This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
onestep,
“working to have our own power”, that one scares me, still trying to figure out how to do that.
sky – of course. it’s boundaries, self worth, esteem, humility, compassion, discernment, living our talents, speaking our minds, feeling safe and therefore able to call forward the skills we need in the moment.
it’s our life’s work. finding, developing and living in our power – my lama would say, ‘holding the level’.
xo one step
Dear Skylar,
Well…I guess spaths have a thing with thinking that people should love them “unconditionally” I guess it is because they know that someone would have to love them that way to stick around forever since the things they do to us are so horrible. It is almost like he trained me to forgive him no matter what, because he always went on about how big of a heart I have and that everyone deserves a second chance and that he knew I had it in my heart to forgive him blah blah blah… I guess that must be another part of their game. He could make me feel guilty for being mad at him after he just cheated on me or did whatever other nasty thing by making me feel like I was a bad person for not having it in my heart to forgive him..bc you know “everybody makes mistakes”. blah blah blah BLECH. When I talked to the girl he cheated on me with…she told me that he told her..that the reason that he always comes back to me is bc I have such a good heart. He had asked her if she loved him enough to do anything for him..and when her answer was “depends on what it is.” he got mad and told her that I never would have hesitated and just would have said yes. I am not so sure why he thought that because there are plenty of things that he could have asked me to do that I would have refused but I guess he didn’t think so because of my “unconditional love” that he always said I had for him. He sure never had “unconditional love” for me…If I said one little thing that he didn’t like…all H_ll would break loose and he would never let me forget it… He would pretend that he was forgiving me and “putting all the bad” behind..but that I had to do the same for him..A month maybe two would go by and then..all of a sudden…it would be brought up again by him for whatever reason and he would be just as angry as he was before. Yelling so loudly that spit was flying and I could barely understand him. I would cry and he would tell me how unbecoming it was and that I was a sissy and a crybaby. ugh. The only things he ever really got mad at me for were if I said something to someone in his family about our relationship (He has since managed to wreck the friendship that I had with his sister in law…I just never heard from her again after he spent an evening at their house on a night that I stayed in. who knows what lies he told her)… I guess that goes along with them not liking to be “exposed” for who they really are. It wasn’t always nice stuff that I said about him but it was true. I told him that if he didn’t want anybody to know about what he did than he should not have done it over and over again. Oh well. I was just sick of him trying to make it out to everybody that he was the good guy who always meets “whackjobs” so I figured they should know the truth. I guess in the end…they must not have believed me or they did and were just manipulated by him or they were just tired of the whole situation in general. oh well. pffffttt.
Dear Oxy,
I completely 100% understand why you feel the way you do after reading about how your P-son tried to use the unconditional love bit to make you think you were not a good person.
Their game and manipulations techniques are just so mind blowing to me.
I am still NC…I had a weak time…but I got through it thanks to all of you guys. 🙂 Thank you. And…on another thread..EB explained to me how to “vet” new people I meet before I give them too much info about myself, etc… So…I am learning so much about what happened and how to not let the same kind of thing happen again with someone one…it is a much needed lesson and I am grateful to have all of you here to talk with.
one_step, I don’t think my ‘friend’ was a true spath now, although he did all the 10 things on the list of signs in the blog entry here. It seems antisocials do it for fun, powertripping and hurting for pleasure, like your spath. I think he just didn’t give a toss. Couldn’t step out of his needs, as he called them, long enough to entertain anybody else’s. He said, when I told him his lies were found out, “I don’t care.” The women he makes sick are collateral damage, that’s all.
When I was suicidal, and therefore he had his freedom back at last, he wrote on his forum, “I’ve had a problem for some time, but it’s sorted out now.” If you didn’t see these people with your own eyes, you wouldn’t believe it. It’s a continuum, so for today I am tempted to call him a ‘cont’.
*edited* However. Just read the latest entry on psychopaths on ‘Sanctuary for the abused’ website and it fits him to a T. Who knows? Or cares? Not me any more.
Well done on NC brokenpieces!
“I was just sick of him trying to make it out to everybody that he was the good guy who always meets “whackjobs” so I figured they should know the truth.”
Ooooh yeah, they’re ALL the same.
