“The motivation (for lying) is particularly baffling in endogenous deceit when the psychopath may appear to have everything he wants yet continues quite predictably to commence the manipulative cycle.” So says Dr. Reid Meloy in The Psychopathic Mind, p121.
“I don’t think they even eat an ice cream cone just for pleasure, I think they do everything for the effect it has, or the image it presents. It isn’t about what is REAL it is about what they can appear to be. To them, I think, if they can get others to believe it, then it becomes “reality” as far as they are concerned.” So says Ox Drover in a comment on this blog.
There is complete agreement about one thing regarding sociopaths, that is lying defines them. While studies show that many people lie daily, the lying behavior of sociopaths differs in both degree and kind from “normal” lying. Sociopaths do not just misrepresent the truth in small ways to spare someone’s feelings, avoid an argument or avoid trouble. Sociopaths misrepresent themselves and this misrepresentation extends to everyone they know. (For more advanced readers, there may not be much of a self there to misrepresent.)
You don’t need a checklist
So today I can tell you with confidence that you don’t need a checklist of symptoms or a forensic expert. If you are astounded by another person’s capacity to lie and misrepresent reality you can be sure you have encountered a sociopath.
I said a few weeks ago that I think Meloy’s book The psychopathic Mind is a great contribution to humanity. In this book, Meloy puts forth the idea that we can identify “psychopaths” by observing what he calls “the psychopathic process.” I searched the book for a precise definition of “the psychopathic process” and couldn’t find one but he implies that psychopathy is defined by the way a person interacts with others and with him/herself. He also says that it is possible to identify a “psychopath” by the way that person makes you feel. If you can look within yourself and monitor your own reactions you can learn to tell when you are face to face with “the psychopathic process.”
It doesn’t “work” on me anymore!
I have learned what it feels like to be “worked” and because I know what that feels like, “it” doesn’t work on me anymore. Sociopaths do not just lie, they work people. Their relationships are an occupation for them and it’s not just a job, it’s an adventure. They will even work when there is no apparent reason to. Why do they do this? They do this because there is nothing else they can do. They have little or no capacity to look within and find an inner compass of values and pleasures. As Ox Drover points out, the only real pleasure they have is their “work.”
Dr. Meloy gives a great example of a psychopath “at work” on page 138 when he discusses a professional who was “worked” by a psychopath. Knowing that he was going to be assigned a certain probation officer, the psychopath asked others who knew her about her interests. On discovering that the woman was interested in metaphysics and the writings of Alfred North Whitehead, the psychopath went and read the writings. He then gained the respect and admiration of the P.O. because he discussed these writings as if he too had a genuine interest in them that predated his knowledge of her.
Meloy says, “He does not just play the role, observing the limits of his character, but lives the part.” People are taken in by the psychopath’s work because in the moment the psychopath really thinks and feels the part. His part is real and yet also a deception.
You know you are being worked when the things you love/enjoy are mirrored in this way. You can tell the difference between this mirroring and real sharing by the extent to which the other person tries to build your enthusiasm and point to the apparent “twin-ship” you share. This mirroring and twin-ship can occur with big things as in the metaphysics example and it can occur with little things as in the ice cream example.
Now if you know what I am talking about, you have been worked; you are likely far along in the recovery process because you know what this feels like. If you have only a vague notion of what I am saying, Dr. Meloy has other words of wisdom for you.
In the psychopathic process there is a “complete disconnect between words and actions.” If you notice that a person’s actions point south and their words point north, you are dealing with a sociopath. To be concrete, if the person says they love you and either doesn’t spend much time with you, or repeatedly harms and stresses you, you are in the middle of a psychopathic process. But remember since the person “lives the part” at the moment he/she is with you and says “I love you” there is some vague reality to the statement (especially if the person has the disorder in a lesser form, see last week). To see the psychopathic process, you have to train yourself to pay attention to both a person’s words and to remember that person’s deeds at the same time.
