This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Hi Kim, Hi Shabby,
I miss you both. don’t have much time to post, sometimes I have to sign off if I hear the door opening…I’m in a situation where I don’t feel completely safe. I’m with someone new but he hurts my feelings a lot. I was with the P since I was 17 so I’m not sure if this is normal – that’s what my exP did then he would apologize. My new bf, well, he’s very different from normal, that’s for sure, and it scares me. But I do feel in love with him and he gave me a job too. Too much going on to post here because it make me nervous to reveal… what if … well after 25 years of being fooled, I have real trust issues. It wasn’t until the last few days of my relationship with the P that I realized I was in danger.
Oxy, I know you don’t approve, but this is the best I can do right here, right now. emotionally and financially, this is better for me than living with my egg/sperm donors and sociopathic brother in the basement and the narcissistic sister who visited everday and wanted me dead because her trojan horse husband is in cahoots with my ex-P. There seems to be no relief from sociopaths for me. but I’m doing what I can to survive.
Dear sweet skylar, babe we each have to make ourt own decisions about whereto live, who with, when to stay and when to book it. What sare you, over21 years old> Thought so, soi the DECISION IS YOURS..If I were to try to “make”YOU TAKE4 MY ADVICE AGAINST YOUR WILL AND IT DIDN’T TURN OUT RIGFHT, i’D HAVE TO TAKE THE BALME, SO Nahg, IU might make a SUGGESTION orf sit with ou on thre front portch anddrink a mintjulip- or a pot of tera or cfoffee, but YOU astre the leader, the camptain of your sloul boat!
And When & what difference does it matter if I do or don’t “approve: of anything—-I’m not your mother, and you’re over 18, so you are legally and morally allowed to make your own mistakes and decidsions., What a frienddoes izs cheer you on when you make a good one,and gvive you a hug whenit doesnm’tturnout lright,andthen helpl you get bakc up onyour feet again, and then rinse and repleat!!!
So sarling you have got lotys of FRIENDS her my dear@.......!!! lBut I woudl advixe uyou to keep in mind that probably only me andnErin B are “dangerous skillet swingers!) LOL (((((Huhs, but we’ll be off after the P bashing his head in@.......!)_
Good morning:) and thanks for the congrats everyone!:)x cant tell you how much it means from EVERYONE:)
Being back in a good position, at least work wise, is a another step back to me (which comes first? the healing chicken or the structure egg or vice versa? Tee-hee). Working has always been important to me, with all the madness going on in my family maybe it’s been a sort of sanctuary,where I am good at what I do, and have a valued contribution to make. (is that healthy or not!), the structure and grounding of it, being part of an team doing USFUL things, being an effective ‘part’ of something! and my home has always been sort of the centre of my autonomy – both work and home life fell into a heap of rubble during and after the spath… I want them back up and running!:)x
No heartache at work Hens:) definitely)x
I am still committed to seeing my therapist on a regular basis, were doing good work, so the NUTS stays firmly with the therapist (and you guys sorry;)x
Shabby Chic – I have a peas Poem for you:)
I eat my peas with honey
I’ve done so all my life
It makes the peas taste funny
But it keeps them on my knife:)
(found that on the internet – it’s not mine:)x
Right I am off to interview a child- minder:S next hurdle! :)xxx
blueskies, you are so sweet, love the little poem! Maybe I could eat peas with honey on them, never tried that!
I am so glad you found a position you like, now everything should fall back into place!! I have always worked, and enjoyed it. I have a few possibilities coming up, so hopefully something good will happen!
Good luck on the interview with the child minder!!
Now you are up for the day, and I’m going to go to sleep now! I’m happy I saw you before I logged off!! Have a great day!!!
skylar, you sound very aware of what you are doing, I know you have studied sociopaths and narcissists extensively. I think you know it’s not normal that a person should hurt your feelings a lot. You should feel safe, we all have that basic human need to feel safe. You feel in love with him, and he gave you a job too? I know you are writing quickly, but it’s not making a lot of sense. I am not judging you, I understand you are doing what you have to do in order to survive, I don’t know what I would do in your situation. I’m glad you got away from your family!!!!! I’m over here trying to eek out my little survival. I hope the best for you, me, and everyone else here!!!
Skylar:)x It’s nice to see you.xx I will be honest and say that I wish you OUT of the situation you are in. I would wish that none of us were ever in the position of feeling unsafe with someone again:( I would wish that none of us ever feel reliant on someone (unsafe) again:(x I can wish away but only make those choices for myself.
I have a daughter who is dependant on a pretty evil woman for her ‘survival’… now she doesnt HAVE to be, but the other options are much harder at first (self reliance, independence, transient poverty and change of lifestyle, rejecting ‘brainwashing’)… I AM her mother and TELLING her all this seems futile… but its all I can do, that and keep the door open for her:(x
I am glad you are posting when you can. Take care.
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Oxy doooo!!!!!!:D Your typ-o’s there made me fall off my chair!:) x I am not the only one who has to spell check everything then!!!?:) I hope its margarita with the “boyfriend” related rather than stress or health related!! XXXXXXXX ((( Huh’s ))) to you from me skillet weilding one!:)x
Blueskies, just checking in and saw your good news. Congratulations, even if I’m the last to say it!!! Let us know what you think of your new job once you’ve settled in.
