This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Bulletproof:
When people have suffered as much as those of us here on LF have, my interest is not to light fires as you so desire.
There are too many fires burning at the homefront to come to a place of healing and find the stench of burning here aswell.
Your posts have been aggressive. Re-read your recent posts and maybe you will see.
When people throw up a smokebomb…..look in the other direction…..there is usually something being buried in that opposite direction.
I hear you have an issue which seems to be about me….when in reality it could be your own issues. Bullet, I have responded to you, your welcome to go back through the posts and see them for yourself.
If what you have been writing has been directed at me, and your the one who states “say it to my face”, then I think you need to take a lesson out of your own book and quite dancing around the subject and just say it, not let others think it may be directed at them…..but directed at me.
One can express their views without raising a ruckus, and I am seeing you place more value on the ruckus, rather than expressing only your opinions.
I am not ’employed’ by LF. I do not owe it to anyone to respond to anything here. This is my choice and I do my best to respond to most and stay connected on LF. If someone has responded and I have nothing further to add, then I leave it be.
I am not superhuman, I have had several strokes, and my memory is VERY poor and I have a hard time keeping track of everyones stories, even harder when someone switches screen names.
I think you have mis judged me and let it fester, and your angry posts, cetainly do not draw me nearer.
This is where being solution based may be something to look into.
If it ain’t working for you……and it bothers you……then find a solution. THIS IS people based!
When a poster says…..EB….ya out there…..and I see this….I answer. If someone wants something directly from me….and I see it…..I answer.
If someone responds in an angry tone….I will back away. I can only assume that what I offered is not helpful to them, and maybe someone else has something more significant to thier needs.
I come to LF with the best of intentions…..and I’m sorry you feel differntly about me.
Bulletproof,
I love that people speak their mind, I love the originality of their thoughts. I really have connected to LF because of the experiences of the people touched by narcissism or sociopathy. The thing that bothers me is when there is a disagreement and it becomes personal. I know I don’t have to respond, but I’m reading everything here to help me understand my freaking situation.
Right now I’m in the thick of it and the fights make me feel bad. Just bad. Trying to understand if my husband is interested in stories about stabbings because he’s going to flip out soon? Not sure how to get him out of the house and I’m constantly in fight or flight mode. So if there are heated discussions on how to battle a spath, diagnosis and healing, I’m all for it, the other stuff is totally not healthy for me.
I know it can’t be all sunshine and roses all the time, but this is the one freaking place that has felt safe. I really, REALLY need to feel safe somewhere. And I’m not feeling sorry for myself, it’s just how it is.
So bullet, just an f.y.i. how a fellow survivior feels.
Well, you know what?? I have a new Job. I’m saying it again because I am just about to go to bed and I want everyone to know that I have a new job and I am really pleased. Its my first proper permanent contract job since the spath. Its a massive milestone for me. and tonight! I go to bed with a little more hope for myself than I did last night!:) x
Blue:
That is FANTASTIC!!! And something to hold onto…..put your best foot forward and make tomorrow a GREAT first day leading into your bright future!
DEAR BLUESKIES!!!!!
WHOOPIE!!!! TOWANDA!!!! GREAT GOING!!!!!! Hooptie do!!!! Congratulations!!!!! (((((Hugs))))))
Blueskies, I just logged on and read your posts about the new job!! I am so very happy for you! I like what you wrote… “I may be an emotional wreck by night BUT by day I can still function as a grown up clever person!!!” That pretty much sums up how I try to act fairly normal during the day!!!
Congratulations to you!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
CHic,
I read your posts from last night…..and i’m sorry I wasn’t on my usual ‘graveyard’ shift here to keep you company.
Keep your head up girl……there IS pleasure in the world…..BUT….it doesn’t come knocking us down…..we must seek.
Get your bouncy hair on…..and go get some people time in. Smile at the world and take it in.
I have family in town for a week…..with a 5 year old who’s kicking my butt!!!! He’s cute as a button…..but 5 is a busy age…questions about EVERYTHING!!!!! He got up when my kids got up for school this am…..and didn’t leave my side until their day outing and wanted auntie EB to join them at the water park…….UH, no thanks…..auntie eb is going to take a nap today!
Keep your head up Chic…….
btw…..No peas for you darlen!!!
XXOO
EB
I used to feel safe here, but it’s tricky with the established friendships happening all around you, it’s hard when you post and no one says anything back, even a few words…not that i’d want anything insincere either so I guess it’s an impossible task to help everyone….
EB
and YOU have not an aggressive bone in your body! LOL
I have quite a big fire burning at home and all I want is understanding, I place more importance on the people here, NOT the ruckus… I look beyond the ruckus to the PERSON on the other side of it…by shrinking away from legitemate anger in a fellow traveller hurts though and could send someone away in shame for being angry…
whatever… I dont feel “differently” about you…I loved you, looked up to you, thought you were fantastic but you ignored me…thats what I feel…so I just shrank away and it was either get angry or leave LF
my solution was to tell you how I felt….I’m sorry you have had several strokes and your memory is poor…maybe it’s too much too much to ask from you, and I sincerely wish you well…
Dear EB, you must have been a bad girl in another life to be afflicted with a happy healthy 5 year old that likes to get up early and go to water parks! LOL That is why God gives young kids to young women! hee hee cause they have the energy to go play with them! Maybe you can go hide under the load of towels they brought back from the water park and just lie there in the dark and escape from the “how come the sky is blue, aunty eb? How come rocks are hard, aunty EB?” huh? Huh? LOL ROTFLMAO
hens, I know exactly what you mean, I think about “him” too much myself, it’s really bothering me. I pop in and out of here a lot. Several times I have posted and not received a reply, like you said, it’s just the nature of the boad, not a “chat” room. Sometimes I will spend 20 minutes writing a reply to someone, then I think it sounds stupid and I erase it!! I am nuts.
forgivemyself, sorry I just sort of steamrolled past your comment. Everything you wrote is so true, it is tough, really tough, it is encouraging to read how you did this for yourself. The NC has worked for me, to have thoughts of him slowly become less intense. I am just reliving some stuff because he appeared at my screen door a couple of months ago, peering in at me. I’m NC again now. It is grief.
Everyone: I missed whatever went on yesterday myself! I so strongly disagree with so much that was in that one post! I looked at the thread 10X and it looked like me blathering on and on about myself!! I just figured “it’s my party, and I’ll type if I want to” !! Maybe I’m manic/depressive, LOL.