“How did he really feel?” and “What did he want from me?” are two questions that often haunt victims of sociopaths. The reason we are haunted by these questions varies but often stems from the habit of over-focusing on the sociopath instead of ourselves. That being said, victims also have a healthy ”˜need to know’ that can help with recovery and healing.
I struggled with these questions in my own healing. I remain baffled by my observations of enjoyment of affection on the part of sociopaths. Early on, I told my own therapist that I had come to the conclusion that sociopaths exploit those close to them to the point of death, then, cry at the funeral. At the moment the tears are shed, I believe they do represent a grief of sorts. The feelings of loss experienced by sociopaths are however, short lived. Victims also have to beware because, although sociopaths are said to be incapable of feelings for those in their lives, they do become obsessed with them. Psychologists have not yet explained this obsession. If they don’t attach, why are they obsessed? Those who have read my other entries know that I believe that sociopaths do attach. It is what they do with attachments that is disordered.
How did he really feel?
In response to the picture of a sociopath crying at his victim’s funeral, my therapist said, “He feels what he tells himself he feels.” To help you understand what my therapist meant, I will explain what is known about how people usually experience feelings.
There are two components to feelings. The first is a physical sensation. When we experience a feeling we feel something in our bodies in relationship to that feeling. Think about loving someone close to you and sense how your body feels. Is it warmth in your heart? That is usually what people report.
There is much evidence that these physical sensations are disordered in sociopaths. Sociopaths do not generally experience the physical and hormonal changes that go along with feeling emotion. If they do experience them, it is to a lesser degree. Physical responses are blunted.
The second component of feelings is called attribution. Attribution is a cognitive process. When I feel that warmth in my heart as I see my children, I attribute the sensation to my love for them. Thus the physical sensation alone does not make emotion. Emotion is physical sensations and our interpretations of these sensations. There is also evidence that the parts of the brain responsible for attribution do not function properly in sociopaths.
There is one emotion that many sociopaths experience in a not so disordered way. This emotion is anger. Sociopaths do have blunted physical responses to anger. Despite this blunted responsiveness, they seem aware of angry feelings and make correct attributions about what makes them angry. Again, science has not even addressed, much less explained this observation.
Since the physical sensations and attributions that allow for the experience of emotion are disordered in sociopaths, their inner world is very different. They are left to make sense of themselves and others without the tools most of us use. Other parts of the brain fill in the missing processes. The person who is credited with first describing sociopathy in depth is Hervey Cleckley. He proposed that sociopaths are at least of average if not above average verbal intelligence. This makes sense because they have to use their verbal intelligence to make up for their lack of emotions. They do indeed feel what they tell themselves they feel. Scientists say they mimic other people’s emotions, yet again there is no real proof of this.
What did he want from me?
This question is easy to answer intellectually, but very hard for victims to accept emotionally. There are three pleasures we get from our love relationships. The first is pleasure in affection. The second is sexual pleasure. The third is pleasure associated with dominance and control. Sociopaths experience sex and dominance as enormously more pleasurable than affection. Therefore, they are in relationships to get sex and power, pure and simple.
If you love deeply and feel affection for others, you cannot fathom the inner world of an emotionally disordered person whose primary pleasures are sex and power. To understand another’s world you have to imagine yourself experiencing what the other experiences. You can’t do this with a sociopath.
Louise Gallagher said in her post The six steps of healing from a psychopath that the first step is acceptance. We have to accept that we can only know in part how sociopaths really feel and what they want from us. We can understand intellectually, but never emotionally.
skylar:
EEEW gads!!! I hope I never run into your brother!
Pretty sad though all the way around. It’s unbelievable that people actually live like that. It’s obvious he doesn’t want intimacy of any kind. And I can see why with parents like that.
Kim,
lol. YOU crack me up.
He was actually very good looking, full head of hair, with a magnetic aura about him. Part of it is the predatory stare. My spath didn’t have it, (he hid it) but my brother definitely has it.
I know I said, “she keeps him in the basement.” That’s the irony. He thinks that he is being a parasite on them. He thinks that he is the one benefiting. In fact, it gives them a perverse satisfaction that he is unaware of. I would tell him, but I fear that he would kill them if he became aware of it.
My parents are some of the most insightful and aware people I’ve ever met. They see right through others. They can peg a spath. They were raised in poverty with only a gradeschool education, so this comes from having observed it first hand.
They know how to control and manipulate and their masks are perfect. The key, is to never overstep the bounds. They blend right in. Even better than my exspath.
