I’ve been thinking lately about God, assuming He exists. Mainly, I’ve been thinking about the Judeo-Christian biblical conception of God, and asking myself, crazy as this sounds, if He exists, Is God a sociopath?
I pose this question seriously, and apologize in advance for offending anyone by probing this idea. But consider:
You are expected to worship Him.
You are expected to acknowledge His perfection.
You are expected to live by His standards.
You are expected to fear His Judgement.
You are expected to please, not disappoint Him.
You are expected to do penance when you’ve strayed from His rules.
You are expected to be in awe of, and fear, His omniscience.
You are expected to be in awe of, and fear, His omnipotence.
You are expected to prize His love, and fear His wrath.
You are expected to seek, and follow, His guidance.
When He feels unheeded, He licenses Himself to unleash cruel, violent, devastating rages (see the Flood, among countless other examples).
He is a punisher.
He is perfect.
He has no guilt; yet He instills guilt.
He “made,” and he “works,” the world and universe from “above,” sitting in Judgement of all who deviate from Him.
He is infallible.
He is unaccountable.
He is callous—a cause of, and silent witness to, untold violence and suffering in the history of humanity.
He is “entitled—”to judge, and punish, as He likes.
He is controlling to a highly pathological degree, for all the reasons stated above.
He is merciful, so long as you heed Him. Otherwise, He can be merciless.
He expects to be idealized and treated like a God.
He rages, and inflicts the cruelest of punishments, when He feels defied.
His word is the bible.
Now you tell me: If I were describing a human being in these terms, what conclusion would you draw? I suspect, if you weren’t feeling defensive, that you’d conclude that we’re talking about someone with a case of seriously malignant narcissism edging, perhaps, into the realm of sociopathy?
But, of course, I’m describing the Judeo-Christian God.
Think about this: from the earliest age, this is your almighty Father figure. You are taught to worship Him, seek His love, His mercy, accept His perfection and infallibility.
You are taught that His word is final; His wrath is justified; to feel shame before His eyes.
You are taught to have to work hard to earn your way back into His good graces, and to be grateful for His forgiveness.
His judgement is final, and even terrifying.
Now if this is the Father figure we’ve been raised to heed and idealize from birth, is it not fair to wonder how much this relationship—with God—might predispose us to end up with a sociopath?
Does one’s adult relationship with a sociopath not replicate, in certain ways, one’s relationship with God?
I pose this as food for thought, nothing else. But I will follow-up this post in the next several weeks, to further flesh out my thoughts, factoring in, as well, your initial feedback.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Take Steve’s list ad add:
“wears his trousers up around his nipples” and you have this guy:
http://nessymon.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/simon_cowell.jpg
I only half jokingly say this as we can see how in this crazy age of Celeb idolatry the same old concept remains highly flexible and adapable to the lords of the new church.
Steve, This article is almost a complete restatement of the one written by”Doctor” Sam Vaknin titled “Jesus was A Narcississt” in 2007.
I was taught to be terrified of this “angry god” by my maternal DNA donor and was “scared chitless” of burning in hell forever because of not being PERFECT enough to meet the demands of this “angry god.” Personally, now, I see this as emotional abuse of a child, as well as spiritual abuse of a child.
I do believe that man (universal) has a spiritual component, and is almost programmed to believe in a “higher power.” How and when this belief is presented to a child (or adult) for that matter and in what vein, either as a loving, protective spirit or as a vengeful, hateful angry supreme being that is more intent on punishing you than helping you.
Over all, the Bible, IN MY OPINION, presents God as a “father” figure. Fathers in that time and culture literally had a life and death control over their children. However, they also had a great love for their children and did their best as of us today do to bring their children up to a happy and productive and wise adulthood under the rules of the Law of Moses (old Testament) which brought the ex-slaves into a group of people with laws and some form of civilization.
The New Testament (literally the new laws) of Jesus with the Christian attitude of “LOVE your neighbor as yourself,” and “the man who has lusted after the woman in h is heart has already committed adultery” In other words, “as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.”
