“The motivation (for lying) is particularly baffling in endogenous deceit when the psychopath may appear to have everything he wants yet continues quite predictably to commence the manipulative cycle.” So says Dr. Reid Meloy in The Psychopathic Mind, p121.
“I don’t think they even eat an ice cream cone just for pleasure, I think they do everything for the effect it has, or the image it presents. It isn’t about what is REAL it is about what they can appear to be. To them, I think, if they can get others to believe it, then it becomes “reality” as far as they are concerned.” So says Ox Drover in a comment on this blog.
There is complete agreement about one thing regarding sociopaths, that is lying defines them. While studies show that many people lie daily, the lying behavior of sociopaths differs in both degree and kind from “normal” lying. Sociopaths do not just misrepresent the truth in small ways to spare someone’s feelings, avoid an argument or avoid trouble. Sociopaths misrepresent themselves and this misrepresentation extends to everyone they know. (For more advanced readers, there may not be much of a self there to misrepresent.)
You don’t need a checklist
So today I can tell you with confidence that you don’t need a checklist of symptoms or a forensic expert. If you are astounded by another person’s capacity to lie and misrepresent reality you can be sure you have encountered a sociopath.
I said a few weeks ago that I think Meloy’s book The psychopathic Mind is a great contribution to humanity. In this book, Meloy puts forth the idea that we can identify “psychopaths” by observing what he calls “the psychopathic process.” I searched the book for a precise definition of “the psychopathic process” and couldn’t find one but he implies that psychopathy is defined by the way a person interacts with others and with him/herself. He also says that it is possible to identify a “psychopath” by the way that person makes you feel. If you can look within yourself and monitor your own reactions you can learn to tell when you are face to face with “the psychopathic process.”
It doesn’t “work” on me anymore!
I have learned what it feels like to be “worked” and because I know what that feels like, “it” doesn’t work on me anymore. Sociopaths do not just lie, they work people. Their relationships are an occupation for them and it’s not just a job, it’s an adventure. They will even work when there is no apparent reason to. Why do they do this? They do this because there is nothing else they can do. They have little or no capacity to look within and find an inner compass of values and pleasures. As Ox Drover points out, the only real pleasure they have is their “work.”
Dr. Meloy gives a great example of a psychopath “at work” on page 138 when he discusses a professional who was “worked” by a psychopath. Knowing that he was going to be assigned a certain probation officer, the psychopath asked others who knew her about her interests. On discovering that the woman was interested in metaphysics and the writings of Alfred North Whitehead, the psychopath went and read the writings. He then gained the respect and admiration of the P.O. because he discussed these writings as if he too had a genuine interest in them that predated his knowledge of her.
Meloy says, “He does not just play the role, observing the limits of his character, but lives the part.” People are taken in by the psychopath’s work because in the moment the psychopath really thinks and feels the part. His part is real and yet also a deception.
You know you are being worked when the things you love/enjoy are mirrored in this way. You can tell the difference between this mirroring and real sharing by the extent to which the other person tries to build your enthusiasm and point to the apparent “twin-ship” you share. This mirroring and twin-ship can occur with big things as in the metaphysics example and it can occur with little things as in the ice cream example.
Now if you know what I am talking about, you have been worked; you are likely far along in the recovery process because you know what this feels like. If you have only a vague notion of what I am saying, Dr. Meloy has other words of wisdom for you.
In the psychopathic process there is a “complete disconnect between words and actions.” If you notice that a person’s actions point south and their words point north, you are dealing with a sociopath. To be concrete, if the person says they love you and either doesn’t spend much time with you, or repeatedly harms and stresses you, you are in the middle of a psychopathic process. But remember since the person “lives the part” at the moment he/she is with you and says “I love you” there is some vague reality to the statement (especially if the person has the disorder in a lesser form, see last week). To see the psychopathic process, you have to train yourself to pay attention to both a person’s words and to remember that person’s deeds at the same time.