OK Louise, your path sounds – ew…come on Louise! I don’t get it…you sound so classy and obviously loving and smart. Every time you describe him, I see this dude, http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://content6.flixster.com/photo/12/88/37/12883756_ori.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/1024892-david_frost/&h=723&w=800&sz=62&tbnid=cQ46LSkLUf0y1M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=100&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddavid%2Bfrost%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=david+frost&docid=bztbXK8ONG6uBM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i4SWT6qzL-WY6QHy6qSSDg&ved=0CEUQ9QEwAg&dur=0
You may be too young to recall David Frost, but he was pretty popular in his day, oh and British. I mean now you’re telling me Bboy is little and yappy. ewwwwwwwwwwww. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to beat on him (I mean he’s such a stand-up guy and all, why would I?). I am very glad that you made it difficult for him – GOOD ON YA! You just remind me of myself, well basically all my live, running after one inappropriate, inadequate guy after another. I know bb must have had some redeeming features, (kissing?) but overall he sounds so pathetic, I have to say you liked him because he was safe…then you got involved emotionally cause he was safe, then oooops, he’s nuts and not in the neurotic sense of counting all his sox 78 times before you had sex. No this guy was the rill dill a sociopathic demon. I am sorry, Louise. I really am….but he just sounds like a demented, hyper cartoon. Does he have bad teeth, too?? And chain smoke????? mmm mmm mmmm. Betcha he’s still in your head because it’s safer than allowing someone in, which for some reason scares the heck out of you. Please don’t let it ruin your life…so thankful you are going to a good shrink.
Skylar, Libra, wow……the mother thing again. Methinks Dr Freud was not on the wrong path at all. It appears these paths have that common thread.
I think these guys want to both f and kill their mothers depending on both nature and nurture. Their inherent nature + whatever their mothers did to them I firmly believe had a huge impact on their sociopathic outcome. Not saying other auth figures or factors in general don’t come into play but this mother thing is so prevalent with this demented jerks. They love them to death so to speak.
Libra, your discussion with path’s mother, mmm mmm mm. Bad news. She badmouths him but wants him all for herself. Takes pleasure in letting you know he has a GF, how bad he was for you, etc. Of course. She wants him for herself. It’s so sick. Please please see this. He will never ever let go of her, she won’t let him. GF? Please…just to keep up appearances. Mom is the only GF he will ever have now and after she kicks, should she go first.
Louise, your catch is a good example of how f’d up she is.
Skylar, you really nailed it even before Libra’s post:
“They are called anti-social because they never developed a social bond to humanity. They didn’t bond with their *mothers* and now they can’t bond with anyone. They feel left out of the human race..”
Wow.
I actually told Godzilla that he was attracted to me because I represented his mother (I am 12 yrs older than him). Because he was so guarded, I had to pull info out of him but I did get that his two older sisters drove him nuts. My take is that he found me, an older woman who still looks pretty good his perfect, perfect target to use and abuse instead of taking it out on his sisters and mother. His response to me was that if I did remind him of his mother, that would be a huge compliment because she was a “wonderful” woman. Maybe so, and I’m sure she and the older sisters helped turn him into Prince Godzilla, the Wonder-Psycho.
Louise, yeah, mine also said he never gets mad. Well I don’t believe that for a second, but you’re right, since they don’t feel anything, hurts and slights mean nothing to them. They don’t get it. And are ever so forgiving!! Darlings all of them.
This sense of loss that we feel, emptiness around letting them go from out minds and hearts, well Silver Moon is right..any thinking at all about them is so harmful. It really is a mind f Louise. Honestly. They need to be buried (I wish). As I’ve said many x, I used and use Godz as a distraction and I it’s hard to get out of the habit.
The times I hate are those when I truly can’t figure out how he could be so obviously fond of me “What can I do for you?????”. I just rolled my eyes when he said that, the big boss, standing in my office. When I had to be late one day because of car trouble, I email’d him (everything I wanted or needed went straight to him as he requested) and he wanted to come pick me up. I can only wonder what would have happened if I said yes. But I didn’t. Not at all sure why…I am quite not well myself, because when the possibility was there of getting together, I didn’t go for it. Instead I felt nauseous and sick re: the reality of being together. Not sure what was going on there…maybe guilt bec of hub. But that happened a lot when I was younger, before marriage, I would get absolutely panicked before some dates and have to call them off….
OK, listen, Libra, try not to let that convo get to you. Not that this should make one bit of difference, but your path and his mom are a couple…no GF is going to make any difference.
Here’s my quote for the day:
Norman Bates.
Take care everyone and believe in the gems that are are right here on this blog. Read many x a day with or without food. No restrictions on this prescription.
still reeling:
I really am all those things you say about me! You should see me…haha! Sorry, I had to give myself a pat on the back as I have had a very sad day. We have good ones and bad ones and this was not a better one I must say. Just feeling like the wind is out of my sails and what’s the point to anything really.
But you did crack me up again with David Frost!!!! How hilarious! I do remember him. I’m almost 49 so I do remember him when I was a young girl. But I hate to break it to you…the spath looks more like Daniel Craig…swoon. Unfortunately. Same body type, exact same color of hair, exact same haircut, blue eyes…they actually were born in the same city. I think they are distant cousins?
