This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Kathy
what you say about the anger being a social emotion…..I really feel the need for argument, I want to argue..push to the edge, push it over the edge…and be ALLOWED to do it, I want to shout loud in your face and be as ugly as I really am , I want to feel yes I can make an impact on you, I can say no I don’t like that and what are you going to do about it? I want to have a huge big adult sized tantrum, stick my fingers up to the world, blow rasberry’s at shop attendants, frighten little old ladies by shouting BOO! I want to break plates, rip up self help books that tell me to calm down, clash the pots and pans around, scream randomly on street corners, insist on my rights…roar like a lion, turn into the incredible hulk and pick the P up by the scruff of the neck and dangle him over a volcano saying are you sorry yet? aaaaaaaaaah relief!!!
I’m off on another 4 mile walk…..I’ll stomp it out, walking really helps until I get to monday then It’s either self defence classes or therapy or both. I’m using my body when I walk…this stuff is physical, it’s toxic….I often wonder, and I’m nearly convinced….for me anyway but think about this everyone….if we don’t express this anger where does it go? into an illness thats where. The body knows what to do…if it can’t get OUT it will express itself within the body…illness yes, that’s what the psychopath does to a body…makes it ill….kills it in a way, I have to keep going because I won’t let one creep ruin my life…I will use him as a catharsis now to deal with ALL the anger, as you say Kathy it’s not just anger at what he has done to my being, but what EVERYONE at various times has done…time to stand up…shake this off…please understand this need, please help me. You do. Thanks eternally for understanding.
I am not sulking, gaslighting, unhappy or having a ‘pity party’ about what I wrote or anything anyone else wrote.. I expressed my opinion.. then bantered with those that criticized me for doing so..
The misconceptions and jumping to conclusions on this can be really rampant.
I am busy and don’t stay on this all the time like some.. I have just now read this thread..
Thanks for any concern.. I was just expressing myself and when I realized that the way I did it caused defensivness, I became sarcastic.. then that upset some..
Sorry.. if what I wrote and my opinion triggered some.. but, perhaps that was the puspose..
I am very direct in my communication. I stand by my opinions and see nothing wrong in the way that I expressed them..
There are some great insights in articles and others not so much and each of us sees it differently and that is okay..we are all in different places..
and the way that we express differences is okay also..
In my writing, I have had some praise me to the hllt and others call me names..
And it doesn’t bother me, I respect their right to express and to have their opinion..
That’s what makes us have our individuality and boundaries.. and isn’t that what this site is about?
It’s great to be able to ‘label’ someone or some behavior.. but it’s the integration, acceptance and inner knowing that matters.. not the degree or variance of what is being displayed in another…
“Forgiveness recognizes that what youf brother has done to you did not occur.”
You did it to yourself.. that is why many of us are so frustrated, angry, venting on here.
This is the jouney to self-awareness… that is what life is.. every experience.. each interaction..
Agree or not..
I enjoy reading on this sight as I glean much.. but I don’t agree or accept it all… duh!
bullet – you’re 100% right, stifled anger does become illness, drained energy, etc. i actually started getting boils on my face until i faced the anger. it sounds crazy, but it’s true!
sierra, i think your comment hits on a very important point – how can a therapist know when a client is a P or an S or an N? I mean, they’re so good at fooling everyone, and most therapists really don’t seem to get it. this is one reason why i think steve’s point about validation/empathy is so important. That’s the sign to look for, it’s the bottom line that clears up distortions created by otherwise confusing signals that Ps, Ns and Ss deliberately send. Can a person sincerely validate/empathize or not? Also, can they admit fault where fault is clear (that’s another bottom line kind of indicator).
Anyway, all, very interesting thread, I’m out for the weekend. Hope you all enjoy some sunshine, wherever you are.
Psyche
just a quick p.s. bullet — to clean the anger out of myself (very much an ongoing process, i’m not done yet) realizing that it’s physical, at a fundamental level was key for me too. i found that bathing in hot springs can work miracles, as long as the water is mineral water and not full of chlorine. Also, drinking marigold tea (calendula) and eating foods that restore the body’s ph (alkaline diet) is getting rid of a lot of my physical symptoms. plus tons of walking. i have become a crazy hiker (addicted without shame!), and it does work wonders. it feels so good to stomp and sweat it out!!
Psyche,
Physical release really helps me..
I have worked out all my life.. but at times, of stress, anger frustration, hurt or whatever.. working out keeps me sane..
I crave working out if I don’t do it for a few days or a week.. as it takes me back to my center.. and perspiration is such a release..
There was a time..years back that I really think that aerobics saved my sanity.. and the side beneifts are a strong body and keeping in shape..
For me the body, mind, spirit connection are paramount..
There has to be balance.. I think we all crave that balance and it can get so distorted if we let emotions, addictions, etc. take us over..
Ever vigilant..
Style1 and Psyche-I started full on workouts recently too and it’s awesome. I started going outside to walk/jog/bike in the heat of the day after work. I live in New Orleans and it’s really hot and humid and I sweat like a man when I’m out there. It’s awesome and I’m addicted to it. I just got p90x and I’m starting it this week-so excited about it and joining the gym where they do boxing and martial arts classes. I have pink boxing gloves and a brand new bike. Hoping to start riding to work soon.
