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By | July 8, 2010

Is God A Sociopath?

I’ve been thinking lately about God, assuming He exists. Mainly, I’ve been thinking about the Judeo-Christian biblical conception of God, and asking myself, crazy as this sounds, if He exists, Is God a sociopath?

I pose this question seriously, and apologize in advance for offending anyone by probing this idea. But consider:

You are expected to worship Him.

You are expected to acknowledge His perfection.

You are expected to live by His standards.

You are expected to fear His Judgement.

You are expected to please, not disappoint Him.

You are expected to do penance when you’ve strayed from His rules.

You are expected to be in awe of, and fear, His omniscience.

You are expected to be in awe of, and fear, His omnipotence.

You are expected to prize His love, and fear His wrath.

You are expected to seek, and follow, His guidance.

When He feels unheeded, He licenses Himself to unleash cruel, violent, devastating rages (see the Flood, among countless other examples).

He is a punisher.

He is perfect.

He has no guilt; yet He instills guilt.

He “made,” and he “works,” the world and universe from “above,” sitting in Judgement of all who deviate from Him.

He is infallible.

He is unaccountable.

He is callous—a cause of, and silent witness to, untold violence and suffering in the history of humanity.

He is “entitled—”to judge, and punish, as He likes.

He is controlling to a highly pathological degree, for all the reasons stated above.

He is merciful, so long as you heed Him. Otherwise, He can be merciless.

He expects to be idealized and treated like a God.

He rages, and inflicts the cruelest of punishments, when He feels defied.

His word is the bible.

Now you tell me: If I were describing a human being in these terms, what conclusion would you draw? I suspect, if you weren’t feeling defensive, that you’d conclude that we’re talking about someone with a case of seriously malignant narcissism edging, perhaps, into the realm of sociopathy?

But, of course, I’m describing the Judeo-Christian God.

Think about this: from the earliest age, this is your almighty Father figure. You are taught to worship Him, seek His love, His mercy, accept His perfection and infallibility.

You are taught that His word is final; His wrath is justified; to feel shame before His eyes.

You are taught to have to work hard to earn your way back into His good graces, and to be grateful for His forgiveness.

His judgement is final, and even terrifying.

Now if this is the Father figure we’ve been raised to heed and idealize from birth, is it not fair to wonder how much this relationship—with God—might predispose us to end up with a sociopath?

Does one’s adult relationship with a sociopath not replicate, in certain ways, one’s relationship with God?

I pose this as food for thought, nothing else. But I will follow-up this post in the next several weeks, to further flesh out my thoughts, factoring in, as well, your initial feedback.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

Posted in: Steve Becker, LCSW

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Dani S

Steve I love this and very brave to post !!!!!!

Wini

OK, I’ll give up some of the key words that non-believers do not comprehend.

You are expected to worship Him. Meaning, you are suppose to open up the Bible and read what is written (truth versus lies, wisdom versus staying ignorant).

You are expected to acknowledge His perfection. Meaning, know the difference between a loving functional individual versus a hateful, dysfunctional individual.

You are expected to live by His standards. Comprehend what healthy, positive minded is.

You are expected to fear His Judgement. Meaning to Fear God is to start learning wisdom.

You are expected to please, not disappoint Him. Meaning, don’t slack off and stop reading wisdom after the first scripture.

You are expected to do penance when you’ve strayed from His rules. Meaning, don’t be an airhead and do as you please, learn to live civilly among others.

You are expected to be in awe of, and fear, His omniscience. Again, meaning to start learning wisdom.

You are expected to be in awe of, and fear, His omnipotence. Same thing ” meaning start learning wisdom.

You non-believers have some reading to do to catch up. Oh, isn’t that what one tomato said to the other tomato?

changedforever

“With tears in my eyes”

”“My God is a God of love, peace, understanding, comfort and empathy. My God has conscience and heart.
My God doesn’t manipulate, cheat, lie, con, steal, abuses or uses me, he respects and loves me for who I am and doesn’t try to kill my soul or my personality.
When He punishes me is with love to teach me as every good father should do with his children.—This Is The God I worship.

BloggerT7165

Timely post and seeing as Wini pointed me to an old post I made that fits here I will repost it here. FYI to Wini I used his words but I thought this long before I knew him.

This is a small explanation of my view on “God”. The words are not mine but come from a Rabbi and his words over time that I find I agree with and just paraphrase now:

For me, and I can only speak for myself, I see “God” in a much different light than some. I’ll try to explain my view in hopes it may be of help to you.

God is the Source and Substance of all that is. God manifests as and transcends all reality. God is not other than creation, nor is God limited to creation. (I do not believe in intelligent design, I believe the design itself is intelligent.)

Self. The individual is a manifestation of God. We are to God as rays of sunlight are to the sun. Sunlight is simply the sun manifest in time and space. It is not other than the sun nor is it all of the sun. You and I are rays of God. We are not all of God, nor are we other than God. This is what the Bible means when it says we are created in the image and likeness of God.

When you know who you are as the image and likeness of God you live from love with love. You embrace each moment with gratitude, and each being with justice and compassion. Living this way is heaven. Living any other way is hell.

When we are in spacious mind we are awake to God in, with, and as all reality; we identify with all life, and find ourselves embraced by and living from ahava rabba, infinite love. In spacious mind there is no Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, saved or damned. There is only God manifest in infinite variety. In spacious mind we live freely, lovingly, fearlessly, with compassion and hospitality toward all we meet. This is heaven.

When we are in narrow mind we are locked in the prison of ego, and imagine ourselves to be separate from God and creation. We live in perpetual fear, and engage life without trust, love, and compassion. In narrow mind we divide and judge, calling some chosen or saved and others infidels or damned. In narrow mind differences, God’s infinite creativity, scare us, and we worship the idol of conformity. In narrow mind we imagine ourselves to be alone, afraid, and adrift. This is hell.

We move into and out of heaven and hell depending on our state of mind. The purpose of authentic spiritual practice is to open us to heaven and spacious mind. Too often, however, we worship at the altar of ego and end up in the hell of narrow mind. It has nothing to do with God rewarding or punishing us. It has everything to do with our willingness to see what is true.

