This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
DancingWarrior….Your description of “it’s not so bad” is beautiful, innocent and heartbreaking.
I just want to envevlope you in a huge big loving hug and if that is too creepy for you just take my appreciation for sharing such a vulnerable part of yourself.
Meet your sister, I am clingy in the same way, dependent in the same way for the same reasons…trust your body…pay less attention to the mind..how does it feel…until you feel it…in the gut, deep down where the pain also resides in relation to your parents…the bitch will come (wild horses won’t stop her!!!) and I for one will try and be here for you when she does!
bulletproof-I haven’t started yet. I hope to take my introductory class tomorrow. I can’t officially enroll until my next paycheck because it’s more expensive than my current gym on the Tulane University campus. I get tired of working out around skinny college girls who look at me like I have 3 heads. I am trying to get in the army and go into police work, so I need to lose 100lbs. I bike and walk right now. I can’t run again until I lose 40 lbs cuz it hurts my knee. I just got p90x too and I’m going to do my first dvd this evening.
DancingWarrior, what are your attorneys suggesting? Don’t do what I did and keep trying to be the “good guy” or “peacemaker.” Take him to the frigging CLEANERS!!! There is no such thing as negotiating with a spath and they will do their darndest to fly in the face of Court Orders, etc. Take that poopie-head to the MAT!!!
In my mind, there isn’t enough alimony or child support that will ever pay to repair the damage that spaths inflict, so whatever they have to pay will never be enough. It’s not really about the money, but since spaths don’t have any understanding of “principles,” their wallet or pocketbook is the only thing they understand.
Brightest blessings to you!!
Bulletproof, huge hug is welcome, and hug back at you.
Ah, I’ll let you know about the emerging bitch. Right now I am still grappling with the fact that I was, and still am in a way, AFRAID…AFRAID?…of my own (former) husband? Huh? That hasn’t settled in me yet, and that’s freaking me out.
Then…we’ll see.
Buttons,
“Stupid” doesn’t even begin to describe me. Last year I hired a mediator with my own money, which he claimed he did not have, the idiot, so that the mediator would prove to him that he had to pay me child support. Hello! Why? To avoid taking him to court? Why? To avoid conflict and be nice. And I sat there hour afater hour going over stupid financial affidavits to come up with the answer we BOTH knew about how much child support he had to pay.
Back then I was unsure about the divorce. I was so emotionally confused, lost, scared, so I still participated in the so messed up dynamic of the marriage. I let him do just what he did in marriage–play games, play the victim, control and intimidate me.
Haven’t heard back from lawyer yet, but I am sure he’ll address these issues all at once next time we speak as he waits to get discovery papers from H.
Sigh.
I was such a softie. And he walked all over me for that.
I live for the day when he’ll pull one of his temper tantrums on me, do the aggressive obnoxious threatening act–when I can look at him calmly, and yawn. Or laugh and walk away. Anything that says he has no “spell” over me.
For now, I have lots of work to do inside to deal with the fear and anger.
And Buttons, I’ll do my best to take him to the cleaners.
erin1972, bullet, DW, buttons, everybody 🙂
I went to the gym today, OMG!
I’m hoping I can turn into a real b*tch when
I get stronger, ahahhahahahaha.
i have to find myself some ass kicking class!
Yeah, that’s the ticket!!!!
DancingWarrior
You have just started the ball rolling on when you say you are afraid…of what?…yes maybe your (former) husband…or maybe of your next feelings after the fear, through the fear…….and they are signals telling you what’s up…being human is like being a cluster of sensitive whiskers sniffing out ways of being…. tentacles feeling the way as accurately as we will allow…I love hearing about people’s feelings because that’s where I’m learning….The P totally fooled, ridiculed, humiliated, laughed at, pulled them off one by one….
it is really really great to hear you say you are afraid! your sensitive whiskers are still working! trust em, You are so much more than the peacemaker! and maybe you about to find out what else you are alongside that too…be afraid, be very afraid!!!haha
Erin, shabby, buttons
Erin ignore the skinny girls, I feel sorry for the skinny girls in the Gym as all the hunky males are checking out the booty, you can feel the disrespect in the air. They just check eachother out….ick..a few of them will be on lovefraud soon….but I HATE the meat market vibe, always did even when I looked good…now I cannot wait to be flippin men off me, and learning how to get out of choke holds and surprising the enemy with a sudden move in the wrong direction POW…take that you slimy ….poopiehead? eh …does not sound quite right Buttons !!! calling a psychopath a poopiehead?….mmmmh they wouldnt like that!! ha ha
ZAP, POW, BANG, WALLOP!!!
Erin police work? army? just sounds so interesting, good luck with the workout this evening, it feels so good to be moving around again.
