This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Dear Silvermoon,
I totally 110% agree with everything you say in your above post. Acting with restraint when you are angry (even justifiably so) is part of the growth we seek.
In Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s search for meaning” he was talking about after the Nazi concentration camp was liberated and how different people reacted to what had happened to them. One example was he and another man were walking somewhere and they encountered a field of growing wheat. Frankl walked around the wheat, as walking over it would have damaged the growing plants and decreased the harvest, but the other man insisted on walking THROUGH it. Frankl tried to explain the reason to walk AROUND but the man KNEW the reason, he just wanted to DESTROY something—anything, because of what he had lost.
Can we understand that? Yes, I can. Doesn’t make it right though. Doesn’t make it good. Sometimes those who have been abused take on the heartless attitude of their abusers and say “well, I was abused so I have a right to strike out. I have a right to hurt others because I was hurt.” Not all do take that attitude, but some do. FORTUNATELY the majority of people who have been abused or victimized are not also abusers themselves.
That’s why I don’t give someone a “pass” for abusing others simply because they have themselves been abused. Being abused does not give anyone the right or permission to abuse others, so if my own emotions are not controlled or controllable then I’m going to disengage from interaction with others, either people in general or specifically with one person until I can behave in an appropriate manner to the situation. With some people, that means NO CONTACT because I am never going to be able to engage in a PRODUCTIVE interaction with that person.
With other people, it may mean I don’t interact with them until THEY calm down, or until I CALM down, or some time passes, and WE calm down—and that may mean a day, a week, a month or a year or it too, could lead to contact situation.
Learning about safe and productive and RESPECTFUL interactions with others is about setting boundaries as well. When I allowed the psychopaths to interact with me when I was not calm, or when they weren’t, I wasn’t setting appropriate boundaries about how and under what circumstances I would interact with them. I GAVE MY CONTROL OVER TO THEM to let them “manage” our relationships.
The things I am SLOWLY learning have allowed me to not only be in control of myself but my relationships with others and my own boundaries. It is a much safer feeling because I know that I can keep myself safe. I can trust myself.
I’m glad you’re here, Silvermoon!
Regarding Oxy’s post, and bulletproof’s and silvermoon’s response, I think everyone is right.
But here’s the difficulty. We see from where we are. If we’re pretty far down the healing path, we have a lot more control of our emotions, because we’ve pretty well processed the things that originally triggered these big feelings.
Alternatively, if we’re dealing with early, backlogged anger, it’s very common to be looking at the world through lens that are tinted by feelings of deep betrayal, distrust, uncertainty about other people’s motives, and a kind of heavy blaming and almost violently defensive mentality that tends to ripple out over things that, in ordinary times, would be a minor irritation or confusion.
Everyone is familiar with the concept of deferred anger, because just about everyone has faced the problem of being attacked by someone who is really suffering about something else. Suffering — grief, shame, depression — affects a lot of our emotional mechanics, but the net result is a kind of loss of resiliency. In my own life, I know I’m most prone to be snappish or blaming if I’m overstressed and overloaded with work. Everyone who’s ever been close to me knows about “Deadline Kathy,” and they give me a lot of space, or learn to regret it. It’s not my intention to be abusive. It’s just that my resilience is gone, and I’m like an elastic band stretched to the breaking point. And talking to me about taking ownership of my feelings or responsibility for my behavior is not helpful, because the real problem isn’t my snappishish, it’s my tendency to take on more than I can handle, and even that’s a symptom of even deeper issues.
However, what Oxy said has its meaning for people who are in the flamethrower stage or realize they are deferring anger onto the wrong targets. Giving ourselves a time-out can keep us from doing something we’ll regret later when we’ve cooled down. Most of us know that we’re “not ourselves,” even if we can’t get it under control right at that moment. Taking a time out can be a good thing, but there’s an even better technique if we’re able to do it.
That’s to schedule time during the day to be angry, to experience all of it, obsess over the stories, and work on it. Some people give themselves ten minutes every hour, and then put it away for the rest of the hour. Some people give themselves an hour or two in the evening. It’s private time, and it’s actually a kind of meditation.