I am to God as a wave to the ocean. Each wave is unique and distinct, yet all waves are nothing other than the ocean in which they arise. Each being is unique and distinct, and yet not other than God who is all that is.

God to me is, as the Bible says, “Ehyeh asher Ehyeh,” (Exodus 3:14) the I AM that is all being and becoming. God is the water than embraces both ocean and the wave. God is the nondual Reality that embraces and transcends the duality of absolute and relative, I and Thou, front and back, good and evil. There is nothing that is other than God. Nothing that is apart from God.

To me God is not a thing that can be just or unjust, good or evil. God is Reality, and Reality can be both just and unjust, both loving and cruel. But these are human concepts. Nature is neither good or evil, it is just what it is. We humans call things good and evil depending on whether or not they serve our interests. What I am saying is that when I see myself and all beings are part of the nondual Reality I call God, I see the wisdom of engaging life with love, compassion, empathy, and justice toward all beings.

shana31

As in all things, you have a choice. The choice of honoring and reverencing God has and always will come down to two words…Free Will.

Wini

Good post Shana31, free will (meaning your choice) to be either a functioning, loving, intelligent human being that lives in harmony with others and takes responsibility for their thoughts, words, actions …. or the complete opposite … to be an anti-social personality in the world, non functioning, hateful, foolish with self centered thoughts, desires and deeds who will never take responsibility for their thoughts, words or actions.

Amen, which means “SO IT IS or THAT IS THAT”

Hell, meaning anguish … for what a fool does to us having them come into our lives.

Peace.

shana31

It is with faith in God that I have been able to move out of toxic relationships. They simply were not what He wants for me.

Frank Lee Speaking

Hey, the thread I really wanted to see started here! Cheers.

Consider this; Satan told Eve not to be bullied anymore by God – now think about that. Who is the real sociopath in this equation? The autocratic, intolerant bullying God, or the serpent in the Garden who pointed this bullying out to Eve?

Interesting when you look at it this way. Isn’t it? Was Satan the original Robert Hare? Perhaps the first women’s lib advocate?

Of course I am being simplistic and I do not believe in the silly garbage of a devil or a hell, but just flipping the context so you see how easily the “scripture” can be changed to suit an agenda?

I am delighted to see this topic brought up as so many people here seem to think the Bible is helping them. This is frightening in terms of the path they are taking for recovery as they are jumping straight into the ultimate manual of sociopathic manipulation.

This is what the Bible was designed to do from its inception. From the Council of Nicea to the Councils of Withby and Trent it has all been about creating a bespoke “God” so it makes it easier to control the rest of us. It is not a religion created with our welfare in mind, no religion anywhere on the planet is about anything which ultimately helps ordinary people. Its all about controlling them by playing on their fears. Sociopathy 101.

Firstly, we have to define who and what this biblical “God” is. I have studied this stuff for years to the point were I have collected many books and even some historic archives on the matter. Essentially the origins of the Western religions; Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all rooted in Astrology. Or to be more correct Astro-Theology. Old fashioned Paganism.

This is basically worshipping the stars and planets as Gods. For instance; Judaism is mostly rooted in the worship of the planet Saturn. Lucifer is the planet Venus, Christ is rooted in the worship of Egyptian (Horus), The Virgin Mary (Osiris and the Sumarian Queen Semiramius) and Roman solar deities (Sol Invictus and Mithra). You get the idea. Same dieties, new packaging.

This is all very interesting and harmless stuff. In fact, once you read into it, Astro-Theology and Paganism in general are good ways to develop archetypal understandings of natural laws. Joseph Campbell has written many wonderful works on this. I myself being Irish tend to aling myself with Druidic concepts. Which culturally works for me more effectively than the misery which the appalling Catholic and Protestant sects have brought to my island for hundreds of years. (Saint Patrick was a Roman agent who did to the Druids what the Conquistadors did to the Mayans)

But that just something that interests me personally and helps me grasp certain archetypal concepts otherwise difficult to grasp within the context of the Western mind. I do not worship anything.

But I feel a sense of “connection” to other humans and animal souls and nature. I need no middle man – nobody does. We are all incredible Gods and Goddess’ inside ourselves and been conned into handing our true spiritual nature to the sociopaths in frocks. But I can see the wonder and true beauty in some of the wisdom that can be found in Christian, Judaic and Islamic and many Eastern Hindu and especially Taoist Text. But joining any club is not for me. The only God I need is myself. Same for all of us. Because that’s what we all are.

The simple fact is the Judeo-Christan God is a sociopath.

Absolutely 100% no doubt. This would stand up in an clinical or anecdotal analysis of his behaviour and pathology. He is an evil, cold blooded, decieving, manipulative and generally horrible fellow.

The good news is he is also a total fiction made up by the Levite Preisthood in Babylon who were a black magic blood drinking child-sacrificing cult who fused together certain aspects of Eqyptian Atonism and the Babaloyian Religion. They also perverted Judaism into a something it was not before they became the official wing of Western religion.

All the problems with Western religious sectarianism spawned from this cult. They were not Jews anymore than Charles Manson was a Christian. They were akin to a cult who under a political mandate within the context of the Babalyonian/Sumarian empire needed a One-True-God concept to legitimise the “Divine Right of Kings” which is still sadly with us to this day.

Eventually this by way of Egypt moved to Rome and became the Catholic Church. This is how Jesus (who may or may not have been real) became the deity. Jesus was just a fusion of the eariler Mithra and Zarroastra pagan myths. (look all this stuff up and do not take my word for it)

The good news is that regardless of if you are Christian, Jew, Moslem, practicing, or otherwise and your heart is good it matters not that your religion is real or not. You make it real thought your love and deceny towards others. But you need to keep in mind that the God you worship has an appalling track record and most of the stuff he tells you is to destroy your soul and not save it.

In my personal opinion the Judeo-Christian God is the greatest disaster to have ever been visited upon mankind and has been a huge source of misery and totalitarian control on ordinary people.