If you do this you will be able to see the disconnect between words and deeds and the psychopathic process. If you begin to see the psychopathic process, it is very important that you not share this observation with the psychopath. He or she will not benefit from your feedback and may even become violent. At the moment you see the process, you must discipline yourself and disconnect. If you have problems with self-discipline you likely need a therapist to help you disentangle from the psychopathic process.
Recovery and discovery are about learning to pay attention. Pay attention to yourself and pay attention to what other people say and do. Most people need help in order to learn the skill of paying attention. That is the kind of help a good therapist can give you.
In the next few weeks we’ll talk more about the psychopathic process. Please feel free to share your experience of being worked or the disconnect between words and deeds.
I hear ya girl. Why can’t we be happy with all the things you just mentioned? Family, our homes, solitude and yes peace of mind goes a long way. I am most happy when I am not dealing with a sh$t head guy. Hate to sound bitter but… When I see my married friends, couples at the mall, or out riding bikes, I wonder “why not me”? I only need to talk with them for awhile (like my BFF ) and know that being with a partner is not all that. We wish we were coupled and they wish they were single. Seems we are never happy with our lot in life. We have so much to offer. It helps to have a forum.
I am amazed at how many N/P’s there are out there. There must be something in our society creating this problem. We see it in our politicians, our sports figures, our teachers, everywhere! It can get to be a real bummer. I try to stay strong in my spirituality(not religion) and stay connected to the Source, the Universe, the Powers that be etc. I find my comfort in meditation. Funny, I thought my latest guy (the old fart S) was spiritual until I realized he is a self made man in love with his own creator. 🙂
Hello friends……it’s been awhile……..I thought maybe posting on here was making me think about all this a little too much……do you all ever feel that way……like you just have to escape it sometimes? Some things never change however and sociopathic daughters are one of them…..had a little get together for the husband’s birthday yesterday and the Spath step daughter comes in sporting her HUGE breast implants (has had them done twice, to get bigger) wearing a tissue thin, skin tight top….I’m telling you, you could almost see her nipples through this thing…..I don’t judge anyone who wants to do that surgery……but it is so obvious that this little spath bought them as “tools” of her evil trade……I hate to go so “dark” here, but please help me…..I know I am not stupid……but I know in my heart of hearts that she has a “thing” for her Daddy…….he’s the one man she has not been able to “bag”and I think it drives her crazy……I think that is one reason she has always hated me so deeply, she sees me as an obstacle…..but she hugs him way too tight, way too long and gazes loningly into his eyes to the point I see him bobbin and weavin to stay out of her way…..boy was he squirming yesterday….!! I have NO one to talk to about this…if I were to ever mention my thougts about this to anyone I would be crucified to say the least……it is just such a bad place for my thoughts to go….I hate it, but having 30 years dealing with these girls has sharpened my senses so well, I just KNOW! She bought her Daddy a birthday card that was so sickenly sweet, I thought it was gonna stick to the table! She MADE him read it aloud……talk about squirming! You could tell he did not want to……she insisted….the whole time I could feel her looking at me for a reaction……I gave none! It went on and on and on about what a loving wonderful father he had always been, how he had made her who she was today (not a compliment) and she owed him everything…..how he supported her dreams and held her close when she needed it, and was able to let her go when she needed to grow up……blah……blah…….blah…….what makes me so stinkin’ mad is that I was the one that he dumped the crazy ass sociopath on to raise and he gets all the credit and I get NOTHING…….I am venting here big time……..I wish I never had to see her face again……..but I smile and act like I enjoyed their visit…..I think it is safer that way…..if I offered up one tiny crack in my armour she would charge me like the bull she is! For now I refuse to wear red!!! Any thoughts friends? Is this a common thing for female spaths to want to conquer their own fathers? He is in his late 50’s but still very attractive…..is it just a power thing? She looks at him sometimes like she could just devour him. It literally turns my stomach….now,that is just the one daughter …I have the bio daughter that is more dangerous even than this one……I’ve come to know there are different types of sociopaths……some are sneakier than others…..I won’t go into her latest antics tonight …one nut at a time…..Love you guys!!!
