This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Hello all,
Got stuck feeling compassion for him and loss and guilt. Wish I could stay angry. Please help me get perspective with FOG if you can.
Found his notes when we separated living under same roof 2 yrs ago, how he tried to adapt to my “rules” and how disorienting it must have been.
My heart breaks for HIM–I picture him alone in his apt, waking up, going to bed, having dinner, dead silence. While I enjoy hearing our D laugh, watching her grow, caring for her, having a dog even, and the stability of the same home. My T told me though I may be very motivating for him to change, it’s not about “how much he loves me” or that he doesn’t WANT to, but that he CAN’T change. And the fear of abandonment makes him behave even worse.
Even his lies to lawyers about my having affairs–I can understand that he feels angry, or afraid, or jealous, or helpless, and this is his way of feeling in control. I can’t stay angry. I feel sorry and sad.
Please help me with this–I saw my toe with an old scar, and melted. When we were happy newlyweds, a Pyrex measuring cup broke and a piece sliced my toe, which bled like crazy–it was early morning and he took me to a walk in clinic, and they put stitches, and he was so concerned and caring; he used to rub the soles of my feet and call it “his leather”; he had warm nicknames for me and a great sense of humor. The guilt is getting to me–I feel like he was and is a good man, with limitations. I feel like I am ungrateful and throwing out what many would gladly have–a family, a home, security, a loyal spouse.
I can’t see him as all bad. Can’t live in anger. Not denying the pain I felt from his behaviors, but accepting that that’s who he is.
D told me that she doesn’t have to worry about going to college bec. he’ll pay for it even if she wants to go to Yale for 8 yrs. I asked her did he mention HOW he’d pay for it? She said from his dadn’s inheritance. His dad is very rich and very old. I wish he’d put that in writing in the divoce settlement.
I do this regularly. I go forward with SEPARATING from him bec. he won’t adapt to my point of view, and then I RETREAT in guilt, feeling sad, anxious, wrong. My T says it’s the old habit of not being allowed to stand up to big father, being forbidden to challenge family, to have a different opinion, to be okay with disagreeing and saying so. Like I have to PUNISH myself for thinking bad thoughts against the “oppressor.” Because HE won’t allow me to be myself, to have my own feelings or opinions or needs, must obey him unquestioningly–then HE’d punish me to stand up to him, thus I punish MYSELF with the guilt.
With each legal step of disentangling, this GUILT gets triggered big time as I’m closer and closer to cutting the last tie that holds me. The closer I get with each decisive legal step, the abyss over the precipice looks more horrible and deadly.
When my heart was breaking for him, all alone, in the winter, no place to go, cold and abandoned by me for his inexcusable lies, I wept, called him, asked to seek counseling, insisted that I’d be there for him out of love and compassion. Little did I know about not just one, but two warm beds he was at the time juggling. It was simply a matter of moving belongings from one woman to the next to the next to the next, looking for the ONE who’d give and take what is given, no questions asked. And – since we all give and feel fed up with words to the point of emotional purging, we begin asking for actions in return, the actions I now get, just out of spite and to cause more misery: “You see! I am a decent man! you did not know how to appreciate me!”. Dancing, let him pay for the college, let him pay for it all for no amount of money can ever be restitution for the hurt he caused you and for the reason you read these posts.
DW – we won’t have to wait for oxy; I am going to reach through the computer and boink you myself!
the only reason to stay in anger if you don’t want to is to maintain boundaries. for some of us, it is the only way to do so, until the FOG breaks.
DO NOT FEEL SORRY FOR HIM; I FREAKING MEAN IT. STOP IT!!!
Have you read anything about Stockholm Syndrome? Think it might help you to put your feelings in the FOG realm into perspective.
I am getting the feeling it isn’t guilt – but fear. Yes, the abys is there, but DW it is nowhere near as shitty as living with him has been. there might be a time of hardship, but you will come through this and be in a much better place than you are now.
KEEP GOING – with every step you get closer to freedom.
best and big hugs and another whack of the skillet.
one step
DancingWarrior:
Trust me when I say that you didn’t “find” the notes. He intended for you to find those notes. These creatures do nothing by accident. View it as him giving you a mind-fuck in abstentia.
As for the college tuition — view it as caso cerrado (case closed). Speaking as someone who worked and borrowed to put himself through 3 degrees at top schools — if your daughter want to get an education she’ll find a way to get an education. Avoiding any “gift” from the S-ex is wise — because it will come with strings that your daughter would never be able to break.
I say, all papers must be drawn up. Seek protection and yes, get the money if you can. What strings? He is the father, he must provide for his child. In our fear we let them off the hook too easily. It is never easy to fight them, probably best to outsmart them if possible. But, I totally agree with Matt: they make sure there are NO accidents. You “find” things because they are there to be “found”. It’s the way Ps communicate.
Y’all are so good reality checks.
