This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Hi One,
we can let the feelings wash over us together. This thing feels like a suffocating blanket. It’s like a really long and badly written computer program, that I have to decipher but first I have to learn the coding language. Labels help.
I know it is obvious to everyone here on LF that I intellectualize emotions. My intellect is all I trust, it doesn’t mislead me. My previous errors in judgement were due to my emotional reactions. I am using my intellect to feel with until I can trust the emotions. Check out this list from Thesociopathicstyle.com
This list is not exhaustive. A person possessing the traits listed below is a prime target for victimization by a person desiring a Sociopathic Styleâ„¢ relationship.
•A belief that if you love enough the person will change
•A belief that if you love enough the relationship will succeed
•Difficulty establishing and maintaining boundaries
•Not being able to say no
•Being easily influenced by others
•Wanting to be rescued from your life situation
•Wanting to rescue others from their distress
•Being over nurturing particularly when not asked
•Feelings of shame and self doubt
•Low self esteem
•A lack of memories about childhood or periods of adulthood
•Shyness
•Difficulty communicating
•A lack of self confidence
•Wanting to please
•A lack of motivation from within and being motivated by what others want
I have about 11 of these. THE LAST ONE IS WHAT IS PARALYZING ME. No one is demanding anything of me and no one is interested in things that help me. I’ve lost my desire to please my parents, my BF hardly asks me to do anything except cook for him. I sit and do nothing. I have no willpower of my own. For exercise, I have to play raquetball just so I can have the ball tell me what to do. I DRAG myself around. Car is a mess, house is a mess.
Dear Sky,
You are identifying things which are problems in your life. GOOD JOB.
Right now there may be so many of them (you identified 11 of them above) that you may feel over whelmed and unable to cope with them.
Take one thing–you say your car is a mess—clean it up. Clean it out. Get it washed. Get one small corner of your life “straightened up” then start on the next one.
My life was so out of control, it was total CHAOS and on top of everything else, I had to run for my life, take a Relative “back pack” and flee.
Now, one thing at a time I have been “cleaning the corners” of my life from small things to bigger things…from no boundaries and feeling I have to PLEASE EVERYONE to pleasing only myself. From not being able to say NO! to saying NO!!! and meaning it. To RESCUING MYSELF, but not others. To stopping smoking, to losing weight! ONE THING AT A TIME….not trying to do it all at once.
Sky, I have felt so overwhelmed I didn’t know which way to turn, which “alligator” to stomp, as I was trying to drain the swamp. So take the lilttlest alligator of them all (clean out your car) and just stomping down that ONE little “alligator” will help you in your quest to drain the swamp!!!! (((hugs))))
Oxy,
you are an inspiration.
I am trying to increase my exercise – I’ve gained 20 lbs in 1 year. Trying to cut out the cheeese, like Gem said, and only eat the holes. I’m so lucky in so many ways. God always takes care of me. So I’ve become lazy. I know He wants me to do better. I think this parental thing is a big problem.
I’ll clean the car tomorrow.
(((hugs)))
Dear Sky,
Thank you! Yea, God does take care of us, but I think He also expects us to do our own parts, and He will take care of the parts that we aren’t able to. I got my stationary bike back home (I had it loaned out to an elderly friend) it has a “chair seat” so it doesn’t hurt my back to ride it, so it is home and set up where I have to TRIP OVER it. I rode it tonight after a hard two days of manual labor (we went to help a friend butcher 2 big animals) so my exercise is increasing, but I will add the stationary peddling to what I already do, and it will be great for winter use when it is too cold or wet and cold to get outside as much.
Tomorrow I have to pack up our share of the meat and put it in the freezer. It is sitting in the refrigerator tonight in big plastic bags! I bought myself a nice vacuum sealer machine for my birthday so I’ll get to play with that as well tomorrow. It feels good to do things again that I have enjoyed doing (providing good organic food for our home) but for a while there, I didn’t really care what we ate or when, it just wasn’t high on my priority list when I had my emotional “tit in a wringer”–when you are in pain it is difficult to think about anything else. Like Jesus talked about each member of the body is part of the whole, and so if one part hurts, so do the rest of the parts.
