This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Psyche,
I have read your posts and what I think is that you have been through the ringer. Like many of us out there, you sound like you need a rest. Take care.
EB, that was my problem, as well – overthinking and not keeping it down to simple terms. Gut = yes. Mind = not-so-yes. 😉
hope4joy – read forgivemyself’s 120 post; it may be very useful – it’s awesome
best,
one step
EB,
I loved your post. Its is the germ of Malcom Gladwell’s book BLINK. I love his work.
There is so much we just know in a blaze – (what we call gut) and let the less acute functions of the brain override. A lot of times and we know scientifically this is true, our brains can give the answer before we can speak the questions.
For my part, GUT and the belief in what I felt landed me in bed with a SPATH. And somehow I believed enough to take on faith that he was good and true. In those days, I lived in what Eckahrdt Tolle would have called my head because I was always processing thoughts – mental noise. Now, I find a way to re integrate myself and reduce the noise to far less, to observe it and not be driven by it. But that alone isn’t enough to be better functioning. Sometimes, my fears and concerns about what to do to make the best choices next sound like they come out as obsession because I have to methodically look at the same issues over and over again from multiple perspectives to test what really makes sense. I don’t make lightning decisions right now.
Which is not to say I don’t make the same decisions over and over and try out what seems to be the real one after feeding it what I know. I am using the Ben Franklin approach a lot these days. Listing what is + and what is – on each decision, adding it all up and letting my gut weigh in on what “feels right”.
So, logic and rule have become my close companions. If it double checks logically and socially, then OK.
But to trust gut until I am sure beyond doubt that my convoluted perceptions which drill back to childhood and years of marital emotional abuse are realigned, I fear could be dangerous. It was before.
The question is, how do I know? When does the clue come? If I say there is only Now, I am looking for the most trustworthy signals from my GUT because thirst can be mistaken for hunger at the most basic level….
The approval rating of my family support system which is where the world wants to dump what is left of me to be taken care of won’t give me encouraging feedback because the surrounding I come from is diminishing- My support system tells me only what the shortfalls and less than perfections are. It torments and manipulates. My gut is twisted by fear. My gut has been driven lifelong by the unachievable desires to please and to be approved of. And by a a precipice: the fear of being alone because if I want truly to heal, then I have to distance from the abusers (hello 12 steps!) and work on a new gut.
This does not happen in the company of the people who do not encourage or lift me in any way. The ones who do mean things and call them nice or who judge me harsh and call it kind. This process calls for a new me who doesn’t live or accept the things that were true in the past.
An integrated one that accepts the best I can do in each moment, holds true to not moving toward what is fearful but away from it and find joy, love and wholeness in the divine within.
All good words. But, lets see how they play in the real world against issues like survival when that is the brick wall du jour. Yes, they heal panic and panic provokes wild decisions. Yes, they heal clinging onto the illusion of emotional connecting and bonding. Yes, these words and concepts translated into action and lifestyle deliver the results of renewed self awareness.
It is all good.
Except for the part about money not growing on trees or good lawyers and accountants working pro bono for victims who really need help coming out of these experiences. I don’t see anyone here who wouldn’t benefit from some REAL Casework. It annoys me that there is more resource for the disordered than the victims.
There are realities, therapies and philosophies and concepts that really help. What we learn about normal is an education which comes at such a cost!
Its on my mind today, how does the community of we who have been made victim recover the losses? How do we recover what it takes to be made right and level with the mainstream who never suffered what burdens we carried? How do we get the equivalent of the resources offered the disordered to help us move on because we do not typically get support from the systems we had in family or friends.
These things we see here over and over again. And the resource pool available is just waiting for our currency and there just isn’t enough until long after recovery. Yes, I appreciate that the lawyers, doctors, therapists and accountants should make a living too but when victims need help the money isn’t as often there and the rates are dear. So What the HELL is wrong with the whole system?
The disordered end up in jail with medical, roofs, food, and all they need and the victims end up here – the stories are BRUTAL and its ok with the world that things be so? E Caveat Emptor? Who is in charge? Clearly the disordered constructed that rule!
Tennessee Williams wrote about the difference between Enduring and Prevailing. We don’t have to endure being victimized. It is not OK for everyone who doesn’t want to deal with the disordered to turn them loose to prey on the next victim and the next. Letting them move on so ten new voices can turn up here next week is not acceptable. That their families don’t own them, nor anyone makes them free to prey on us.
Let history review Ronald Regan’s policies from our point of view because we have PAID out of our pockets and souls for what he convinced the country was a good thing: Let them out on the streets save money by letting somebody else pay for it – we became THEM! I think that every Republican who voted for that ought to have the privilege of one of these love affairs! And furthermore ought to have the benefit of being left high and dry by the religious organizations that a subsequent Republican (George W) promoted into care taking because WE know how rife They are with the disordered.
Although politically I disagree with abusing the Constitution (for the record)…. My point here is to look and see if I can see where it started that I became at risk and I think it was when the options for containing problems because a public policy of fiscal conservatism out weighing individual protection. I’d ask is this the blessing of that kind of reform? And who got the benefit of it?