The reality is, long before Constantine converted to Catholism (which is absolute bullshit when you read the true accounts) the concept of the “One True God” has been used to implement control on people. “One True King” and so on. “King of Kings”. Charlamange and the Holy Roman Empire took this idea to extemes. But to this day it still goes on. Look how many people see Obama as a sort of Godhead. He is just a man like the rest of us. But I have watched videos of Americans and others literally in a state of religious eurphoria looking at him speaking. The Devine Right of Kings idea is as strong as ever… It’s all rooted in the same concept of, if there is a God in Heaven, then we must obey his representatives on Earth…

I do not believe in a God as such. But I do believe in our amazing and incredible spiritual reality. It is deeply important to me and I make sure I am concioussly aware of my personal divinity as much as possible. Everything is a miracle. In that you, I and everyone is just a piece of “god” which makes up the whole. In the same way if you cut up a holographic image they all are a smaller version of the main image.

So we are all a sort of God, but we also have a responsibility to create the reality we live in. This planet is our school of life and we are all here to learn. This is why the sociopaths are also here. Consider them a really nasty teacher or lesson.

This is a holographic universe and without any question it reacts to our desires and wishes. This is why we have to be very careful of how we live our life and who we hand our power and energy over to. Quantum Physics and especially The Copenhagen Experiment where scientists discovered that a sub atomic particle was either a wave or matter depending on when they looked at it. This proved we get the reality we want. This is all a movie and we can write our own script. We must all strive to be Gods if we are to create the universe we want. Because we will get what we want. This is not New Age crap, but hard science which validates much of the pagan wisdom the same Bible told you would send you to burn in Hell. Isn’t that interesting…

Again, the God of the bible is a crazy psychopath, complete bullying fuitcake – anyone with honesty can see this by the horrible evil scriptures documenting his behaviour. The good news is he never existed. He was a fiction invented by evil people on behalf of psychopath rulers. The other good news is it does not matter once your heart is in the right place. It’s trancends the dogmatism put into your head since childhood.

Spirituality YES, Religion? NO Thanks!

Peace (I’ll run and hide behind the sofa now…)

Steve,

I think an important distinction needs to be made between God, the source of all things and the loving energy that holds us all, and religion, which is man-made.

What you have described is what I learned in Catholic school. Quite frankly, I don’t buy it. The dogma is not my experience of God. If you look at the history of the Catholic Church, the hierarchy was always more concerned about consolidating power than serving the flock. The New Testament was a political settlement reached at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD – an attempt to settle disputes among many different versions of Christianity. And just look at how the church is handling the sex abuse scandals today. It’s appalling.

Then, look at other religions like Buddhism, which predates Christianity. I’m not an expert in it, but my understanding is that Buddhism has none of the concepts you’ve listed above. Can all those millions of people be wrong and damned to rot in hell? That doesn’t make any sense.

shana31

This song comes from a misplaced faith and trust in someone (S-ex) or something who was not worthy. My God is worthy.
Final thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSq0PiYVM9E

Frank Lee Speaking

Take Steve’s list ad add:

“wears his trousers up around his nipples” and you have this guy:

http://nessymon.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/simon_cowell.jpg

I only half jokingly say this as we can see how in this crazy age of Celeb idolatry the same old concept remains highly flexible and adapable to the lords of the new church.

Ox Drover

Steve, This article is almost a complete restatement of the one written by”Doctor” Sam Vaknin titled “Jesus was A Narcississt” in 2007.

I was taught to be terrified of this “angry god” by my maternal DNA donor and was “scared chitless” of burning in hell forever because of not being PERFECT enough to meet the demands of this “angry god.” Personally, now, I see this as emotional abuse of a child, as well as spiritual abuse of a child.

I do believe that man (universal) has a spiritual component, and is almost programmed to believe in a “higher power.” How and when this belief is presented to a child (or adult) for that matter and in what vein, either as a loving, protective spirit or as a vengeful, hateful angry supreme being that is more intent on punishing you than helping you.

Over all, the Bible, IN MY OPINION, presents God as a “father” figure. Fathers in that time and culture literally had a life and death control over their children. However, they also had a great love for their children and did their best as of us today do to bring their children up to a happy and productive and wise adulthood under the rules of the Law of Moses (old Testament) which brought the ex-slaves into a group of people with laws and some form of civilization.

The New Testament (literally the new laws) of Jesus with the Christian attitude of “LOVE your neighbor as yourself,” and “the man who has lusted after the woman in h is heart has already committed adultery” In other words, “as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.”

The old law of Moses was just to control your behavior, it didn’t matter what you believed as long as you ACTED appropriately. However with the law of Christ, the final acts, how you FEEL and THINK and therefore behave, is what is important.

BELIEVING is important to the Christian religion, and LOVING (being kind to) others, is necessary, but no where does Christianity demand that you allow yourself to be abused, as many have contended that women must “obey your husband” etc. even if there is abuse there.

Few people I think actually acheive a Christ-like attitude of service and love for others. Though there are many people who pretend to for various self-serving reasons, but those that are truly Christ-like are quite busy serving and doing good for others. NO Narcissist or psychopath would willing go to the Crucifiction –“no greater love hath a man than he would lay it down for his friend.”

Frank Lee Speaking

Ox, there is no historical proof at all that Jesus was ever crucified. The Romans kept detailed accounts of everything right down to the relining of the brick in the walls of the sewars under the city the weekend of Jewish uprising. They is no record of Barabas or Jesus or a small revolt. There is one document which talks of a Jewish Massiah who was crucified in 33 AD in the city. But the term “Massiah” in the Roman context has the same meaning a Sadu in Hindi in that it means Holy Man or Teacher.

I personally do think that Jesus Christ was a real person. But that’s it. Just a man who was some kind of player at the time.

The story of Jesus dying for our sins were all from the Saint Paul’s missions. Read up on the history of the Gnostics too. To make statement of Jesus died on the Cross is just repeating something which has no basis in fact. Sorry that’s just how it is.

