This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Guys, somehow I “missed it” if something went on yesterday, and you guys, I would think by now I don’t “ignore” anyone or try to shut anyone out but I do try to not get into the middle of quarrels unless I think there is something I can say to sort of shut it down.l Sometimes there i s and sometimes there isn’t anything that I can see.
Joe likes blue. Sue likes read. They can’t agree so big deal, it will usually die down if not one stokes the fire and throws gasoline on it.
But that being the case, if anyone feels (or ever has or does now) that I have ignored them or been elitist or over bearing, it was never my intention.l I may boinnk yuou with a cyber skillet a time or two if I think you a re being tooo hard on yourself and I LOVE Boinking Henry (cause I’m a saddist at hear!) and he’s a good sport’! But basically I’m pretty harmless in my old age.
I realize that people are raw sometimes and are triggered by things that don’t amount to a hill of beans in the real world, but that’s part of the healing too. So in my best “mother superior voice” “Now play nice, or I’ll have to put you all in separate corners, on tip toes with your nose in chalk rings! LOL (ever done that? I think I spent half the first grade in that position! LOL ROTFLMAO and big hugs to you all!)
(((bulletproof)))- no no no, no judgment of you whatsoever. strong opinions and strong reactions are part of the landscape that we must give each other space for. when one of us has a strong reaction and opinion we must try to honor healing by not reacting to reaction.
i meant that we failed as a *community* to come together in ‘kindness, tolerance and compassion, and do our best to not take things personally’.
OxDrover
yes on occasion you try and shut a “quarrell” down, is it not NORMAL robust conversation? does it scare you? why does it have to be “shut down” what did anyone do to you that you decide to “shut it down”? it will usually die down if it’s given time and space for real expression..why do you see it as a fire? why do you see someone in disagreement as “stoking” the fires? or even worse..throwing gasolene on it…is that what I am doing now in your opinion? ……..there got it out…feels good…ah breathe….yes…so in my best bold child voice, no I won’t play “nice” what is your version of nice anyway? and just try putting me in the corner, just TRY go NEAR my nose and see what happens….. mother superior! Hah!….lol
CAmom
Thanks for your response
Yes triggers happen don’t they, the possible responses are:
Fight
Flight
Freeze
You froze, I’m fighting. Trigger for me was all the labels and psychobabble, meant no offense to Steve, who is not available for comment anymore he said:
“i will desist from further comment, going forward”
I’m sure he has a million things going on, and perhaps hasn’t time to address the issues triggered by his article.. I dont think Style1 did anything bad…just triggered with good reason, and needs containment not another experience of being dropped in mid air….when we are triggered we need to stay through THE PROCESS…be there for yourself at the end of the day…if you can do that, you will be fine.
one step
of course you/we/I will react to a reaction…stop trying to be so perfect!!!since when did any community come together in ‘kindness, tolerance and compassion’ he he…..it’s a wonderful aspiration, and one we are all in the process of IF allowed express ourselves to COMPLETION with no cut offs…react away, the silence is worse….and I needed that hug so badly thank you!
Bullet proof:)x
I missed anything that happend last night. Can I ask…what do you mean by psychobabble? I say this because I truly found this article useful to ME and my sitch. (I have found some on here not so useful)xx
Dear Bulletproof, NO, I do not think you are trying to start an argument with me, I think you are expressing your thoughts openly and assertively. And that’s okay by me.
I really don’t recall any time I have observed you needing to be “called down” by anyone.
If there are whaqt I perceive as people “gearing up” to start a fight though (and I am not speaking of respectfully disagreeing, but instead name calling and devaluing others) I will do my best to 1) ignore that person and not answer them and 2) sort of “change the subject” to something about gardening or potted plants just to kind of DIVERT a big fight. At the same time (and it always seems that this happens late at night) I also hit the report abusive comment button and give Donna a “heads up” note if it looks like there is going to be or is a “screaming match.” Donna is the one who owns this site and SHE makes the decisions on who and what are allowed to be posted her. Not me.
I really do want people on here to “Play nice” and RESPECT each other’s opinions and to not devalue. I disagree a lot of times with things people say and most of the time I don’t even mention it becfause, WTF? It isn’t important. People disagree with me lots of times and If it is important to them, I hope that they will say so without worrying about me jumping down their throats.
The only time I have ever “boinked” anyoone is in jest for them being too hard on themselves and putting themselves down. That’s kind of been a standing joke between some of old timers and some of the newer people too. I always make sure there is a LAUGH along with it so no one thinks even by accident that I would do such a comment in malice.
