This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Psyche:(
I’m sending you a hug too.
I hear you when you say that even though you are out of the problem, it continues to have a life of it’s own.
Yeah, without even speaking to ED she continues to get a LOT of milage out of the fact that ‘her daughter is ‘mentally i’ll’, she has ‘lost her grandson’ (I’ll never let her NEAR him – my job is to protect him, I learnt my lesson the hard way) aand on and on …. My Niece continues to get milage out of how badly she was treated here with me, how it was so tough for her when I went into a mental home (Ididnt)… and new meat fall for it. Sigh.
It has insensed me that I am being used in this way… so now I dont want to hear/ read or know about it! I know it’s BS, the people who know me know it’s BS. It’s BS!
and there really IS NOTHING you can DO…. except trust that you will not be the last or only on to cotton on to them, that you are lucky to be OUT, that most people spend far more time worrying about their own lives than wether or not you have been ‘mean’ to A,B,or C according to D, that they will ALWAYS show themselves up for what they are with others eventually, those who are buying into their crap are being hoodwinked …
AND where you belong? You belong right where you are. Safe. with YOU.
Things WILL be brighter later.
xxxxxx
This article gave me pause, how do we know if someone is just going through the motions or is invested in the process? If they are finally validating you or are just pretending because they don’t want to lose the look of the relationship?
If you see them fake crying, does it mean they aren’t invested? Or are they trying to feel these deep feelings that have escaped them for so long?
I know that my husband has a void in him that he fills up with external stimuli. I told him that he had a hole in him and he said “don’t analyze me, and if there is a hole you can fill it up”. Do I take this as he is so narcisstic that he can’t invest in this process? Everything he does now is trying to make me happy, but I believe that it is false. Am I too judgemental, not giving him more of an opportunity to heal?
After reading about narcissists being able to start validating their partners, I’m again left in doubt. Is mine making the effort or just going through the motions? Clearly I have been manipulated in the past and don’t want to go through that again. The main question is, how do I know if the change is real or fabricated?
Hi blueskies,
thank you for understanding. it’s a real comfort simply to be understood and validated.
getting mileage out of the fact that we left them (our abusers) is a great phrase, that’s exactly what they do. cry me a river. my mother does this, and my relatives who know she abused me, either stay silent, or play into it. usually they play into it. it’s how the abusers to get the clueless people of ‘the middle ground’, namely the ones who don’t get what’s going on, to betray us that really drives those knives into our backs. because of this, i had to cut ties with anyone who has ties to the Ns and Spaths. That’s a LOT of tie cutting. Mostly I see my life in shreds now.
i think i’m just upset because circumstances have come up that are forcing me to axe the three last professional relationships that i had hoped would not be hopelessly poisoned — they have been poisoned now too. i had hoped something could go right, and it didn’t. am feeling very disappointed and hurt. that’ll teach me to hope for anything other than having the ability to be strong and true in what i believe, do and say.
i hope that things will seem brighter soon, thank you for the encouragements!
hugs to you too, Psyche
Hopeforjoy,
a quick msg. before I sign off for the weekend. there are some things an N can’t fake. i made a list of things i’ve noticed elsewhere on the site, but one sure test is whether or not they can apologize the right way for any wrong they may have done. I think Steve has a great article archived on this site about what a real apology consists of. A narcissist would be incapable of making an apology that required sincere admission of wrongdoing, for example. they would not be able to name the behavior that was wrong, and own up to it, let alone actually correct it. if they do say they’ll correct something, and don’t, well, that’s just another sign.
anyway, that’s just one way to find out. and it’s just my opinion, but i believe if you want to know if someone’s salvageable or not, you have to look at the very few things that narcissists are not capable of faking (like a real apology – they can’t do it when a situation calls for it). Knowing what they can’t fake is key (for me), because they can fake just about anything. They’re the best fakers in the world.
take care,
Psyche
hope4joy – i am so glad you wrote this: If you see them fake crying, does it mean they aren’t invested? Or are they trying to feel these deep feelings that have escaped them for so long?’
it is a clear illustration of your confusion. I understand that you are trying really hard to understand your husband and what that means to your marriage – but, again it comes down to how you feel, where your energy is going and what your like looks like. Happy within the marriage? Does it give you shelter from the storm of life, or is IT the storm of life? Does your marriage pull you up in life, support your goals and values, make you feel proud of what the two of you are togehter and bring to the world as a couple?
