“The motivation (for lying) is particularly baffling in endogenous deceit when the psychopath may appear to have everything he wants yet continues quite predictably to commence the manipulative cycle.” So says Dr. Reid Meloy in The Psychopathic Mind, p121.
“I don’t think they even eat an ice cream cone just for pleasure, I think they do everything for the effect it has, or the image it presents. It isn’t about what is REAL it is about what they can appear to be. To them, I think, if they can get others to believe it, then it becomes “reality” as far as they are concerned.” So says Ox Drover in a comment on this blog.
There is complete agreement about one thing regarding sociopaths, that is lying defines them. While studies show that many people lie daily, the lying behavior of sociopaths differs in both degree and kind from “normal” lying. Sociopaths do not just misrepresent the truth in small ways to spare someone’s feelings, avoid an argument or avoid trouble. Sociopaths misrepresent themselves and this misrepresentation extends to everyone they know. (For more advanced readers, there may not be much of a self there to misrepresent.)
You don’t need a checklist
So today I can tell you with confidence that you don’t need a checklist of symptoms or a forensic expert. If you are astounded by another person’s capacity to lie and misrepresent reality you can be sure you have encountered a sociopath.
I said a few weeks ago that I think Meloy’s book The psychopathic Mind is a great contribution to humanity. In this book, Meloy puts forth the idea that we can identify “psychopaths” by observing what he calls “the psychopathic process.” I searched the book for a precise definition of “the psychopathic process” and couldn’t find one but he implies that psychopathy is defined by the way a person interacts with others and with him/herself. He also says that it is possible to identify a “psychopath” by the way that person makes you feel. If you can look within yourself and monitor your own reactions you can learn to tell when you are face to face with “the psychopathic process.”
It doesn’t “work” on me anymore!
I have learned what it feels like to be “worked” and because I know what that feels like, “it” doesn’t work on me anymore. Sociopaths do not just lie, they work people. Their relationships are an occupation for them and it’s not just a job, it’s an adventure. They will even work when there is no apparent reason to. Why do they do this? They do this because there is nothing else they can do. They have little or no capacity to look within and find an inner compass of values and pleasures. As Ox Drover points out, the only real pleasure they have is their “work.”
Dr. Meloy gives a great example of a psychopath “at work” on page 138 when he discusses a professional who was “worked” by a psychopath. Knowing that he was going to be assigned a certain probation officer, the psychopath asked others who knew her about her interests. On discovering that the woman was interested in metaphysics and the writings of Alfred North Whitehead, the psychopath went and read the writings. He then gained the respect and admiration of the P.O. because he discussed these writings as if he too had a genuine interest in them that predated his knowledge of her.
Meloy says, “He does not just play the role, observing the limits of his character, but lives the part.” People are taken in by the psychopath’s work because in the moment the psychopath really thinks and feels the part. His part is real and yet also a deception.
You know you are being worked when the things you love/enjoy are mirrored in this way. You can tell the difference between this mirroring and real sharing by the extent to which the other person tries to build your enthusiasm and point to the apparent “twin-ship” you share. This mirroring and twin-ship can occur with big things as in the metaphysics example and it can occur with little things as in the ice cream example.
Now if you know what I am talking about, you have been worked; you are likely far along in the recovery process because you know what this feels like. If you have only a vague notion of what I am saying, Dr. Meloy has other words of wisdom for you.
In the psychopathic process there is a “complete disconnect between words and actions.” If you notice that a person’s actions point south and their words point north, you are dealing with a sociopath. To be concrete, if the person says they love you and either doesn’t spend much time with you, or repeatedly harms and stresses you, you are in the middle of a psychopathic process. But remember since the person “lives the part” at the moment he/she is with you and says “I love you” there is some vague reality to the statement (especially if the person has the disorder in a lesser form, see last week). To see the psychopathic process, you have to train yourself to pay attention to both a person’s words and to remember that person’s deeds at the same time.
If you do this you will be able to see the disconnect between words and deeds and the psychopathic process. If you begin to see the psychopathic process, it is very important that you not share this observation with the psychopath. He or she will not benefit from your feedback and may even become violent. At the moment you see the process, you must discipline yourself and disconnect. If you have problems with self-discipline you likely need a therapist to help you disentangle from the psychopathic process.
Recovery and discovery are about learning to pay attention. Pay attention to yourself and pay attention to what other people say and do. Most people need help in order to learn the skill of paying attention. That is the kind of help a good therapist can give you.
In the next few weeks we’ll talk more about the psychopathic process. Please feel free to share your experience of being worked or the disconnect between words and deeds.
The no contact rule is definitely the hardest. He will be going on vacation by the end of this week. Before he goes (most likely tonight) I will be getting a book back from him that I bought for both of us. It was to work on our relationship.
