This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Bullet:)xx Hello:)
I want to address what you said about me suggesting you are bonkers when suggesting that you find a GOOD therapist. I TOTALLY GROK (thanks Kathy for explaining what that meansxx) how it feels to worry that your natural needs and actions PROOVE what the toxics in your life have been saying all these years about you!
e.g: NARC ED winds it up and winds it up until you feel like a pop bottle that has been shaken up with the cork still in. You NEED to let it out. For you. I’ve spent so many years trying to prove her wrong…keeping in the cork..because to be angry about your treatment and express it?…well that makes everything they beat you about the head with TRUE!!!
(‘she’s bonkers’ect.)
To seek ‘help’ for you, to make a space for you, with another REAL person is YES admitting that it’s what you NEED.
this is okay.
The only people who would think it was not are those who do not have YOUR best interest at heart.
If someone attacked you physically and left a wound – would anyone say that you seeking treatment for that at A&E was proof of your “problem”.
It took me a while to step down from what ‘people think’ and do what I NEED to do for ME. So yes I grok what you say. And I hope you dont think I am passing judgment anymore, but sharing something that has been helpful to me that I hope will be to you too.xxxx
And BP – the other thing I want to say (honestlyx)is slow down?xx. It’s what my therapist said to me… I took out the cork and it all came out… we are trying to let a bit out at a time…:)xx
one_step_at_a_time
I really picked up on that, I felt that you had been “gotten to” by something or someone, there was a block in your path…and if you envy me that’s just because you know you are capable of similar, and it sounds like you are doing what you need to do…break through one step, you might as well…keep going forward…to the place where you are trembling and feeling like you will be rejected, and maybe you will be…but hell you need to know who are your allies and who are going to abandon you for being real….I am here for you in all your ugliness, because others were here for me….that’s how it goes…
Blueskies
I am not complaining about how fast this is moving for me and I have not even been to the therapist yet….so slowing down is not an option for me…I have suffered enough and if I can get to a brighter happier place by blathering on here and recieving acceptance then I am going to improve leaps and bounds, I took the cork out and it all came out!!! how wonderful is that! people responded, and I felt the healing immediately, not one bit at a time….no…as fast as a person responded to my distress is how fast it took….it’s fast if we can tolerate distress, anger and pain and see the whole picture…thanks so much blueskies…I eat and sleep your words of wisdom…I do not think you are passing judgment and your response is responsible for how good I am feeling to night, love you for that…xxxx
bulletproof, just one tiny thought before I got to bed. First, thank you for reading me and finding something it. I sometimes feel like I’m writing stream of consciousness here, and then I have little panic attacks later. So it’s really good for me to know that I connected. You connected with me too.
Okay, what I wanted to say may sound like psychobabble. But it’s a seed to plant. Something that may sound right later, if it doesn’t now.
No matter what people are saying, they are talking about themselves. And to themselves. We are talking out of where we are now, our best level of processing. We are reinforcing it, so it becomes part of us and we can move on to the next thing. Or maybe we are talking out of a level that we know intellectually, but haven’t really locked in at the deep emotional level. Or maybe we’re talking out an inner conflict between parts of ourselves. But it’s us talking to a world that is a reflection of our inner lives. Us talking to ourselves.
So, for example, if you think about talking to your great aunt Mary who comments spitefully about how your cousin Lulu is so arrogant or stingy or slutty. What are you hearing Aunt Mary talk about? I think it isn’t really about Lulu, except insofar as Lulu presents a challenge to Aunt Mary’s values/beliefs. What’s really going on with Aunt Mary is probably something like, “I was told that I wasn’t allowed to be like that, and oh God, what’s going to happen to her, or what if the rules I lived by were wrong? Oh no, I can’t even think about that; it would be too painful to face what I missed. I’ll just be mad at her instead, for making me even think about this.”
Note that only the tiniest bit of this internal monologue is really about Lulu. A whole lot more of it is Aunt Mary trying to hold onto her inner stability in the face of a challenge.
