This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Dear Kathy,
Great to”see” you, dear! Great comment on Steve’s great article! Hope all is well with you! I have been missing your comments!
Psyche,
I assumed that the people in my world (including my h-spath) were your average, every-day-person, normal (as normal as we can be). It comes as a shock when you discover that there are people (critters) in our midst who are not (putting on a show that’s believable for a time) what they appear to be. It is an absolute shock to your system, causing your mind to re-evaluate “things as you know it to be”. Your posts are helpful to the people that you respond to plus the individuals who read them (clarifying our experiences, making a lot of sense). Take care.
Psyche (lovely name), the difficult truth, I think, is that we just can’t know if they’re relating or manipulating. Because even in normal, healthy human interactions we’re all seeking what we want and need.
The problem with sociopaths is that they don’t care what it costs us for them to get what they want. With narcissists, there’s a lack of understanding that other people’s wants and needs are just as real as theirs are.
But the point at which manipulation goes “over the line” is not really about them, but us. It’s our line. I think that ultimately the only real form of self-defense, or even the ability to navigate through life with a clear objective of seeking out our own needs and wants, is learning to be sensitive to our own reactions and take them seriously.
There’s always a point in these relationships where we start to wonder about the other person’s motives. Whether they are interested in us, or what they can get from us. Whether they are using us to bolster their egos or their sense of power. Whether they see us at all, except as a kind of tool or stepping stone.
And we feel it. We may wrap those feeling in a lot of intellectual work to figure out why we feel that way. But the feeling is a kind of hurt sense of being disregarded.
That, to me, is “the line.” What we do about this feeling determines how much damage we’re going to sustain in this relationship. If we’re living with a lot of childhood training that our feelings don’t count and we’re supposed to serve other people’s objectives, then we’re probably just going to allow this abuse or usage to continue or escalate. One of the good things about relationships with sociopaths is that they are object lessons in the fact that we need to learn how to take care of ourselves first, before exercising generosity with other people.
In addition, if we are imagining that this other person is going to give us something that we want or need, and we’re willing to make a series of “small” sacrifices to get it, we have another object lesson. Which might be about making our happiness contingent on our ability to please someone else. Or it might be a lesson about what we can really afford to give away before we do damage to our identity and betray our own welfare.
But all of this comes down to us. They merely present a challenge. The real issue is what we do about that challenge.
In my mind, so much of this healing process comes down to reconsidering our relationships with ourselves. And taking a long hard look at beliefs or coping mechanisms that get in the way of caring for ourselves. Or that make us dependent on other people’s behavior for our happiness or peace of mind. Yes, we need to find support in the outside world in order to survive. We need community and a way to earn our living. But if we believe we deserve respect and good treatment, we can find ways to live that include that.
And if the odd predator shows up, our assumption that we deserve respect will be our best defense.
When I look back at my own relationship with a sociopath, at all the pivotal moments when I could have stood up for myself and said ” You must be kidding” instead of acquiescing to another level of use or abuse, that would have made the difference.
Kathy
Hi Oxy, thanks for the welcome back. I just couldn’t resist reading Steve’s latest article, and took a break from work. I’m not doing a very good job of practicing what I preach these days. So much work, and so much time locked to my computer that I’ve hurt my back really badly. I’m limping around, and have just invested in an inversion table which will hopefully help.
I’m starting to make some serious plans to change my life. Almost bought an older Airstream last month, but it got away from me. I’m looking for another one now. I’m going to get out from under this mortgage, slim down my life, and get back to writing and healing work. (And hopefully come back to spend more time here.)
Much love you to and all the healing people —
Kathy
Kathleen Hawk,
Good post! I like what you included saying, ” And if the odd predator shows up, our assumption that we deserve respect will be our best defense.” To pass the litmus test, if a person doesn’t treat you with respect and show good treatment of you, then you know that you want to pass on that individual. What I learn here and/or am reminded of (even at my age) is good. Now, it’s up to me to apply the information, making my life better.
