneering smile, as though enjoying inflicting the pain. Oh, hell….not “as though” — he does enjoy inflicting pain!

The first time he verbally abused me over the phone and was a complete and utter drunken a’hole I should’ve dropped him right then. Didn’t, obviously.

I can’t fathom what it must be like to have gone through what you’ve gone through, though – multiple cast of horrible people out to get you and your son. My mother favored her “golden child” too – my brother (both of us adopted from separate families). She turned her head and let him do whatever he wished…with some very horrible consequences. To this day she has a blind spot when it comes to him and will not acknowledge what kind of monster she created out of him by giving him free reign to terrorize.

God does seem to watch out for us, it seems. Finding this site when I was at the end of my emotional tether…learning what an N was completely by accident, not a week before that…everything fell into place and the scales fell off my eyes forever.

Maybe just coincidence, but it felt at the time like a guiding force was at work, trying to free me from the P’s prison. He’s not diagnosed, far as I know. He doesn’t do illegal things (again, far as I know!). But he is a sadistic, abusive, lying, cheating, gaslighting, manipulative, unethical, immoral, emotionally distant, sexually manipulative (withdraws or turns it on to get what he wants from you) snake in the grass whose actions fit every key note of the profile.

Walks like a duck…

Ox Drover


I love your last paragraph “but he is a sadistic, abusive, lying, cheating, gaslighting, manipulative, unethical, immoral, emotionally distant, sexually manipulative snake in the grass…”

I wish you would not HOLD BACK ON YOUR OPINON OF HIM, LOL I think you should open up and tell us what you REALLY think about him. LOL

Yea, they are ALL of that and more…

I’m sorry your mom is that way enabling your brother…it hurts when we try to be “good” daughters and we get the Scape Goat role instead where the “bad boy” gets the Golden Child role.

Since my mom had no son (I’m an only child) she adopted my P-son as the family bad-boy-golden-child to enable since that role didn’t have any other candidate to fill it in our family where the male bad boy is always the golden child, and usallly a P as well.

I’m NC with my mom, because she has become a P-by-proxy. I wonder if there are others here who have family enablers who fill that slot?

OxD- I believe that the xmil may fit the bill for P-by-proxy. She certainly has the enabling of the bad-boy-golden-child addiction down pat. She will lie and sacrifice anything and anyone without a second thought for a son who has been nothing but a source of pain, emotional drain, and bane of her existence since his pre-adolescence. He set fires and hurt animals as a child; lied, cheated, stole, did/sold drugs in his teens, and has been markedly increasing the severity of his crimes ever since. Everything is a “misunderstanding,” and, “He wouldn’t hurt anyone,” and “He’s my SON, I OWE him.”

What IS with that Golden Child syndrome anyway? It’s actually painful (and infuriating) to watch.

He was actually labeled anti-social in 1991 (per court documents that surfaced). She was told what she was dealing with- and she’s continued to bail him out and coddle him anyway. Again, it’s painful and nauseating to watch. Her daft husband has no idea their retirement has been hit, and hit hard. She’ll bankrupt them before she denies the pedophile a thing. She lives only to serve him. He, of course, only tolerates her when he wants something.

Ox Drover


Unfortunately Ps freqently in my experience target enablers; parents if they are available. Siblings or others if parents aren’t sufficient to keep the bailed out and supported.

When I was first exposed to “family role” theory in nursing school, I had little experience to identify with it, but I did SEE a few things that made me go “Uhhhhh” but I had been trained so much from childhood in how the roles should be played I didn’t actually flash on the severity of my own family’s roles until much later.

The theory back in the days when I went to school (back with the cave men) was that the fact that a child was labeled a GC and enabled no matter what he did CAUSED him to behave in bad ways….and there might be some truth to that, but it isn’t the total CAUSE as we well know now, there are some genetics involved in it. I think the “enabler” role is more the LEARNED BEHAVIOR in an effort to please mommie/daddy and keep the status quo in the family. It is true that sometimes that if a person in a particular role dies, leaves the family or whatever happens to them, that another member of the family may pick up that role and run with it in order to keep the family “balance”–dysfunctional balance but at least “stable” and knowing what to expect.

My mother was always an independent woman and the first in her maternal family to go to college and then to do well in the business world.

Her brother was a monster from a very early age, enabled by his mother by keeping his deeds SECRET. When my GM died, mom did a 180 degree turn and became the family enabler, protecting her monster brother–but she had no male child to label as the GC/monster so she “adopted”my P-son for that role.

I think if he had not stepped up to the plate and been a monster she would have focused on another grandson as the GC/monster, but because he was a P he DID step up to the plate and start causing problems as an adolescent. I don’t think she CAUSED it, but she certainally ENABLED him to continue–however, since Ps are not afraid of punishment, even going to jail, then prison didn’t teach him anything, all it did was refine his skills a great deal.

It DID very much surpirse me though how much more VIOLENTLY my mother enables my son than my grandmother did hers. GM only kept secrets, Mom is rabidly violent with her enabling and PUNISHES anyone who doesn’t comply or go along with the program.

Since I had only once before actually DEFIED her about this (years ago) and she had PUNISHED ME THEN, but I hadn’t actually defied her in the last nearly years since he was in prison continuously. But this last year when I actually DEFIED her, and went the opposite way to KEEP HIM IN PRISON she became enraged at me.

Of course now that she backed the wrong horse in the race and I am NC with her, my other sons barely communicate or talk to her, and she is having to hire caregivers and drivers, housekeepers, etc. rather than have family there for her needs, she is doing the Pity party bit, but still wants to play the “let’s pretend it never happened” game and I refuse to play. The D&D that she gave me, and the realization, finally, on my part that I am nothing to her has stripped out any vestage of me wanting to please her or caring if I please her or not. While I don’t think she is a P, except by proxy to protect her GC, she isn’t going to change at 78 yrs old. It would be more painful for her to admit than she is willing to endure. She has lost essentially everything but her delusions. The grandson that loved and respected her doesn’t trust her any more than he would a rattle snake.

The adopted grandson who loved her and respected her and that she D&D’s “because he wasn’t blood” (after years of being in our family) now has lost respect for her. He doesn’t hate her, but he sees what she is, and I am sure that he is disappointed that she D&D’s himm as well.

She has no one now and has lost face in the community, her church, and with her friends too. But we all have choices and we have the consequences to go with them. It is sad because they are not only victims, but they victimize themselves.


“I wish you would not HOLD BACK ON YOUR OPINON OF HIM, LOL I think you should open up and tell us what you REALLY think about him. LOL

Hah! 🙂 Emotionally I’m all across the board lately. Think maybe as good as Lovefraud is to share all this stuff, it’s dredging up these memories that are keeping me mired.