Unconditional love. I don’t think it’s possible when our ego is damaged, i.e., we haven’t healed the damage done in childhood and we don’t love ourSELVES. A healed ego can love unconditionally but it’s not love as we are used to using the word. It’s more of an allowing of what a person is, because they know no better.
If you don’t have any needs or expectations of anybody, and you feel entirely whole alone, then you can watch what others are doing (our children, lovers, whoever) and decide whether that’s something you want to be a part of or not. That’s discernment. We don’t have to be near it, try to be in a relationship with it … anything. We can take the person to court, move house, whatever it takes to be free.
But we don’t have to get into victim (I’ve lived there all my life) and judge it. I am still judging the narcissist, because I want him to be different. I don’t know who for, because I don’t want him. Yes I do. I want him to be good for himself. For the world. To stop hurting others.
If he was shamed as a child, in whatever way, and this is his way of dealing with it, then I don’t want to shame him any more. Keeping on writing about him is doing that. I wish he wouldn’t stalk me, but I suppose that keeps him believing that I deserve his hatred, keeps it outside himself.
While we’re hurting and still healing our ego damage, we need to tell our story. We need to get a witness to recover. We couldn’t get one when we were little so we’ve carried it. The woman who runs the sex addicts site says don’t be afraid to tell your story: they weren’t worried about damaging your health when they knew they had stds and didn’t tell you, when they were betraying your trust. You have to feel aggrieved and get it out of you and put blame where it’s deserved. But I THINK (I’m never sure, but it’s my opinion right now) that once we’ve done that, we can heal enough to accept that that’s who they are and that it’s all okay. It’s all for a reason, even if you can’t see the reason. I know not everyone subscribes to ‘everything is absolutely perfect’ but in my spirituality I do. It’s not perfect on an INDIVIDUAL level, but it’s what’s happening, therefore how could it be other than perfect? Fighting what IS makes us sick. I am learning to identify less with what’s happened to ME, but see it as ‘what’s happened’ and remove myself from it. Then I can unconditionally love: when I am well enough to accept his way of being a person, but love myself enough to protect myself first. The love stops being personal love, for him, but becomes love (another word for acceptance) of what is — him included.
I’m sure lots of people will think it’s tosh, but it’s helping me. It’s not good that anything bad happens, but it’s harder to rail against other people’s behaviour/natural disasters/injustice than see it as inevitable with the circumstances/childhood conditioning going on at that time. If we CAN change something, or believe we can, fine. Give it a go. If we can’t, we can stop identifying with it. It’s taken me two years to get to this point and I had to identify strongly and blame and judge a lot first. I’m sure I’ll still do it, but the sting has gone. Getting closer to acceptance.
“I am learning to identify less with what’s happened to ME, but see it as ‘what’s happened’ and remove myself from it.”
Much wisdom in your post. Thank you.
Verity, loved your post, above. That is pretty much my understanding of all this, too.
I can still trip and fall, though. Still get back into my fix it change it role…and I can still be damn mad I can’t have my way…but I strive to accept what is and recognize it as God’s handywork.
Wasn’t it Eric Fromm who said that love is not a feeling, it’s a decision? If love is a decision, that implys choice. Choice implys condionality…ie, if I can choose to love, I can also choose to not love. There are conditions under which I choose to not love. And honestly, what we were doing with the Spaths who treated us miserably was not love…IMO, but something else. It feels huge, and powerful, and we lable it love.
Perhaps Jesus loved unconditionally, but I don’t believe humans are capable, although they may strive to, as Verity wrote about above. Anyway, just musing.
Aww Masada, bless your heart. Thank you too.
Thanks too Kim. I think the problem is the word ‘love’. If we see it as we always have, as in, “You do this for me and then I’ll do this for you,” or “I’ll love you if you are this way …” we’re certainly not going to be loving (liking?) everybody and neither should we because not everybody will treat us decently and we’ll contract to protect ourselves. That’s wisdom. Even with our kids if they’re spaths. In that way, love is a decision. We can withdraw our loving acts from that person… turn away if we need to. We don’t have to ‘love’ them as in choose to live with them or spend time with them. That’s to keep safe. That’s the only love I knew about. But we don’t have to replace loving acts with angry and judgemental acts (and I’m not including going to court or withdrawing or any act of self-protection). I’m really not proud of myself when I’ve sat and written horrible things about him, even if he ‘deserves’ them, and I’m not even sure he does. It’s not who I want to be. It’s my hurt talking. I can’t be the judge any more, although I probably will again when I slip.
