This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
one step, jazzy129
Venting is letting the hate flow, and hate is a raging river…DO NOT dam up the river…it will rip your insides out
it’s beyond ordinary anger which is a signal something is wrong, pushing us into hopefully constructive action…we are stuck in a huge truckload of hate that was dumped on us by the Psychopath/sociopath
I didnt have hate like this before him, and I resolve to work through it, and it’s huge.
it’s the after effect of an encounter with these devastating morons.
Hate is an energetic emotion, a passion…(the spaths absorb hatred by osmosis and it keeps their battery full of energy) whilst it’s part of us…perhaps it’s not ALL of us, if it is then we are not expressing it out….out…out damn you psychopath!
My hate is showing me I can be just as MEAN as he was.. back at him. But it’s a dreadful waste of time hating a moron, who is walking around out there like a big stupid alien unaware of the trail of destruction in his wake…but he/she is a great big gobdaw stoopid knuckleheaded blockhead after all..and my hate is perhaps also my unlived potential refusing to back down and die.
yeah the joking gets out of hand. it’s hilarity, hysterics, it’s the hate…got to find a way of using this energy…or it’s using me
one step
sorry to hear how tough it is for you, you continue bravely to put the words on what you are feeling, how you are experiencing the aftermath of HER. TRAPPED is a truth that sits uncomfortably on me, but trapped is how it seems….I sense in my heart, I sense in my soul that there is a way forward out of this..I think we are extrordinary for continuing to dialogue despite the odds, keep talking, you are a voice I look out for, and value.
bp – the physical pain has just made me crazy this last while. it ties me up and messes with my head. it’s been relentless for weeks now. i think that it has thrown me into a depression now.
i had been getting so much more grounded before this recent pain. really a lot more present, and more present to the pain in my mind and body. your above two posts have given me a smile and brought me, even for a moment, back inside myself.
ty.
i love your words for the ppath, especially ‘devastating moron.’
and yes that’s what it’s all about: hate. I was thinking yesterday that I am ready to see what I can do with it. besides driving down there and doing her in. yesterday i really had a strong vision of beating her. not like the cartoon vision of it i used to have, or the 101 visions of how to kill a spath I had (compulsively) in the first few months after finding out who/what she was. I really saw myself beating her. of course i didn’t get to the part where the cops arrest me. but i heard the contact with her body. and i was in wonder of that drive to damage her. intellectually, i know that this would probably not help me in any way (even with removing the legal consequences from the picture for a moment). I fought back against my sister when i was 26… I tower over her, but she is a ball of narcissism, damage and fury to recon with. I just yelled at her, up close and in her face. it WAS amazingly freeing by all accounts. She had dogged and badgered me for most of my life. I had been away from her for about 8 years when i did that blast…at a family funeral (well, not right AT the funeral). I remember she was hitting on our young step cousin. sigh. and he came to me i told him to firmly and squarely say no to her….but to watch out, because she would ‘get’ him.
hate. i hate what my dad has done. to everyone around him. my relationship with him has hurt me in ways that have warped me. i was about to say that he acts in no way like a normal loving person does – but then i remembered that that is one of the spath’s lines (pro-jerk-shun). she must have had someone say that to her a few times.
hate. i too have never carried such hate. i think the anger is the hate trying to get out. maybe that’s why the anger feels diff than other angers. but surely it is also twined with the unlived aspects of my life and the frustration i feel at this time. i hate her, i hate her with a passion. so, i guess the good news is – i feel passion. smile.
unlived parts of my life – you know that was what the spath was about – when i thoguth she was this lovely kinky literate artful funny weird boy – bringing out parts of my that have been suffocated in the banality of ‘normal’. got what i didn’t bargain for though. makes me a bit scared (or is that scarred) about some of those parts of myself having space in my life. there is a part of me that came bounding up in to the light when i was with ‘him’….and she has surely run for the hills at this time. i can’t seem to communicate with that part of myself…she’s not talking or i am not saying the right things to connect with her. she does not hate, she hurts and moves on. but the hurt stays within her, and shapes her. she angers, quite definitely, but she does not hate.
i hate. with a passion i have never known. is it wrought out of powerlessness and protection; is it wrought by witnessing a heinous evil and wanting to destroy it, because of what it is?
i have spent the last couple of weeks in a lot of emotional pain – my friendships have suffered so much in the aftermath of the ppath. i am watching people pull away, feeling them pull away and feel powerless to do anything about it. one of them i do not want to loose. and it is another ‘thing’ on my very substantial ‘list of things’ to deal with, when i am out of pain. i can’t completely trust my perceptions when in this much pain. i know that, and i do not want to drive this one friend further away – eiyee, i am walking on eggshells.
