This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
‘morning bp. early ish here. have been up for a couple of hours – think pain woke me. nationalt holiday here. am going out for a very special day with a childhood friend to the place i grew up. really looking forward to it.
i am so tired. too much pain. i had another interview yesterday – suspect i will be short listed. have made it to being the #2 candidate for 2 jobs. the process for these jobs takes weeks. i am tired. will take today and most of tomorrow off. i need to get out in the country and think and just be int he quiet.
i am very angry at the ppath. flashbacks have a new quality right now, and each one ends in anger at the deception and lies, and a sort of shock at the horror of it all. seems the flashbacks change every once in a while. and i think being turned down for these jobs triggers them – trying to get in to a new life and failing seems to really make the resentment rise up at the ppath and the damage she wrought in me. feel trapped in my body/life/mind.
i am lonely. broke, sad, traumatized, in pain. and sleep deprived. i am going to see if i can get a nap before my friend comes.
hope you have a good day.
On-step, I am sorry you’re in so much pain.x But I wanted to give share my awe at you for what you are continuing to accomplish x. amazing. Oh please rest rest rest if you need to! x Have a lovely rest of the day wether you re-shedule with your friend and nap or have a fun distracting day.xx
Hi one step
Good morning! not nice being woken by pain. your plan for the day sounds interesting, it might trigger a few things, family stuff tends to…I say let it…just be there at the end of this day for yourself…with compassion.
I hear the tiredness, the pain, it’s probably linked to all that is happening inside and out. Yes to the countryside idea and remember you don’t HAVE to be full of energy…you can be in the country and be tired, and be in pain. Rest, peace, quiet, tranquility, safe from the spath…that’s what you need.
Flashbacks are the most amazing thing…never had this flashback thing before and I have had other traumas…I have made friends with my flashbacks because we spend so much time together.
I let the video roll and now a days my ones have also changed from remembering the actual textures of things, scenes, where things were in the scene..I have total recall of minute details like the way the curtains hung, the layout of his house, the kitchen….where everything was kept…the tiles on the floor..the garden…it’s SO clear it’s like it’s more real than what is actually in front of me.
now they are full of painful information, showing me where I didn’t listen to my intuition, these flashbacks are all about the relationship to intuition…if you watch the flashbacks they will tell you what you missed at the time, but what you knew at some level at the time…they tune into the AVAILABILITY of information…it was there to be seen, but I chose to go further into the LIE…why? the flashbacks will tell you why as well!! they are packed with information that no therapist could give you. Layers of information, and it shows you each layer….it’s ditressing if you cannot bear what it’s trying to show you…
My flashbacks are my intuition, my intelligence, my survival support system….from SHOCK to gently giving you back bits of the reality step by step…if they are changing, then they are moving and progressing and WE are healing…
In my flashbacks I saw the deviousness laid bare, the lies are all exposed, the truth has been delivered and wholeness is once again a possibility IF you are brave enough to face the pain. So be tired, let the pain tell you something allow these flashbacks, they are conversations with the soul…leading you back to the person you once were WITH the trauma integrated nicely, in place, not dominating anymore but stashed as a valuable learning curve telling you evil exists and you are stronger for having met with it…if you meet it again you will know what to do.
flashbacks are maybe what the body does if it knows you are in danger. It literally takes snapshots of all the danger taking place knowing you are being lead further in and have no way of escape. Then when you are safe, all the photos start showing themselves with everything you needed to be wary of waving at you!!! we let ourselves at some level, override our innate sense that something is off…for some greater prize (for me, that of being loved)
bp – lovely post to me above. if this is what being stomping angry brings to one, then bring it on!
in my case the flashbacks are a lot about seeing the evil for what it was. you have to remember that i was delaing with a ‘host’ of characters…each one of them doing and saying different things to create drama and trauma. knowing that it was all one evil person is a big part of my flashbacks – seeing all the pieces fit in, seeing how she made this story up and manipulated everyone, seeing the moments of slipped mask (brought out in the nasty characters mostly, but a few times in the nice boy character).
goign to the country is never triggering in a neg way for me. i am aching for the land, and going there will fill me up. being with my old friend last year for the first time in 20 years was a very nurturing experience. i am hoping today will be the same. had hope to have the house a bit more cleaned up when he got here. not going to happen. rest is more important.
Something occurred to me in a flash at a very early hour this morning. Don’t know where Oxy, one_step and I were posting before (I can never find where I’ve posted) but missed this blog entry at the time and think it’s fitting.
“For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.”
We were talking about how the pathological IMAGINE they’re doing the right thing while doing something which in our eyes is so, so wrong (my ‘friend’ saying he stays friends with his exes, who he’s been using for sex, to MAKE IT RIGHT, as though being his friend after that is any kind of consolation or makes any sense).