Frank Lee Speaking

This notion of “Belief” and “Faith” is a tricky path to go down. As it is not about the devotee’s sense of “knowing”, but more about “you should accept what I am telling you…you DO believe me right?…I said RIGHT!”

Isn’t that how sociopath’s gaslight us? By playing on our belief they are helping us and not destroying us. All of us are on this group are here because we all had a “belief” in a sociopath at some stage.

I will leave this conversation now, but I would implore people to research all the points I have made. Study, research and indulge blasphemy. Ask yourself do your really believe or are you just brainwashed? Is there a path to spiritual fullfilment without the need for a Bible, Talmud, Koran or Bhagavad Gita? Can I attain inner peace without signing up for the plan and instead find my own path by diping into the vast font of spiritual teachings and taking what I need to help me on the way?

Take it from me I have looked at it all (what’s the point otherwise…) and came to the conclusion that the only place god can reside is inside all of us. The concept of someone else dying for my sins is offensive and creates this “hey, you own me now!” guilt trip. Original Sin was imposed on me. I did not commit it, nor do I need anyone to die for it. Religion is a gigantic con job which builds a wall between people and their spirituality.

There are numerous dieties who were crucified for our sins. Here is one of them:

http://www.atheistview.com/images/dionysus_on_cross.gif

That is not Jesus. That is Dionysus also known as Bacchus the God of Wine which is were this became applied to the story of Jesus and the miracle of turning water into wine.

Now consider consider the following:

Adonis born pre 2000 BC of virgin Astarte, for whom the spring festival of rebirth, Eastros was named, called both God the Father and Son, Crucified to save mankind and then resurrected.

Horus born 1550 BC of virgin Isis (Egyptian name for Astarte) received gifts from 3 kings, was crucified on cross, many other similarities to Jesus story.

Krishna born 1200 BC of virgin Devake, (angelic voice announced his birth to her) in a cave, (early Christian writings claimed Jesus born in cave, not manger) heralded by a bright star, while foster father in city to pay taxes, evil king Kansa tried to kill savior by ordering slaughter of all male children, visited by wise men with gifts, many sayings and teachings similar or identical to Jesus’ teachings, performed many miracles and was crucified.

Indra born 725 BC of virgin, walked on water, other miracles, similar teachings, crucified-nailed to cross.

Buddha born of virgin Maya, via descent of Holy Ghost upon her, performed miracles, was crucified, went to Hades for 3 days, then ascended to Heaven.

Mithra born of virgin 600 BC, Dec 25, born in a cave, magi brought gifts, shepherds worshipped, had 12 disciples, died on cross to atone for mankind’s sins, ascended to heaven at spring equinox (Eastros). Held last supper with his 12, celebrated a type of Eucharist with wafers marked with a cross.

Quirinius, born of a virgin in 506 BC, crucified by King Amulius, whole earth covered in darkness, other parallels.

Attis, born of virgin Nana 200 BC, hanged on tree, resurrected, called Father God, died as atonement of sins, followers celebrated his resurrection on Eastros by parading in streets carrying small decorated pine trees and exchanging gifts.

There are 20 crucified savior/god/resurection myths from the Middle East which predate Jesus and all incorporate several similarities found in the story of Jesus.

lostingrief

steve,
excellent post. i’ve been thinking a lot about god lately, too, and have decided — for now — that there is no god. not only for the reasons you state in your post, but also because while we all have free will, if we were truly ‘god’s children’ we wouldn’t choose the most depraved paths as so many do. we wouldn’t have taken a pristine earth and plundered it to death. etc. etc.
certainly, you nailed the judeo-christian god … as he was introduced to me at a young age through catholic religious instruction. while i dismantled my connection to catholicism (and that dude in the sky) long ago, i still had an issue with even spirituality which still places the blame for failure on the recipient of the punishment; ‘if you just pray positively,’ ‘if you just affirm your good’, if you just … whatever … then it will all work out. i’ve decided it’s all a crutch. we have free will, and we all learn hard lessons. whether you believe in god or not never insulates you from harm, or pain, or sociopaths, or illness, etc. seems to me that belief in god always forces one to be something they are not, for better or worse. and those that could use that crutch to be better people, don’t care anyway!
your post certainly describes a sociopathic figure, and i’m sure that part of my (and our) desire to ‘please’ this type — from dad on down — had something to do with the notion of the ‘all-knowing punisher’ watching over at all times. it’s also, i believe, what made me so giving and willing to please male figures…at almost any cost. gross!
jesus, on the other hand, was hardly like this. his life was fraught with hardship and failure and wrath and goodness … like all other humans. what i appreciate about christ was that he called out the ‘bad’ people, and exposed them for what they are. so, i think i’ll keep god out of it, and follow jesus … not as a ‘god’, but as a outer of sociopaths!
two years NC has taught me many things. #1 … no man above me. #2 … no one above me. not even god. after freaking out about this for a week or two (“what am i supposed to believe in NOW!?”), i’ve permanently ended my search for salvation outside myself and decided, i’m just going to believe in ME … wholeheartedly … just like i always wanted to believe in a god, and all the sordid, lying, using men in my life. it’s working better than religion or love for men ever did.
hallelujah, and towanda!

Ox Drover

Frank lee speaking,

I will have my spiritual beliefs based on my own interpretation of history and of what the Bible is or is not. My egg donor tried to cram her sociopathic god down my throat before I went to grade school, but I no longer buy hers or anyone else’s dogma but rather seek and validate my own answers that are valid for MYSELF. I don’t try to convert you to believe, and there is no way you can shake my FAITH. Because faith is belief without “proof.” And FAITH IS OKAY for me, and if you choose to NOT have faith in anything, that is your right.

I don’t condemn anyone to hell olr burn anyone at the stake because they don’t believe the way I do. Over the thousands of years of diffrerent beliefs, includingt Christianity, hundreds of thousands, millions, of people have been literally burned at the stake, or stoned, or gassed for not “believing” the way others thought they should. People are DYING today (9/11) for the fact that they don’t believe the way some fundamentalist group of Muslims do. I am sure we all had ancestors who died for their religous beliefs, and I am as sure that we all also had ancestors who LIT THE FIRES that burned them at the stake.