Dr. Steve, in the article that started this thread, talked about recognizing that other people have their own realities. He didn’t talk about making judgments about them, just recognizing that whatever is happening in their heads is personal to them. And that a relationship, if it’s going to be “real” and have potential to develop, is going to require that recognition. As we get to know each other better, we may learn why they think and feel the way they do. But we can’t change their entitlement to their own state of feelings, thinking, beliefs, etc. If they are inclined to restructure anything, they have to do that for themselves.
As that applies to what you might perceive as a social minefield here, while you’re learning to be assertive and honest and self-caring, it might be helpful for you to understand that you’re interpreting other people’s reactions out of your own state. And vice versa.
So people who might get angry with you because they feel you are not regarding someone’s feelings are showing you something about what’s important to them now. The personal needs they’re concerned with, and how that directly affects their definitions of what’s “bad.” (Someone who’s been starved for approval or even acknowledgement is going to have some sore spots, a need for sympathy and encouragement, and likely project those needs on other people.)
I know that, as you read this, you can certainly relate to those feelings. But right now, you’re working on something else. Which involves standing up for yourself, being heard, not taking any crap. So what you “see” from that state is related to what you’re working on.
Our issues and our states are not just one thing. There are a lot of layers to our psyches, and we move around them. Your gratitude toward the people who stayed with you and encouraged you didn’t come from the place where you’re working with anger, but the place where you needed acceptance. So it’s not just one thing, but right now anger is where you’re growing as a person. The anger is fascinating to you, and you’re fascinating to yourself too. Who could blame you? You like a big strong flower bursting in bloom, finally.
What I’m saying here about us talking to ourselves doesn’t mean that we don’t communicate. Or that we don’t affect each other. We do. And we particularly do with people who are in states that are related to our states. Or states that are part of our normal repertoire. Or who are working on the same issues. Or whose basic personality is similar to ours.
By affect, I don’t mean that it’s always pleasant. A prickly person triggering another prickly person can be pretty difficult to resolve, unless one of them agrees to be the calm one until the other person calms down, and then takes his or her turn to be the complain-y, blame-y one. That’s one of the rules of the universe in relationships; you both can’t be mad at the same time, or nothing ever gets resolved.
So I’m wandering far afield her, and I want to wind this up with something about Donna. She did a really, really smart thing when she started this blog. She only made one rule, and you’ll occasionally see her drop in to enforce it. We have to be supportive of one another. That’s not always easy when we disagree or someone is clearly being either abusive or self-destructive. But the way I handle it is to remind myself that everyone is doing the best they can. We’re all at our own stages of healing, all moving toward clarity and peace in our own ways. And it helps me to remember that the way people talk to other people is a mirror image of the way they talk to themselves.
That last one is particularly useful when I’m dealing with abusive people. Which thankfully is not something we have to deal with much here on LoveFraud.
So I hope all this makes sense. If you can understand this, you can let yourself off the hook, as well as almost everyone else. It reduces your judgments about other people to something pretty simple, like are they good for you or not. And that kind of judgment makes it pretty easy for you to evaluate your choices about what you need to do to take care of yourself. Again, it becomes about you, not them. What you want in your life or not.
Okay I’m off to bed. I hope I haven’t completely muddied the water here. I’m not trying to rush you down the path, and I’m not saying that we’re ever entirely free of blaming. It’s part of the healing process, the first reaction in anger, and life is full of stubbed toes and traffic jams. But as our anger moves up the processing ladder, it becomes easier to let people be who they are and make decisions that are about us, not them. Because that’s getting a grip on what’s real and what’s in our power.
Sweet dreams.
Kathy
Kathy
I re read your posts often and I’m getting the exact information I need to process this further, thanks..the bit about needing acceptance really groks into place.