Right, bluejay.
But I forgot to add one important thing. Oxy once said something that I really loved about forgiving ourselves for being human. It’s okay that we want things, and that we sometimes get a little dazzled by the appearance of something that looks like what we want.
These experiences of discovering that we’ve been fooled, or that what we thought we wanted wasn’t exactly the right thing for us, or that our judgment has just gone kerflooey because we were so eager to grab it, is just part of the endless process of growing up.
We tend to resist the idea of starting over, because we want to hold onto familiar things. But in my experience, it’s actually a kind of psychic renaissance when we toss out old beliefs and habits that don’t work anymore. We are renewed and empowered and we get a new sense of perspective and humor about things.
I sometimes think that all this agony of healing is just about that — resistance to learning something that is going to change our lives. For the good. But we’re going to have to let go of some of our illusions and denial to get there.
I used to be such a sweet person. Everyone described me a good and generous. And I was grateful when anyone recognized how hard I worked to make them happy or help them to achieve their dreams. I probably still am sweet, good and generous, but I don’t value other people’s appreciation of my service to them in the same way. Now, I expect to be acknowledged and paid for it as well. Because it’s my time and energy, and I treat other people the same way.
That’s the end of codependency. No little unspoken deals that I’ll be good to you if you’ll be good to me. All my deals are on the table now. My time is worth so many dollars or service in return. Romance with me involves certain commitments including fidelity. Any interaction with me requires recognition that there are two people in the room who deserve to be heard and respected. In all of this, I can be kind and caring. But I can also turn it off and walk away, if the situation is wasting my time or causing me pain.
And though I appreciate being thanked or recognized in some complimentary way, I don’t take it too seriously. Because the ultimate judge of me is me. I know when I’m doing a good job or working in alignment with my values. And not matter how much money or compliments come my way, it doesn’t make me feel better if I know I’m not.
I had to let go of a lot of romantic illusions to get here. And I sometimes miss being so gaily oblivious to risk and falling in love so easily. That part is still inside of me. I’ve almost fallen in love a few times since I got rid of the sociopath. But I didn’t. Not because these people were too risky, although they were. But because they weren’t really what I wanted. I’m finished with slumming in my romantic relationships.
We can do better. And until someone that interesting comes along, with all the lessons we will learn with them, we can take care of ourselves.
And it sounds like you and a lot of us are on that independent path.
Now back to work …
Kathy
Great points, Kathy! I think that your point about “finished slumming” is a great one. I think that’s where the self esteem part comes in too. We don’t have to put up with the TRASH. We ARE better, we DESERVE better and we won’t settle for less than the best.
The AirStream sounds like a great idea! I really have changed my ideas about RV living!@.......!!The learning curve isn’t all that steep either.
Cutting way down on the amount of possessions we have to take care of is also a great idea! The more you have, the more you have to dust and take care of!
Hope you find a really nice AS they are wonderfully made!
Hi Kathy,
“But the point at which manipulation goes “over the line” is not really about them, but us. It’s our line. I think that ultimately the only real form of self-defense, or even the ability to navigate through life with a clear objective of seeking out our own needs and wants, is learning to be sensitive to our own reactions and take them seriously.”
I couldn’t agree with you more. In the end, it’s got to be about us and where we draw our lines.
The trouble I’ve tried to express is that for some of us, those lines are still too blurry, we haven’t found them yet. they were hidden from us since childhood, and it’s about trying to find them for the first time, for many of us, I suspect.
And at the same time, because many of us lack ‘lines’ or the gut intelligence that people use to help themselves, we’ve got to find other ways to protect ourselves while the Ns are still hitting on us.
After my experiences, I can’t help but agree with you that:
“They merely present a challenge. The real issue is what we do about that challenge.
In my mind, so much of this healing process comes down to reconsidering our relationships with ourselves. … But if we believe we deserve respect and good treatment, we can find ways to live that include that.”