The technique is to consciously go into the feelings. Give them all your attention. Let your mind generate all the words and stories associated with the anger. And listen to yourself with compassion, knowing that you have your reasons to feel this way. This kind of intense attention to a feeling is a way to “get behind it,” to figure out what is really the problem. Typically the mind’s stories are justification for feeling that way, so we don’t feel bad with ourselves. But they may only have hints in them of the real issue. Listening to the feeling itself, rather than the words, can open up the truth about the real injury or loss. Connecting with that can almost miraculously relieve the feelings, because strong feelings like anger are really about our psyche’s attempt to get us to pay attention to something important.
I have a friend, one of those smart, gifted, pretty, athletic, sociable people that has always seemed to have a perfect life. I was really surprised when I found out that she was divorcing her husband. When we talked about it, she told me that her reason was that he was not “there for her,” when she went through some difficult medical and professional times. And that she didn’t want to be married to an emotional child who expected nurturing but wasn’t able to give it.
I was simply blown away by how clearly and confidently she spoke about it, but she told me she went through a lot to get there. A lot of tears, a lot of second-guessing herself, a lot of resentment and trying harder to support him so that he’d want to support her in return. But ultimately, she said, she got clear when she sat with her anger and tried to understand its source. There was something about that process she said that helped her stop trying to understand what was in his head and get more clarity about her own needs.
A lot of us don’t have the luxury of living with anger 24 hours a day until the natural function of the psyche starts turning out insight and leading us toward rebuilding activities. We have children. Or have to interact with other people at work. And it’s not that we’re trying to hide what we’re going through, but that we just don’t want to blast people with what we know is a temporary healing state.
But even if we don’t have that kind of external pressure on us to “behave ourselves,” there’s a another good reason to try to schedule our work on this for only special times. And that’s because it confirms the importance of these feelings and this work. It’s takes us beyond feeling victimized by our own feelings to to a sense of study, wanting to know what the anger is about and, beyond that, what it’s telling us about our history and our needs.
As far as the danger of inappropriate behavior goes, well, those of us who haven’t historically been very good with anger are going to have to learn how to express it effectively. And hurting other people feelings is part of that. We do that once or twice, especially if we were just trying to vent and just being oblivious to someone else’s sensitivitivities. Realizing that we hurt someone beyond what we ever intended, or perhaps created a scene in which a friendly experience turned difficult, can stimulate us to be more sensitive or to learn how to speak about our feelings in new ways. (Like saying, “It makes me uncomfortable when I feel like you’re calling me stupid for making mistakes,” instead of “Stop acting like you know everything, when you acted like such a fool on Friday night” or “I don’t know why you’re always picking on me.”)
Expanding our emotional repertoire is almost always a social minefield, not least because people are not used to us being honest like that. The first time you say “your lack of punctuality makes me feel like you don’t respect my time” to a friend who is used to charming you out of your silent resentment when she shows up a half hour late, it may be a little awkward. Some people may get defensive or blame-y; others may apologize so profusely you may want to remind them this is about your feelings, not theirs.
But in the end, more clarity and honesty is always better. More clarity about what we’re really mad about, so we’re not dumping on innocent parties. More honesty about what triggered the feeling. It may chase off a few people who’ve been taking advantage of our inability to express our feelings or request what we want. It may create some real work to sort out issues with people you want to keep as friends. But the net is that the people who last in your life are the people who are willing to allow you to have feelings and vice versa.
And by the way, becoming compassionate and understanding with yourself about your own anger has the flip-side result that you’re a lot more perceptive and resilient when dealing with other people’s anger. You can understand faster and more easily when it’s not really about you — which it hardly ever is. And you can offer compassion and comfort, if you choose, rather than sniping back. Seeing more clearly into other people definitely gives you more options as to how you want to handle situations.
So it’s really worth it to spend some time looking into your anger, listening to justifying stories your mind wraps around it, and just sitting with your feelings to understand what really happened, exactly what need of yours wasn’t met, and what you can do to take better care of yourself in the future.