To be accepted in the rage is transformative, that is why I’m so emphatic about staying in connection when someone gets angry, even abusive …maybe what they are really saying is Help me I’m in a rage and I don’t know what to do…and in an open forum like this if someone ignores it, then someone else will take it up…it’s risky because what if no one picked it up and the angry person goes away feeling shame on top of rage and is further damaged??
we are okay with sadness, fear, happiness…but not with anger…which unhealed comes out very raw, and all over the place (not an excuse for name calling but I can see there is a thin line, and a few falls are nessecary before balance resumes?) if anyone name called me I would respond happily..grrr!!but yes it could descend into an ugly soap opera!!but so what, as long as it comes back around…Donna would intervene and all would swing back to relative safety
It’s not our responsibility to bring people through their feelings, I know that…it’s an open forum not a virtual therapy blog, or twitter, but it takes probably less energy to just be the calm one, if someone kicks off rather than pull away…in anger too…2 angry people=no chance (thanks Kathy for that really clear anaysis)
my anger was screaming “I want a human being not a scientist talking about different realities and psychobabble ” it was a tantrum. I want human beings and I want them NOW…if you don’t come now I will leave! (horrible because I would leave myself with nothing…nothing)
I was crying, and in an awful state, you would not nessecarily pick that up from my posting….
maybe this is a developmental stage I never completed…but I’m deffinitely working through it here…then I saw shabbys little conversations with herself and it was like a baby in a cot playing..(sorry shabby this is only my interpretation!!) and it just melted me into recognition of something very very old that needed healing…I wanted to protect her, and observe her and watch over her…I don’t know if I had that as a child..i dont know, but that is what I gave myself..the right to be as angry as I wanted because I knew I WAS that little baby in the cot….and I’m innocent…this anger is innocent…and a result of being duped by a P..
Shabby voiced that innocence so purely, it actually hit me straight in the heart like an arrow, and no mistake it was a feeling of love and wonderment, that such innocence can survive…and the anger is in relation to how VIOLATED this innocence has been…I am truly outraged that anyone would stoop to destroy such beauty and fragility…it’s a travesty that makes me want to shoot up heroin
My intellect is ahead of my emotional development…that’s why the healing is on an emotional level for me….it may be the other way around or more equal in others….so my responses can be spiky, snooty, aloof and unfriendly but it’s rage…and I’m sorry because what I really need is healing yet end up driving people away.
the rage has given way to sadness today, lots of tears but it’s okay because I have hit the beauty bit inside my heart, that even though I have been partially destroyed by that P I still love this world, and it’s still a wonderful place and I am still an innocent person, and I resolve to mind myself really well today with cups of tea, people I love around me and I choose to let the tears flow…Kathy thanks so so so so much.
Just got off the phone to self defence class instructor!!! it’s awesome because he is a psychotherapist AS WELL!!!! I told him the situation and he was so understanding about the way anger needs an outlet, and that is what he is all about….the method is Krav Maga (whatever that is) he said any age can learn it, any fitness level, he has people in their 60s doing it..yay!
bulletproof-krav maga is awesome. It is the self defense that the Israeli special forces uses for it’s military. They offer it at the martial arts gym by me. I am getting ready to join. I may take some classes in addition to boxing and muay thai kickboxing! Have fun with that. It’s a good outlet for emotions and stress. I have a lot of anger issues too due to my job and I have to have a way to release it. I have proved that internalizing it all is not doing me any good at all. It’s bad for my health and the reason I have been gaining tons of weight and holding on to it.
Hi Psyche,
Just saw your message from 6/15 and want to reply.
“I think I didn’t really sense how much you’re hurting when I first read this, and I don’t know how I could have missed it.”
Thank you for your compassion and supportive encouragement. It’s very hard to “unslump” myself, to get myself out of the mud. Let me share the process of unslumping:
First, I have a very dependent attitude ingrained from childhood because I didn’t develop a sense of trust and security in my caretakers. Having a clingy feeling tward parents who were absent (and I’m not even blaming them, it’s just what is) when I most needed them.
Then, I transferred that clingy dependence onto my spouse who provided a semblance of family, home, security,and love that I did not have before. Now, leaving that “security” is terrifying because I don’t have my own center of gravity to fall back on. I am all wrapped up thinking HE is the source of protection and security. (wrong.)