I should have the cluster B symptoms tatooed on my brain. Or make a tune to sing them to:
_____________________________
violations of the law; lying and deception; aggressiveness; disregard for safety of others; irresponsibility in family environments; lack of remorse
_____________________________
Matt, thanks for that “mind fuck in absentia” He did not “leave” a SINGLE bank statement. I just can’t BELIEVE anyone can be so devious! AND he plants these comments in daughter being sure she’ll repeat them to me as I way to spite me?
When a contractor screwed up our chimney that leaked with 1st rain, he’d tell me how he wanted to mess with his van, egg his van, or put an apple in his muffler, or mess with his brakes somehow. Then I thought it was all silly jest. Now that I see him lie to tarnish me in court–it’s the same vengeful thing, only it’s against his intimate partner for 21 yrs, and mother of his child.
One–do I need serious boinks on the head. Repeat regularly. THANK YOU!
GettingIt–in my fantasy I liked to think that he only wanted me. Well, he’s paranoid about stds and neurotic about cleanliness, so casual sexual encounters are not his thing. But in legal interrogatory he had to answer about dating sites, and I saw his ad. His ad was flippant, casual, title was “love stinks” and his picture, he put on a WIG!
I read the ad, and felt SAD for him. Yes, I felt, oh, he is so lonesome, he is desperately looking for some company. I genuinely felt sad for him. His photo also almost didn’t look like HIM I knew for 21 yrs–looked so cold, kind of angry, detached from the world. It didn’t look like HIM. Do you understand. The father of my child looked warm, kind, decent–a good guy you want to be around.
It’s helpful to talk to you all. Thanks.
DW, when I found out I had STD, he was Livid. Not with me of course, but with the SOB that “gave it to me”. He simply forgot to mention it was he who gave it to me and few others I was lucky enough not to contract. You should have seen the performance. It was Oscar worthy. Sexual Encounters were NEVER his thing….
DW – it is hard to get the different ‘people’ to stick together – the warm father of your child and this other one. do you remember us talking about zeroing in on some horrendous thing he did, and then remembering that whenever we can’t get the pieces to stick togehter?
you might want to give that a go.
keep going!
best
one step
p.s. and STOP thinking you can rescue him. boink!
DW xxx, I would agree with MATT in thinking long and hard about the effect that allowing a Narc or Spath to ‘pay’ for your daughter’s education.
Although it’s tempting – especially if you cannot afford it at all… we want the ‘best’ for our kids.
But this is actually not the best IMO.
There WILL be strings attached. WITHOUT a DOUBT!
If it even happens – he is making you all think kindly of him for something he hasnt and may never do right now….
You are also handing over important parental responsibilty to a dangerous person….I dont know if your daughter or anyone is able to resist the GUILT that beholds you to some one who WILL feel like they ‘GAVE you your education and so OWNS your adult life!” its painful….
I am saying this out of my own personal experience and not haveing a go at you (hugs).xx
Best to make sure that Child Support arrangements TO YOU are sufficient and regular in order for you to make ALL the financial decisions within YOUR family budget for YOUR family… if of course him JUST paying up can be acomplished without strings!!!
Oh the old ‘when I get my inheritance’ trick, it already has your daughter in a mindset of holding out for something that may or may not happen!…:( Gosh I hate these creatures!
jazzy129 and all
Hi there, your existance sounds similar to my own. Looking after myself, hanging with the cats, taking long walks in the summer heat and really feeling for the first time a coming BACK to myself for longer periods. It’s a luxury to be safe. The cats are so beautiful to be with. I am getting pure love back for caring for them…
The flashbacks subside for a while.
Every fraudulent moment I spent with the P, plays over with more information, more memories…. the special times, the moments we shared that I felt were true now end up as flashbacks. The trauma for me was being lied to on that scale…it’s beyond words…the stealing my money is NOT the thing that replays, it’s the sequence of events that led to the robbery…the set up..the grooming..the ACT he put on….he even said to me as I announced I wanted out of the relationship…”I just can’t keep this up, I can’t do it anymore” what he meant was he couldn’t convince me anymore, the game was up.
DW
It’s fantastic that you can describe your feelings, great to hear you be up front about ‘feeling sorry for him’. I feel no sympathy for the P today however, and the anger keeps that in place for now!
You have me wondering was he just misunderstood, that deep down there is a caring soul!!! how dangerous….I would be so mixed up and confused if the P suddenly paid me back, asking forgiveness…I would’nt know what to do…listen to your gut, the hunches and look at the track record…but something tells me if you can be so forthright in describing how you feel, you just can’t go wrong again…you are well and truly on to him and what he is like…keep describing it and interacting with it….
GettingIt… the STD thing, that’s exactely what the P would have done…he would have turned it on ME…now how crazy that would leave me is the thing..but that’s what they do…calmly reverse the blame, accountability, responsibility with us…never their doing. That is the essence of the evil…energetically it’s like “being crushed”…like I am going insane by degrees, but it is really being gaslighted by degrees…it takes a huge amount of presence to finally get that…I manage it in small amounts.