Get most vocal about the evil ways he had, and most vehement, when I’m feeling most uncertain. Like I’m trying to slap myself into reality, being my own best friend, or how I’d be with any friend or loved one who went through this with someone who was so clearly bad for them. Weird. Practicing tough self-love? I still sometimes miss the “good” even knowing better. Just posted that elsewhere on here. Hope that feeling goes away and stays away, because how can you miss “the good” when you aren’t even sure the good was REAL? When you’re pretty sure it wasn’t real and even if it was, it came with a whole lotta NOT GOOD, downright rotten?

“What is with the golden child syndrome?”

No idea. For my family, I think it was patriarchal, old country ethnic behavior. The BOY child… and when he got older, and impossible for anyone to handle, well, by then they’d boxed themselves into a corner. He’d take both of my parents on, physically and verbally, and they were getting too old and weaker than him. He still bullies them, abuses them. I’ve threatened to turn him in to adult protective services…and then THEY turn around and get upset with ME for even suggesting such a thing. Yet they come to me to tell me what he’s done and how sad they are. It’s all so horrible to watch, but I didn’t create it and it’s not my problem to fix.

Yes, they victimize themselves as you later stated. But they try to drag you into it, I suppose honestly, because they’re both scared and enabling.


Lil Orphan,

I did go through a phase where I started to feel that everywhere I looked, SOCIOPATHS! I might have been reading a little too much here. It is sad to hear so many bad stories…but even that feeling passed.

And the dredging up of feelings… been there too.

It’s all passing.. just like Gas. HAHA!

Sorry.. I am working with children these days and Fart jokes are big in that crowd.



I know how you guys feel about dredging up feelings. . . my husband commented on this lately that I’ve been mentioning things from this blog a lot and talking about sociopaths that I know and what they do. He says that these days I seem to be deep in thought much more often and I am not as cheerful as usual. That before I even seemed a little happier.

But then I told him that for me it is like cleaning the garage. It has been seven years since I was exposed to the abuse on a regular basis and just now I’m cleaning my garage out. Yes, it’s filthy, yes it’s full of who knows what living in there and yes, I need to get a little dirty myself to do it right. But once I get the junk out and make it nice in there, I’ll have more room for myself in my own mind. I don’t want there to be places in my own brain that I’m scared of exploring. I want the junk and the filth OUT!

Dredging things up is good if the purpose is just to clean them out. And even though I can see sociopaths everywhere now (they are, by the way) I know exactly how to handle them. NC or ignoring their crap as much as possible.


I also loved your description of your ex. Are you sure we weren’t seeing the same guy? I think I might have used those words to describe my ex as well, more than once, lol.

You also mentioned missing the “good” parts, and trying to remind yourself of the bad when you start feeling like you miss him. I was having this problem too, and I was talking to my counsellor about how to handle it. Her suggestion helped me, maybe it will help you too if you feel like trying it. This counsellor works with abused and/or battered women, and she recommended that I write down a list of the bad stuff I remember about my ex. It could be things he said or did to me, personality characteristics, things he did that were unethical, or whatever else came to mind. Then, when I start feeling like I missed him or missed the “good” stuff, go back and read that list.

It sounds really simple, but for me this exercise was very, very powerful. I put off doing it for the first couple weeks, because it sounded so simplistic, and I thought, “Well, I already KNOW he’s a bastard, why bother writing it down?” But, there’s something about seeing that record there in black and white that is very profound. For me, it drove it all home much more than just thinking about things in my mind.

When I did the exercise, I came up with 8 pages, typed, single-spaced, note-form, the first time I sat down to write. It just poured out of me. I’ve added other things to the list since then as I’ve remembered them. But the fact that I could come up with 8 pages without even stopping to think was pretty eye-opening in and of itself. I went “Wow, I knew there were a lot of reasons he was a bastard and that he’d been a jerk to me, but 8 PAGES?!? Wow.”

Anyway, doing this has helped me a few times when I’ve started feeling like I missed my ex. It’s also helped because my ex, like many abusers, blamed everything, including his crappy behavior, on me. And for awhile, I did buy in to his blaming me. Having that list has helped me also at times where I start feeling like maybe this was my fault. No, it was not. He is an S, end of story, and seeing things written down has helped drive that home and been somewhat healing for me.

I also put on the list ways I’ve seen him treat other people (eg. loses temper with coworkers, gets in fights), or slimy behaviors that weren’t necesarrily directed at me (eg. steals from work, drives drunk, etc.) This helped me to shatter the illusion he had tried to make of himself as being a good guy, if somewhat misunderstood. I can look at that list and reinforce “Wow, what a jerk”.


lil orphan ; i know mine told me when we broke up i dont love you and you love me more than i love you. bang take that on the chin. he is also a sexual manipulator and i do sometimes miss the good things . but he did a lot more bad things than good now when i look back the good things were just cause he was getting what he wanted out of me. also in regards to lists i could write a whole book about my ex husband s path and ex spath x boyfriend and other men who i have met who had issues and in fact probably s paths too it would be a best seller and people say to me all the time you should write a book. truth is its too sad to write a book about so much bad stuff i would rather write about something good. maybe if more good things happen to me i could write a book thats half good and half bad a bit more uplifting i think. lil orphan mine too planned he was leaving but i confronted him with something which made him dump me a little earlier but he was living under my roof and had made up his mind he was going. he just said after being confronted with another lie he told me, well you wont have to put up with my lies anymore cause im moving out. as soon as they are found out and questioned they run cant handle it. thanks for replying to my blog.

Aloha, Ariadne, Green Girl and Jules it was so nice to see confirmation of the fact that our emotions go back and forth about these guys. Some days, less and less but some, I still wonder if I’m not losing my marbles…one day I feel angry, the next I feel like I miss him, then I’m sure it all makes perfect sense from the perspective of being with a disordered person, then I blame myself, then I blame him, then I think…”well, maybe it just didn’t work out,” but then I remember some sneering, smirking comment about me, or about his lack of feelings for me, and other things he said and did, the other women he kept throwing in my face…and it’s back to square one: anger, feeling duped, feeling so many years were wasted being in love with an illusion . Deep down, I know he was The Lie, from the start. That anyone who really loves you doesn’t just go on their merry way for five years and emerge from the ether one day proclaiming they love you – the systemically try to tear you to pieces.

I love the gas analogy, Aloha and the garage, Ariadne. Both are apt. For awhile I stopped reading here and at the other N/P forums and though it seemed better, that’s when the sad feelings and uncertainty returned.