I do know I am too good for him and actually, I think he knows it, too. He knows he is slime. The OW showed me an Instant Message exchange between the two of them and she called him an ass and he said, “Everyone knows I’m an ass.” Sooooo…he knows it, no doubt. How can he not? He knows all the destruction he has left in his wake.
I’m beginning to wonder if his dad was a liar and a cheat just like he is? I will never know. His dad died at age 54 of Leukemia. But I heard from someone else that his mom was very domineering and the dad was the peacemaker, the buffer…hmmmm, sounds familiar, doesn’t it? That’s his family dynamics now…his wife is much more domineering and he is more passive, but he’s passive/aggressive. But still…now his kids are growing up in the same environment he did and how are they going to turn out? Just like him I am sure.
You said he must have had some redeeming qualities and yes he did…kissing (best ever), no snoring, intelligent, calm demeanor, adaptable, fun, playful, his touch, affection, his independence, his appreciation for the finer things in life, polite (only when he wanted to be I guess). But the bad qualities were…alcoholic, cheater, stonewaller, unreliable (even though he has held the same job for 20 years), puts people down, lazy. Other than that, he is pretty pathetic…I just fell in love with him and I will never know why I fell so hard. And now I am suffering.
Without a doubt a sociopath. It’s the only thing that can explain WHY I cannot get over him…it’s the only thing. He bore a hole through my head the way a worm does an apple. Hahaha, bad teeth! I know that is a stereotype of the English (sorry to all my English LF peeps…nothing personal…remember, I’m in love with a Brit), but yeah, his teeth weren’t that great, but they just kind of went with him if you know what I mean. It’s one of those things where if he were to get them fixed, it would probably ruin his looks. Perfect example…Dan Wheldon (may he RIP) the IndyCar driver who was killed last October…if you see pictures of him before and after his teeth were fixed, in my opinion, he looked way better with his natural teeth. As a matter of fact, his teeth before they were fixed are very similar to the spaths. Noooo, no smoking! He hated it and so do I. I would have never even agreed to a first date if he smoked. That’s a huge no-no for me…a deal breaker.
Of course it scares the heck out of me to let someone else in…and go through this pain again?? No way, I just can’t risk it…I just can’t. If that means he wins, then he wins. Plus, it is not fair at all to the men who I may go out with if I have no interest at all.
There is definitely a mother connection. Mine doesn’t get along with his and there you have it. I don’t have any specifics…he never said a whole lot about his mom, but I got the drift. He did tell me that his mom never did like his wife from day one. I would guess because they are both head strong and butt heads.
They are/were a mind f*ck. Hmmmm, spath was doing that with me actually what you were feeling…not getting together with me when he had many chances…he probably felt panicked, too being married and all. I don’t know…I think he resents me now. I think I am probably just a bad reminder of a time in his life he would rather forget. I feel like you also…how could all the sweet things he said to me NOT be true? How could he not have really meant them…especially when he was saying them way after the fact of having sex. I guess just to keep me on the line, but for what? We weren’t having sex anymore yet he would say all these sweet things to me that were not always sexual. Sigh, I don’t know…I need to give it up.
Thanks for being here for me.
Louise;
You and i have had such similar experiences and while I have had my moments, I can honestly say I am past any emotional connection and any lingering thoughts are do to unanswered questions.
Are you fully engaged in meaningful work, hobbies and interests? Do you have any lingering depression?
I believe it was Ox Drover who first pointed out similarities to a relationship with a sociopath and PTSD. I did a lot of research on this and discovered that obsessive thinking is a symptom of the HPA-Axis gone awry and once treated, diminishes.
I’m so sorry you’re having one of those days, Louise.
Behind blue eyes is right…obsessive thinking has plagued me since I was a tot and while I’ve been told over and over and over how hard it is to treat, there are things you can do to help yourself. IMO, it’s an addiction to thinking and addictions are hard to break. This is prob one reason Bboy hangs in your head and you keep trying to figure it out, as I do Godzilla.
BTW, I thought about my “bad teeth” comment and as you, certainly hope anyone on this forum understands it was a joke and then some.
I agree with Behind Blue Eyes in that hooking into something that’s rewarding and/or fun to do, no matter what it is, really helps. I watched an indie last night after my hub went to bed (he doesn’t like indies anymore) about a woman who was just such a great and compassionate human being, she was basically always in a state because of it. Finally she decided to volunteer her time and watching that really made me feel that it IS possible to forget things like Godz and BBoy when one is filled to the brim with the good feelings that giving can bring you.