I was supposed to go on this trip with him. I backed out months ago when he told me weren’t working out. Of course he got totally pissed off that I’m not going, but it’s been this way for months. And he could have postponed. All he cares about is losing the money. I lost money from it also. I lost just about $900 for the plane ride (to Europe). I would have loved to go on that trip, but at the time I told him; we have no idea where we will be in months from now. If you decide to enter into a new relationship, that’s not right to the new person you are with, and the same for myself. (I guess he thinks it’s fine since the first time he went away like this, was with his ex, while we were on an OFF period, yet again). I won’t do that to someone though. I respect others and myself too much to hurt someone in that way. Granted, neither one of us are in a new relationship now, I still don’t think it’s the best idea to go so far away from home when you aren’t really getting along.
And the fact that I found him to be flirting with that same ex now… that crushes my heart. But after I get my book back, I will remain strong. I have to. For me.
I just can’t help but feel that when we are said and done with, he may fall for someone else, and they may actually work. I hate feeling as though this one guy is the only one I’ve ever loved this much. But I will love again.
Thank you all again so much!!
Dear Foolinlove,
Unless that book is so expensive that you can’t replace it. FORGET IT! Going to see him to get it back is going to open a dialog that can only be painful–order a used copy of the book off line you can usually get them for less than half price even with shipping or just blow the book off all together.
From where I am now, I wouldn’t go see one of my Ps for a GOLD BAR that weighed 10 pounds. Either mail it to me, or dump it I don’t care, but I don’t want to see your face.
You are not being “unreasonable” by not wanting to see him.
YOu are not being unreasonable for not wanting to go on vacation with someone you think is not caring of you whether they are a psychopath or not doesn’t matter. This person is TOXIC to you.
Of course he will flirt with her, his ex, and the girl next to him on the plane and even if he were married to you, he would flirt and CHEAT! Dump the rube! You deserve better!
Afoolin:
You don’t need contact to get a book back.
That’s what front doorsteps are for….or mail, or friends, or bookstores!
Honesty with ourselves is important to healing. Don’t make excuses why you have to see him one more time.
You’ve done well……continue down the ‘well’ path…..for your own sanity.
He’ll always be the same ass he was to you…..he’ll never have a good relationship….only a facade for a bit…..becuase he’ll never have a good relationship with HIMSELF!
That’s Key!
Stay NC….as hard as it is…..and when you get past this book hurdle…..look at how empowered you were and build on that.
I am so glad I found this site. I have been seeing a man that fits the profile as an N/P almost to a tee but with a few different traits that I am hoping someone can shed some light on.
First of all, I would like to say that I am so impressed with the support of the regulars on this site, You guys are AMAZING! I feel like I am in very good company.
The man I have been seeing is 20 years older than me. He was a teacher in my high school some 37 years ago and all of us girls had huge crushes on him. He was stunningly gorgeous (I am seeing a pattern in all the posts I have been reading). I have encountered him now all these years later at the gym where I work out regularly (a senior fitness center where in this town you can join at 50). The only reason I would even look his way is he is still a very handsome man for his age and in great physical shape and I still see him as the 35 year old foxy teacher in some ways. That persona has remained. It has taken about 8 months for us to finally get together. What I thought was an older man taking his time to get to know a much younger woman turns out to be withholding! Wow.
Though he shows classic examples of everything I am reading here, one thing has me very stumped. Instead of lovebombing me, he is doing the very opposite. Although he has been very interested in me all these months, he tends to be indifferent when we do spend time together. No compliments, no thank you’s when I cook for him, very few phone calls, and no real “dates”. No physical affection outside of sex. Most of our time together is spent at the gym. He will mention going out as an afterthought like “I was going to ask you to breakfast yesterday but the grandkids needed watching”. I know he is single because I have been to his house more than once and I have called him at home. He claims to be a loner and doesn’t really like to talk on the phone. He does not return calls and just blows people off. He tells the men at the gym that I am “his girl” and can be quite jealous of their attention. He is a Leo which in my opinion can compound the problem because he has a huge ego and needs constant ego stroking even though he gives nothing back in return (sorry if any of you are Leo’s).
I am stunned at how your posts seem to be describing him. When we finally were intimate it was like a switch went off when it was over. He was up and dressed and was showing me the door. It took months for this man to get me to his bedroom and then he is done. Weird. If it wasn’t for the Viagra, it would have been a dud, but he was amazing for a man his age. And he did not want to talk at all while in the moment. It was like he was by himself. I felt oddly not present. He lies a lot and says he is not on Viagra but that is BS.
At first I thought that maybe he was indifferent because of the age gap and did not want to come across as an old fool given the age difference. He plays mind games like a man half his age. It’s as if he hasn’t gotten the memo that he’s no longer the young stud he was and he can’t pull this crap on a younger woman like myself. Or can he?