Shabbychick,
WOOHOO! You go girl! Yes, get stronger in whatever way is enjoyable. I think of it as taking care of me. Keep going!
Bulletproof,
This is what I am hoping to learn, bullet–and it’s a BIG goal. No matter what others do–whoever it may be, relative, s.o., stranger, friend–no matter their obnoxiousness or meanness, aggression, stupidity, insanity, it DOES NOT have to affect the way I see reality, who I am, what I feel or think.
That is my goal–to discipline my mind and ground my feelings so I can stay a placid lake, undistrubed by others’ actions.
“For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.”
No kidding. I’m just reeling from an e-mail exchange yesterday with a young woman who has connected with an activist cause I’m in. On Sunday, a bunch of us had brunch, and she proudly recounted her blog victory over some guy. Apparently, he closed up all his fake i.d.s and left “town.” All good.
Here’s the interesting part: I was impressed with who this guy was. He’s being sued. Since she knows so much about him now, I asked her if she’d be interested in getting him served.
I won’t go into detail about her response, but she was completely insulted, appalled at my “presumptuousness,” and protective of her boundaries as someone who is “not a joiner.”
In other words, don’t ask her to do anything truly effective. It was all about “the primacy of her experience.”
Apparently, activist movements are not for bringing out change, but for scoring personal points that one can then brag about over dinner.
Someone forgot to tell me. Because she and her gay “boyfriend” repeatedly claim they are victims of my callous disregard for them.
Who? I forgot their names already.
HELP! Court tomorrow Smear campaign begun.
Lawyer sent me email saying H thinks I caused the breakdown of marriage for reasons we can discuss later.
I asked on phone what that means, and he read to me what H’s lawyer wrote “she goes to naked retreats and has intercourse with other men”
I was mortified. The two of us went to a couples retreat together and at some point they called it “clothing optional” but he was right there with me the whole time. “Having intercourse with other men” is so humiliating, and to have my lawyere now think this is who I am just devastates me. I am so upset.
I don’t know how I’ll go in there and be able to be in same BUILDING with him knowing what an a**hole he is. I feel so embarrassed before my lawyer now, thinking he may think it’s true. I told him it’s outrageous and not true, and that before we spearated we went to a retreat together.
What should I do? On his discovery document he also said that he’d call some people from this retreat as witnesses at a trial–which is totally ridiculous because there is nothing they would testify to. Just the fact that he put that in writing makes it seem like it’s valid.
God how I hate him.
Any words of advice how I stay calm when he has done this offensive nasty disgusting attack?
WARRIOR:
Girl…….calm down!
First off….do you life in a no fault state?
If so……blah, blah, blah……so what…..you could have fucked a marcian or a tulip!
If you live in a fault state….his claims show NOTHING!
Please DO NOT go on defensive. Who gives a rats’ ass what your attorney thinks…..he’s there to get y0ou a fair and equitable divorce….NOT to judge you.
Is it illegal to go to a ‘nudist’ camp?
NO!
So….who cares…..don’t go on defensive……take the offensive.
Take his remarks to show you ‘how’ he’s going to fight! If you react….he’ll pull more out of his sleeve……just to watch you dance for him.
If he makes these claims…..it’s UP TO HIM to show why they are pertinent in this matter?
So what…..you were trying to work on your marriage and he suggested this destination retreat?
No sex was involved. (anyone who knows anything about nudist retreats KNOWS they are NOT a sex orgy).
Don’t get emotional to your attorney, offer a simple explanation as above and drop it.
It wasn’t like you flew him to Nevada whore houses and you all had group sex in a elementry school playground.
Just tell your attorney…..(only if it matters in proceedings) that he can substantiate his claims of adulterous affairs.
If he can’t then DON”T ADDRESS IT!
Instruct your attorney that you WILL NOT participate in a ‘take down’ campaign. If spath can show some documentation, great…..(guarentee it will never be heard from again).
I was accused of all sorts of things…..one thing he kept bringing up was ME draining 50K out of our account. HE ACTUALLY did this and I just submitted the bank records and HIS signiture and a deposit slip and simply said….I will no longer address unsubstantiated claims.
If they keep us on the defensive…..we can’t attack, we are busy defending ourselves againslt wild claims…..(I assure you, it won’t stopo)…..
So REMOVE YOURSELF…..if he can produce video of you sexing up the unknown lover…..great….address it.
DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING IN THIS DIVORCE PERSONALLY!!!!!
This latest didn’t declare him the asshole…..he’s always been THIS asshole……
If you expect him to fight fair…..your in for a looooong haul and a lot of heartache….
Warrior…..has that bitch arrived yet?
THIS IS WAR!!!!! Take no prisoners.