Will do what you suggest, green girl, and write it all out once more, in one place instead of spread across five journals from over the years.

Jules, I am working on a book of it, but a humorous look in some ways, really free-form and mostly just for my own eyes. Haven’t been working on it because of other freelance writing gigs that compete with a full-time night job.

The sickest thing is that deep down inside it’s true – I love him. Will probably carry that love with me for the rest of my life, and die with it. But I will never, ever see or speak with him again. Just can’t. If he has the slightest inclination towards hooking me again, I’m too worried it may work down the road.



I thought I loved the Bad Man too but I don’t and I didn’t. Once you can fully grasp that the “good things” were just manipulations, it gets easier to let go.

I would say that with the Bad Man, there was about 10 seconds in that whole relationship that was authentic… but then again, I might even be willing to let that go. *POOF*

Okay, well I did love some details about him. I loved that he was a Captain and drove big water craft. I loved that he had explored some places on Earth that I have only dreamed of. I loved that he loved the waffles I made for him. I guess those kind of things were real but what did I get out of these things? I got to make waffles. I got to be interested and fascinated by his traveles. I got a few boat rides. Still, none of these things really add up to a relationship that was worthy of my waffles. And the packaging. He had a beautiful package.. um I mean… he looked good. HAHA! That was funny.. that didn’t come out right but you know what I mean!! He was beautiful to look at.

One question I have pondered since the BadMan is this: Is love nothing more that beautiful packaging? I mean I see people fall all over themselves and put up with so much crap because they love to look at their partner. I have often felt that men are this way… and I guess I did it. I used to stare at Bad Man’s lips while he slept. They were beautiful to me. I even used to think to myself, “I could look at this face for the rest of my life.”

The funny thing is I am not a big vanity person. I am very down to earth. But the Bad Man’s packaging did have a very powerful effect on me like a chemical reaction was hitting me. I have never had that kind of chemistry going off in me just by looking at someone. The power of attraction. He was a Long Island Iced Tea… intoxicating. Even the sounds he made in the bedroom and the tone of his voice seemed to vibrate my cells. I am not trying to be steamy here.. I am just telling the truth. I thnk this is why I made the best choice and left the island. I just knew I would not be able to stay away from him if I stayed there.

To be honest, I never think about this anymore (with this moment an exception). I do have a picture of him though and I don’t feel those things anymore. I just see a sociopath when I look at it. But if I let my mind go there…

So yes, there are times when we miss them for one reason or another but think about what you would really want in a loving partner. Emotionally, he was none of those things.

I will tell you what turns me on now… SAFE AND BORING. I am just starting to see someone and so far, he is not terribly exciting. But he seems safe and I see that he is doing the right things for his children. That’s HOT. (as Paris Hilton would say) I don’t think he is really boring… it’s just that he isn’t showy and he reveals himself slowly in a good kind of way. He is being cautious and he is not rushing to give something away too soon or to take something from me. It seems like the most mature thing I have ever experienced. And perhaps, one day, I will have all the passionate feelings I had before but they will come because I feel safe with him. I do hope so.

Lastly, in time, the wavering and the waffling (hehehe) will go away. It has for me and I believe it will for you too. I am sure you will never forget your Bad Man but I think the love you feel for him may go away in time.

Remember… he is not the one that got away. He is the one you got away from. There is a very big difference.



I think that term “safe and boring” comes from women like us who are (were) used to men who make our hearts race and and give us goosebumps. But I think that calling that rush “love” is the biggest mistake we make. It’s hard to tell with all the romantic movies and myths in our culture telling us that romance is all those things, roses and chocolates and cheesy love ballads.

After my relationship with the N, I had no idea what love was. I lost my hope that it even existed. But I did learn what it was NOT. It is not someone “sweeping you off your feet” or surprise trips or a bottle of champagne in front of a fireplace. That can all be shared with someone who doesn’t care a whit about you. I shared things like that with him and I never knew who he was, even after three years. I felt as if we could be in the same room and talk but we never communicated as two human beings. The connection was not there. Fireworks, yes. But a connection, no.
I like aloha’s term “relationship crack.” It’s hilarious, but it is soo accurate. It is an addiction we suffer from, not only the ups, but the downs too. The ups make us feel loved (even if it’s an illusion) and the downs make us feel alive.

When I first met my husband, I thought (to be honest) that he was average and yes, boring. But as I got to know him, slowly I realized that he was someone I could respect because even when I wasn’t looking he spoke respectfully about me, he NEVER pushed me to do anything, he came through for me and took care of me when I was sick as a friend not expecting anything. It was not a whirlwind romance, it was more like a light breeze, slow and steady. I felt comfortable and content around him, not ecstatic, but content. It felt like home. For the first time in my life.

I think it was Lilorphan who just wrote that she is worried that good men aren’t out there. They are! I swear! Now you know what not to look for. That is the first step. I think all of us here have experienced non-love and even anti-love. But defining love is difficult because it is not so much an emotion, I think, but a state of being.

After living my whole life in a fog of insecurity and uncertainty, for the first time I feel like I’m about to land on the other side. It’s not as exciting as guessing what a disordered person is going to do next, but man, it’s nice over here.


It doesn’t sound like you are losing your marbles. It sounds like you are in pain, and grieving the loss of a relationship. With an S relationship, I think there’s an additional level of grief – not only did your relationship end, but you discover that the person you thought you loved didn’t really exist. It is a horrible feeling. Add to that feelings of betrayal, having been lied to, manipulated, possibly abused or ripped off financially – there is a lot to deal with when getting over a relationship with an S, that’s for sure.

I know at times it may feel like you are going crazy, but it sounds like it is in reaction to the craziness of having been with an S. Something else I heard from my counsellor that was helpful (not to sound like a broken record), was information about the “stages of grief,” because part of what we are doing when these toxic relationships end is grieving. I think there were 5 stages – denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance (or moving on or healing or whatever you want to call it).

These stages are not linear – you can be in more than one at a time, you can go through each stage a few times before you finally get to acceptance. This helped me to know that the reactions I was having were normal reactions to a very abnormal situation. There’s a really good blog I read that has a lot of information about getting out of bad relationships, healing, and grieving when relationships end. It’s at

Good for you in remaining committed to NC. It really will help. It’s not easy to admit that we are vulnerable to someone who has hurt us before, it actually takes a lot of strength to admit that to yourself.