If you do this you will be able to see the disconnect between words and deeds and the psychopathic process. If you begin to see the psychopathic process, it is very important that you not share this observation with the psychopath. He or she will not benefit from your feedback and may even become violent. At the moment you see the process, you must discipline yourself and disconnect. If you have problems with self-discipline you likely need a therapist to help you disentangle from the psychopathic process.
Recovery and discovery are about learning to pay attention. Pay attention to yourself and pay attention to what other people say and do. Most people need help in order to learn the skill of paying attention. That is the kind of help a good therapist can give you.
In the next few weeks we’ll talk more about the psychopathic process. Please feel free to share your experience of being worked or the disconnect between words and deeds.
Fearless, Thank you too, sweetheart for your kind words. I dont know what Id do without Lovefraud, and the wonderful”old timers”{by that I dont mean old, but old in LF!!}Oxy, ErinB, hens,Silver,all of you!!
We are all making progress towards a spath-free life!!TOWANDA to us all!
And HUGS!!
Mama gem.XX
kalina,
What a beautiful name! I am married to a sociopath (but separated), realizing that the husband is one last fall. “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off” is a statement that I have read here – isn’t that the truth! Like OxDrover, you have had more than one sociopath to contend with over time. Sorry for this. This web site has been so helpful for me as I try to maneuver through this miserable life experience. It’s good to read what others have to say (coming from different vantage points), learning what needs to be learned. The trick is applying it all in one’s life.
“Recovery and discovery are about learning to pay attention. Pay attention to yourself and pay attention to what other people say and do.”–Dr. Leedom Good learning very helpful. i think to myself, “actions speak louder.” when i listened to the actions and muted the promises, i saw very clearly he did not care for me.
i feel like i have changed. i am no longer the sweet little nicey nice i have always been. i am okay with it its just a little sad. this weekend i started to feel sad about “the loss” of my husband (turned spath). i have been so tough…that’s what fear and anger do for me i guess. and i am experiencing some weakness. none that i would verbalize except here. i will NOT return to life in hell but i feel the loss again, a little more dull than when i first found out about the others. I feel like i just made progress through the deshaming stage and here i am back at stage one. fearless nonetheless!
Dear Fearless,
Sweetie, you are going to go through the ups and downs and roller coasters of grief. Google “Elizabeth Kubler-Ross” who has some great information on GRIEF and it will help you get a handle on what “stages” you are going through. I’m glad you are here and learning along with the rest of us! (*((hugs))))))
Hello. I’m new to this site and I stumbled upon it while trying to figure out what kind of relationship it is I’m in, as well as why I’m feeling the way I’m feelings, towards it, him and myself.
I’d like to tell my story. I hope I’m not in the wrong area for this…
It started 8 years ago. I met a man who was younger than myself by a few years (normally this is something I would have never done, since I was never really into men who were younger than myself). I feel in love. Absolutely. He was everything I wanted. We talked about so much, our families, our childhood, what we wanted in life. We grew very close. However, just like I would have any other time, I kept my friends very close. I had mainly 1 best friend at that time. Who I worked with and would see on occasion. Mostly on weekends, however once in a while she would stop by with a coffee for me and we would chat a bit. Sometimes he would be there (he was always over mine and my parents house), sometimes he wouldn’t. I was just turning 21, and I do know how bad this sounds but he was just turning 18. I did ask him when we first started going out, if he would be ok with the fact that I’d be going to bars soon. He said that was fine, expected even. Well shortly after I started going to bars, which had been maybe 3-4 months into the relationship, he came over with a chart he made from a spreadsheet one day. This chart he prepared for me, showed me how much I’d see my friend at that time, and how much I was seeing him. Mind you, I worked with my friend 8 hours a day in an office. Of course we saw each other a bit more than usual. However, he ended the conversation by telling me to choose, him or her. I told him I loved her, he took that the wrong way. To this day he tells me I was IN LOVE with her. No. She was a friend. I had known her since the age of 4. We were like sisters. Of course…I chose her. And of course, he remained talking to me. We were no longer in a relationship though.