I said at the end, “You have no empathy!” and he said, “What do you mean, no empathy?? I kept on hacking down the M6 to see you!!” But … he told me he loved me very much and that he wanted us to try again. He said he wanted to be there. Now I find out that he was only being EMPATHIC??
I get it now. He tells other people that he is so very kind and lets us rotten, mad, bunny boilers down gently out of the goodness of his heart, while AT THE SAME TIME telling US he loves us so very much, he wishes he lived with us, or in the next village, or that we could lay in his arms in his fishing boat. HA! He’s telling others he cannot IMAGINE how we got so over-attached to him without ANY encouragement (lies) from him, but he’s going to be kind to them now.
His ’empathy’ was actually protection of his self-image. He tells others it’s compassion, but it’s to prevent his lies coming out. Narcs don’t get the subtleties of compassion or empathy because it’s all about them only. There is only THEIR point of view. Emotional blinkers. He posted on his forum that he didn’t feel he should ‘force compassion’ as he only loved me ‘a little bit’. Not what he was telling me. And what’s loving someone a little bit? Not at all, is the truth.
He’s also written on his forum in the past that he doesn’t know what love is. He really doesn’t. It’s like in ‘Women who love Psychopaths’, where they want something or somebody and start to need it desperately, but there is no bond. There is NO understanding of a reciprocal, loving relationship.
I’ve dreamt he was a vampire, dressed up like Christopher Lee in true Hammer Horror ’50s style. Narcs are truly emotional vampires. It’s one way only.
Skylar, I deleted a post yesterday because it was personal about him and what he’s got up to in the past, and I know he’s read lovefraud before, but I would like to thank you for your post about sex with them being like rape. It spoke of my experience perfectly, as do most of your posts.
From ‘Denial of the True Self’ – Lowen.
-“As children, narcissists suffer what analysts describe as a severe
narcissistic injury, a blow to self-esteem that scars and shapes their personalities. This injury entails humiliation, specifically the experience of being powerless while another person enjoys the exercise of power and control over one…such a person (the powerless) could easily vow: ‘When I grow up, I’ll get power, and neither you nor anyone else will be able to do this to me again’. [Power helps one avoid feeling vulnerable and powerless, but when one seeks and attains power, one has control. And this inevitably leads to the cycle of parents controlling children.] It is the experience of humiliation that underlies narcissists’ striving for power. Through power, they believe they can wipe out the insult. Any challenge to their power of image threatens to make them feel powerless and evokes the fear of being humiliated. But power will not overcome one’s inferiority or ease an inner feeling of humiliation…power only serves to deny these feelings.”
-“Hysterics are often described as oversensitive, as exaggerating their feelings. Narcissists, on the other hand, minimize their feelings aiming to be ‘cool’…narcissistic predisposition is to depression, a sense of emptiness or no feeling, whereas in hysteria the predisposition is to anxiety…Victorian culture fostered strong feelings but imposed definite and heavy restraints on their expression, especially in the area of sexuality. This led to hysteria.
Our present day culture imposes relatively few restraints on behavior, and even encourages the ‘acting out’ of sexual impulses in the name of liberation, but minimizes the importance of feeling. The result is narcissism. One might also say that Victorian culture emphasized love without sex whereas our present culture emphasizes sex without love.”
I believe it’s to do with his relationship with his mother (as it often is with NPDs and sex addicted men). I pity him, which is a strange feeling to hold in my head concurrently with the knowledge of what he does to women. I wasn’t the only one he’s made suicidal. The irony is that my pity would make him very angry indeed, because he has to see himself as completely healthy. He likes you to feel sorry for what other women have done to him (the pity ploy) but not what’s wrong WITH him. So interesting.
Verity, My x spath has a heavy investment in his self- image as a nice guy. It is extreemly important to him that I continue to like him. I went through this stuff with him over and over again, for 7 years. He could steal my rent money for drugs, but when he came back around, I should continue to understand he was a nice guy.
The last time I saw him he said, “I’m sorry Kim. Can’t we be friends?” Ah, no.
I remember crying, one time, and he sneered at me, and berated me for crying. I looked at him and said, “no. This IS normal. This IS a normal response, under the circumstances. Take a good look. YOU are the one who is NOT NORMAL.” He just looked at me with no expression on his face. I think he realized then, that I was right, and WE BOTH knew it.
Hi Kim and thanks.
” … It is extremely important to him that I continue to like him.”
They lucked out there then, the pair of them, didn’t they? 😉
Yep, any tears, displays of sadness or depression with the one I knew was like a personal slight to him. He said it ‘turned him off’, even though he was often the cause. There was no concern, just contempt.
I loved your response to your ex.
verity,
I’m glad my posts are helpful to you.
“Denial of the True Self” looks very interesting. I may have to get it.
The mother component was certainly there for my exP as well.
He was substituting me for all the hate he felt for his mom.