My ex had a similiar kind of effect on me – intoxicating. We had a very, very intense physical and sexual bond. I’ve never had chemistry like that with anyone before. I hope, really hope, that someday I will find someone else that I can have that kind of connection to, who is healthy and treats me well. I miss it, even though I don’t miss him per se, or the other crap that came with the relationship.

lso, I think our perceptions of someone’s beauty can change based on our emotions about the person. I know for myself, when I first met my ex, I was very attracted to him, even though I didn’t think he was that good-looking. As he got me emotionally hooked though, and as the hormone and endorphin rush got going, that changed. After a few weeks I thought he was absolutely gorgeous. Maybe once you and your current partner (or a future partner) establish more a connection, the passion will be there?

righteous woman

GreenGirl and everyone else who feels this way:

That is one thing I can’t get past myself. The sexual bonding. And he knows it is there, because back when I was stupidly honest, I admitted it to him. So that is where he goes to abuse me.

I have the same hope, that someday, I will get that same connection from a mentally sound, healthy man. It makes me feel good to read an entry like that. It helps to validate those last feelings I have that I have not been able to evacuate from my memory. They are the best memories. It was where we worked everything else out. Bonding sexual experience, followed, sometimes, by talking for hours, eating, laughing and caring for each other. I accept now it was all a lie, but it is the one and only thing I miss. I don’t admit it to anyone, cause I feel weak for even thinking it.

Ox Drover


The sexual bonding and the “perception” of “looks” is something I have noticed too.

My late husband was anything but “good looking” by anyone’s standards, even as a young man. He had a huge nose that got larger as he aged, and as he aged he gained weight (he had been a very fit athlete when he was younger) but not only me, but almost every woman from 6 to 96 was attracted to him sexually. There was something about him that was so seductive, made you feel so special that you just “loved him” from the get go.

I never was sure about what it was, but he could look at me and I would melt on the spot. He wasn’t inappropriate in any way with other women, it was just that he was one of these people that women were obviously attracted to, felt comfortable with.

My son D used to laugh at the “old folks holding hands” because as we sat and read, or watched TV or whatever we were doing, we were touching. He never stopped looking at me with the look of adoration, nor me him. That was very special, and that “look of adoration” was what I saw on the face of my P-x BF AT FIRST, but it didn’t last like REAL love does. It is only the bait in the BAIT AND SWITCH game that they play.

The wonderful “hormonal rush” that you get with “new love” lasted a long time with my husband and me, but even after it was gone, there was a level of contentment that transcended what words can describe…it was just a special caring, a trusting and a knowing that the other person put you FIRST, always put you FIRST….above all others….

I wanted that again, so badly, that I fell for the FAKE “adoration” offered by the P–that wonderful smile that comes when they see your face after an absence, of a day or an hour–just glad to see you. To be with you. I missed that so much.

Reading this all and want to absorb it and respond to some key points you all mentioned. You guys have such great ways of looking at things, having been through all of this, too, and have gone through various stages.

Greengirl, I think said they have a magnetic pull, not from acting inappropriately. He definitely had that, but you know, it was pretty indescriminate. Almost male-whorish. It wasn’t deep, or profound, or based on his having any kind of personality to back it up. Just Alpha-Male dominance – he was clearly the guy who Didn’t. Give. A. Shit. about anyone else but himself. And for some reason, I think a lot of women find that quality perversely attractive.

Except one of my best friends. She told me she’d kill me if I brought him to another of her events because “arrogance comes out of his pores.” Hahaa. She saw right through.

But once they score that initial attraction, they can’t do anything much with it, really. It requires tools they don’t have to create a real connection. And we feel that lack. We don’t know what the cause is, but you can feel that sheer superficiality of it all.

Righteous Woman your paragraph really described how things used to be between me and The Wolf, years ago:

“They are the best memories. It was where we worked everything else out. Bonding sexual experience, followed, sometimes, by talking for hours, eating, laughing and caring for each other. I accept now it was all a lie, but it is the one and only thing I miss. ”

We had this fantasy relationship, back then, sporadic, completely without rules, both of us pretty newly divorced people. I thought that was what was keeping him from becoming real with me…his own divorce and both our fears of getting involved too much too soon. So we never got too deep. I was wrong as to why, though.

Then this time, we were more like a regular relationship, he was trying most of the time to do what a regular guy would do in a relationship when not being abusive, gaslighting, withholding, etc. (that sounds hilarious as I type it…) but no love was coming from him. No sense of him ever putting me first, EVER. I wanted even again to feel the love he emanated during the first years we were seeing each other. That was actually much more real and you could feel it. But this person…was a shell of that person. Figured maybe those feelings were placed with someone else and I had some kind of “purpose” to him, but he no longer had feelings for me.

It honestly felt like he was going through the motions, most of the time, like you describe, Ox-D the fake adoration. One of the rare times I saw that total adoration on his face it was directed towards one of his “best friends” wives. Which creeped me out.

Guess I’ll never know what was up with all that and whether or not his “love” was going elsewhere. Thing is, anyone who can love someone else and spend most of his time with another woman he doesn’t love but he says he does…well, there you go — disordered. Doesn’t much matter what his exact situation was, the fact that he dragged me into it, inserted himself into my life again under false pretenses…well, all of it was unethical and a lie. And that’s not love…love is not superficial beautiful packaging. Think that’s where WE all actually started to sense the disconnect. Where things didn’t add up. We had the packaging, but not the depth of what came with it — because they were not capable of it.

Ox Drover

I may be an “old foggie” but that is one reason am so not for “casual” sex…not just for “moral” reasons or “STDs” but I think that having sexual relations before you get to know someone well–VERY well—leads more to the “bonding hormones” and especially for a woman than even for a good man.

That hormonal surge that sex releases tends to focus the relationship on that and bond us (women) to them before we even really get a chance to know them.

I’m certainly no prude, and I really think sex is wonderful, if, and I say, IF, it is between two COMMITTED adults–but having sex BEFORE commitment seems to bode bad in my estimation for the relationship. Leaves us (women especially) more vulnerable to becoming “blind” to other things.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said “things are sinful because they are bad for you, not (labeled) bad because they are sinful.”

To me this deal of “friends with benefits” thing wouldn’t work simply because if I were sexually intimate with someone who was a “friend” I would feel more drawn to them than just “friendship” so would be setting myself up to be hurt. I know some people who can pull that relationship off, but I am not one who could.

To say nothing of the fact that there are some KILLER STDS out there today and I’m not interested in that for sure.

In a relationship with a P who is having indiscriminate sex with gosh knows who–they are risking your life every time you go to bed with them. To me that is like using a gun on me, even if it isn’t loaded and you point it at me, the one I point back WILL be loaded.



I have told this new man clearly that I DO NOT want to be swept off my feet.

I am unsure of what LOVE is supposed to be like now and for a long time, I was sad that I knew it wouldn’t even be like the euphoric days with BM. Even though early on there were signs, those days were still the happiest in my life. How sad.