Years went by.. We were always off and on, and most of the time it was because of me that the relationship failed, so he said. It was because I wasn’t trustworthy. It was because sometimes I’d sleep out at my friends house. I understood his reasons, but I knew myself, and that it was not in me to cheat. He didn’t like my friend because she was just that. And in time, I did give up that friendship because I didn’t like how she was cheating her way through relationships and being dishonest.
All throughout the years, he remained friends with his ex. His first love. For some reason he thought and still does think that this should not bother me. It does. I feel it would with anyone else who has any feelings to be honest. They’ve gone on vacations out of the country before, while him and I were and were not trying to work things out. He constantly tells me there is nothing but friendship there, however he’s also told me that when they went out of the country the first time, they did end up sleeping together. And for a while after they had returned. So what is so different now right?
About a year ago we started living together. I made the stupid mistake of telling him that it was ok that he just lost his job. I’d take care of him for now. Very wrong thing to do. He took total advantage of that. He had always had jobs, so I didn’t think he’d really just sit there with friends over, playing video games, while I was working, paying the bills, the food, etc. But that is indeed what happened. When I expressed my concern, his words were… “well I thought you said you’d take care of me”. I was….ashamed, surprised, baffled.. I didn’t know what to make of that. He’s always had at least one job, sometimes even 2 or 3.
He’d get a job, one was overnight (so he said), and he’d come home at all different times. “oh they said I didn’t have to work tonight”. This, I never understood. Was he really going somewhere else instead, cause I know I never saw a dime of that money that he said I would. During this time, we had a puppy together. He had taken him in from his sister because he said she was no longer caring for him. So I said ok, we can take the puppy, as well as his cat. (I already had a cat, and let me tell you, when his cat made my cat bleed, badly! he’d laugh. That hurt).
Months later, after finding out he lied to me about his whereabouts. I kicked him out. He told me he was going to a bar. I was wrong maybe for doing this, but I snooped into his phone and saw it was actually a strip club that he went to. Normally, I would not mind this, he’s gone to others in the past. What bothered me is that I had not seen a dime from him, and now see that he is giving strippers his money instead. I didn’t like that. I told him. He turned it around on me saying I was wrong for snooping. Yes, I was, and admitted that. But it seems he doesn’t see he was also wrong. He continued to tell me I’m crazy and need help. Once I realized I do need help, either way, if it’s me or if it’s him, he then told me not to go to therapy. He was afraid I’d fall out of love with him.
A couple months later, he put that dog down. He said he had no choice. He had no home for him and nowhere to bring him. He told me every shelter turned him down. I’m sorry, but I do believe that a shelter cannot actually turn a dog down like that if brought in. I don’t know for sure, but I know that putting a dog down who is not even a year old,…is wrong. It’s something I’d never do. I once had to put my cat down due to cancer, and you know I still feel guitly years later. 🙁 And that’s something that had to be done. Well after he had done what he had, he called me, crying, saying he can’t live with what he’s done. He was at a bridge he told me. I of course, scared, got into my car to try to find him. It turned into a game though. The closer I’d get, the further he’d drive. Finally I got mad and decided to stop trying to find him. I sat in a parking lot in my car. And let me tell you, what I saw next I could not believe. After all the crying, telling me he couldn’t live with himself… He passed me, waved and smiled. I was on the phone with his mother, scared still, but after seeing this I told her..Uhm, ya know what, nevermind, your son is fine. And I had to hang up.
So recently, yes I kept coming back. And I guess in a way you can say I’m still here. Recently though, I snooped again. Horrible, I know this, but I found he had been flirting with his ex this whole time. So…. Yes, I’ve made a bad decision, however if I didn’t see that, I’d still be here trying to work things out, changing myself only it’s really like killing yourself slowly to make yourself into someone you’re not, someone to suit their needs. If I didn’t find this out, I’d still be trying and he’d still be flirting. Of course, it’s all on me again. He said MEN FLIRT…it’s what they do. Girls don’t. That’s a crock. I don’t buy that for one second. When you’re trying to work on a relationship, you shouldn’t be flirting with your ex, the one person who is threatening how I feel about us. But….maybe he’s right. Am I the psycho one? Am I crazy? Do I need help? I sometimes feel this way.
