Charlie Taylor, expert advisor to the British government on behavior, has suggested that nursery schools identify toddlers showing early signs of aggression so that they can receive specialist intervention.
The Daily Mail reported:
Taylor said nurseries should be able to spot children with behavioural issues and recommend them for specialist tuition to provide them with boundaries and social skills.
Mr Taylor said: ‘Any child can go off the rails for a bit and what we need is a system that is responsive to them and helps them to get back on the straight and narrow.’
He said it was easier to tackle poor behaviour among young children because habits were less ingrained.
”˜If you can see it coming when they are two or three or four or five, then that’s when we can intervene,’ he said.
Read: How a bad ‘un can be spotted at the age of TWO — and should be sent to ‘discipline institutes’ at five, says behaviour tsar, on DailyMail.co.uk.
When I first read this article, I thought Charlie Taylor knew what he was talking about. Many Lovefraud readers who discovered that their children had sociopathic traits have told me that they saw callous, unemotional and aggressive behavior at a very young age. Other readers who became involved with sociopaths who already had children sometimes saw the same thing—kids who were lying and manipulating almost as soon as they could talk.
What is to be done with these children? One of the most important points in Dr. Liane Leedom’s book, Just Like His Father?, is that the sooner you start working with an aggressive child to change his or her behavior, the better your chances of success.
Riots in the United Kingdom
Charlie Taylor made his comments upon publication of a report that he wrote on Britain’s alternative education system. Taylor analyzed the schools and services offered to students who were expelled from mainstream public schools, often for behavior issues.
The report was commissioned by the government in the wake of the riots that shook the country for five days in August 2011. Mobs roamed through 10 different boroughs of London and several other cities, including Bristol, Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool. Approximately 3,100 people were arrested. According to the Guardian, the rioters were overwhelmingly young, male and unemployed.
The Guardian also published a series of articles written by sociologists analyzing what happened. To summarize some of the findings, the newspaper wrote:
Many interviewees identified deprivation and inequality as root issues. Some spoke about the lack of work opportunities and access to education, as well as the educational maintenance allowance cuts. Some believed that getting an education was the key to the golden gate, but a year after graduation they were still struggling to find work. For others, also out of work, a university degree had never been on the cards.
Many of these young people may have grown up in chaotic homes, developed mental health or personality issues, failed in school, and become stuck in destructive behavior. How is society to solve these problems?
Reactions to the suggestion
The best way to address these issues is to start young—the younger the better. So I thought Charlie Taylor’s suggestions had merit. That wasn’t the view of some commentators in the UK media.
Here’s what Sonia Poulton, a columnist with MailOnline, wrote:
According to Mr. Taylor, nurseries are a fertile ground to spot and tag the troublemakers so that they may receive anger management classes before they enter formal education at primary school level.
Sometimes, in daily life, it pays just to laugh at foolishness. As I did – long and hard – when I first heard this recommendation. I can’t take it seriously and I hope other citizens of the UK will respond in the same way. Frankly, it simply does not warrant consideration on any reasonable level.
Read Anger management for two-year-olds? The State wants control from cradle to grave, on DailyMail.co.uk.
Sonia Poulton’s comments reflect the vast ignorance of many people in society about personality disorders. It’s the belief that at the core of our beings, we’re all basically the same. It’s a belief that gets us in a lot of trouble.
Some of us are radically different, even as toddlers. When children are born with a genetic predisposition towards sociopathy, or born into a terrible home environment, the best chance we have for saving them is to intervene as soon as possible. If nursery school teachers could refer troublesome toddlers for special attention, it may help them grow up to be productive members of society, rather than rioters.
I think that right now, we just do not know. The research has not been done. I would not laugh at this suggestion (to intervene earlier) but I also don’t necessarily believe that intervention (as Dr. Leedom writes about) works.
This is one question I’d love to have answers to and not speculation. I would like some studies, as controlled as possible. Not a government-imposed policy of intervention without any research to support it.
It will take years, of course! But I also think we can start to do some retroactive studies now…
right now all we have to go on are theories, gut feelings of parents who are raising or who have raised difficult children, or who have had children with sociopaths.
I have three kids who are not yet grown, by (the same) undiagnosed (except by me) sociopathic father. I am the parent of identical twins. I have also taught young children. From my experience and what I have observed, personalities are largely inborn and my gut tells me that there is only a very small margin of influence possible through behavioral training. I think there is the potential for some nutritional intervention (and that is often not considered).
I am also concerned about the potential for government to blame parents for raising sociopathic children who turn into sociopathic adults, as I do not believe sociopathy is caused by bad parenting, nor can it be prevented by good parenting.
