This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Dear One, and Dancing Warrior,
Thanks One, she DID DESERVE A BIG BOINK!!!!!! Yes, DW, now go and “sin no more!” LOL (((Hugs))))
Glad that Matt told you what that finding the papers was all about….and every time you find yourself feeling sorry for him think of all the carp he has put you through unnecessarily during this divorce….all the stuff he has fed to the Daughter. I wouldn’t hold my breath until he bought her a packet of paper for school, much less put here through Yale. She will see when the time comes he will not keep his word. That is the thing that will show her what a piece of carp he is, when he dangles these “carrots” out for her and then jerks them in before they come true!
Be strong, sweetie!!!! Quit feeling sorry for his lousy arse! Don’t make me get the BIG skillet out!!! ((((hugs)))))
Uh OXy, put your skillet away darlen……not only do you have CRS….your on a time warp too.
DW has come a loooong ways since the above post from JUNE!
BOINK! 🙂
ROTFLMAO @....... EB…… LOLOLOL
we all get a little lost in LF Land time to time. My reason is I’m reading 100 things and that makes my mind rearrange one million things…… WHEW! Brain gets tired from this healing!
Soimntthecrazee1!
Notcrazee;
Is that not the truth!!!
Had to give my buddy OXY with the Moxy shiat……
🙂
Well, EB, so what? she DID deserve a boink for that one, and I didn’t give it to her (One did give her a LITTLE boink!@.......) so BETTER LATE THAN NEVER!!!! ROTFLMAO
Well, got my hair cut, about 6 inches off the bottom, now I have BOUNCY HAIR! Feel absolutely light headed, even! New gal to cut my hair, my last good one retired, so got a recommendation from a gal with a great hair cut I met last weekend at the history lecture! The woman is a wizard with the scissors! But she has a sign up that says “I am a hair dresser not a magician!” LOL but I personally think she did magic!
You know I think a hair cut/style is one of the cheapest and easiest things we can do to lift our spirits! Doing things for ourselves is wonderful! I hadn’t actually had my hair cut since last January, so been in need of one a while! Got some tasty new goodies that are low calorie, low sodium! That taste good! Borrowed some low sodium cook books and just had a great day!!!!
Dig out of the snow, EB! It is 40 today!!!!!
Wowwowwow. Everyday I read here and everyday there is more and more that I read that just hits home! My spath def had the mom issues. She belittled him and yelled at him and nothing he evr did was good enough…I have actually heard her do it to him and his brothers..calling them fat or the haircut was not right..the one son makes 6 figures but she calls him unsuccessful..etc.it is not an excuse for what he did to me but I did always feel like she was a big part of what made him the way he is. I wanted to shelter him from that and make him know that I accepted him no matter what..I guess I was trying to make him understand that his mom was not normal to act that way and that I loved him unconditionally. I felt so bad for him and it made me the perfect target. Her sons are in 20’s and one of them in 30’s. Mine was the oldest. 2 of them are spaths. The other…I think is ok but that mother can make him cry like a small child if she starts in on him. I do not want to feel pity for my x spath after everything awful he has done to me but..I always felt bad about how his mother treated him. By no means does it justify what he did to me because he chose to treat me the way he did..but I would think it would be opposite..I would think that someone who was mistreated like that would be so happy and faithful to the person who finally truly loved and accepted him for who he was..but instead they turn into spaths. I am still learning so maybe this doesn’t make sense…..
Dear Broken pieces,
There is a big genetic component, and if you factor in the pith-poor environment that a P-parent gives the child, what chance to they have? Not much, but that does NOT excuse their behavior, though it may explain it. Doesn’t mean that they will change either. Or that they are capable of much change. They do have CHOICES of how to treat others, just like you did and do.
You cannot “save” someone else though, they have to decide for themselves how to act.
I think “Unconditional love” is a MYTH because it means that no matter how someone abuses you, that you will continue to love them without any kind of judgment of how they treat you. They can beat and rape you, starve you, and cut little pieces of your fingers off on a daily basis and you will love them unconditionally? Nah, I think not. That is called ABUSE and Stockholm syndrome, it is not normal.