I’ve been to therapists, they’ve actually told me that from what it sounds like, I’m dating a sociopath. I didn’t want to believe them. So I stopped going.
Maybe he is still just in love with his ex? Maybe it’s actually me? I’m not sure. Does anyone have any relativity to any of this?
Ya know I should also state, he has belittled me so many times. Telling me I’d never amount to anything, that I’ll never have as good a job as he does, that I’ll never be satisfied. No matter how good a guy is to me that I’ll just never be happy. The thing that’s starting to kill me…is there are Many men who had been very good to me and I can’t find it in myself to love them. I always end up leaving to come back here, where I ultimately feel unwanted, unloved and unappreciated, as well as unrespected. I don’t understand how we can let ourselves keep coming back just to feel the same.
AFoolinLove,
What you’re going through with this kid (he’s not a man) is not love. He sounds like a user, a major leech. There are better fish in the sea (I know you know this to be true). Please get away from this weasil and surround yourself with better people. From what you’ve said, the boy seems to be playing games with people in general, lying, being a very immature, self-centered person. The relationship that you have with him will never be satisfying – wait for a mature love to come along (with a mature man), refusing to settle for this kid. If you were my daughter, I would urge you to get him out of your life – he’s bad news.
Dear foolinlove, NO YOU’RE NOT CRAZY. NO IT’S NOT YOUR FAULT. I think you should take your therapists advise, and believe he is a sociopath. Stay away from him…total NC.
Take it one day at a time…admit to yourself that he won’t change and the relationship will never be good for you. Then focus your attention on you, healing and becoming stronger, wiser and better. Read as many articles in the archives, here, as you can. I know there’s one in there entitled something like,”You Didn’t Do It.” Then read about how they manipulate us with fear, obligation and guilt, how we get trauma bonded and why it’s so hard for us to kick ’em to the curb. You might even consider making an appointment with that therapist if you think she can help you get rid of him.
I’m glad you found LF and I hope you will keep coming back. There is a lot of growth to be had here, and a lot of wise and supportive people.
Thank you Kim Frederick and Bluejay for the kind words and your replies.
I was actually thinking about going back to that therapist. Especially the first one since she seemed to have catch on so quickly. Maybe that was because I had given her some emails we had exchanged back and forth. That also kind of scared me I guess. Cause I see how I do sometime stoop down to his level at times during arguments.
I sometimes just catch myself wondering why it is that I’m still here. Why do I keep fighting to keep this relationship alive. Why do I keep trying and changing myself for him. Why do I keep hoping and waiting thinking maybe he will try just as hard as I do. I guess I already have my answer…it’s just up to me to accept it now. And not return.
Thank you again. I will definitely be a part of these boards for a while. I love reading all of your experiences as well as the articles. It definitely helps to know that you are not suffering alone through all of this.
Dear a fool in love,
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Sugar you are no fool, you are just in love, but you are in love with a PSYCHOPATH/SOCIOPATH, yes, go back to taht therapist because they get it, some therapists dont.
Also stay here and read the archives, start with “what is a socioopath” and read read read, just the articles at first. Get Dr. Robert Hare’s classic book on “Without Conscience” avialable here on LF.
The next thing is to lgo NO CONTACT with this man. NO texts, no calls, no e mails and don’t open the door. CUT HIM OUT OF YOUR LIFE, he is a CANCER to your soul and as long as you let hiim stay there he will eat your soul!
It will hurt to do the “surgery” of cutting him out of your life, but if he stays he will devour your soul your life your self respect and your happiness for your life time! God bless you. I’m glad you found this wonderful support group! Great people here!!!