Can anyone shed light on the indifference? I can understand it later in the game but this is early in the “relationship”. And there are other women in his life. HE says they are just friends and not intimate with any of them. BS!. It all adds up. I have been very confused. I am thankful that I am very healthy emotionally or I would have gotten much deeper in. I have been wanting a partner and I was waiting for that chemistry and I was surprised at the level of sparks between us. I never thought I would find that with a man so much older than me but it is like he is very sexually charged-like a cell phone. It is perplexing because I have turned down men closer to my age to be with him and he knows it. He parades around like a peacock with me as his “girl” but gives me absolutely nothing of what I want or need. I have initiated NC recently and I will certainly stay away from that one. Any clues? I am still confused about the hold he had on me.
Just last week I began to feel like something is not right. I even told a friend of mine it is like he has no feelings or emotions. I really don’t know how I ended up here just that I think God led me here so that I would see what I am in. I have recently left him a message that I need to take a break from our relationship and that I would not be in the gym at our regular time. He of course did not pick up but it went to VM. He did try to call a couple of times about 30 minutes later but did not leave a VM which is very typical of him. He acts like I don’t exist and initiates time together only when it is convenient for him. I hate to admit that at 52 I am the dreaded back burner girl with a man old enough to be my dad! Yikes how in the hell did I get to this place? HELP!!
Dear adamsrib,
{And by the by this is a nother lie! We women are not made out of a rib of Adam we are separately created beings! I used to belong to a fundamentalist Prayer group, and the Pastor told us that Eve was created from Adams rib! BULLDUST!! Another phoney myth from the control freaks who misinterpret religion for their own ends!
This guy is a spath and a control freak, without any doubt. As to why he behaves this way, this is what spaths do!As Oxy said once, its like asking a rattlesnake not to bite you, this is what rattlesnakes do! If you pet it and love it, it aint gonna grow fur and love you back likea Puppy!
They behave this way becaus they have 1} no conscience,2 no empathy,3} no remorse,lie all the time,they can fake love, but they cant feel it. With sex, you are no more than a vessel for his precious sperm, and how honoured you should be to contain it!{NOT!!} he might as well go wank.KICK HIM TO THE KERB!!! You deserve so much better!Love Mama Gem.
Dear ADAMSRIB,
He’s playing hard to get. Since no one has “got” him, then I guess all the women who tried have lost. Ask yourself “do you want to turn yourself into a psycho pretzel trying to win this sour grape?”
My spath was indifferent. He just didn’t show it until the end. Diconnection is normal for your guy. Don’t read anything more into it than that. Believe me, it there was more, you wouldn’t have to wonder.
Count yourself lucky and to get satisfaction, NO CONTACT. And mean it or as a wise person once said, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, and OX DROVER has a skillet for ya.
Adamsrib;
Welcome welcome, keep on reading and learning…..you are the key the your answers.
you ask “he’s no longer the young stud he was and he can’t pull this crap on a younger woman like myself. Or can he?”
Uh….yeah he can…..IF YOU LET HIM!
Don’t beat yourself up…… let him go, create distance and keep the NC.
This is where the indifference may work in your favor…..he won’t be knocking down YOUR door.
Hope for that ending!
Again….welcome to LF. Glad to have you hear……
XXOO
EB
Dear Adam’s rib,
Yea, “hard to get” LOL Yea, kick this creep to the curb, he’s playing the oldest game in the book! It’s just version 1.b of the “love bomb” called “Look ain’t I wonderful!”
My bet is that he was bonking some of your girlfriends back in high school, or shortly after they graduated.
Get one of your good looking male friends (even the borrowed husband of one of your GFs is okay, as it’s a short term “relationship”) to come into the Gym with you one day and pour over the guy and make a big scene in front of the old gezer! Show him who has CONTROL! LOL
Make some kind of conversation about how you guys are going out to some place that the OLD folks won’t be there, make sure the old coot hears your conversation!
See, ErinB, I can be “naughty” too! LOL
“Though he shows classic examples of everything I am reading here, one thing has me very stumped. Instead of lovebombing me, he is doing the very opposite. ”
Here’s my guess. He doesn’t need you right now. He has someone else as his prime target. When they get used up, or start putting things together he will need someone new – then he’ll perk up and start love bombing you.
I’d bet money on it.
Dear precambrian,
I am wondering how you chose your screen name! It is an unusual one here. If you don’t mind sharing!
Some names are alike “likes cats” (that’s not a real example) Or Northern man (that’s not a real one either) some people use a bird or a dogs name or a “Live to hope” or “I love my kids” something to tell about themselves or their hopes or their spirits, and yours was so different that It piqued my interest.
My name”Ox Drover” is that I am one of 5 women in the southern US that I know of who have trained and driven cattle (oxen) to work, the few others are men. Up north it isn’t unusual jfor girls to train and show working steers (oxen) in 4-H groups at fairs in Maine or New England. I trained them to work and pull wagons for our living history group here in Arkansas as it was something no one else was doing. Kids could see horses ;pull wagons any where but not oxen. But trained cattle are not covered by liability waivers as horses, mules and donkeys are, so I started using my donkeys which are covered. So if you get up under my donkey and it kicks you, not my responsibility, you should have had enough sense to get out of the way. Not so with the oxen.