People do all kinds of awful things to each other in the name of RELIGION. I agree with that statement. But at the same time, people who TRULY embrace SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS OF MOST RELIGIONS are not among those who are abusing others, killing others, or burning anyone at the stake in the name of their god.

Peace.

Frank Lee Speaking

People do all kinds of awful things to each other in the name of RELIGION. I agree with that statement. But at the same time, people who TRULY embrace SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS OF MOST RELIGIONS are not among those who are abusing others, killing others, or burning anyone at the stake in the name of their god.

************************

Ox, I agree. But humans do this stuff without the “Holy” books anyways. I accept fully there are lots of priests, nuns, rabbis and imans who do wonderful charity work around the world. But if they were born into a culture without a religion they would be still doing this because they have a heart of love and goodness.

I have been all over the world and met people from all ethnic groups and 90% of the people I meet are kind, decent folk who just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace. That’s because they are all true manifestations of “the God” in all of us.

If you were to ask me the main difference between a sociopath and a normal human I would instantly say there is no high frequency vibrational energy in them and they are organic robots without a soul. The soul has nothing to do with religion. It’s what we all are when you peel back the ego – in sociopaths there is only the ego.

Frank Lee Speaking

Then, look at other religions like Buddhism, which predates Christianity. I’m not an expert in it, but my understanding is that Buddhism has none of the concepts you’ve listed above.

****************

Yikes I can’t get out of this conversation!

Donna, the issue I have with Buddhism is that ultimately it is about the destruction of the self. I can’t agree with this. My soul did not manifest in this universe for me to destroy it. There is no evolution in this.

Another thing, is that Buddhism is ravaged with just as much sectarianism and political violence as any other religion. Some shocking genocides have been committed by Buddhists. Look at the Cambodian genocide for starters. As much as they try to claim that it was not organised by Buddhists, or that it was “not proper Buddists who did it” – the fact remains the psychological engine behind it was just like the Chrstian Crusades.

healingfast19

Steve, while I appreciate thought-provoking dialogue, I believe your personal belief system has colored the traits that you have attributed to God. I believe if we are truly seeking to ascertain whether or not God is a sociopath, a more objective standard should be used on which to base our findings. When we come to conclusions based on our personal views, feelings or beliefs, our perceptions about someone or something can be drastically different from realilty and, in some cases, down right wrong.

Thus, the objective standard in determining whether or not God is a sociopath must exist outside of your own thoughts, your own interpretation to ensure that the answers or results you are seeking aren’t biased or tainted.

When I view Dr. Robert Hare’s Symptoms they are stated aside from personal opinion. The symptoms to diagnose a sociopath include a listing of interpersonal traits. We know, through much research and certainly can be validated by those of us who have had contact with sociopaths, that for many of them. They save many of their sadistic behaviors for those who are truly intimate with them, while at the same time appearing in public as a saint. So if you don’t have intimate knowledge of God or even believe that God’s exists, then how can anyone really make an proper assessment on whether or not God is a sociopath in terms of His behavior with them in their life?

In order to make a diagnosis, you would have to rely on secondary diagnoses, rather than your own experiences or proof. Dr. Hare himself states “a diagnosis of psychopathy is made only when there is solid evidence that the individual matches the complete picture-that is, has most of the above symptoms.”

My response is concerned with the construct of your argument as well as the religious implications. This site has been so helpful to me and thousands of others, some who believe in God and others who may not. The one thing I would hate to see is that this thread is approached in the manner of an anti-God or anti-spirituality campaign. I see the language in some responses that belittles the beliefs of others. Is this helpful or hurtful?

Does the good outweigh the potential harm of your question?

Ox Drover

Healing fast,

Thank you for your very rational and reasonable response to this thread.

No one should have to defend, or to feel defensive about, their spiritual beliefs–especially on a site that is intended to help a person heal from abuse.

I do believe that “spirituality” is part of our being “human” and our spirituality is also part of our CONSCIENCE and since psychopaths have NO CONSCIENCE, no remorse and no moral compass, I think LACK OF SPIRITUALITY of any kind (unless it is faked in order to manipulate others) is a component of psychopathy. BTW not believing in a higher power of any kind does not mean you cannot be “spiritual.”

But I am done with this thread, I think it will ultimately lead to offenses and injured feelings, the way the very similar one about “Jesus was a Narcissist” By Dr. Sam was offensive.

healingfast19

Thanks OxDrover!! I have truly appreciated reading your posts on other threads!

I’m new to posting any responses, but not new to the benefit of this site. Each of us has been dealing with REAL circumstances, with actual individuals who hold REAL sociopathic traits. I just would hate to see a philosophical dialogue detract away from the reality that each of us is living right now. We’ve been living in a twisted reality for so long, trips to the land of “what if” are something we can ill afford right now.

And in reallity, the coin could easily be flipped. I’m not saying this is the case, I’m just posing this for argument’s sake: “How do we know that those who post such questions/responses aren’t themselves guilty of sociopathic tendencies?”

*Belittling one’s faith
*Undermining one’s spirituality
*Gaslighting – I’m concerned about you falling further prey to sociopathy through belief in God or religion, so I’m going to tear down what you believe in. Don’t you want to know the truth?
*Covertly forcing one’s opinions on others
*Not considering the negative impact one’s statements on others could be a sign of both lack of empathy and a lack of responsibility
*Manipulation

I could go on, but I’m sure my point is understood. Sounds like abuse, doesn’t it?

I so agree with you that we should not have to defend ourselves. I’m new to healing and growth in my knowledge of what the sociopath did to me. I have to be honest, when I first read the post, it took me back to being told that I was too big, that I wasn’t what he wanted, that I shouldn’t have done this and shouldn’t have done that. And now, “You believe in something that I really don’t think exists. You’re such an idiot!” Although it wasn’t said outright, that’s the sense I got from reading.