The old law of Moses was just to control your behavior, it didn’t matter what you believed as long as you ACTED appropriately. However with the law of Christ, the final acts, how you FEEL and THINK and therefore behave, is what is important.
BELIEVING is important to the Christian religion, and LOVING (being kind to) others, is necessary, but no where does Christianity demand that you allow yourself to be abused, as many have contended that women must “obey your husband” etc. even if there is abuse there.
Few people I think actually acheive a Christ-like attitude of service and love for others. Though there are many people who pretend to for various self-serving reasons, but those that are truly Christ-like are quite busy serving and doing good for others. NO Narcissist or psychopath would willing go to the Crucifiction –“no greater love hath a man than he would lay it down for his friend.”
Ox, there is no historical proof at all that Jesus was ever crucified. The Romans kept detailed accounts of everything right down to the relining of the brick in the walls of the sewars under the city the weekend of Jewish uprising. They is no record of Barabas or Jesus or a small revolt. There is one document which talks of a Jewish Massiah who was crucified in 33 AD in the city. But the term “Massiah” in the Roman context has the same meaning a Sadu in Hindi in that it means Holy Man or Teacher.
I personally do think that Jesus Christ was a real person. But that’s it. Just a man who was some kind of player at the time.
The story of Jesus dying for our sins were all from the Saint Paul’s missions. Read up on the history of the Gnostics too. To make statement of Jesus died on the Cross is just repeating something which has no basis in fact. Sorry that’s just how it is.
This notion of “Belief” and “Faith” is a tricky path to go down. As it is not about the devotee’s sense of “knowing”, but more about “you should accept what I am telling you…you DO believe me right?…I said RIGHT!”
Isn’t that how sociopath’s gaslight us? By playing on our belief they are helping us and not destroying us. All of us are on this group are here because we all had a “belief” in a sociopath at some stage.
I will leave this conversation now, but I would implore people to research all the points I have made. Study, research and indulge blasphemy. Ask yourself do your really believe or are you just brainwashed? Is there a path to spiritual fullfilment without the need for a Bible, Talmud, Koran or Bhagavad Gita? Can I attain inner peace without signing up for the plan and instead find my own path by diping into the vast font of spiritual teachings and taking what I need to help me on the way?
Take it from me I have looked at it all (what’s the point otherwise…) and came to the conclusion that the only place god can reside is inside all of us. The concept of someone else dying for my sins is offensive and creates this “hey, you own me now!” guilt trip. Original Sin was imposed on me. I did not commit it, nor do I need anyone to die for it. Religion is a gigantic con job which builds a wall between people and their spirituality.
There are numerous dieties who were crucified for our sins. Here is one of them:
http://www.atheistview.com/images/dionysus_on_cross.gif
That is not Jesus. That is Dionysus also known as Bacchus the God of Wine which is were this became applied to the story of Jesus and the miracle of turning water into wine.
Now consider consider the following:
Adonis born pre 2000 BC of virgin Astarte, for whom the spring festival of rebirth, Eastros was named, called both God the Father and Son, Crucified to save mankind and then resurrected.
Horus born 1550 BC of virgin Isis (Egyptian name for Astarte) received gifts from 3 kings, was crucified on cross, many other similarities to Jesus story.
Krishna born 1200 BC of virgin Devake, (angelic voice announced his birth to her) in a cave, (early Christian writings claimed Jesus born in cave, not manger) heralded by a bright star, while foster father in city to pay taxes, evil king Kansa tried to kill savior by ordering slaughter of all male children, visited by wise men with gifts, many sayings and teachings similar or identical to Jesus’ teachings, performed many miracles and was crucified.
Indra born 725 BC of virgin, walked on water, other miracles, similar teachings, crucified-nailed to cross.
Buddha born of virgin Maya, via descent of Holy Ghost upon her, performed miracles, was crucified, went to Hades for 3 days, then ascended to Heaven.