I do think that some children with sociopathic tendencies (genetic) can learn to mask it better, but I do not believe that their sociopathic impulses can be changed. I do not think that empathy can be taught.
These are only my gut feelings and my hypothesis. I’d love to see some studies done that will shed more light on this.
There have also been several articles coming out of the UK lately about how many kids are going to regular school (not nursery school) who are NOT potty trained. Which would indicate to me a lot lacking in home life.
I agree that problem children should be tackled as soon as they show signs of real problems….but….and here’s the BIG BUT…many of the nursery schools and day cares that I have been inside have very young girls (cheap labor) working there who are definitely not qualified do spot the emotional and developmental levels that are problematic from a rhino.
As part of my outreach from the hospital that owned my clinic to the public Back when “blood and body fluids” information about Hep B and other information was being taught to employees of the hospitals and clinics, we reached out to the day care centers and the schools. I went to the day care centers to give them BASIC instruction on blood and body fluid precautions and SANITATION.,…HAND WASHING and so on. After my class was over I hung around for questions etc. and I observed staff members picking up one child, putting him on a changing table, changing his diaper, then reaching for another kid and putting them on the same table and changing that child’s diaper. No hand wash between, no wiping the table off.
It is unfortunate but unless things have changed the only qualification for working in a day care is not having a sexual offender background, and in some places, that won’t disqualify you until the cops show up.
When my kids were “day care age” I was a stay at home mom, my oldest son C was ADHD and “into everything” but not a problem just needed careful watching. Patrick was pretty much an ideal baby and toddler. When they got to Pre school age, still no problems, but because we lived away from other kids, I took them to the local day care for the day one day a week for them to just have the experience. They loved it and the teachers gave good reports. Patrick was the darling of his teachers until he was in 10th grade. In his case, I don’t think it would have helped at all.
In my professional life I have seen kids as young as 7 -10 years old instutionalized for ADHD/conduct disorder that was really SCARY. Many of these kids were adopted, so I don’t know what their genetic background was, but their parents were “good” parents who worked hard at being nurturing parents.
So what I am saying is that aggression shows up at different ages and may be related to different things than psychopathy. Bad parenting can show up at different ages too. Sometimes Psychopathy may not show up in any meaningful way until puberty or later, and frankly, at THAT point I don’t think there is much you can do about it.
I think unless a researcher shadows a parent 24/7, it would be very hard to make any meaningful conclusions about that person’s parenting.
I know because I live inside myself, that I am a very good parent. I also know my weaknesses and the times when I have lost patience with my children… and I know that I am normal and not abusive. I would love to meet the parent who is 100% perfect for the entire years of raising children, because that parent does not exist.
I am pretty sure that sociopathic parents would put on a very good public mask, so how on earth could this be evaluated. I don’t see how you could judge by the child’s behavior if the parents are good parents or not.
The thing about the potty training is interesting, and I’m curious what’s behind that trend…
I am also curious about the incidence of genetic sociopathic tendencies in children raised in adoptive homes — are children with these genes more likely to be given up for adoption?
Well, I’m curious about all aspects of this. I doubt we will be getting answers anytime soon.
We do not pay daycare workers enough to attract and keep people who are highly (or well enough?) qualified. And we do not pay families enough, in general, to be able to afford to pay anymore than they already do for daycare. There is a reason I was a stay at home mom — 3 kids within 2 years, I would have been paying out more than I would have earned at any job I could have gotten.
20 years,
For a long time it was noted that adopted children didn’t turn out “as well” as children born into families but it was assumed at the time that babies were “blank slates” and that the adoptive parents, therefore were “spoiling” these kids. Then medical science and psychiatry got “real” and realized that hey, there’s something to this genetic thing….of course there are more disordered people either give up a child or have it take away than Harvard Dons who just decide to give up their kids…more alcoholics, more drug users, more psychopaths, more mentally ill, etc. so these kids were not a cross section of the country, but were selected from the problematic part of the population, and what do you think? They were more problematic. Since they were not raised by their problematic parents it was seen that the problems seemed to come from the genes not the upbringing.
Also there were some studies done on TWINS that were separated at birth (by adoption) and raised in different homes and how they turned out. WOW! They identical twins turned out pretty much alike and something like 80% of them if one was a psychopath so was the other one, and about 50% of the non identical twins did. BINGO, now we have some data that goes along with GENETICS.