I have been so blessed to be here and have people show their struggles with the world, that I may grow. I am grateful! I am thankful! I would much rather deal with the here, now and future because I was once lost, but now I’m found!

Wini

Oxy, oh that intense experience of awakening to our spiritual self beyond the carnal boundaries of the flesh. Christianity 101 … Jesus’ spiritual teachings.

Is the glass half full? Or is the glass half empty? Your choice (free will). As my Dad used to say, there is nothing written in stone floating through the universe that says you have to have a miserable attitude going through life. It’s your life to live and you only go through it once. What’s it going to be? You can stay miserable or you can be happy.

Amen!

CAmom

Steve,

I was raised in a pretty much secular home. I say “pretty much” because my mom had been raised in a strict Lutheran home and did take me to Sunday School about 4 times as a little kid. It was fun.

I knew nothing of this wrathful God you write about. As a teenager and adult I explored various organized religions including Christianity (Catholicism), Islam and Judaism. I spent many, many hours in conversation with priests, Sufi masters, and rabbis in a few different countries. My introduction to Judaism was the most profound: I had the great good luck to be instructed (outside of a Chabad) by a descendant of the Baal Shem Tov—a wonderful Hasid who studied Torah and loved the joy found in the traditions and teachings of the Besht.

My beliefs now would be considered panentheistic.

Since I had no early experience with fearing God I have no point of reference for God as sociopath. I believe the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is a guide for early monotheists to follow–applicable and appropriate for the time it was written. I see the stories as just that–stories, parables, myths. There are many good moral teachings in the Hebrew Bible. (Not cutting all your wheat–leave some for the poor, how to treat your animals, etc)

When I read your list of the traits you attribute to God I can only think of my father, a destructive sociopath. He primed me for a sociopathic mate, not God. I learned to fear my dad, period. That’s all he wanted. Fear. Which to him meant obedience–not worship, not love, not belief in his infallibility, omnipotence or omniscience. No begging for his forgiveness, none of that. Just obedience.

When I became acquainted with the God of the Torah I had no feeling of fear—I had the opposite feeling–that of love.

My non spath ex was raised in a strict hellfire and brimstone fundamentalist Christian home, complete with tent revivals and glossolia (sp). He’s now an atheist–completely turned off by organized religion. My spath ex was raised in a secular Jewish home. He’s extremely knowledgeable about Judaism and all other religions—taught the Psychology of Religion and Comparative Religion at the college/university level.

Spath ex would actually have been better off if he had believed in a wrathful God–maybe he would have behaved BETTER if he believed in something other than himself. He has no moral compass. Nothing is off-limits. I can think of no moral or legal line he would not or has not crossed.

Perhaps a belief in a *sociopathic* God can be helpful to keep some people from acting out on their own worst impulses and thoughts. It’s not the thoughts themselves that are inherently *bad*—it’s the actions.

But to answer your question, my relationship with God, now, as an adult, has nothing to do with becoming involved with a sociopath. If anything, becoming involved with a sociopath goes against God as love can not exist in a sociopathic relationship. My relationship with the sociopathic ex in no way replicated my relationship with God.

For me, it was my relationship with my dad that primed me for a spath, not my relationship with God.

bluejay

Having had some definite spiritual experiences as a Christian, I can say that God is not a sociopath. When I read the Bible, I come away with a better understanding about the world-at-large, my own personal experiences oftentimes confirming what is in the Bible. I think sometimes that we can step into experiences that God would ultimately have us avoid (ignoring our gut responses), allowing consequences to occur, but He is there in the aftermath, helping us get to the other side, to stability, sanity, peace, wisdom, etc. Life experiences are hopefully helping me to gain a better understanding of God.

changedforever

Healingfast

Two thumbs up for you.

This is a site of learning and healing, that’s the only reason I keep on coming here for almost four years. That’s not a site for fighting or questioning other people spirituality and beliefs. Let’s keep that in mind and not change the ultimate purpose of this wonderful tool of healing created by Donna.

Thank you Donna for the Lovefraud website.

Wini

Oxy, it’s all about perceptions.

Peace.

Frank Lee Speaking

healingfast19

*Belittling one’s faith
*Undermining one’s spirituality
*Gaslighting ”“ I’m concerned about you falling further prey to sociopathy through belief in God or religion, so I’m going to tear down what you believe in. Don’t you want to know the truth?
*Covertly forcing one’s opinions on others
*Not considering the negative impact one’s statements on others could be a sign of both lack of empathy and a lack of responsibility
*Manipulation

******************************

None of this has happened on this thread thus far. You have been presented with actual historical facts which are all verifiable if you researched them – please do this rather than screaming “sociopath!” or “gaslighting!”.

I have not see anyone on this thread deny spirituality – very much the reverse has happened in this regard. Unless you consider the bible is the only path to spirituality. In that case you are being a bigot. Sorry, but you are. There are billions of people on this world who would be “sociopaths” in your estimation in that case. Are the 10 million Hindus who gather on the banks of the Ganges every year “Gaslighting” you? Com’on now…

I think the fact this thread even got started has really boosted my opinion of Lovefraud. It is such an important topic as I feel it goes right to the heart of how easy we are to be made victims of psychoapths as the God of the bible has softened us up by getting us used to be treated this way. This is what the original intention behind his invention was all about it.

This is a very profoundly important topic and should be kept going.

Wini

Again Frank Lee, a group of people can look at the same view and all have different perceptions.

changedforever

The ultimate purpose of Lovefraud website is to deal with the SOCIOPATHS in the real world with flesh and bones, not the “ones” in the spiritual or invisible world. Most of the people who come here were profoundly affected by the evilness of real sociopaths who are leaving among us. Let’s not forget it…Who really cares about the ones “SP” that we can’t see.

erin1972

I have to go on record to say that this was the most ridiculous article that I ever read on here and I find it offensive. I also think that every single thing that comes out of Frank Lee’s mouth-particularly on this subject are the most dumb-ass statements I have ever read.