And yes, it is our culture that says it’s supposed to be chocolate and roses and raomance and being swept off your feet. When my younger sister became engaged and seemed so happy, I asked her first, “Is he too good to be true?”

I joke around a lot here and make fun of what happened but the truth is, I am deeply sad and disappointed in a lot of things about life. Mainly that my sister is beating me to the alter. HA! That stinks… She just turned 30 and I am turning 39 in a few weeks. At this point, if I ever get married… I don’t even want a big romantic thing. I don’t know if I would feel safe with that. I don’t believe in all that stuff anymore. My sister is doing her big thing… blah blah… but I have already fallen on my face after what seemed like the happiest time of my life. So, I don’t even want to climb up that high again. It’s a long, long way down.


It is kind of sad that the euphoric period isn’t there like it is with a S or N, but I guess that nice guys don’t need that to “hook” a woman. Since S/N’s know that they are going to put their partner through hell later on, they need to start the relationship with a bang to get them addicted.

I can totally relate to the sex thing too, as embarassing as it is. It was really good at the time. But after I got married to the nice guy, I realized that even though it wasn’t as explosive or frenzied as with the N, it was better because he actually cares about me! He puts me first and that is sexier.

When I was with the N, sex was a way of getting some intimacy in the relationship because otherwise I didn’t feel connected to him at all. So even if he didn’t feel bonded to me afterwards, it was a hormonal shot in the arm for me every time. I felt like if it is this good, then we must have something together, right? But it was all in my head.

It’s really sad because we feel like we are giving ourselves in this vulnerable way to someone else and it doesn’t mean anything to them. When I think back, I realize that some things that we did were only for him to exert control over me in bed. Now to think of them makes me want to puke. My husband would NEVER do anything like that to me because he actually respects me. I even found out that the ex talked about me and our sex life to his skeevy friends after the breakup. THAT really hurt.

But you know, I think that giving up a little bit of euphoria in the beginning is a small price to pay for being able to find someone that will cherish you and love you unconditionally even after the new relationship feeling is over.

“but I have already fallen on my face after what seemed like the happiest time of my life. So, I don’t even want to climb up that high again. It’s a long, long way down.”

Funny, was reading posts going backwards from bottom to top…and didn’t realize you wrote this, but that was an “aha” when seeing your name. You put it perfectly.

My daughter got engaged a few days before Christmas. They live together, are constantly together, and while I’m happy for her, I don’t trust it. Also felt just awful when they got engaged…you know, happy for her but just a whole lot of other emotions.

One of my closest friends is getting married in a few weeks. Again, happy for her…she’s loved this guy forever. They were far from ideal for a long time. She loved him but it didn’t seem returned aside from friendship. Again, am happy for her but it raises all those other feelings….like “Am I the only person who loved someone and was totally duped? What am I doing wrong?? Why didn’t I get who I really loved and wanted and why wasn’t he really there – are these guys really there?”

Helluva drop, isn’t it?

Sometimes it just seems safer here on terra firma. Maybe no real highs, like we felt with our Bad Men, but no devastating falls, either.

Ox Drover

Aradne and Aloha,

I can relate to both of you and what you say–not wanting the big wedding etc, Aloha. I don’t think that is just because you have had the P experience, but just because you know that an expensive and flashy wedding doesn’t make a RELATIONSHIP. You are more mature. Less dazzled by “splash”—besides, your sister has a 50% chance of divorce, keep that in mind. Big wedding or not.

I had the big wedding the first time through because I just thought that was “what people did”—

Ariadne, I don’t agree that you have to give up the euphoria at the beginning, maybe before you get to know the guy, like no “INSTANT” EUPHORIA, but as you get to really know him, and to fall in love with him, the euphoria does come–it’s the hormonal surge. I’m not sure that we can NOT have it since it is chemically produced by the body.

Sex to the P is a SOLITARY pursuit–they just use us like blow up dolls and carve notches on the bedposts for the “best blow up doll–mine is better than yours (to their friends)” Like little boys talking about who has the “fastest bicycle or biggest skate board.”

Love with a good person I think can be as exciteing and as stimulating as with the P if we look at it correctly. My late husband was a terrible “gift giver”—I dont’ think he ever gave me a gift that was really what I wanted, he forgot birthdays, and the last year before he died our anniversary, but he was a bit of an “absent-minded professor” but the GIFTs that he gave me of his time, his effort and his love to DO things for me that I cared about and he didn’t–those were wonderful “gifts” even if he did get me a new toaster for Christmas or a car once that HE loved and I HATED…and a horse that nearly killed me. I can laugh at those things looking back, and even then could laugh at them, because they were just PART OF WHO HE WAS…I appreciated the THOUGHT that went with the “gift”–and the best gifts that he gave me were the day to day things that he did FOR me because he knew they were what I wanted or needed.

He encouraged me, told me how smart I was and how proud of my accomplishments he was–what kind of price can you put on such a “gift” as that–and yet it didn’t cost a dime? Those are the GIFTS that I remeber and cherish. I have about 30 letters that he wrote to me when we were separated by distance, short notes mostly or inside cards, but I keep them in a folder/notebook and when I feel really worthless I can reread them and know that’s not so.

The P held out to me a “fake version” of that REAL love, and because I was vulnerable, I grabbed for it–the brass PLATED RING that appeared to be golden. Araiden, I am glad that you have found a wonderful man and Aloha, I pray that you find your REAL prince. But I hope both of you will come to realize and appreciate that the REAL thing can be just as exciting and a lot more satisfying than the FAKE.

The “roses and romance” fantasy is just that and doesn’t last, but a man who is there through thick and thin is pretty wonderful too.

“The “roses and romance” fantasy is just that and doesn’t last, but a man who is there through thick and thin is pretty wonderful too.”

I’ve never had that, peggy. My ex was not proud of my accomplishments. His friends were. They read all the college newspapers when I was editor and writer. He dismissed them. He dismissed me, entirely. I married my family of origin: the dismissive mother, the father who was the life of the party and great to everyone but his family and the violent, abusive brother all rolled-into one person! Stellar. And he’s a totally lousy father to his kids. Now that they’re older, they talk about it openly…and I feel so bad for them. They call him “Father Christmas” because that’s the only time he bothers to call or see them since 2004. I was interchangeable to him, a warm body to cook, clean and sleep with him. His current wife seems happy with that. But then again, according to our girls, she’s pretty devoid, also, emotionally.

Really know I want someone like you describe, someone who truly loves you and puts your relationship first. Someone who shows you they love you, if they cannot tell you.