You said re: BBoy: “his mom never did like his wife from day one..” Sure, she wouldn’t like any woman that tried to replace her in his life. I do believe, as I said in my post above, behind most paths you’ll find a dysfunctionally “adoring” mother. Sad.
Daniel Craig!!!! Bummer. And this will drop your jaw because Godz looks like Pierce Brosnan, another Bond. Wow, that is bizarre. Actually PB is not my type at all, but very easy on the eyes. This is part of what drove me nuts…I would always be worrying about women as he was so good-looking and such a cheat, I never stood a chance. But I figured, he likes me. And he seems to do things that he only does with me and says around me….oh well, not worth going there, Louise. I suppose as we’ve said over and over, they choose well, then lay their toxic eggs in your brain. They tell you enough truths and behave in enough ways that just kind of allow you to believe they care (sounds like BBoy did quite a lot of that!!) but then act in ways and say things that just befuddle the mind. It’s like decorating the house for the holidays, Xmas let’s say, then slowly destroying all the decorations. I used to say Godzilla “lit me up”, the pulled out the plug, over and over and over again.
Yes, all those sweet things they say, but he also says he’s an ass an doesn’t care. There is no emotional connection there, why would he attach any meaning to being called an ass or the reason he deserved to be called one. Same for his + behavior. No emotional connection to it either. Like Chance the Gardner, in Being There, who mirrored what he saw on TV, these demented but ever so smart, psychos mirror other people (the stare). It’s as if they are recording not what you say but your affect and response and mannerisms for future use. Sick.
I feel very let down in myself because I knew there was something wrong with this jerk and I didn’t trust him from the moment I laid eyes on him. He was also very laid back and patient and as I look back, he said and did many things in his slow, patient way. He was just waiting for a cue from me and he got one one day when I was just being me and gave him a compliment, in front of other people, something I would say to *anyone*. Within a few days, he hit on me and you could have knocked me over with a feather. He is also soooooooooooooooooo P-A just like BBoy. His affect, being so very laid back, made his occasional pronouncements in the middle of the office (you were so missed!), (what can I DO fo you), (Reeling, will you accompany me to the 6th floor, I need to take some paperwork down there!), crazy stories that were supposed to be provocative but just made ME stare because others could hear. Then to turn around and ignore, neglect, walk right past me at times, blow off my emails, etc. I was walking into a place with one land mine after another and I had NO idea.
Today my idea of Nirvana is to reach a state of apathy re: him. Not to think I’m going to see him here and there, not to freak out that if I see him, he will think I look older, etc. My test is whether or not I’d run away or go fix myself up if I saw him. It the answer is yes, (and it still is right now), I am still caught up. I want to reach apathy.
I love you. Hang in and try to find some fun distractions.
Also, you *can* trust again, if you *want* to. Now you know what to look for. You have BBoy radar, use it!! For awhile, you will think you see it in everyone you meet. But that will get better. Hugs
Libragirl. Great story! The mother is in denial just like my exspaths wife. Sees the lies and bullshit but doesnt really get it. And she sounds spathy, maybe a n, like skylar says.
Dont email this guy. The new girlfriend is getting all the lies that you got. He treats her no different. Spaths treat everybody the same. They manipulate and use people. Thats all they can do.
Do not even hint to your spath that you care. He wins if you do.
He is a piece of shit. You can do better.
Athena
Libragirl,
Yup the mother is in partly in denial, and yet knows how bad he is. You were in doubt. Meeting his mom and her answers to your questions validate what you had trouble accepting.
Stay NC. Don’t send the email, but be satisfied and rpoud that you saw through him enough to go NC over a month ago! Think it! Don’t send it!
As for the gf? Be grateful he’s making her life miserable instead of yours, meanwhile pity her and hope she passed him along to another soon enough.
Interesting observation about the obsessive thinking and PSTD. I haven’t been “diagnosed” with PSTD, but I sure exhibit the symptoms from time to time.
So, how do we effectively REDIRECT when that obsessive thinking starts spiralling???? I’ve been doing a lot of self-talk (sometimes, aloud) to just “STOP IT” and force myself to think about kittens and butterflies – no kidding, kittens and butterflies. And, how frigging LONG does this obsessive thinking continue?! Does it stop after a divorce? Sheesh, I keep thinking about where I’m going to live, HOW I’m going to live, how I’m going to afford health care needs, etc., ad nauseum. And, it’s so FUTILE, right now!
Then, there’s the “how-can-he-be-so-cruel” mode. To walk away and turn one’s back on someone without even a bag of cat food for HIS cat that was in MY care….I have to keep telling myself (again, sometimes aloud) that he never DID care. He doesn’t “care” and never did. This, I suppose is the turn in the loop for me – accepting that he did not care, ever, at any time, and only pretended when it was necessary.
I like the references to the 12-Step programs and managing my survival. I think I really need to apply some of that to this obsessive thinking.
Brightest blessings