Second issue is anger. I was trained and conditioned by a very “big”, tyrannical, aggressive father to repress my real feelings. I saw him hurt my mother, I felt his rage when he hit me when I was an adult for disobeying his irrational rules, and I knew deep down the severe consequence of saying “no” to him. So my method of dealing with my anger was to bring it underground, withdraw, and then feel GUILTY about feeling angry at this all powerful, omnipotent being on whom I depended. Very sad. It is not easy to unlearn that belief/habit.
Now that I have good cause to be angry at husband’s trespasses against my rights, needs, dignity, feelings–I don’t openly get angry. When I DO get angry, in that moment I instantly go on withdrawal. I don’t GO FORWARD and confront him about it, or speak up for myself, or say no. What is most natural to most people, which is to say, “Hey, cut that out!” is extremely hard for me. I feel the anger and resentment inside, but later inevitably feel GUILTY that I was angry, and fear I’ll be punished for having my point of view.
THAT’S where my mind is my enemy.
That’s where I want to become more conscious and do what you are saying–let myself feel what I feel. Unlearn the old habit of turning OFF the angry feeling which is in fact self-protective where my boundary has been rudely crossed, and say ‘no” or “back off.”
I heard this singer sing a song “It’s Not So Bad”, from a little girl’s point of view to her mom, saying I’ll do anything to make YOU happy, I’ll do anything to make myself invisible so you have less to worry about, it’s ok if you don’t have time to play with me, I know your worries are more important, and really “it’s not so bad” how lonely and aandoned and scared I feel and how much I need your attention and affection. She sang the refrain in a plaintive, sad little kid voice that touched me to the core.
So I feel that I am too generous with forgiveness, excuses, explanation, or justification of husband’s bad behavior. My compassion is not warranted because it is not reciprocated. It’s that simple. I repeatedly FORGET and MINIMIZE his rude, hurtful, mean, selfish, threatening, aggressive behaviors. Why? Because I put my needs second and believe “it’s not so bad.”
What I want to learn is how be a real B*Y*TCH! LOL When necessary–with ugly N’s and Spaths who cross the line. Need to learn how to let the claws come out, even remember that I DO HAVE them.
It’s not easy to change my default passive, meek, helpless nature.
Thanks again for your supportive message.
DW
Legal question–
My lawyer is waiting to get back discovery documents. I just sent him a summary of joint expenses I want help with.
Please tell me your experience/opinion on the request:
I want H to split the joint expenses: joint car/house insurance, family medical/dental, child’s summer camp and sports travel/hotel expenses, house maintenance tree removal cost. I’ve paid for all this in full and it adds up!
I want H to split the mortgage payments and the family medical ins. till the divorce. I’ve been paying the full mortgage past 2 yrs of separation, and he’ll benefit from the value of house equity.
He shirked his child support responsibility in April, June, and lowered c.s. amount in May. $&^%$^%
Would asking him to share mortgage payments negatively impact my wish to keep the house?
Also, daughter hinted the other day that “maybe” she would want to live with dad instead of me, without making eye contact with me, and without wanting to talk about it more. I smell foul play on his part. If he could get physical custody, he would recieve c.s. from me, which I know he just HATES paying because in his twisted mind makes him not be on top or have power over me.
I sent the lawyer the numbers–it seems simple math, and expenses should be shared. I don’t want to give this more energy than it deserves.
Am I missing anything?
Thank you.
erin1972
you are doing boxing and kick boxing!! yes Krav maga seems a good move, I’ve been doing a bit of research, it’s amazing because women can fight off big strong men by using the force coming at ya! boing!!!!gone!! yes I can’t stand the gym, exercises bore me, but there is something about pink boxing gloves and padded mats, something about a clean punch punch punch movement…it’s very satisfying, it might hit the spot to release this deadly poison…he said it’s a way of getting fit without even realising it because it is so interesting…it fell into my lap, that’s the spooky thing, suddenly I was on the phone talking to a guy about it…it’s a perfect fit. Doesnt start till july but I can keep walking till then…hey I think ‘synchronicity’ happened here.