I’ve been on blogs where there was a LOT OF FLAMING, devaluing and ugly carp, and LF is not one of those. I don’t want it to become that way either. The diversity of people, the diversity of opinions, situations, etc. is what makes this place so healing. I don’t EVER want anyone to be drive away by anything anyone says to them, and I don’t want anyone t6o feel ignored, and that was why I started the “welcome to Love Fraud” tradition that has been going on here now for a couple of years because I know how it feels to blog on a blog and NO ONE responds to you, they just post around you and ignore you. OF all the blogs where people don’t need THAT this is THE ONE!
I’m sorry if I have offended you Bulletproof, or anyone else here. That’s not my intention at all. So if I do offend anyone you are welcome to tell me about it6 on the blog, or send a private e mail directed to me via donna and she will forward it on to me.
Shabby Shabby – You were on a role last nite. I dont know what onestep is talkin about, must of been alot of deleting going on. For the most part peeps are nice here at LF, sometimes I feel ignored but most times I have nothing important to add to the thread topic. I have been here two years and I have responded to a few posters and never a reply, so I figure ok they dont like gay men so be it, they have the right to ignore me. For some posters this seems to be their twitter page, I am guilty of that also. Speaking for myself this place keeps me grounded, I do alot of reading the newbies and it reconfirms (is that a word?) what I experienced and continue to experience. Shabby I have not seen my X in over two years, just a glimps out the window a few times when I refused to answer door. I still think of him too much, I wake up from dreaming about him and can not understand what the dream was about, only his deciet and lies are apparant. The one thing I hate is my thots of him being in a good relationship, happy and in love and successful, and here I am still putting myself back together, emotionally and financially. In the past two years I have had tornadoes and fires and floods just a few miles from me and never has he checked to see if I was ok. But I am the one who changed phone numbers, I am the one who made him leave. so tell me why should I expect him to be concerened or care? Anywho we are having a historic rain event here today 9″ in 4 hours (rain) so going to do laundry and clean house.
Dear Henry, Darlink, just hang your clothes out on the line and they can wash and dry right there! LOL
That camp ground that got the 19 peopole washed away and killed was where I used to camp. D and I were thinking about going there next march withh his Venture Scout Crew on a treck…..think we will find a different spot! Water rose 20+ feet in a matter of 1-2 hours? By the time the people realized it it was too late. Breaks my heart, little kids and grandparents gone, mother saved and her kid and husband gone.
Dug the rest of the taters yesterday and got too hot out there, heat index is over 100 here so keeping inside the house as much as I can, gonna have to bush hog the yard though—maybe will do that in September and bale it. LOL
Sometimes I dream about the P son too, Henry, and I can’t call them night mares, but I just think it is our brains cleaning out the corners. Actually think it is kind of a good thing, as long as it isn’t a night mare. The last time I dreamed about him I was SETTING BOUNDARIES with him and refusing to do something he wanted me to do. So though I didn’t like being put in that position in the dream, I held my ground even in the dream. And I think that is a GOOD thing.
BTW Henry, even if you just add a smart alec remark, you make us laugh so you keep on, sweetie, LF wouldn’t be the same without you and your weiner dogs out there! I can still see that one dog trying to drag the dead possom backwards through the doggie door! Now THAT’s FUNNY, I don’t keer who you is!
hens – I just want to say – if I have ever ignored you,(or anyone) it’s not because i dont like gay men:) Its was because I was off being bonkers somewhere else.
Henry,
I want to address the ignoring thing, I sincerely hope that you don’t feel that way all the time. I read your posts and see a caring man with a wry sense of humor who has survived a horrible experience.
In response to your being gay, I feel safer with a gay man on this site, no offense to the straight guys on LF. You aren’t going to try and give us any lines, etc. Trust right now is at an all time low. My oldest daughter is bi and most of her guy friends are gay. She is dating a nice 23 yr. old man right now and I like him a lot. My comfort level is less when she dates women, but it’s not my choice, I love her reguardless.
So in reguards to your orientation, for me, it doesn’t matter and I actually feel safer because of it. Just being honest.
I agree with you when I read the stories of other survivors, they are similar to my own and I feel validated, like it wasn’t all me. So Henry, keep driving your new truck with pride and don’t change for anybody, I like you the way you are.
Hopeforjoy – Blueskys – Ox – None of you have ignored me, this forum run’s at a different pace than most chat sites. Thank you all for making me feel welcome. Hopeforjoy – I feel safer around straight women and men than I do gay peeps. My two best friends are straight women. And I am having buyer’s remorse on that new truck ~! But it sure is pretty…