This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Kim,
Amen sister!! No relationship for me anytime soon!!!
They do that.. D&D. They devalue us then discard us. I am so glad to have LF Land to get validation and understanding for this abuse. I am so sorry that we have the need to have here, as long as we all pull together and complete the wheel with all of our differences there will be a healing place here at LF.
Hang in there woman!
Soimnotthecrazee1!!!!
Notcrazee, “My xspath is a filthy hoarding porno addicted pig. ”
Don’t hold back now! 😉
Yes, it seems we either internalise or externalise shame. I’m an internaliser; I make it mine.
Kim, the way you’re not heard will drive you mad. There’s a good website about voicelessness, which often starts in childhood with emotionally abusive/distant parents, with a nice piece on narcissists.
http://www.voicelessness.com/narcissism.html
Crying after sex, yes. I would cry all the way through. He loved it.
I seriously considered becoming a nun after all this. Not going to go that far now. No sex though. No thanks.
I just realised, I *assumed* so much because of the words, “I love you so very much.” I wanted to believe it so much that I totally discounted his actions. He never even thought we were in any kind of relationship, I see that now, but he let me assume that something was going on which wasn’t. He had excuses for everything he wasn’t doing. He didn’t even like me.
At last, after two years, I can say that without dying inside.
Thanks for the lnk Verity. Ironic isn’t it? They felt unseen and unheard in childhood, now everyone around them feels that way.
It is ironic. Tragic even. It seems that narcissistic parents will either cause you to become one yourself, like the men who brought us here, or to become vulnerable to one.
Dear Oxy,
I have thought a lot about what you said…
“I think “Unconditional love” is a MYTH because it means that no matter how someone abuses you, that you will continue to love them without any kind of judgment of how they treat you. They can beat and rape you, starve you, and cut little pieces of your fingers off on a daily basis and you will love them unconditionally? Nah, I think not. That is called ABUSE and Stockholm syndrome, it is not normal”
I suppose you are right…If he cut little pieces off of my fingers…I would not love him anymore. Also, I suppose that if my love for him was unconditional…I would still love him now. I don’t love him…I love the person I thought that he was…not who he really is…so you are right. Thanks for the different perspective on that. 🙂 I guess I just thought that I did love him unconditionally…because he always told me that was one of the good things about me…that I loved him unconditionally and always tried to see the good in him… But… I guess I really didn’t.
Kim and Verity,
Very good point, they do to others what was done to them and the slime continues. I’ve heard that pedophiles are people who were sexually abused as children.
So at what point does a person decide which roll to take?
Abuser or abused? I think the abuser is one who would not allow themselves to feel out of control, who doesn’t want to suffer and is determined not to feel their shame and grief.
broken and oxy,
It was so weird, but at the end of our relationshit, the spath was being a monster and then one day he gave me a really nasty look and said, “Love should be unconditional” Yeah, right, I was supposed to love him unconditionally no matter how nasty he was but he couldn’t love me at all, no matter how wonderful I treated him
My P-son wrote a letter to a minister friend complaining that his family were not “REAL Christians” because we did not give him UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Meaning, of course, that NO MATTER WHAT HE DID TO US, like try to kill us, we still had to give him UNCONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE, only he called it “unconditional love”—we were expected, he thought and wanted to believe that we had to “love” him (send him money and care for him, meet his needs, etc.) no matter what he did to us. WRONG!!!!! DING!!!! WRONG!!!!! DING-DING!!!!!
Jesus told his disciples that “by their fruits ye shall know them” by their ACTIONS you can tell if someone is evil or good…not by their words. The Pharisees who were a strict sect of the Jewish people would STRICTLY tithe (give 10%) of not only their sheep, wheat, wine, etc. as the Law of Moses commanded, but would give 10% of the tiny herbs they grew as well, to make sure they did 100% of the “Law”—yet, they would find “legal loopholes” to not care for their aging parents, or to take the homes of widows and orphans away from them. Their words were “holy” but their ACTIONS were greedy and hypocritical as they tried to make themselves appear very “godly” by doing every little thing the Law commanded but NOT doing the spirit of the Law to be generous and kind. These are the same men who were conspiring to hire LYING WITNESSES to find an excuse to crucify Christ. Yea, really “Holy” all right! NOT! Reminds me of Washington DC today! LOL
About the only HUMAN UNconditional love I can even imagine today is the love for a mother for her newborn, and even then I have seen mothers who were so disappointed in the sex of the newborn they didn’t love it, or that it had a defect of some kind.
The psychopaths and abusers tell us that WE OWE THEM UNconditional love, but that is a myth too.
Love is a VERB and it means that you TREAT others kindly. “Love your neighbor as yourself” means to treat your neighbor kindly as you would yourself. The problem is that we “love” the psychopaths and don’t “love ourselves” as much as we should. We allow them to repeatedly treat us unkindly. NC is “loving ourselves” and treating ourselves kindly by getting ourself away from these vermin.
Sky, “So at what point does a person decide which roll to take?
Abuser or abused? I think the abuser is one who would not allow themselves to feel out of control, who doesn’t want to suffer and is determined not to feel their shame and grief.”
Brilliant. Reckon you’re spot on there. I think from what I’ve read that the narcissist has set up a false self because he/she cannot take the grief and shame on. The false self (an idealised them) is to protect them from all the nasty feelings and they project the bad stuff outwards. “It’s not me, I’m fine. It’s you, you’re …” [insert the insult].
The one I knew was saying that his childhood was great, but I get the impression that his needs weren’t met and so he’s going to any length to meet them now without care or attention to anybody else. Well, he THINKS he’s being generous, kind, giving … but it’s nothing like that. He’s only preserving his false self image. Instead of getting real and honest and humble and saying, “God, what have I DONE?” so he can change, he keeps on projecting it outwards. “Look at me helping you, when I really shouldn’t have to.”
“Yeah, right, I was supposed to love him unconditionally no matter how nasty he was but he couldn’t love me at all, no matter how wonderful I treated him”
My experience exactly. I have discernment now. I had none, because I thought it was all I deserved, so I stayed far too long despite how he treated me. I know he didn’t care if I lived or died. He told me that he had HALF wished that a previous girlfriend *would* commit suicide when she threatened it and he had to go mend what he’d done. They are dangerous. My anger has gone now and I don’t have hate left in me. I understand if others hate for the rest of their lives and I wouldn’t blame them. They’ve been through FAR worse than me. At times I would have killed him if I’d been near him, the anger was so great (because of the memories of the child abuse being stirred so much and 40 years of grief surfacing). But it’s gone and I’m glad.
verity – ‘I think from what I’ve read that the narcissist has set up a false self because he/she cannot take the grief and shame on. The false self (an idealized them) is to protect them from all the nasty feelings and they project the bad stuff outwards. ‘
that is my n ex. who i knew was waaaaay weird, but until the spath, i didn’t realize my x was an n.
and sky – and then there is the other option – neither taking power or abdicating it, but working to have our own power.