This site has really started to suck since he came on here and he gives me bad FREAKIN vibes. I don’t appreciate coming here to heal with others who have had my experiences to have some guy come on here and stir up shit all the time. I am SERIOUSLY thinking very hard about how much I want to continue on this blog!!!

Oxy, ErinB, Hens, One_step-I really love you guys and there are some other good people on here as well, but I am now getting angry almost everytime I log in.

FightAnotherDay

I am not going to read this one.

I have to pick my battles and my stressors.

What I can say is, although I have strong Christian beliefs, I don’t try to impose my beliefs on others, and I don’t think anyone here has felt that I have, nor do I feel any one here has belittled my beliefs or tried to impose their own beliefs on me.

This has been a good site, and one of the most important things is that, because we CAN feel safe sharing our beliefs that we can seek out others with similar beliefs to bond with. It strengthens the Lovefraud “Tribe”, if you will.

FightAnotherDay

Oh, and might I add, that many of us here are dealing with SO much in the REAL world right now, that we don’t need any animosity here.

Wini

FightAnotherDay, as a Christian, I love the spiritual teachings of Jesus. I also believe that it is the first book of psychology, explaining every type of personality life has to offer. I see similarities in Freud’s writing versus what is in the Torah, or in our case, the Old Testament.

It is my opinion, many writings over the year are a direct rip off of the Bible.

I would rather go directly to the source and pick up the Bible and compare what other writers have stolen from His word.

Peace.

erin1972

Hens-I am so with you on that my friend. I may just have to skip over certain people’s posts. I think Oxy has run off for the evening.

super chic

“But, of course, I’m describing the Judeo-Christian God.”

No, you are not!!! There are many in the Bible who did not heed God’s word, and he showed them mercy, did you not read the book before you wrote your review? No mention of God’s love or grace. Amazing.

GettingIt

“DO NOT CREATE A GOD IN ONE”S IMAGE. THERE IS ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD”.
I did worship the evil one. I remember wondering how come we started out both being so spiritual and I became UN-able to connect with GOD for awhile. It is only with time that I realized, that my P took the place of emotional comfort for me. Enough to push aside my prior relationships, my beliefs and my spirituality. Why seek some UNKNOWN if he was there, loving, kind, GOD-like. It was years later that I realized all these were methods of control. Yes, I dared to create and believe a false profit. If you will, God is all you all had said. One and Only. It is the devil that had always tried for God’s throne. it figures then, the good old truth: God is one. Anything pretending to be is an Antichrist.
How is that for logic?
Love you all!

SageeGirl
breckgirl

WOW…
I haven’t been reading enough here lately obviously…
Shabby-BRAVO…Wini, Oxy, Healing Fast thank you!!!

I majored in Religious History with an emphasis on early Christianity and how it developed. I went to a world famous university with an amazing library full of rare and original source documents. Whether you believe Jesus was simply a carpenter, a holy man and wise teacher or the Son of God – the fact is He existed. There is too much irrefutable data. There is also much data that verifies many of the events told in the Bible.

I agree very much Healing Fast – when it comes to matters of spirituality I believe those that would force their view and denigrate others – those that claim some intellectual superiority are acting in a manner reminiscent of our S/N/P’s- Since this was my area of concentration / study under some world renown researchers I can in fact say without hesitation that there has been quite a bit of nonsense posted here regarding Christianity – and the most important point is to differentiate between that which is human error and that which is divine for oneself.

All religions have to one degree or another hangers on who have used the language of God/Nirvana/Dharma to manipulate and abuse others – to grow their own power. This happens in politics, large corporations and yes religious institutions.

None of that has any bearing on the Truth which is unchanging and constant – when you divorce yourself from that which is being crammed down your throats whether it is God as someone else understands God or athieism (I so get it Oxy!) one can find God.

The fulfillment of God’s laws is love. We do not achieve grace or redemption by following the letter of the law – that is Old Testament, (which is what it seems you have described Steve…) the New Testament reveals that it is by faith, NOT WORKS, that we are redeemed. That loving God and our neighbors as ourselves are the two greatest commandments.

I could go on but won’t. I think everyone here gets it. I believe that promotion of my ideas will do nothing for anyone else and may in fact drive them away from discovering God. It is by demonstrating through how I live my life that others may come to know God themselves.

Edited to add this – (a huge digression for some of you but it actually has a point)… The same can be said of the whole Global Warming shenanigans – (sorry for those of you still believing in this stuff bear with me here for a second…)
The fact is that our government and big business and high finance act in collusion with each other – they find some unsolvable problem and proceed with commissions and studies (which have been proven to be faked ) to try and control the rest of us and tax and fee us to death for their own benefit. This is sociopathy writ large. It is sickening and it is destroying the world. The MSM colludes as well because they are owned by the same large multinational companies that benefit from scaring the public with wars and faked science… Instead of solving real problems that have workable solutions they focus our attention elsewhere and it is just the same as when your N/S/P diverts your attention from something they have done by accusing you of something else completely random of which you are innocent. BTW – If you own a large dog – the carbon footprint of that dog is far greater than a super sized SUV and – well I digress but the research debunking it is available to anyone that wants to see it. The same goes for the financial crisis – look at what happened in the early 1920’s – one of the worst depressions ever – but we were out of it in no time – because the President at the time understood CUTTING spending and lowering taxes is how you solve a financial problem… The current administration is full of narcissists – nothing worse than a do gooder who knows how you should live your life and wants to enact laws to change how you behave – ugh.

Elizabeth Conley

Goodbye.