How do we as a community find a way to lead a change in direction to not allow these to prey on our daughters or our neighbor’s? How do we protect our sons as well as the boys across they street. NO ONE deserves this. No One. How do we make a difference that matters?
It is on my mind today.
I believe it has to do with PREVAILING over our circumstances. There is I think a formula for PREVAILING….
(Knowledge + Intuition) + Strategy + (Action * infinity) = PREVAIL
It isn’t one thing, it is all the things we talk about. And we must be clear, there is a complex solution to these confusing problems.
However, the first step is recognizing when the voice inside says “HEY!! I’m not comfortable with X” No matter what that is, its a signal to FREEZE.
Who knows that better than a mule? We all have so much to learn from them because we are neither who we were nor who we will be just as a mule is neither horse nor donkey, but something greater, smarter and sleeker and stronger than its heritage on either side of its equation.
To us, to enduring long enough to PREVAIL
HEE HAW!
guys, just a post from a gutless wonder. i may have courage, but i haven’t tapped into what you guys are talking about, this mysteriously wise and reliable source that you call gut. yet i can see that you’re talking about something i wish i had.
i think what happens for some of us is that we get cut off from our feelings early on by our parents, and we get out of touch with the gut, or worse, we re-train it to tell ourselves stupid things like “everyone is good, why should you question someone without a good reason?” my gut told me how great my Spath was (or maybe it was just me not knowing how to read my gut, but same consequence).
however it happened, i got cut off from my feelings a long time ago, and had to learn to think my way through my trials. now my feelings are becoming clearer to me, but it’s going to be a while before I really get to know them, and can rely on them, the way that some of you seem to be able to.
if you feel like you have a reliable gut, it must be a wonderful thing. i hope to dig mine out from under heaps of entangling confusion, and be able to use it some day to good results. i really envy those of you who feel like they have guts they can trust. i think i trust my mind like you trust your guts, i suppose we all need to be able to trust them both at some point. that’s my goal anyway. that may be the same idea that silvermoon mentions in talking about knowledge + intuition (followed by other necessaries for prevailing).
Bluejay, thanks for your kind and considerate post. I really am feeling the damn wringer today. Going to go get a rest now, instead of just talking about it, and hope to feel sane again by Monday. Hope you have a great weekend.
Psyche
Buttons and One-step,
Listening to my gut, my intuition, has sometimes lead my astray. That is why I am a self doubter, a needer of affirmations, anwsers to questions that have no concrete anwsers. Good advice. I’m reading “The Gift of Fear” to try and hone the ‘ole intuition because the FOG has a way of intruding and leading me to doubt, to care more for a person who isn’t whole.
Silver has some wise information, we need to process all of this information and put it together. The one thing the one-stepper and Buttons know, is the gaslighting. It skews all of our intuition and the facts so we don’t know what side is up. It’s like being in a fun house and not being able to find your way out.
Buttons, your maniacle laughter made me crack up. That is what he was telling me, he thinks someone else should make him feel whole.
He thinks of himself as the most sensitive guy ever, but then when we get close to ending it, he admits that he could have been more sensitive, more affirming, more validating. It boggles the mind, completely. Leaves me thinking, what kind of game are you playing at? He believes his own game, which makes him seem sincere. He’s always asking permission to do things, telling me exactly where he’s going, saying sorry to everything, almost like begging.
Completely confuses me. I don’t believe his tears. He told me he cried when he talked to my mom and he didn’t. Twice he said, “Can you really fake crying?” Which I never came out and said, making me think he knows that it was all for show. I don’t want to believe that he could be so disordered, he’s the father of my children. When I have asked him to leave, he really digs in. “We were meant to be together forever.”
I’m musing again. Thinking aloud. This last psychologist made my doubts come back, he is trying to see both sides and right now ‘prince charming’ is working it big time.
Thanks for your advice, the fact that you have been there, you can read into things that I can’t put together.
OxDrover,
Hard to wrap my mind around this “logic”: “I just SAID IT TO HURT YOU”
As much as I want to be forgiving and understanding, I just don’t know how to respond to that.
When I insisted he move out, daughter and I helped him move some furniture, and he said to daughter, “I don’t care about anything anymore. I don’t even care about YOU!” Poor kid was devastated. Later he told her, “I didn’t mean that. I just said it to mess you up so I would HURT YOUR MOTHER.”
WTF!?
I had endless compassion and excuses for how he was upset, and how I was bad to kick him out. Uh huh, makes sense.
The twisted psychology of this is so confusing. I read that they project their anger onto other, so that it elicits the anger they themselves feel in the other’s angry reaction. It was and still is near imporrible for me to stay neutral with such people and know it’s not ME, it’s them.
Psyche,
I know what you mean, my gut isn’t trustworthy. From our family of origin, we learned how to cope in an unhealthy way. We end up constantly doubting our own experiences, being people pleasers.
When I met my now husband I thought, I’m so lucky, he’s so smart, mysterious, sexy, driven, and wants me! He pursued me hard! I felt really special, when I should have picked up on some red flags. He didn’t take any responsiblity for the break up of his first marriage, was still talking with an ex girlfriend and she was still thinking they were going out when he said he wasn’t interested in her. He manipulated me with my ex boyfriend, so I was ready to call human resources on him but he convinced me not to. All lies.