But of course genetics is NOT everything, experiences and environment also do weigh in on what kind of person the person turns out to be. Even in the womb genetics are not it totally as environment is DIFFERENT even in there, as the placenta may give one child more nutrients than the other one, etc. So, there’s a LOT OF VARIABLES and non two environments are absolutely identical even if the DNA is identical.
I stayed at home for that same reason too… plus, I thought it was important to be there for the kids.
Oxy & 20years ~
Because I am an adoptive parent and a former foster parent, I have done a lot of research into Attachment Disorders, particularily Reactive Attachment Disorder.
Many adoptived children have some form of attachment disorder. While attachment disorders tend to be clinically controversial, I don’t think they should be overlooked. Attachment Disorder experts believe genetic tendencies and vulnerabilities (nature) is a starting point, but it is a child’s relationships with caregivers that shape the course of growth and development (nuture). Children without secure attachments often have altered levels of brain chemicals (noradrenaline, cortisol and serotonin) that can cause agression, lack of impulse control, depression and high risk of substance abuse.
Lack of bonding with mother and frequent changes in care givers, failure to have basic needs met are some of the causes of attachment disorders. Most happen in infancy.
Children with attachment disorders cannot be “fixed” or “cured”, but by creating a healing environment they can learn to connect.
An EXCELLENT book on the subject is “Healing Parents – Helping Wounded Children Learn to Trust & Love” by Michael Orlans and Terry M. Levy – I highly recommend it.
Just the quotes and children’s drawings scattered throughout the book are worth the price – “It is better to build children than repair adults” – anonymous
I wonder about two things you said, MiLo… 1) that many adopted children have some form of an attachment disorder, and 2) that lack of bonding with mother may be one of the causes of attachment disorders, and that most happen in infancy. So I’m wondering if there are any conclusions that have been (or can be) drawn genetically, with children who are adopted at birth. I’m also wondering if psychological screenings are done on sperm donors.
I know it is a mix of heredity and environment (with the womb being one of the environments)… I guess ultimately, wondering how much of personality is inborn (a product of genes and womb environment, including potential interacting with one’s twin sibling in the womb…) and how much personality is formed within days of birth, how much within first year, and so on.
What about kids who have the best possible genetic inheritance, stable and nurturing home for the first five years, then are traumatized by a bullying environment when they get to school? Can personality be altered? Or does personality remain intact but behavior and emotional health change? I guess I’m interested in what is behind our Self — at which point is that fairly well set in place?
In my own case, I know that I have been Me for as long as I can remember, with good things and traumatic things happening. My mental health might vary, depending on the stress I’m under, but my personality is the same.
Those twin studies are totally fascinating, Oxy. And with my own girls, I observe that they are similar in temperament and degree of emotion displayed, similar in the proportion of empathy they display, similar in how introverted/extroverted they are. They are both equally creative but have different areas of pursuing that. They have similar intellectual profiles but one has more “scatter” on the subtests than the other one, and indeed she is also the one who has more ups and downs in general, in just about every aspect (higher highs, lower lows). They are clearly two different people, but many overlaps.
They both look alike and hate being asked, “are you Karen or Laura?” when people can’t tell them apart. They have figured out a funny/obnoxious answer to give: “yes.” And then when people say, “but which ONE are you??” the answer is: “I’m the pretty one.” or “the fat one” or “the nice one,” etc.
It must be hard to be a twin. 🙂
Milo, oh, I totally agree that an “attachment disorder” can be MADE BY ENVIRONMENT when a kid is taken from one caregiver and bounced to another and another and another….and I think that is partly what some day care environments do is to have so many different caregivers there, mostly who are not all that nurturing, the kid is just “one of the herd of little kids on the floor” which I think can LEAD TO ATTACHMENT DISORDER, because the “primary caregiver” parent drops them off at 6:30 or 7 and doesn’t pick them up til 5 or 6 p.m. gives them a bath and maybe supper and puts them to bed…so who is the PRIMARY caregiver? Well let’s see it’s karen, and Jane, and sue and Ann at the day care 5 days a week 12 hours a day…
In more “primative” societies babies are carried on mom’s back, he sleeps with her, nurses from her and BONDS with her….DUH???? So a kid knows who mama is and who daddy is and who the sibs are and who the people in the community are and what the RULES are.
In our culture, kids are exposed to 100s of people that they will never see again rather than a smaller number of people that they will be able to bond with. I realize that some kids do well changing schools all the time and moving from city to city, but I think a lot of the problems we have is the mobility of our people and the lack of real bonding.