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Some of the most personal and potentially difficult things to discus are religion/ spirituality. it is intimate and personal and one of the three things that ‘you are never supposed to discuss at a dinner party.’ 😉 there are reasons for that.

religion is not only intensely personal/ intimate, but it is also political. what we say we believe ties us to countries, tribes, culture…and all of these things are political. we are often so ‘in’ these things that we have no air or space within which to view ourselves our beliefs or the context for them.

i understand steve’s line of questioning as addressing a patriarchal/ hierarchical system of religion – a system that says ‘do not question, do obey, and watch it, because you can be cast out.’ this model exists in many of our societies in ALL sectors of our lives, not just religion. i see the fear it generates alive and well in me.

if this is not your understanding of god, then no matter. dismiss it. But I would posit that it has been the understanding of enough people over a long enough period that this system of fear is ingrained in our secular societies, and in many of the churches of the world.

re Buddhism – many atrocities committed by sectarian violence. the animosity continues to this day. and their are hierarchical systems well in place there also. also much potential for abuse by unscrupulous teachers – for example, within the Tibetan Vajrayana system the connection to the teacher is exceedingly important. it is also a system that houses many ‘crazy yogi’ teachers – people who will act in wild ways to help others reach enlightenment. how exactly do you tell, within this system if the behavior of the teacher is positive to you or negative? not so easy for sure.

to me, this article is about the whole question of familial/cultural and religious models in childhood and how they form the trauma bonds that set us up for ppaths. how does one learn to use there good sense when they have been taught from early years to ignore there good sense?

Sadly, I don’t know anyone who is Christian, who had a Christian upbringing that nurtured them – they have all had to work hard to claim a loving god for themselves, have grown and nurtured those relationships as adults.

Dani S

There is only one belief for me on this site! and that is to heal from the spath that has profoundly effected our lives today. It saddens me that we come here to heal, not get into a bitter debate that has been raging for thousands of years. People’s religious belief should never be justified and fought for on this site. It is obvious that there are many religious people on this site and many that are not and I would never offend any of them with what ever it is they have in there life and there beliefs. To me LF is a place of calm and reason…

I just don’t like seeing bloggers that were once helping one another now upset with one another, it is certainly not the place for this kind of debate being such a sensitive subject for many!

super chic

OK, I’ll go along with that!

purewaters3

I don’t have any problems with the old text God. He was strict, but from what I’ve read, there were spritual reasons for his wrath.

Thank goodness for Jesus. His grace protects us from those circumstances.

But, I personally have no issues accepting right and wrong, black and white terms of thinking regarding the spirit and our actions.

My God is not a sociopath. His way is truly the right way.

ErinBrock

🙂

healingfast19

Wow. A flame was thrown my way. At one point, I would have felt the need to defend myself vigorously. But now, I can easily step aside, averting a ploy to become engaged in a public tit–for-tat. I have this site to thank for my strength. I see the signs. I see the wise admonitions from those who are lovefraud vets that we are not always amongst friends. I feel something in my gut. Unlike in the past, today those things I will not ignore. Rather than becoming engulfed in the flames, I step aside. Not out of cowardice, just the opposite. Out of the strength to take responsibility for guarding the precious moments of life that we can never get back away from time, spirit and energy vultures. I’ve done that one too many times. Not this time!

I see the beauty of No Contact. I equate that with No Response when online. It’s just as powerful. I’m feeling darn tootin good right now! I am choosing to focus on my path of healing, being careful of who I select to walk this path with me.

Thanks to all of those who have provided life-affirming, considerate, loving, empathetic, caring, kind, healing and supportive comments with such wisdom and grace regardless of your creed, your class or your color.

kim frederick

I personally applaud, you, Steve. I think your musings are incredibly astute, and pertinant to our purposes here. I donot think you meant to offend anyones sensibbilities, but to openup a dialouge.

I have enjoyed reading the thread, and pondering for myself whatto believe.

Frank Lee, I must say, I tend to agree with you on this one, and hope you’re not still hiding behind the sofa…very interesting.

Was it CG Jung who said,”evil is always inevitably elsewhere”.
I paraphrase.

Open-mindedness is key. Always remain teachable.

It was perhaps three weeks ago, when one of our more religious bloggers stated that it was okay to ask Jesus, (or was it God?) for revenge on our enemys, or those that had wronged us in some way. Wow.

I am at a point in my life where hind-sight is 20/20. I am swallowing some hard truths about myself…my choices, my life-style, my losses, my failures….and I have been RIGHTIOUSLY angry at others (spaths, I think), but I have hated that ugliness in myself, and prayed and prayed for help in forgiving….I am led to the idea of 100% accountability.

Praying to MY GOD for revenge is ignorant. Just my opinion.
That is not to say that I don’t tell him the truth about how I feel, and how injust it all seemed….sometimes I rage, and ask why? Sometimes I’m not sure I believe at all…and I share that with God, too.

Anyway, my computer crashed, and have limited opportunity to come, read and share, but I miss you all, and again, thought the thread was great.

EB, 🙂 back atcha!

ErinBrock

healingfast:
And you used that flame to light your candle for a calm evening! GOOD for you!
It’s pretty clear the peeps who come on Lf and cause trouble, throw flames, gaslight and are downright nasty! you’ve got to question their motives and think how lonely and aweful their life must be, that they need to come here for jolly’s.
If you read back their posts…..they are always contradicting topics and thier ‘beleifs’ and then attacking others, either outright or passive aggressively.
Pay no mind……
But…..such as life…..and here as in the ‘real world’…..we have a choice NOT to continue any dialogue.
There are predators and sewer dwellers here just like there are in ‘real life’. They can’t hide their stink with patchuli oil…..the stench comes through.

Good for you! Tha’ts really all I wanted to say!

ErinBrock

KIMMY!!!!!!
Dang girl……don’t stay gone so long……the nights are not the same withoutcha!
How are YOU?

Miss you darlen!!

BIG
XXXXX and OOOO’s to you!

kim frederick

I love pattoilli oil! Remindsd meof my hippy days, but Sandle-wood is even better.

ErinBrock

YUCK!

It reminds me of a skank friend of spaths who would come over and sit on my leather couch…..and when I’d come home I’d say ……oh…xxx was here today? Spath would look at me like I was a psychic…..and say….no he wasn’t….i’d say yes he was……and he sat right HERE onthe couch.
It’d freak spath out…….
I would comment each time i knew xx was over…..
He’d never tell me he had xx over…..so I just mind fucked him with my ‘knowledge’…….what was really his scent!

🙂

xx used it to avoid showering. YUCK!

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