Dear Cream puff,
Welcome back sweetie! I know sometimes it may seem like you obsess about it all but breaks are good and thinking about it and working on it is also good. So make some room in your life for both of those things.
To answer your question Cream Puff–yes, control, conquest, sex, lust, power, and your “intuition” is probably NOT off. The kind of person (male or female) who uses INAPPROPRIATE sexual “attraction” and behavior is usually more obvious than that, BUT if you were to “call them out” on it, of course they would have “plausible deniability” on it.
As long as you are around her, or married to her father, nothing is going to change, just more drama, Acts 1-10,000.
Venting is okay because actually there is nothing you can do about this situation except Leave or live with it. Your husband isn’t going to do anything, she isn’t going to change, so there you are. I wish I could tell you that there was “hope” but you would know I would be lying to you and you’d boink me with my OWN SKILLET! LOL
Hang around though, Creampuff, you can vent here all you want to! and we’ll all say AMEN!!!! ((((hugs))))
I was talking with a guy today with a classic sociopath story. In this case, he was left cold, owed money and HIV+. His sociopath BF is wanted in Canada for fraud and had fraudulent activities in England as well. The guy I was talking to said he new the sociopath for a year and everyone thought he was smart and successful.
I feel lucky in retrospected, being out only $200 or so and no HIV.
Every time I re-read articles here, I am amazed that even in my very short relationship, there were so many subtle sociopathic traits.
I want to reiterate that in some cases, the sociopath is not a business fraud. While my x-spath was HIV+, he did not expose me to HIV. He was however, an emotional fraud, a liar and a manipulator, all while maintaining his charming and unassuming exterior.
“His part is real and yet also a deception.”
Creampuff:
It IS best you just stick to the perifrail…….you know…..it’s up to others to figure it out.
You can set your boundaries on what you WILL or WILLNOT do or participate in…..and just stay firm.
Her pops ain’t gonna ‘ax’ her out of his life….until she takes it too far….(for him)…not by your judgement.
So….if YOU maintain healthy boundaries for YOURSELF….no one can fault you for that.
It IS creepy flaunting new boobs to ANY family members.
I wouldn’t discuss this with hubby either…..it’s an observations of yours……and he would NEVER admit to it going on, because it’s societally wrong…..so you’d be viewed as jelouse and crazy……it’d backfire on you.
Keep quiet and speak loudly here with us……
Don’t be a stranger…..and don’t hold it in. We’re here darlen!
BBE:
Are you doubting your experience? DON”T…it was YOURS….you don’t need to qualify or justify the pain and con you endured…..
We all have a story….none greater than the other.
ErinBrock;
Thanks. Actually, I like to be the constant reminder to myself that sociopaths need not be violent, criminal or otherwise maliciously overt. Some are “merely” emotional/relationship abusers, so much so that even a short-term interaction at the wrong time in a person’s life can be disastrous for the victim.
But they all are liars and manipulators.
When I re-read these articles or see a new posting, I always shake my head because I read a behavior, trait or action I observed.
“He does not just play the role, observing the limits of his character, but lives the part.”
My x-spath was playing the “innocent” role. I have mentioned how he walked out of a restaurant on me, insulted that I merely asked him back to my apartment and avoided any sexual discussion or even innuendo, while simultaneously maintaining a far more overt persona online: “hobbies include boys, a beer or two, and some fooling around…” His words.
But I saw something here today that just strikes me how far the manipulation and mirroring goes, which is at the root of why they are so destructive.
“You know you are being worked when the things you love/enjoy are mirrored in this way. You can tell the difference between this mirroring and real sharing by the extent to which the other person tries to build your enthusiasm and point to the apparent “twin-ship” you share. This mirroring and twin-ship can occur with big things as in the metaphysics example and it can occur with little things as in the ice cream example.”
The “big-thing” mirroring was my desire for a real, honest, mature relationship. But it is the little thing that is a better example of how stunningly accurate is the above description. The little thing was potato chips. He went as far as to bring me a bag of potato chips from England.