Mithra born of virgin 600 BC, Dec 25, born in a cave, magi brought gifts, shepherds worshipped, had 12 disciples, died on cross to atone for mankind’s sins, ascended to heaven at spring equinox (Eastros). Held last supper with his 12, celebrated a type of Eucharist with wafers marked with a cross.
Quirinius, born of a virgin in 506 BC, crucified by King Amulius, whole earth covered in darkness, other parallels.
Attis, born of virgin Nana 200 BC, hanged on tree, resurrected, called Father God, died as atonement of sins, followers celebrated his resurrection on Eastros by parading in streets carrying small decorated pine trees and exchanging gifts.
There are 20 crucified savior/god/resurection myths from the Middle East which predate Jesus and all incorporate several similarities found in the story of Jesus.
steve,
excellent post. i’ve been thinking a lot about god lately, too, and have decided — for now — that there is no god. not only for the reasons you state in your post, but also because while we all have free will, if we were truly ‘god’s children’ we wouldn’t choose the most depraved paths as so many do. we wouldn’t have taken a pristine earth and plundered it to death. etc. etc.
certainly, you nailed the judeo-christian god … as he was introduced to me at a young age through catholic religious instruction. while i dismantled my connection to catholicism (and that dude in the sky) long ago, i still had an issue with even spirituality which still places the blame for failure on the recipient of the punishment; ‘if you just pray positively,’ ‘if you just affirm your good’, if you just … whatever … then it will all work out. i’ve decided it’s all a crutch. we have free will, and we all learn hard lessons. whether you believe in god or not never insulates you from harm, or pain, or sociopaths, or illness, etc. seems to me that belief in god always forces one to be something they are not, for better or worse. and those that could use that crutch to be better people, don’t care anyway!
your post certainly describes a sociopathic figure, and i’m sure that part of my (and our) desire to ‘please’ this type — from dad on down — had something to do with the notion of the ‘all-knowing punisher’ watching over at all times. it’s also, i believe, what made me so giving and willing to please male figures…at almost any cost. gross!
jesus, on the other hand, was hardly like this. his life was fraught with hardship and failure and wrath and goodness … like all other humans. what i appreciate about christ was that he called out the ‘bad’ people, and exposed them for what they are. so, i think i’ll keep god out of it, and follow jesus … not as a ‘god’, but as a outer of sociopaths!
two years NC has taught me many things. #1 … no man above me. #2 … no one above me. not even god. after freaking out about this for a week or two (“what am i supposed to believe in NOW!?”), i’ve permanently ended my search for salvation outside myself and decided, i’m just going to believe in ME … wholeheartedly … just like i always wanted to believe in a god, and all the sordid, lying, using men in my life. it’s working better than religion or love for men ever did.
hallelujah, and towanda!
Frank lee speaking,
I will have my spiritual beliefs based on my own interpretation of history and of what the Bible is or is not. My egg donor tried to cram her sociopathic god down my throat before I went to grade school, but I no longer buy hers or anyone else’s dogma but rather seek and validate my own answers that are valid for MYSELF. I don’t try to convert you to believe, and there is no way you can shake my FAITH. Because faith is belief without “proof.” And FAITH IS OKAY for me, and if you choose to NOT have faith in anything, that is your right.
I don’t condemn anyone to hell olr burn anyone at the stake because they don’t believe the way I do. Over the thousands of years of diffrerent beliefs, includingt Christianity, hundreds of thousands, millions, of people have been literally burned at the stake, or stoned, or gassed for not “believing” the way others thought they should. People are DYING today (9/11) for the fact that they don’t believe the way some fundamentalist group of Muslims do. I am sure we all had ancestors who died for their religous beliefs, and I am as sure that we all also had ancestors who LIT THE FIRES that burned them at the stake.
People do all kinds of awful things to each other in the name of RELIGION. I agree with that statement. But at the same time, people who TRULY embrace SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS OF MOST RELIGIONS are not among those who are abusing others, killing others, or burning anyone at the stake in the name of their god.
Peace.