We love our babies “unconditionally” when they are babies, it doesn’t matter if the child is born with 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 legs, we love them (or should) but when that child is an adult and tries to kill you, the “unconditional” nature of that love eventually goes out the window.
I have had people say to me (well-meaning people) that “he’s your son, you can’t give up on him.” Well, yes, he is my son, but I RECOGNIZE THAT HE IS NOT REDEEMABLE and that he is PROUD OF THE MURDER HE COMMITTED, and that he has NO REMORSE. Recognizing those things, I not only do not like him, I do not love him. I have emotionally divorced him, just as I emotionally divorced his father, and my egg and sperm donors, and the crazy neighbor across the road. I don’t hate these people but I recognize what they have done to me, and that they have no love for me, and my gushy feeling of “love” for them, my desire to be with them, is GONE if it was ever there.
The psychopath in the prison cell in Texas who tried to have me killed is not my “son”—my son was a cute little baby and he is not here any more. The MAN is a stranger and I have no love for him. I DO ACCEPT who and what he is, but I sure have no love for it. He has chosen to be the way he is. I choose to be the way I am.
Your light headedness showed today…mustov just come back from the salon when you posted! 🙂
A haircut is like paint on a wall….it changes so much of the feeling and comfort in the room.
I used to not get my haircut often, then my gf, who owns a salon started ‘duding’ me up regularly…no charge. Cut/color shit and shine……facail/pedi/mani…..the overhaul….
it really is a pick me up!!!!
I bet you look GORGEOUS with your new BOUNCY hair!!! LOVE IT!!!
Yea, this hairdresser is a HOOT TOO! I loved being there and she had “heard about me” from her friend (*hee hee) so I felt like I knew her and we bantered back and forth! It was a pick me up in many ways, not just making me BEAUTIFUL! ROTFLMAO
For 30 years I wore my hair short (easy to fix) get up, shower and go, and since it is very thick that worked, but had to get frequent cuts and so on, so after I retired I decided to let it grow so I could put it up in a bun, or tie it back in a pony tail—hey, it works for quick and easy! But hair is heavy (mine especially) so got it shortened where I can kind of still scrunch it back if I want to, or wear a head band or combs on the side and/or wear it loose. Gives me a variety of ways to wear hair and still feel okay and keep it easy and simple—not about to stand in front of a mirror for 2 hours every day drying and styling it—-got too many other things to do besides that! LOL
Well, it is past midnight and my carriage is turning back into a pumpkin—no that’s not my carriage, that’s my arse! So gotta put it to bed! G’nite!
Glad you’ve got manageable hair now Oxy. 🙂
We were talking about shame the other day and I was wondering if anyone has any tips on healing it, other than Bradshaw’s Healing the Shame That Binds You’? Got that book, and I like it. Probably should do all the exercises again.
I’ve found some websites and I like this:
“There is nothing shameful about shame. You have every right to yours. You earned it by surviving in the midst of shaming people. There is a great community of the shamed waiting to dare to trust others enough to be open and vulnerable.”
I have a great rape book I’m working through because I was emotionally, and in a way physically, raped (sex with an addict sometimes feels like rape) and it mentions ‘stuck points’ or things you cannot bear to think about, tell even your therapist (I haven’t) or contemplate without making yourself sick. I have stuck points, and they’re shame points of course, about what happened in the involvement with the man that brought me here.
I KNOW rationally that my whole life has been lived in shame because of the sexual abuse, and that the sex addict/narcissist/whatever the f he was got in because of that, but the shame is the hardest bit to let go of. If that went, I’d be home free. So much healing has happened and there is ALMOST forgiveness, as I believe he was shamed too. That’ll either make you a target for an abuser, or an abuser, when you grow up.
He said to me, grinning, “This is so easy.” Isn’t that horrible? I made it so easy for him because I was already believing what he thought about me. What happened during sex was utter and total dissociation and degradation for me, as I was back in my child memory.
I know it’s not my fault. Even posting this is helping to unburden me, which is good. I suppose that’ll happen more and more. And continuing therapy will help.