I’m seeing the word love differently now. There are all sorts of ways to love maybe? This unconditional love is a different thing. He was here and we shared something and he’s a fellow human. He was included in my experience. YES! God’s handiwork. I can’t make him or the past different. He’s that way for a reason and he came to me because God/the Universe wanted it that way. He’s made me better. My therapist said on Monday, “You know he’s helped you?” and of course I waah-ed and blubbed and howled for 15 minutes. Yes, he did. I don’t *want* to feel good about him, because he had contempt for me and feeling good about someone who rejected me hurts badly if I’m also rejecting myself. But he helped me to heal.
Oh yes, I thought I loved him, but I was trauma bonded and I WANTED him and wanted him to love me. Conditional. That huge and powerful thing wasn’t real love for me either Kim. Now I love him. I think he’s an arse, but I love him, as in I allow him to be who he is … as long as he’s not near me because I don’t trust him or like what he does. He must’ve been doing the best he could, or he’d have done it differently. I’m seeing unconditional love for the first time, apart from with my daughter. You can’t love unconditionally if you want them to be ANYTHING. But if you see their humanity too (not easy when you wish they were different) and know that they’re just doing what they can, it seems possible. I don’t think we have to call it love. Unconditional or otherwise. It’s just acceptance. Allowing. Including. He’s included in the human race, no matter what he does. He has a past and genes and I guess pain too. I’m having a spiritual day today, haha. It might not last, but it’s so much easier than having the negative feelings. They’ve all gone.
I keep editing. It’s about levels of experience, I think. On the small, ego identity level, it hurt badly because it happened to Me. With healing you seem to move up the levels to a more ‘universal’ consciousness. It’s probably just the path I’ve taken in healing. There’s space around it. Just stop reading if you think I’m going into woo-woo land, hehe. But once you take ‘Me’ out, you’re left with ‘what happened’. The pain goes.
Thanks, Verity. I understand.
For example, the biggest heart-break of my life happened about 20 years ago. I raged, and cried and flailed and wept and hurt so bad for about two solid years. I hated what he had done and hated him a bit. I knew I’d never be the same, and thought I’d never forgive him…but after much time a little therapy and soul searching, one day i realized I had forgiven him.
I don’t think he was a spath, but i think he’s pretty Narcissistic, and I definately have my issues, too. I realized that he was hurting too, and that he tried to love me, and did the best he could. I took a look at myself and how I contributed to the problem, as well, and came to the understanding that we are all somewhat flawed.
I left him a long time ago, but we remain on good terms, because of the kids and grand-kids.
The more recent spath I write about here has been a bit of a conundrum, too, because I know he’s an addict, and even though he behaves very spathy, I wonder whether he really is one. Also, I have my own addictions, so don’t feel really quick to blame…but I know I’m not a spath.
Well, I found some answers to that a couple weeks ago. I read some research that suggests that some addicts are not primary sociopaths, but secondary…meaning that they were not sociopathic before the on-set of addiction. Some of course were, though.
This makes so much sense to me because i know that people who live by the 12 steps in AA do change….even if their behavior while actively addicted was reprehensible. AA is quick to admitt the alcoholics self-centeredness and ego, control issues and such, and is designed to cure it.
I have wondered and wondered about that, so now I have some answers.
I still struggle with forgiving that one, though, but I’m a bit closer.
“The more recent spath I write about here has been a bit of a conundrum, too, because I know he’s an addict, and even though he behaves very spathy, I wonder whether he really is one. Also, I have my own addictions, so don’t feel really quick to blame”but I know I’m not a spath.”
That’s my experience too, Kim.
“Well, I found some answers to that a couple weeks ago. I read some research that suggests that some addicts are not primary sociopaths, but secondary”meaning that they were not sociopathic before the on-set of addiction. Some of course were, though”.
Thank you so much for that. I’d not read it and it helps.
I just felt so much better when this unconditional love thing kicked in and I thought I’d talk about it and see if it worked for anyone else. Glad you got me. 🙂 We’re all on a big old journey here.
I’ve sat here for two days straight, between housework and meals, knitting hats and gloves for Christmas presents, for those who didn’t get them LAST year. I must get off the laptop! Thanks Kim and take care.