my mom – I MISS MY MOM, both because i have not seen her in months, and becuase of her dementia…that loss goes on and on. i have to see her, i am going out of my mind with not seeing her, but i don’t know how to do it without seeing my dad. and him – given the hate i am harbouring, i could say something to him i do not want to. an old friend is in town – i am going to ask him if he will pick mom up and bring her to me. i don’t know ow to handle this thought – i am not going to ‘take it’ for effing father again and pretend that the reason i am not around is my negligence of my relationship with her. it’s him and she is demented and telling her that always feels like such an unkindness as she cannot compute and it would upset her – that poor woman was deluded years before the dementia; she has been such good little supply for him, and has tried tirelessly to make me so also. i can’t explain narcissism to her; she wouldn’t be able to comprehend it.
hate. big basket of it strapped to my back. Big big basket. riding my back.
Dancing warrior,
Couldn’/t get to this thread til today—with a restatrunt you can ask for BREAD & other food orders. So if he says he serves 100 of hamburgers a day and orders 600 pounds of meat and 2400 buns daily, you can show he is lying about his sales.
By looking at his food orders you can tell what his sales are pret6ty well. $$$$$ in food X 3=gross income + drinks if it is a bar or soda place.
Hope that helps.
Hey can anyone tell me when u met a new guy are u looking or hoping to feel the feeling u got when u first met the Sociopath, I do look for that feeling and I’m not feeling nothing from the new guys that I meet. It’s almost like i numb they give no excitement! Is the excitement what got me in that bad situation any way. I need to know do anyone else have these feelings
Luv:
I am no relaionship expert…..FOR SURE! I’ve only had ONE toxic 28 year spathy relationshit….
That said….
I’m thinking the excitement we had with spaths was chaos and drama….and always keeping us on the edge of our seats…..until they pull that seatr out from under us….
What goes up must go down…..
I think when we ‘grow’ with someone…it happens gradually. If we find pleasure in laughter and smiles and connection….this is a healthier way to live….it’s more of a balance. But…as we know now…smiles and laughter is NOT an every moment thing.
This may seem boring to us….because we have been conditioned that exciting is great.
Some excitiement is good….but all the time is not a balance.
It’s like eating chocolate for every meal….tastes good/great for the first week….then we get a tummy ache.
It might be cool to hear from Donna about how a new/healthy relationship ‘feels’ and feels as it grows.
Matt too and others who have turned the corner and found love again.
I’m still in the nuclear testing grounds…..
Don’t rush anything….I do believe…it’ll happen WHEN we are ready….and not necessarily when we WANT it!
Luv, I agree, if you INSTANTLY get that EXCITING feeling it is more likely the “love bomb” of a psychopath, b ecause real affection is built a little at a time. That INSTANT excitement is a RED FLAG!
Luv 716:
An exciting sociopath?
As far as I am concerned, that’s a huge Oxymoron.
Once the seduction/lovebombing phase is over and their true colors are revealed, sociopaths are the most lazy, selfish, arrogant, boring, and predictable pieces of crap you will ever encounter.
Don’t mistake intensity for excitement….or bad/unpredictable behavior as excitement…..or poor impulse control for excitement.
These qualities are NOT excitement.
The excitement you are feeling in the beginning of a relationship is most likely a disordered personality who is spinning their dysfunction to give the appearance of an exciting person.
Sociopaths are very skilled at doing this, and it’s usually effective, too.
They almost always hook their target, unless you are AWARE of what’s going on and can see it for what it is.
Healthy men are steady, and are able to BUILD a relationship.
Dysfunctional men are “ALL IN” from the first 5 minutes of meeting you. And that’s the height of the relationship….it crumbles after that….it’s all downhill from there.
Having said all of that, I believe you should feel some initial attraction when you first meet someone.
There has to be some type of spark or chemistry to build off of, but it does NOT need to be a complete “FIREWORKS DISPLAY”.
Beware of someone who wants to give you a “FIREWORKS DISPLAY” within the first 5 minutes of meeting you…..that would be a red flag.
Actually, I may have been a little harsh in my post above.
I’ll admit, there may be some exciting sociopaths out there, after all.
They will definitely take you on a ride.
The thing is….it’s always going to be THEIR RIDE.
And when it’s time for you to get off, they will kick you off their ride.
And you will be left with your head spinning and wondering….what happened to the ride????
Next time I get on a roller coaster ride it will at an amusement park..