I was subject to so much subtle emotional abuse, of course in my mind due to something I did, I cannot imagine what it would be like in a long-term relationship with him. More important, I could imaging tolerating such behavior for long, now that I am healthy.
To that, from my recollection and his various online trails, he has not been in any realistic relationship in a long time. This makes me wonder if there exists a type of sociopath whose MO is purely very short-term relationships measured in months, due to either A) their own tendency or B) their utter coldness not tolerated by others?
BBE,
Him becoming “righteously upset” because of something you said or did is A LIE IN ITSELF—you seem to be taking HIS WORD for why he became upset with you—DUH! You KNOW he is a LIAR and “the truth is not in him” so WHY for goodness sake are you accepting what he SAID was the reason he got upset as TRUTH?
See, we “fall into” accepting that ANYTHING they said is truth! LOL Actually I have done the SAME THING MYSELF BBE.
See what a mind twist they do to us?
Here you are months later trying to figure out WHAT YOU DID to make him so UNREASONABLY UPSET—the truth is BBE, NOTHING!~!!!! HE WAS LYING ABOUT THAT JUST LIKE HE LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE.
You keep talking about how the two of you never had sex, so he didn’t expose you to HIV—GREAT! I’m glad for YOU. But it was NOT because he was LOOKING OUT FOR YOU, for some reason he had some “game” going where he wanted you to persue him so he was PLAYIING COY and “righteous” but it was NEVER ABOUT YOU. IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT HIM. He had no intention of sticking around anyway, it was just some scenario he wanted to “play” and for some reason you didn’t know the lines to your part in the play, but if you had “known your lines” he would have been quite happy to have sex, leave you with HIV and not look back.
BBE there was NOTHING REAL ABOUT HIM…NOTHING! HE WAS AND IS THE LIE. Just be GLAD you were nothing but a piece of meat and a game of pretend to him. I’m just glad you flunked the audition for that play! In fact, I’m glad we all flunked it sooner or later.. In your case though, SOONER is much much better!
This talk of HIV has me wanting to clarify something I said in one of my posts:
“I am suspecting that he may be gay and I am the beard. Men in certain ethnic groups of certain generations do not come out. They cover up. Rosa: add this to your scenarios. If that’s the case then ewww I have slept with him. 🙁 ”
I want to clarify that I was referring to the idea of getting AIDs. I apologize if I am ignorant. I happen to think if I if a heterosexual woman sleeps with a closet homosexual she could get HIV and yeah that creeps me out. I am ashamed to admit that it was not always properly protected. I was too trusting. It was after the fact that I began to think that maybe he just doesn’t like women. Now, I am more inclined to think he is N/P. I will probably get my self tested though. How stupid can we be???
BBE you are so right when you say this:
“I like to be the constant reminder to myself that sociopaths need not be violent, criminal or otherwise maliciously overt. Some are “merely” emotional/relationship abusers, so much so that even a short-term interaction at the wrong time in a person’s life can be disastrous for the victim.”
So very right on. That is a perfect label for these guys. He is an emotional/relationship abuser. No wonder he is still alone after all these years. There is something to that saying “all the good ones are gone”. Thank you.
It will be a week Thursday of NC and I am feeling a “loss” of this person. I am mad at myself that I miss him. I went to the gym yesterday in the morning and felt sad that he was not there. I have to remember that I CHOSE to change the time to avoid him. I need to meditate more so I don’t cave.
Hope I didn’t offend anyone here. 🙁
BBE:
p.s.
“To that, from my recollection and his various online trails, he has not been in any realistic relationship in a long time. This makes me wonder if there exists a type of sociopath whose MO is purely very short-term relationships measured in months, due to either A) their own tendency or B) their utter coldness not tolerated by others?”
I have had THE EXACT SAME THOUGHT!! The shelf life of these people is not very long because really, who could tolerate the “utter coldness”? Very well put! I do believe that if this guy I know has a long-term somewhere, it is someone with a lot of money. That I would believe without a doubt.