People do all kinds of awful things to each other in the name of RELIGION. I agree with that statement. But at the same time, people who TRULY embrace SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS OF MOST RELIGIONS are not among those who are abusing others, killing others, or burning anyone at the stake in the name of their god.
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Ox, I agree. But humans do this stuff without the “Holy” books anyways. I accept fully there are lots of priests, nuns, rabbis and imans who do wonderful charity work around the world. But if they were born into a culture without a religion they would be still doing this because they have a heart of love and goodness.
I have been all over the world and met people from all ethnic groups and 90% of the people I meet are kind, decent folk who just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace. That’s because they are all true manifestations of “the God” in all of us.
If you were to ask me the main difference between a sociopath and a normal human I would instantly say there is no high frequency vibrational energy in them and they are organic robots without a soul. The soul has nothing to do with religion. It’s what we all are when you peel back the ego – in sociopaths there is only the ego.
Then, look at other religions like Buddhism, which predates Christianity. I’m not an expert in it, but my understanding is that Buddhism has none of the concepts you’ve listed above.
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Yikes I can’t get out of this conversation!
Donna, the issue I have with Buddhism is that ultimately it is about the destruction of the self. I can’t agree with this. My soul did not manifest in this universe for me to destroy it. There is no evolution in this.
Another thing, is that Buddhism is ravaged with just as much sectarianism and political violence as any other religion. Some shocking genocides have been committed by Buddhists. Look at the Cambodian genocide for starters. As much as they try to claim that it was not organised by Buddhists, or that it was “not proper Buddists who did it” – the fact remains the psychological engine behind it was just like the Chrstian Crusades.
Steve, while I appreciate thought-provoking dialogue, I believe your personal belief system has colored the traits that you have attributed to God. I believe if we are truly seeking to ascertain whether or not God is a sociopath, a more objective standard should be used on which to base our findings. When we come to conclusions based on our personal views, feelings or beliefs, our perceptions about someone or something can be drastically different from realilty and, in some cases, down right wrong.
Thus, the objective standard in determining whether or not God is a sociopath must exist outside of your own thoughts, your own interpretation to ensure that the answers or results you are seeking aren’t biased or tainted.
When I view Dr. Robert Hare’s Symptoms they are stated aside from personal opinion. The symptoms to diagnose a sociopath include a listing of interpersonal traits. We know, through much research and certainly can be validated by those of us who have had contact with sociopaths, that for many of them. They save many of their sadistic behaviors for those who are truly intimate with them, while at the same time appearing in public as a saint. So if you don’t have intimate knowledge of God or even believe that God’s exists, then how can anyone really make an proper assessment on whether or not God is a sociopath in terms of His behavior with them in their life?
In order to make a diagnosis, you would have to rely on secondary diagnoses, rather than your own experiences or proof. Dr. Hare himself states “a diagnosis of psychopathy is made only when there is solid evidence that the individual matches the complete picture-that is, has most of the above symptoms.”
My response is concerned with the construct of your argument as well as the religious implications. This site has been so helpful to me and thousands of others, some who believe in God and others who may not. The one thing I would hate to see is that this thread is approached in the manner of an anti-God or anti-spirituality campaign. I see the language in some responses that belittles the beliefs of others. Is this helpful or hurtful?
Does the good outweigh the potential harm of your question?
Healing fast,
Thank you for your very rational and reasonable response to this thread.
No one should have to defend, or to feel defensive about, their spiritual beliefs–especially on a site that is intended to help a person heal from abuse.
I do believe that “spirituality” is part of our being “human” and our spirituality is also part of our CONSCIENCE and since psychopaths have NO CONSCIENCE, no remorse and no moral compass, I think LACK OF SPIRITUALITY of any kind (unless it is faked in order to manipulate others) is a component of psychopathy. BTW not believing in a higher power of any kind does not mean you cannot be “spiritual.”
But I am done with this thread, I think it will ultimately lead to offenses and injured feelings, the way the very similar one about “Jesus was a Narcissist” By Dr. Sam was offensive.