There has to be something in me that keeps me from getting this.

Last night my youngest went to work with me and we were talking. It dawned on me that she is the only person in this world whose heart and soul I truly understand and maybe the only person who has ever shown what unbreakable, unconditional love really is. I know that even if she says or does things that hurt from time to time they are NEVER done maliciously, but from love.

Guess maybe that’s more than some people have ever experienced, and maybe what I’m really wanting will never come my way. But if there’s something in me keeping me from meeting someone capable of it, I have to fix that thing.


I didn’t mean to say that there is no euphoria at all in a good relationship. You’re right, it’s there, but it’s a different kind. I felt excited with him, but I felt on-balance the whole time if that makes any sense. I felt like I could trust him after I thought I would never trust anyone again.

I read a quote once, I forget by who, but they said that marriage is about uncovering the “joyful mysteries.” That is another person’s layers of personality, their fears, their good points and every little quirk, to appreciate them and love them as only someone committed to them could. S’s don’t have layers, they are cardboard cutouts of humanity with nothing behind. So I think uncovering those joyful mysteries is as exciting (if not more) as what a sociopath has to offer as a copy, but it’s the real thing.

Oxdrover, it is lovely that you have such good memories of your relationship with your husband. He sounds like a wonderful man.


Hi AloaT, Jules, Greengirl, Ariadne. Good to see you are all still talking to each other, what a joy to get on my laptop and see you all there!! (((Hugs)))

Ox Drover


“joyful mysteries” that is great! And so true. Yea, my husband and I had great times…doesn’t mean we didn’t butt heads, because we did…he was an engineer, and they have twisted ways of looking at the world—not the glass half full, not the glass half empty—just the wrong size glass. He wanted to “improve” on any design, even one that worked fine! LOL and sometimes he “improved” stuff so that it wouldn’t work at all! LOL I am more practical but we worked out these things because we loved each other.

My son D and I were talking yesterday about my husband and my relationship, and laughing about some of his foibles and attitudes (in a good way) and about our differences.

It was only after his death that I found out about the “secret other women” in his life—but in a GOOD way. There was a diner that he frequently drank coffee at, and since it was sort of a family diner, he got to know the cooks and waitresses and the owner. There as one 65 year old waitress there that was very poor, and her car died, she had only about $1000 to replace it with, and since my husband knew cars backwards and forwards, he and son D spent two entire days going from used car lot to used car lot until they found the woman a reliable car for $1000. He never told me about this act of kindness.

Another waitress there, with a small child, had her husband beat the crap out of her and my husband and son D took our truck and trailer and moved her and her children to another place to live away from her abusive husband.

Those secret acts of kindness and I am sure there are probably also others, showed what a great man he was—what a kind and caring person. Where some women discover after their husband’s deaths that he had 3 girlfriends, I instead discovered the secret acts of goodness that mine did. You can only imagine how warm and good that made me feel.

The old saying “you don’t miss the water til the well runs dry” is true too—though I did appreciate him when I had him, I appreciated him even more when he was GONE. That I know made me much more vulnerable to the P BF at the time (8 months after my husband’s death) and I fell hook line and sinker for the bait. Because I had decided early o n that I would never take abuse, even verbal abuse, from a significant man in my life (lover, husband) etc. even though I was STILL in the fog about my P-son (and why that was different I don’t’ know but it was–I could see it in a man, but not in my son) when the P BF started his crap, I only endured a few months of it before I became in enough pain to toss him to the curb—and yes, it HURT to give up the dream of having again what I had with my late husband…and for a while after the P BF and I were broke up I even got on dating sites on the internet (another needy behavior in myself) I now realize that is too dangerous a game to play and fortunately I never got hooked by another P, though I talked to a few on the phone. Their red flags were obvious to me.

Now, I am content to live alone unless the RIGHT guy does come along, but won’t go “shopping” for one on the internet or anywhere else. I’d VERY MUCH like another good relationship, but if I don’t find one, I’m fine just like I am. I don’t feel NEEDY now.

Beverly, glad to see your “face” again, how are things going? Still have you in my prayers. (((hugs))))


I guess this is what I am angry about.. I wanted all those kinds of memories with a nice man. I am almost 40 now. I can never have that back. If I let myself think about it for too long, I get mad at the world.

My heart was broken by a Good Man and then a Bad Man. That sums up my 30’s.

I don’t get to do it over. And of course, I am happy for my sister but I have a little green monster in me sometimes. It’s not so much jealousy as it is pain.

My sister told me she wanted my Dad to escort me down the aisle as a special way to include us since she is not having me in the wedding party and she isn’t having Dad walk her down the aisle. (This I find so sad but Dad is okay with it… parents are divorced.) I thought about it for 5 seconds and then said, “NO WAY.” If I stand a chance of holding it together, I can not start the festivities with my Dad walking me down the aisle at my NOT WEDDING DAY. NO. That will not work for me. I fall apart every time I think about it.

The day is going to a ZEN meditation for me becaause I need to stay focused on the moment of HER happiness and keep my own disappointment in life for after the party when I go home and cry my heart out. Nothing is more pathetic than your 40 year old single sister at your wedding. I can just read people’s minds… “How sad. E never did find someone.”

Well, I am being pathetic and stupid now so I better go and have my pity party alone. I hate when I do this. I do have a lunch date today so I don’t want to show up with puffy eyes. HIT THE SHOWERS!

Me, too, aloha! Got divorced at 28 from an abusive guy and then met the N….spent the next ten-twelve years madly in love with HIM. Hahahaha. Now I’m 41. And alone still.

As I type, I’m laughing. It’s so absurd!!

You are always so strong. I really think maybe we should stop strolling down even quasi-good memory lane if it’s upsetting either you or anyone else.

But you know, do you believe in the motto: “Wherever you are is where you’re meant to be, no matter if it feels otherwise?”

I really do believe the way things are is the way they are meant to be…for now. And we never know why until it’s hindsight.

We’re 40…we’ve earned the right not to give a damn what other people think about our choices, or justifying our lives to anyone other than ourselves.

Stay strong. Envision all those guests at the wedding dressed in french maid costumes! Especially the men!


Looking at things with ‘new eyes’ as it were – I realise that many of us women and a few men have a tremendous capacity to put up with, be patient with, etc etc and these are all tremendous qualities. Problems come when we struggle with choices we have made and exercise these qualities which kind of temporarily cements us into a situation. Sometimes we just dont realise what the deeper implications are of choices we have made, jobs we took, people we met, places we lived. In a sense we may be lied to in different ways, why the last owner of our dwelling left, or our predecessor left the job etc etc.

