This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Now I don’t want to throw a cat amomgst the pigeons, you know me I would NEVER do that, I’m SOOO level headed and balanced..(JOKE) but
If you are in recovery from a P and there has been no contact for a long time, and healing has occured…and then suddenly out of nowhere they contact….for me it would be worse NOT finding out what the hell he wants to say …keep your friends close but your enemies closer..also things do not come back around again unless there is a reason and it could be just this…testing your recovery level. Either way, if healing has happened ( the crying, the grieving, the rage the HELL that is recovery)
then nothing and I mean NOTHING would get you back there!!!!
Every day I’m NC I’m getting stronger in the sense I know I couldn’t ever love him again. I may feel sorry for him, I may tell him to go to hell, I may listen to another display of manipulation and deceit…but hell, we couldnt go back in….could we?
Rosa that’s amazing what you did! what a message to the universe- you got it right in the end, I think some people need to go back to re learn the lesson just in case they didnt get it the first time!! terrible but true.
tobehappy sounds like you have made the decision, that’s fantastic. I agree about the dating sites, post P they are the scariest places. I can read the sweet talk, the lies after about 10 minutes….my name on the dating site? backgroundchecker…..how romantic !! lol
Bullet – Just my take/experience of what you said above… with ME, any contact, even just knowing IT has veiwed me in someway shakes me. I think it CAN ‘put you back’ emotionally, but any interaction will have an affect. I am past feeling sorry for him or telling him to go to hell. he is persona non grata – why should I give a shit what he has to ‘say’ (mouth moving = Lies.) but at the moment it still shakes me (just like second hand contact with ED makes me feel like I am being dragged back into something… even if in reality its just my thoughts being dragged in). I want every inch of my head space back from these creatures…
Is there an element of ‘testing your own healing status here?…hmmm… I dont think I need to do that… not with THEM…with my therapist or you , yes.x
Just my thinks.
xxx
Blue, I think testing your own healing by having a tiny bit of contact with a spath is like putting your hand on a red hot stove plate,”just to see if it REALLY burns this time!”. Well, yea, it WILL burn, Duh! Its very tempting to go back and re -test the waters, but to what purpose? The spaths aint gonna change, EVER. We have that as a given, period .Your so right, Blue,none of us can afford to go there. Mama Gem.XX
how can you tell a psychopath is lying? His lips are moving….yes blueskies that’s for sure. There is still a bimbo brain cell in there that thinks he will see the error of his ways and would want to pay back the sum of money he stole……so hard to understand it…so hard my head hurts…I would be feeling like a total CREEP to have done what he did
the bit of me that was duped…still is at times. That part would light up to see his (once beloved) name on the screen…think I knew he would never be able to forget me because he has a heart, and now he is going to change…..and we could live happily ever afters…just getting out the sick little fantasy that still lives in me. Exposing it may rip it out by the roots….but that’s it…I still want the love story, I want to wake up out of this nightmare into a world where this kind of thing can’t happen.
I would head off into the sunset with him once again, and feel sorry for all you guys on lovefraud, I would have to say “I made a mistake” he isn’t a P just a poor misunderstood crazy mixed up loveable guy that lost his way but has found it again….and you would all look at eachother and go “is she nuts”
There I’ve lived it out a bit so I’m ready for it. It would be skillet time for sure. The above is the worst case scenario for my life. That is the worst possible thing that could happen…and I would hate the test. I may not be able to resist it and it would be further damage on top of the last batch…
Gemini-Yeah its putting your hand back on the hot plate!x. Its been said many times, but just like an addiction… people get ‘clean’ feel good and strong but then come the lies you tell YOURSELF (just like with smoking or drinking you tell yourself “it helps me relax’ or its my treat – NO It’s POISON, it’s KILLING you and it’s costing you all your money!!) there is a temptation sometimes when you quit something to ‘test that theory’ and your back to square 1.:( You have to work through it…
Bullet, some people are further past the stage that you are at and I think its really hard, there’s such a disconnect, its such a big emotional GAP to bridge…keep going…keep going… keep going…
I wonder if you would consider talking therapy for times when you feel like you’ve described above? Talking it out, or ‘living it out’ like you so well put is SO helpful to get yourself some perspective…alllow you to express and explore how you really are feeling …not how you ‘should’ be feeling…
…feeling is one thing – acting on it is another!:)xx
Keep going….keep going…forward!:)x
going back to the article… you wouldnt expect your ‘drug of choice’ (Nicotine alcohol whatever) to care about or validate youre experience of them no matter how much you ‘love’ them…that’s the same with a sociopath….or narc.
Dear Blueskies!!
GREAT ANALOGY!!!!
Last night I dreamed about a friend of mine who smokes, and she offered me a secret cigarette and I took it in the dream. I don’t remember tasting it, but I did take it.
I’m even off the nicotine replacement gum now for several weeks, no nicotine at all, and really don’t have a lot of urges for nicotine or cigarettes. I don’t cough any more and I know if I smoke I will cough til I am blue. But I don’t think the urge will 100% go away EVER. I think our addiction to them is the same way. We get over 99.9% of it, but if we give in to that .01% we will BE BACK IN THE GUTTER post haste!
To me, even at the stage of healing I am now, Running into them accidently and SUDDENLY without warning is a possible trigger, so I avoid where I think I might run into the egg donor etc. I work very hard to keep my feelings of safety and LOW STRESS working well. I LIVED IN HIGH STRESS for years and I DO NOT LIKE THE FEELING, it is painful and sickening and when I get a dose of those hormones that was CONSTANT then , it literally makes me ILL for a day or so.
The reason I got away from the Ps is to cut DOWN ON THE STRESS and I work hard at not stressing.
blueskies
first gut response? you think I am mentally ill..I’m upset….HE IS THE ONE WITH DISORDER, I’m the one who goes to therapy for it!!!rage!!
BUT yes I think it’s time for a bit of talk therapy to get this toxic muck out of me. I am fuming again today (walked about 4 miles angrily, but im in good shape physically, fitter than I thought) I have free time now, school holidays, so Its a perfect time to hook up with therapist.I need to do a bit of research…I need the type of therapy to bash pillows, and kick a bean bag around and get this cancer out of me…it’s foul…contaminated…not really me at all…I refuse to allow another sun go down feeling like this…I want to punch something hard and pretend it’s his face, I want to screeeaamm like a banshee…the therapist wouldnt even have to dig very deep I’m ready…..is the therapist??? that’s the only thing stopping me, I need to find a therapist that understands the anger that goes with a betrayal like this, and isn’t nodding at me with a “she is a nutter” look on her face…a therapist that can support me, champion me, be on my side….yay I feel better just thinking about it. Thanks
Cha! we’re all ‘nutters’ here. Didnt you know? we’ve all been diagnosed by the Socipathic Board of Psychological Projectionists.:) WELCOME:)xx
My little one s jumping up and down but I am gong to come back to reply.x
Bulletproof,
The way you discribed going back to the spath could represent how many of us feel. I think you really nailed the way they can suck you in and make you feel like you are so lucky to be with them. Make you feel special and unique.
It’s like they want to give you a view of magic, if only we would believe in them. But for the lies, I would get sucked back in.