one of my ppath’s other dupes remarked that she didn’t think the ppath could be a ppath becuase of the buckets of tears she could cry for a made up person (one that the ppath made up to dupe the dupe with. man, this con is complex!). she seemingly knows nothing about s/p/n – which makes me really concerned for her in the legal process and doubt the value of the therapy she’s had since the ppath – no one but me mention this possibility????…anyhoo, i digress – thing is my ppath cried BUCKETS of tears – she WASN’T REACHING FOR ENGAGING WITH HER HERETOFORE STUNTED FEELINGS, SHE WAS MANIPULATING ME AND OTHERS. Don’t trust it hope4 – from what you have said, and the fact that you ARE here, tells me that you will never find YOUR JOY within that marriage, with that man.
xo one step
Hopeforjoy {{{hugs}}} YOU can fill up the void??? AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, what an ugly ploy!!!! It’s the old “yeah-you-can-make-me-complete-but-only-when-I-say-so” tactic. How about filling one’s self up with one’s Self? He’s passing on the responsibility for living life to you, Hope. Do you really feel that you are responsible to make him “complete” and to “fill the void?” Do you honestly accept that responsibility? Do you even WANT that kind of responsibility?
I am not bound by someone else’s expectations to fill any void in their life. If we work well together, then that’s grand, but I must work well on my own, first. And, I will not work on someone else’s behalf. That goes for friends, relatives, etc.
As far as putting on a crying act to “prove” that they’re invested – it’s an ACT. All of it. From pretending to care to the gaslighting – it’s all a performance. If they “act” in a manner that suggests “normal,” then they will be perceived as “normal.” We know when it’s affected and fabricated because our GUT tells us that they are not, under any circumstances, sincere in their apologies or their expressions of “love.” They do not prove that they are changing by letting their actions do the talking. They crow long and loud about their “accomplishments” and good deeds with never an ounce of SELFLESSNESS to be presented.
The h-spath sounds to be far more than a nacissist and more likely to fit the profile of a sociopath. Meaning that the h-spath doesn’t CARE except when it comes to losing his supply. Supply defined is something disposable. Water supply. Drug supply. Supply of grain. All of these things are CONSUMED and whatever is not consumed is discarded. Dishwater is discarded. Used needles are evntually discarded. Grain is digested and the unabsorbed nutrients and fiber are discarded as waste.
To the h-spath, Hopeforjoy is something to be used when needed, and discarded all other times. Hopeforjoy isn’t even given the benefit of being viewed as another human with feelings, thoughts, dreams, plans, goals. To the h-spath, Hopeforjoy is a PRODUCT to be consumed. That’s the simplest way that I can describe how the spath views those around them.
For many long years, I sought to educate myself on spathy and WHY spaths are like they are. I believed that, if I only understood them, perhaps, I could HELP THEM – SAVE THEM – FIX THEM. Today – with sincere gratitude to this site and the members – I have replaced that need to understand with the understanding that there are no explanations. Even if I understood WHY the ex spath committed the sins that he did, it wouldn’t have changed his spots one iota. The spath son is a sociopath – no amount of knowledge, understanding, or encouragement will ever change this fact. What my thirst for understanding has taught me was that I needed to thirst to protect my Self – my soul – at all costs, and yield to the answer to “WHY?” by accepting, “Because.”
You’ve been in my thoughts, Hopeforjoy. Brightest blessings and supportive energies are with you.
One_step……..awesome post.
I think we can go on information overload at times.
And for me…..a pitfall is ‘thinking’ too much.
It becomes a wrestling match between gut and brain.
Gut will lead you in the right direction ALL of the time….the mind will lead you into confusion and paralyzation.
BALANCE and knowing YOURSELF is key.
Having been previously married to a spath, I don’t take anyone, or any circumstance, at face value anymore. I evaluate everything very carefully now. There are many genuine, caring people in the world as well as many disordered people. Look at their fruit. Really listen to what they say and how they act. Is it good or bad? I listen to my gut now. If it doesn’t feel right, then it isn’t right. I ‘m not gong to sacrifice myself for anyone ever again. Feeling like you’re losing your mind trying to understand someone who isn’t healthy…trying to make sense of their behavior but never being able to because it’s not normal. I will never go there again…ever! I will walk away. For the first time in my life, I’m listening to myself and it feels good. I choose where I’m going now and with whom.
Forgivemyself, I love your quote, “I choose where I’m going now and with whom.”