I’m on that path now, but the issue often comes up for me about what constitutes good and fair treatment. I’ve had my impressions warped about what those things are, for so long, by so many abusers, that I question myself all the time. Each step I take on behalf of my own self-respect is something that I labor over (to an incredible degree), because I have to weigh things from every angle, just to figure out what’s okay and what isn’t for me. I can often talk myself out of what’s good for me, because that’s what I’ve spent the last 40 years learning how to do. Now that I’m defining what my boundaries are, I will be able to rely upon them more and more. But I’m not where normal people are with that yet.
To put it another way, other people have the gift of being able to operate from a gut that already functions. I do not, and I think many others do not. For us, it’s about finding and strengthening our relationship with that gut, and in the meantime, (and here I really speak only for myself), we have to fall back on other measures, like looking at people who show red flags very very very carefully. For me, finding out one thing is critical: can they empathize/validate? And there are different ways that I have to go about finding this out.
Anyway, it is the validation/empathy factor that’s a dead giveaway for me, and it’s what has saved me from entering into more relationships with Ns and Spaths, as the opportunities have presented themselves to me. Also, I have to admit a certain guilty pleasure in having identified the weak spots of the people who would try to dominate me through manipulation. I took great pleasure in calling my last potential Narcissistic suitor on exactly what he wasn’t doing (validating my feelings)- you should have seen him and all of his arrogance whither right before my very eyes. He lowered his head and looked up at me with the eyes of the angry little coward he was, who knew he had been found out. He had no answer for me, and I found out later that his last two wives had left him for precisely the same reason. I was just glad i got to call him on it before I walked away. It gave me a feeling of resolution (and emotional victory) that I’d never experienced in my dealings with Ns before.
Psyche
Kathy,
Just about this:
“I used to be such a sweet person. Everyone described me a good and generous. And I was grateful when anyone recognized how hard I worked to make them happy or help them to achieve their dreams. I probably still am sweet, good and generous, but I don’t value other people’s appreciation of my service to them in the same way. Now, I expect to be acknowledged and paid for it as well. Because it’s my time and energy, and I treat other people the same way.
That’s the end of codependency. No little unspoken deals that I’ll be good to you if you’ll be good to me. All my deals are on the table now. My time is worth so many dollars or service in return. Romance with me involves certain commitments including fidelity. Any interaction with me requires recognition that there are two people in the room who deserve to be heard and respected. In all of this, I can be kind and caring. But I can also turn it off and walk away, if the situation is wasting my time or causing me pain. ”
I was just like this, and have learned the very same lessons. And O, God, if only I had learned them sooner, my life would not be the heap of ruins that it is now. Some of us get invested in being perceived as ‘good’, now, for me, it has to be about me perceiving myself as good (by this I mean being true to myself), even if that pisses some people off. And it does, but that’s part of the process of getting away from people who got used to being able to use me.
Anyway, I love the way you said those things. Just wanted to say so,
Psyche
Shabbychic
Thanks for NOT ignoring it, that’s what the P did when I was distressed, he just blanked me….it’s gutting, it’s cruel…. His birthday is coming up and so are the memories and so the pain on realising, it was all a complete lie, I can barely stand it…anyway I have resolved to myself I will survive and not go doolally, though I’m near the edge…. you are a creative person and I’m okay, I’m actually ok. thank you
I’m so sorry you invited yourself, and you are bringing your own food to your BROTHER….who lives just a mile away, and you promised you wouldn’t stay long….he is so lucky to have you there, if he only would see it…and maybe, during the evening, there will be an opportunity to CONNECT as real people not just some role play from the big dysfunctional family !!!! I am really trying to “stay present” when in the family dynamic, and I can see where Ive been sold down the river, and I can see I will not tolerate it anymore, I am what I intend to be…hence the anger that is new and raw. and makes mistakes….bless, thanks for being so NORMAL