Kathy
Haven’t been here since May. I felt the same as some others have stated…like this was a twitter page instead of a blog where victims could share fears and anger. I don’t like seeing other posters accusing others of spath crap like ‘gas-lighting’. Seems like online bully behavior to me.
Still unsure of this place…LF. Who’s going to hurt me now?
All in all doing well… 1 year and 10 months after I kicked the ex-spath out. Working part-time, and have some other independent jobs in the works. Still don’t trust people too much, but I’m finding that the guys I work with like me…really, really like me because I’m trustworthy, sometimes funny, and I care.
Been having problems sleeping lately. I had a dream (nightmare) yesterday. In the dream, my Dad ( a very young 80 something, and the Best Dad in the World) was holding down my ex-spath and I was punching the spath in the face over and over. I’m non-violent, and it is sticking in my mind like peanut butter to white bread. Will this ever end?
I guess that i should also add that I do go to therapy and take medication, but I am on Medicare and I don’t think that all therapists have the training to recognize and treat PTSD…especially when you’re dealing with other long term mental issues. That’s why I keep coming back here.
Well, I guess only the regulars are on now. I will check in tomorrow and see if there are other folks are here.
as i stated, i am very non violent, a nice woman, and the dream of punching my ex was very disturbing. Seeing his face was the worst….that’s the hardest part for me…what have i come to because of him.
thanks for listening and goodnight.
jazzy129,
I’m glad to hear that you’re well, but sorry that you’re having problems with sleeping. If you can get a good night’s sleep, that really does make a difference, helping one to better cope with all that you have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Keep on the healing path.
Jazzy129-it’s good that you’re back. I hope you start sleeping better. I still don’t sleep right very often myself. I don’t blame you for taking a break from us. Most of the frequent flyers on here and the ones who have been here awhile seem to be good straight up individuals. There are a few that visit less frequently that I tend to feel issues with but I’m not going to worry about that or them. I hope you feel better.
bluejay and erin, thanks so much. I’m wandering around the house and checked back in. you don’t know how much this means to me…really!
my ex-spath went to the same behavioral clinic (I sent him there!) as I, and it was only after all this crap that they told me he was a sociopath.
my anger issues…with the spath ONLY…are getting better but it’s a hard road to walk on.
im lonely its hard i gave up my life to make him happy now i dont have any self esteem friends family besides my kids now i have to make a life and learn to like me its pretty scary but ill do it its better than being abused i was thinking about being intimate with someone else just to get over it i havent been with anyone else im also drinking a little ill do what i have to i colored my hair im just like pigpen with a cloud of gloom around me i used to be a model and could take the greatest pictures i cant take one now its spiritual but ill get back to where i was its so crazy someone could strip you of everything to a shell n u not even realize it till u r there n then its so apparent but i wouldnt go back for more id rather have a homeless bum i know how the lady feels who dont want to give up on him im sympathetic you feel fefeated sometimes but going back would be the worse thing nobody deserves these men he doesnt deserve me ill do it its hard for me to talk to him it is like an addiction just make friends get a support group dont get offended here by people saying dont go back they care about you or they wouldnt say it
Dear Tony’s mom,
Sugar you are a WOMAN. You have been treated badly. It is NORMAL and natural to want a relationship with a GOOD man, but unfortunately, many of us have never had a GOOD relationship with a GOOD man, instead we have allowed BAD men to abuse us.
My husband died, in 2004. I miss him. I got involved with another man because I was so lonely after his death I thought I would die. I was so lonely I picked a psychopath who only wanted another respectable wife to cheat on. It ripped my soul out. But I know now that until I am HAPPY with myself, no man can make me happy—not even a good one. I have to heal first, to learn new ways of living MY life and being goood to myself.
Being with someone else sexually won’t help you get over the bade marriage or the lonliness or the hurt. I wish it would cause I’d tell you to get a sitter and get out there tonight. Laugh
Take ONE DAY at a time, come here and read and blog and don’t worry about next week, just each day as it comes.
It’s okay to feel bad but I promise you it will get better! NOT quickly but it will —two steps forward, one step back, keep on in the positive direction toward the light.
You are NOT defeated until you give up and I know you are not going to do that! ((((hugs)))))