A weird thing about him, he always wanted things to be perfect. I wasn’t good at volleyball, at a company picnic, he was so mad at me. I should have seen that as a red flag. Why would he be mad? Didn’t make sense and I should have known it was weird.
My gut isn’t co-operating. I’m trying to train it, it’s easy for our childhood definitions of us to cloud our judgement, to listen my gut is going to take awhile. Using my experiences to help train my intuition, help me find some peace.
The psychologist said something about having problems in all relationships, I know this, but I don’t think I will have another relationship for a very long time. It is so damaging to love a disordered person. Lucky us, we get to carry that with us forever.
Dancing,
I have an idea for an invention. Its a gizmo. In my mind’s eye it would be about the size of a cell phone or something like that which would be easy to carry.
Every time somebody says or does the kind of thing that man said to his daughter, it would make a huge and alarming noise and the smell of cow manure would explode in a cloud of smoke to fill the air, disarm the speaker and give the carrier of the device time to get away.
I want to call it a Bullshit meter.
Tell your daughter for me ( I have a dad like this who is a lot less obvious but no less insidious) that what he said to hurt her should make her bullshit meter go off four alarms and that as much as she hurts and so do you to learn what is true now about this man, that giving up the illusions will help both of you be stronger and wiser and that NOTHING will prevent him from doing it over and over and over if she hangs around him long enough to give him the chance.
Be real with your daughter now so that you don’t FEED her to his kind later on. Its your job.
Dear psyche,
“Gut” IMHO is “intuition” and our intuition is what tells us, or a rabbit, when there is a PREDATOR in the area and we need to be cautious. Since rabbits have several things that prey on them they are pretty jittery and really LISTE3N and if any sound changes in their environment they scoot for cover. The ones who didn’t got taken out of the gene pool so their insitincts are continually genetically HONED.
Since basically the ONLY predator of humans now are OTHER HUMANS and because we are a BIT smarter than the rabbit intellectually, we have given up or fail to listenj t6o our GUT INSTINCTS about predators. Instiincts work best in a QUIET atmosphere as well. If you are always “talking” either with your mouth or inside your head, or your ears are bombarded with SOUNDS 24/7 how on earth could you even start to listen to your quiet GUT INSTINCTS, it usually doesn’t SHOUT!
I’ve been reading quite a bit lately on the VALUE OF SILENCE and SOLITUDE in which to get in touch with ourselves, with our thinking, our feelings, our INSTINCTS. Meditation can be just lying quietly or sitting quietly and thinking and listening to our thoughts and feelingn what is going on inside our minds and bodies. BEING AWARE of what is inside.
I’m fortunate that I no longer work where I am around folks all day, I live in the woods so the sounds are limited pretty much to nature or my dog backing and they know what “hush” means….so I can EASILY control my environment. and the sounds that I hear. I don’t leave a radio or TV on very much of the time, or even play music a great deal because it interfeers with my thinking and mulling. If I want music I play music and FOCUS on that music.
One of my friends when she comes to visit turns on every noise maker in the house because she “can’t stand the silence out here!” She’s a great gal but she’s not much of a deep thinkier! I’m NOW more the deep thinker type. But jI have come to VALUE my thoughts and feelings and instincts.
Over a year ago I got an INSTINCTIVE red flag that a friend of mine for4 over 20+ years, a “close friend” in fact, was feeling GREEDY in some of our bartering deals (now we are not talking hundreds o f dollars but a couple of bucks, but amount doesn’t make any difference) and I sort of back handedly confronted him about it, made him aware I was aware he was acvting greedy. And then just filed the incident away for later observation. Well a few months later, we had a deal and he BACKED OUT completely and cheated me out of $56. No big deal right? I confronted him about reniging on the deal and he immediately said “Oh, I didn’t break the deal I just CHANGED IT” DUH????? So then I confronted him again about his “changed” deal and he got huffy and started projecting all kinds of nasty name calling on me etc. and I very quietly told him to get out of my house and never darken my door again.
After 20+ years I had given him a second chance the first time, but the second time, NO CHANCE, nada, zip, zero zilch! Set a final boundary. No looking back for me, and no grieving over the lost relationship because even though I had enjoyed our antique hunting forays together and our conversations andn so on I also realized IN RETROSPECT that he had had some of these RED FLAGS there in the past that I HAD IGNORED—but the NEW AND IMPROVED OXY didn’t ignore them any more, and didn’t grieve over the “loss” of someone who wasn’t truly a friend, because REAL FRIENDS don’t treat you that way.
HOPE4JOY,
THE BIGGEST LIE IN THE WORLD
“THERE ARE TWO (VALID) SIDES TO EVERY STORY OR QUARREL”
That is so NOT TRUE but we are taught from grade school that it is “fair” to look at both sides. FARK “FAIR”!
YOU KNOW THE TRUTH, GET ANOTHER THERAPIST THAT KNOWS HIS BUTT FROM SECOND BASE.