When I was a kid we moved every 2-3 years for my dad’s job, and I HATED THAT…the only constant I had was the farm which was really my “home” at least emotionally. I can’t imagine what I would have done if I’d had NO roots in a place and in a community. I think part of the grief I felt at the whole “summer of chaos” was losing those roots. I’m not so tied to the PLACE of the farm any more, or even the community which the egg donor “poisoned the well” from which I drank, but I have found NEW WATER and so I’m doing okay, but it was a struggle.
Good questions 20years, I wish I had the answers. LOL (don’t we all)
I can tell you that the symptom checklist for attachment disorders reads like the scociopathic symptom checklist, with a few exceptions like poor hygiene, chronic body tension, accident prone, abnormal eating habits and indiscriminately affectionate with strangers (this is one I personally observed in RAD kids that seems so strange)
That is what is so confusing, if there is such a thing as attachment disorders in kids, and it does make sense, but then how do you seperate it from genetic sociopathic traits?
I had a neurologist refer to it as “brain damage due to lack of bonding” years ago, before “attachment disorder” was a common term. I can also tell you that the little girl that was diagnosed by him was beyond anyone’s wildest dreams as far as behaviors, the worst of the worst.
You spoke of the womb being one of the environments – the book I recommended speaks about a “neglectful” mother in this way “Imagine that before you were born you received messages of ambivalence about your value or were flatly unwanted. You are overcome with your mother’s stress hormones, anxiety, depression and fear. A poor maternal diet, drinking, smoking and drugs also assault you. You are thrust into a state of chronic anxiety.”
When talking about lack of bonding it mentions “You haven’t received the experiences necessary to correctly “wire” your brain.” Over and over with my grandson (who was diagnosed with RAD) neurologists, psychiatrists and behavioral specialists have used the words “his brain is wired differently”.
Another one of your questions, about adoptions at birth vs. later adoptions. My personal experience – my spath daughter was adopted at 14 months while my normal son was adopted at birth. My daughter also has spath genes on both sides of her biological makeup. I’m not sure about my son, although I saw many traits in his bio mom.
Because Grand was diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder at age 3, although we were not 100% comfortable with that diagnosis, we began to parent him in a therapeutic way recommended to us and I believe it has truly saved him. However, I also believe that the approach would help any emotionally and neurological impaired child. It is similar to Dr. Leedom’s approach. He also had “floor play” “occupational therapy” ADHD therapy and a boatload of other “therapy”.
I certainly, personally believe that traumatic bullying in a school setting can have a very negative impact on a child, to what extent and what you would call it, who knows.
Thanks for listening
Oxy ~ We posted over each other. I also wonder if that is not why we are seeing such an increase in things that are being diagnosed as Autism and other behavioral problems. If it isn’t a form of attachment disorder because of the need for day care. It is, after all a change in caregivers.
Maybe this could have something to do with the fact that you see almost no “autism” in the Amish community. There is no day care and the mothers and fathers carry the baby around almost non-stop.
I would highly recommend the book I mentioned.
MiLo, I think you can CREATE a psychopath the same way you can CREATE a “mean ass dog” Now, I admit that some breeds of dogs are easier to turn into “mean ass dogs” and some dogs will just cower down and belly crawl and no matter what you do to them they will NOT ever become a “mean ass” dog.
But if you take a dog and tie it to a tree, tease it, frustrate it, don’t give it any socialization, etc. you can make it a kick as “mean dog” that will bite anyone and has NO loyalty to anyone either.
I think you can do the same thing to a CHILD and make it into a pseudo-psychopath, or maybe into a real one. The child will grow up to not trust or bond with anyone, seeing others as dangerous. Maybe it is that kind of treatment that ACTIVATES a gene for psychopathy that is already there.
I know in cattle the testosterone is what makes an animal want to climb the aggression/control ladder. Steers and cows do not try to climb up that ladder and will accept their “place” in the social order, and there is a definite pecking order in a herd, from the boss cow to the cow everyone picks on.
As a bull calf matures he will take on the boss bull and eventually either defeat him or essentially be submissive to him. In small herds the defeated bull will if soundly defeated leave the herd, but a bull calf as he gets bigger will come back for more and eventually he will defeat the old bull and drive him from the herd. (or at least from breeding activity)
In dogs neutering decreases the aggression some, especially with other dogs.
Neutering in humans is only effective if done when the person is young as far as history of castration is concerned. It has been done voluntarily for various reasons and involuntarily as well.
A rapist here in Arkansas was castrated by the woman’s family. He went to prison but eventually was released on “humanitarian grounds” and under the mistaken idea he would no longer be a threat as a rapist…within a year he had raped and killed a woman.