Shabbychic “I do not let people know how lonely I am, I am very careful about that, even with my daughter, when she calls I sound bright and happy and busy.” I do the same with people in my life. No one wants to be around a downer, but I feel like you, like I want to be part of a group again (since my last one has gone up in flames, family and career included), and I can’t find my way. What I suspect is that once we go inside ourselves far enough, we’ll find that we are in fact very cool people, and once our feelings catch up with that realization, others will be naturally drawn to us again. Just a suspicion, since i haven’t actually experienced that transformation in any complete way yet, just small moments of success here and there with it.
And some food for thought for anyone who wants it (courtesy of Wikipedia):
Love bombing is the deliberate show of affection or friendship by an individual or a group of people toward another individual. Critics have asserted that this action may be motivated in part by the desire to recruit, convert or otherwise influence.
Psyche
Dancing Warrior –
“I just go on day by day, afraid to admit to myself how devastated I feel, because I am afraid I’ll fall apart and won’t be able to put myself back together. And to this day, after a 2 yr separation and divorce in the works, I STILL long for the security, the family, the “caring,” the good times that I think I cannot have without him.”
I think I didn’t really sense how much you’re hurting when I first read this, and I don’t know how I could have missed it. I’m sorry. I think you’re right to want the security of a family, the good times that come with it. That’s only natural. Sometimes the experiences we have with these Spaths and Ns force us to rethink about the way we connect. And they do all they can to force us to reconnect with ourselves, first, in a whole new way, before we can be ready to reconnect with others in a healthy way.
What I’m trying to say is that looking back on what we lost and wishing we could un-do it, can keep us feeling lost and ruined. I do this, so I’m not saying don’t do it. It’s just that it might help to think about what parts of the past still hold your attention and why. I’ve noticed that i can’t let any feelings go, or transform them, until I’ve honored my right to have them in the first place. Is there some feeling that you think you ‘should not’ be feeling? Give yourself the right to feel it, and see if it doesn’t transform (it’s worked like magic for me a couple of times). If you’re afraid of feeling the devastation, that may be what you want to honor – your feelings may be telling you that *should* feel devastated after all you’ve been through. If you feel you can’t handle the fall-out from the feelings of devastation, then you can honor your right to be conflicted by that too. It’s okay to be afraid.
Feelings aren’t right or wrong, it’s how we respond to them that makes the critical differences. Make your feelings ‘right’ no matter what, at least in your own head and heart. And believe that you’ll find in yourself what you need to address your troubles, when you’re ready.
Doubt that I’ve been helpful here, actually, since what I was trying to say never really came out the right way despite the efforts. Sorry.
Anyway, on your other thoughts: “I sympathise. How about living in denial for, say, 16 years? Which keeps the WTF moment at bay, the inconvenient truth that I did not and still do not want to see.”
If it makes you feel any better, my denial lasted 39 years, b/c my N parents started cheating me out of my basic rights since birth, and I went along with it not knowing any better. The loss is terrible, of youth, of happiness, self-respect, self-worth …. BUT the main thing is that you’ve had the courage to see what you’ve seen. It just means you’re ready now, but you weren’t before. It’s okay to delay. I think that all of my denial saved my life, because if I had discovered the truth about my abusers any sooner, it would have freaked me out too soon, and I am not at all sure that I could have gotten away with my life.
I think we see things when we’re ready to see them. Period. So don’t feel bad about your delay (((hugs))), even if you lost many good years to it. You’ve still got now, and all the years ahead of you.
“I’m glad it’s a girl. I hope she’ll grow up to be a BEAUTIFUL LITTLE FOOL.” That’s a chilling quote, when I realize how much fun the Spaths and Ns have had at my expense precisely because that’s what I was. But I’m not that now. And neither are you. They have to find new prey, and we get to find good people to share our lives with.
xoxo, Psyche
shabby
oh no……it’s all YOUR fault for being so imaginative with the moon and stuff ha ha…. and the peas poetry.. how inspiring was that???…..but shabby….oh uh oh….. I feel a poem coming on!!! I tried to stop it but it just wont stay in….
Hell hath no fury like bulletproof
she finds it so hard not to hit the roof
she cursed and she roared
blamed all of lovefraud
and now she’s gone totally woof woof
not to mention the woman called Brockavitch
who BP on occasion felt “what a witch”
but now that she’s calmer
after hitting head with a hammer
she’d like to say sorry for the hissy fits
Blueskies, I just read those TYPOS and gosh I DID look DRUNK ????? I swear I wasn’t, and I SHOULD have checked my typing, but guess I was in a hurry and forgot to do so! LOL
It is funny I used to type so fast well over 100 wpm without any errors and after the plane crash I got to where there are so many typos and I hit numbers inside words as well, which is odd, so I know that my fingers and brain are not working together like they did before the plane crash. And SHORT TERM MEMORY? Like remembering to spell check? NAH, NOT A CHANCE. I even remembered at midnight last night I hadn’t fed or watered the ducks or the.
The peas and the knife reminds me of how I laughed when I saw the “upside down fork” being used and mashed potatoes and a knife used to put peas on the convex surface of the fork tines when I was in South Africa. In some ways that makes more sense, but somehow it never seemed to with peas! LOL