I have learnt to ask questions and more questions to discover the past before I put myself into some elses tracks. I asked many questions with the exN, but didnt get satisfactory answers. If we are to learn to really value ourselves and value where we place ourselves, we have learnt off the back of these terrible encounters a really life changing lesson.


I am finishing a beautiful book called “A Year by the Sea” by Joan Anderson. A woman who left her ‘regular” life for awhile and went to live in their summer home, alone by the sea. She rediscovers herself through her past, her hopes, fears, mistakes etc and expresses all the same thoughts we all have – sometimes laughing at oneself and sometimes crying.

One quote I related to during this time of “aloneness” that some of us are trying to tiptoe through:

“To arrive where you are, to get there from where you are not, You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstasy”.

Its hard to be alone after the HIGH the S made me feel. Its hard to imagine how and when another relationship could even come along. Or how to scrape myself up, and dust myself off and lose the poor self-esteem he left me with. But I guess these days of “lacking in ecstasy” are a time for healing, refocusing, learning to place boundries, rediscovering who I am after so much of “me” was stolen by the S.

It is hard to realize that a new, healthier relationship might not be the ecstasy he created, the fake highs that you thought were real but now I’d treasure the solitude of mind with a man you could trust, someone who actually had your best interest at heart and gave of himself as you give to him. I’m just not sure anymore how to recognize that when I see it?



What you said was so true. I made so many decisions that led me to this spot in which I am sitting… or should I say, this hole I am slowly climbing out of… now I constantly plan and think to myself… if I do “this” or “that” will it lead me to where I said I wanted to go? I can’t say that I made the wrong choices but I did make choices. Sometimes in choosing one thing, were are eliminating another.

Anyway, I hope you are feeling well and kicking the C-word. Let us know how you are doing. You are one of my ladies at LoveFraud. :o)


Ox Drover

I just kind of flashed on something Findingmyselfagain said.

The “healthier relationship might not be the Ecstasy he created.”

Do you think maybe the “ecstasy” might be the DRUG HIGN and right now we are in WITHDRAWL, like a heroin addict during the “cold turkey”?

After we go through the “cold turkey” withdrawal, we still crave that “drug induced HIGH” that “Real life” can’t duplicate. That craving still “speaks” to us the way it does to the heroin addict.

I think that for me at least, I have stumbled upon the fact that the TRUE analogy of it all is that for me at least, it is just like an addiction and the Heroin addict. I was “hooked”—

I had “seen” the analogy before and thought about it, but not realized the TOTAL depth of it–at least for me. The “cold turkey” period, and then listening to the “siren song” and being drawn back into wanting him. (Nods head, gets this profound look on face, purses lips, then sighs) LOL


OxDrover – you are so right! And the heroin addict probably knows at some level that what they are doing makes them sick, is unhealthy, a risk, a high price to pay for a little “high” and somehow yet cant stop. They are always looking for the next fix and sacrifice much to just have a little more (of him). Once they go thru rehab – its still a battle but at least they have their eyes fixed on their goal of abstaining from that which they think they wanted. Its all such a parable for what leaving an S is like. You could go on and on with the similarities. I guess this blog is our Narcotics Anonymous group… or rather Narcissist Anonymous.. NA works for both! LOL



I agree with your theory. I can’t recall if I posted this website previously. But with your interest in animals and previous references to cows, rats, and well, ducks…check this out. I think it relates to what you are saying.


Hi Beverly,

I am really glad your surgery went well! God bless and keep posting to let us know how you’re doing. 🙂

Oxdrover and findingmyselfagain,

That heroin comparison is so true! But the difference is if someone tries to quit heroin cold turkey, no one says to them “get over it already!” LOL


That’s the tough part in healing – its such a silent pain we deal with. No one “gets it” as they would if we were trying to quit drugs. You have to do alot more self-support rather than getting true support and understanding from others in your life. At least with drugs, you have a sponser that you can call when you are feeling weak~theyve walked in your shoes and can help you overcome the lure and desire to delve back into your addiction. With this, you are pretty much on your own as far as deep understanding of what you’ve been through – except of course for you ladies~ you all understand 🙂

Ox Drover


I think that is right because when you (or anyone) breaks up with a normal healthy relationship or just an “ordinary” break up, you grieve but you get over it relatively quickly, and I’ve had those, so I know how they feel—but the addictive quality of the P=break up is the siren song that calls us back and back and back, remembering the HIGHS and forgetting the pain of the “being out of a fix” or “getting some bad shit” (to continue to heroin analogy.

It makes me wonder what is going on chemicaly in the brain when we get this SUPER HIGH from the P fantasy. What makes it a SUPER HIGH not just the “ordinary” high we get from any episode of falling in love. Wouldn’t that be interesting to know?

I loved my husband, I adored just being around him, and got a “high” just from his presence and the “hormonal honeymoon phase” was great, but I must admit it wasn’t anything like the “SUPER HIGH” I got from the P’s fake adoration. WHY? Beats me. But whatever it is I did get ADDICTED to it. It was tough to put it down.


That phenomenon is crazy really ~ Its like in my brain I know all the horrid reasons I dont want to be with the man (tho I am now getting over the desire much more) – but there is some little part of your brain, that even though you know full well you do not belong in a relationship with him, that little teeny part just doesnt let go. Maybe like a cigarette smoker who’s quit, gets a little smell of smoke and the habit whispers to you how good it would be to just have one.

I sure dont know either, what it is that brings the super-high. I guess for me, one thing was that he had me figured out SO well that he knew how to be the perfect man in my life on the surface. Not perfect to where it seemed silly, but perfect where you just felt like you finally found the right thing and how fortunate that was.

But then as the mask and shell started to crack and you begin to realize the depths of deception – it wasnt like a normal breakup with just any guy. It was a greater letdown, a disappointment to deeper parts of you that allowed yourself to feel so deeply towards him.

I still feel shocked to this day, that a human being is capable of being so two-faced. The ability to have no conscience is beyond my grasp. I dont ache for him anymore, but I still feel complete bewilderment that someone could pull one over– so cruel and mean– on someone that gave their all, loved deeply and for how often both of us stated how wonderfully matched to each other we were. Unbelievable.

It’s the objectification…my P r/s was not sexual, though he would have loved to get that, I STUPIDLY thought that he must really like me that he would just be friends with me. I know, I know- what am I 16?

Yeah- it was a huge loss when I realized deep, deep down I was USED. He’d be using me today. I still have to see the idiot and he still tries to use me for my connections, my attention. He tried today in fact. I have not spoken to him in 11 months= but he still tries to interact with me. He doesn’t get the fact me- the attention appliance- is broken. He taps to see…
I have mastered the blank stare. And I want to report- just to acknowledge somewhere….I officially DO NOT CARE, I have NO FEELINGS. I don’t even think I could muster up screaming unless he tried something new, or spoke directly to me. I have NOTHING.