Working with our ANGER in an APPROPRIATE way is what we need to work toward.
WE need to realize that we are CRANKY and IRRITABLE and easily “triggered” when we are feeling this anger so will take offense where none is intended and strike out at that offense feeling “JUSTIFIED” in doing so.
Take for example the Wife #2 who came here angry at “Nora” and striking out in RAGE at Love Fraud, Nora and saying that she didn’t need “no stinking blog” to heal she ya da ya da, etc. (these posts have now been removed and she apologized later) but the point is that she was ANGRY at one person but STRUCK OUT against me and one or two others that posted nicely back to her. She felt justified because she was MAD at Nora.
How do we know when we are “standing up for ourselves” and when we are just raging at someone who just happened to be there or “tick us off?” Sometimes it is difficult to tell, but I think if we can say “am I being kind with this comment or UNkind” then we ought to be able to figure it out.
I’m not throwing rocks at anyone over this, believe me I have been SO MAD (at life, the worldl, the P etc etc) that I have struck out at others inappropriately. It is part of the healing process, but one that we must own that we sometimes do fail at. Accepting responsibility and owning our tendencies to be “cranky” when the anger we are feeling is really for what the P has done to us but since they aren’t available to hang out over the volcano we strick at the first person who walks by.
Learning to recognize how angry we are, and back up from that anger (not stuff it) and say to ourselves, “I am too angry right now to deal with other people, I need a time out” and then TAKE IT FOR OURSELVES.
style 1, Your back!! great!! missed you, was wondering where you went, but I guess you have a life and was living it….I am glad you are okay I really felt so similar to you, but I couldnt pull away from the site..I had to ask for attention and have a tantrum and it was worth it!!! people here really understand and it’s okay!!
Psyche, erin1972
yes, back from my walk and I feel good. All the muscles had a work out, I stomped and cursed and no one saw me (i think) as I walked I noticed the beautiful trees and landscape glide past, fast ,jesus I walk fast these days faster than most, and it reminded me of the beautiful floating action of a swan, yet underneath she is paddling like hell!!! yes, I’m working hard on remaining swan like and beautiful!!
I will try marigold tea, not big on the teas but i havent heard of that one, if it helps one bit I’ll try it. perspiration being a release is brilliant, I copped on to that one, if you arnt sweating over this then there is something wrong, sweat and sweat, embrace the sweat and know it’s detoxifying…and alkaline diet, ooooooh hot springs….delicious and of course walking, walking is fantastic, I think of walking away from my problems, walking through the shit, walking it out, talking the talk walking the walk, walk the line, these boots are made for walking and thats just what i’ll do, one of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you…nancy sinatra, walk on through the storm, the walk of life.. walking after moonlight, etc. etc. you get my drift …thank you
I just totally agree with the sweating like a man, I’m excited to think about any physical expression, because this stuff sits like tar over the living organism, and it’s like the bp oil spill, you gotta get active and remove the pollution any way you can, quit blaming who dunnit and just focus on the clean up….
OxDrover
I disagree with your approach to anger, I think we have to include it in the repetoire of feelings that result from an experience with a P without “conditions” it is up to us to recognise someone is in distress and not penalise them for “inappropriate” anger… of course it’s going to be inappropriate!!!!I would aspire to (not there yet, have my moments, not a saint in any sense of the word) allowing it come forward no matter what it is!!(It’s no sweat off my brow, I get it, I understand I can accept it with understanding and empathy, I’m not going to take it personally, I know what it feels like) if it swings out at me, I’ll respond etc.
I would question being “too angry right now to deal with other people” I don’t think you should be dealing with people unless you can be honest about how angry you are, it does not mean you have to destroy them, attack them….you can stay with it, not go off and “calm down” further compromising your own recovery by not feeling the full strength of your rage….and it comes across anyway…dare to express your rage with other people, not shut it away like it is a “bad ” emotion, it’s not. it is the activity seat….and if you do not engage with anger on a level that allows in in others….it will go within and act out from there.
Kathy said:
One of the things about anger is that it’s really a social emotion. It not just reactive, but we want to interact. Whether it’s to have an argument or to have someone witness our verbalizing and acting out and to reassure us that we have reason. It’s not something we want to do alone, because there’s no release and it can feel like it’s eating us up.
It’s so true, so essential to see this in order to go that extra mile to really get to grips with this assault on our whole being. BE ANGRY and we will help you not send you away in shame.
Bingo OX. Bingo.
Wild anger is as dangerous to the one who owns it as the one who is its target.
Rarely does good ever come of letting fly without control.
And rarely without strategy does anger alone produce results that make a difference.
Its fine to feel but not good to act without restraint.
It takes time to get into and get out of and get over – angry outbursts. And are not our minutes precious enough?
The decision to engage is key to the work we attempt here.
I can decide to not be kind and if I do it is for the purpose of communicating “nothing here for you” to whoever I am unkind to.
I can decide to be kind even if I am delivering an unpleasant message.
That’s all about manners and socialization. And in keeping with the training and wisdom in the articles here, Watching for the level of impulse control which reins back outbursts is important for us all to observe.
Being angry is part of the healing process but lashing out blindly at people just to do it, isn’t – is it?