He’s disordered, so sick he reeks. And now that he is desparate for attention, he literally walks about constantly and tries to chat with anyone, ANYONE. Thank God most people have the good sense to run the other way. He is lecherous I see it in vivid color now- I have nothing for him.

Why I ever did, I don’t know? I wonder who that person was, what she got from the P?

The addiction I don’t get, other than they pour it on- and I do think they have more testerone and the power of evil. I think evil is it really.
And the devestation we feel? Well, what crushed me was his insistence that I was crazy to have believed he wanted to be my friend, that I had imagined everything, that I was crap to be scrapped off his shoe. No one- save my parents in their neglect- has talked to me like I was less than human. No one, not a stranger, not a former boyfriend, no one- he knew me, I was more than kind to him and he disemboweled me with a dull knife. And then he smeared my reputation…

Yeah- I think that sums it up.

Ox Drover

This “addiction” thing I don’t think applies to JUST the male/female relationship, but to any relationship with any P. Finding out your mother is a P, or your father, or your sibling, or your child. It is the same betrayal, the same addiction, because you truly love them and expect that they love you in return. Finding out that they have NO concern for you, above an OBJECT, and facing that reality is devestating. To find out that a family member is malicious bursts the bubble of your addiction to them as well.

I’ve experienced a P as my parent, as my child, and with the X-BF as a significant other, and had a boss or two that I would bet the bank was a P, and done business with a couple of Ps, so I think I have about “seen it all”–and they are all devestating and crazymaking and “memorable” experiences. LOL


aloha; hi my situation is just like yours i am divorced married a s path alcoholic young , then recently had the relationship with the s path. now single and trying to get over all the hurting. my sister who is older than me is getting married in ten weeks and i am wondering how i am going to handle that day i am happy for her and she deserves this, but i am jelous and angry if i think too much about it like you but i feel very guilty for feeling like that so i am trying to be positive. it is hard i dont even know if i will have a date for the wedding, how awful will it be to sit there with all my relatives, we have a lot all on my own how depressing and i know how people talk i can hear them oh shes a lovely person but cant see m to keep a man dont know whats wrong with her. anyway i would be glad just to have a date for that day to make it bearable for me . but i am doing it for my sister and my parents they will be happy and so they should. mind you i dont think much of the guy she is marrying neither does my father but its her choice so i am happy for her. i just get mad at the world sometimes like you too. i also agree with all of you the sexual attraction is powerful but i think they try so hard to be good at it cause they know they have nothing else to give and no real depth. they use the sex to make us think hey this is so special, but i now think hey anyone can have good sex if they try that hard, sometimes mine was so passionate it did seem like an act its part of them getting you hooked. the addiction thing i also agree with but like you all i dont understand it either i think it is the flattery in part, and maybe just us wanting so much to be loved and they give us that, its just that false security feeling that they love us so much, but do they? i also think that when you break up with a normal guy you both after a while accept it and leave each other alone even if you remain friends they do get on with what they want and leave you alone. but the s path cant handle losing remember so he keeps it going after its over in some way sex or phone calls or whatever they keep the addiction going when it should be over and they should just move on and leave us alone but they dont they keep us in the loop in case they want to use us for something they need. so in doing this they dont let us get over it move on and forget them. i was after our break up trying to be nice and that was a big mistake firstly he didnt deserve that anyway and then it was me being nice that made it so easy for him to use me and hurt me allover again. its a game and they really think every one is at the disposal of them for really is all about them, and if they are getting what they want and you are behaving the way they want all the time the relationship is working but when things shift or change or go against them they dont like it and things start to change for the worst. and you start to see the real man. hope this made some sense. the thing i hate is now i doubt nearly every guy and find it hard to trust especially when first getting to know someone new. kind thoughts to you all.

Ox Drover

Aloha and Jules,

Not being “judgmental” or “critical” in any way of your feelings about your sister’s weddings, but both of you seem to be more worried about what “other people will think” about you being unmarried and your sisters getting married.

You have both “written the dialog” for what these other guests at the weddings will be thinking or gossiping about to each other to your detriment.

In reality, they will most likely be so focused on the bride that they won’t be thinking much about you at all, and even if they
DID think all these petty things? SO WHAT?

Just “being married” isn’t a “goal” for either of you now is it?

I realize that “feelings” are yours—but we can by “self-talk” change those feelings into more positive ones.

After my husband’s death, before I was involved with the P BF it was because my feelings and my self talk were “I’m old and ugly and ya da” and “no one will ever want or love me again” now 2+ years later, I am still the same person on the OUTSIDE but I don’t feel “old or ugly or unlovable” any more.

My physical appearance hasn’t changed, and I’m actually a bit older, and I still would love to have another life mate for what is left of my life, but MY FEELINGS have changed about not having a life mate. My THOUGHTS have changed. I don’t worry what other people might think about.

As I grew up my mother’s mantra seemed to be “but what would the neighbors think?” We lived our life, it seemed,, by other people’s judgments and opinions. Her greatest fear seemed to be what others would think.

I no longer FEEL that way—other people’s pity, or negative views of me–(spitting sound here)

Just like “getting over” the P takes time and EFFORT and doing what you know is best, even if it is counter to your feelings at the time (Like NC even when your feelings tell you to call him) you can change these feelings about what others will think about your sister being married and you not. And you can change your OWN feelings about your sisters being married and having something that you would also like to have.

Yes, I would love to have that life mate, but it no longer is the prime goal of my life to “find him”–I am living my life, and making myself happy and if he comes along, great, if he doesn’t, that is still great–my life isn’t dependent on having something or some one, or diminished by others having something I would like, or by anyone else’s opinion. I feel FREE and self sufficient maybe for the first time in my life.


There are lots of single women and men these days. Just look at and see the 1000’s upon 1000’s. Somewhat I think the expectations to show up married is changing. Besides, many of the married couples secretly WISH they had a free, independent life like we do! LOL

OxD is right – we have alot of control over the image people will project onto us by our own self-esteem and showing up as a happy and centered woman. I find myself going to places alone lately alot. Girlfriends arent always free, as they are all married, have little children or pregnant and tired out already. I have a little internal pity party sometimes, as you look around and ‘everyone’ seems to be with someone. But reality is if I think about it, how many times I have been out with a guy, and completely in turmoil in my heart and head. Being free of that, be it going alone to something or not… I’d much rather have the peace of mind.

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