So just start on fixing ONE tiny problem, then move on to the next one and before you know it, things will start to look much better in your life and your heart!
Accepting that our parents are not what we wish they were as parents or as people and accepting that we cannot change them any more than you could change the Psychopath—or even accepting that they are high in psychopathic or narcissistic traits and that they weren’t good parents, that they didn’t nurture us or teach us what we needed to know for life. But that is in the past, and we are adults now, and even if we don’t know what they should have taught us, it is up to us to teach ourselves now what we need to know to survive.
WE ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THAT. We ARE doing that! TOWANDA!!!!
Hi, Guys, Oxy, I too, have bouncy hair now!I signe d up for this company called “scoopons”, which gives you GREAT deals on everything from meals, to hairdos, to massages, to day cruises, etc. the idea is, if enough people sign up for each daily deal, you get it for ana mazing low price. Well, I scored a total hair package in a top , upscale city salon,normal price wass $159- I got it for $49~!!How good is that? First of all, they sit you down, you have a “consult with a gorgeous young stud as to how you like your hair cut, styled, etc. then freshly brewed coffee ina filter is brought to you on a tray, while you wait. Chandeliers, glossy mags, velvet cushions, you get the picture? then a chinese robe is lovingly wrapped around you and you are whisked off for a shampoo, condition and full head massage
{from anothe gorgeous young stud.]
Marvellous herbal oils are rubbed into your hair, then it is steamed with a hot towel.Then the whole thing rinsed off. next, stud no. 1 gave me an AMAZING haircut, I swear the best cut Id ever had.!I still hada few highlights from foils Id had done a while back, he said, not to worry, it will look amazing, light and shade, , you will look FANTASTIC , the grey wont show.And hewas right! I sailed out of there on a cloud, and it still looks fabulous.!!My husband LOVES IT!!
Today our adopted kids came fora pre Xmas lunch, and we had a SUPER day!they came at 12.30, and have just left,{5.45pm.
they loved all the food, we had such fun, Roya looked amazing in the Turquoise chiffon and silver sequin party dress, and blue crochet bolero cardi Id bought for her. Abbas loved the gym tops I got for him.David gota wonderful bound book on archaeloogy, and I was given a lovely book on famous writers.
Much hugging and kissing. What a day!!They found out last Monday that they have been granted that extra years stay in Australia, and then at the end of 2011, they can then apply for permanent residency.So, a red letter day!We are so very lucky to have brand new loving couple of kids.!On the 23rd, were of to New Zealand till 3rd January, so I will cunningly avoid the usual agony of waiting to see if my SIL will condescend to visit us with the Gkids.Last year he promised to come, but it didnt happen, so Im not even going to let him know were going to N. Zealand.if he DOES show up, too frigging bad!Im at last learning to back spath and with BOUNCY HAIR!!Love to all of you from your happy Mama gem!!XXX
WOW….Backspathing and Bouncy Hair! NOW THAT”S EMPOWERMENT GIRL!!!!!
I’m glad you had a good visit with Roya and Abbas, they sound like lovely people who offer you such love. Your very fortunate Mama G.
Enjoy your Bouncy hair….I need your hot guy #1 and 2….probalby 3, 4, 5 too! 🙂
Skylar,
Your posts about your parents are very familiar to me.
I think the realization ‘phase’ and the ‘disection’ phase are very difficult. It’s a coming of the reality.
Then you remember THESE ARE YOUR PARENTS! And it’s a whole different can of worms.
I have not dealt with the realization of my parents, to this point. I have filed it on the back burner.,
I know it’s not something I can avoid forever, but the past few years dealing with my marriage and all that’s gone on, i’m not ready for that boom.
It is what it is…..I have virtually NC with them.
I don’t trust them, and I don’t want to get caught up in the ‘familial’ automatic trust and play the game with them.
It is painful to realize these are our parents……I feel your pain.
One day, when I allow myself to heal this side of the wounds….I will be walking in your shoes in this battle ground.
For now….I want to reclaim my life, redirect myself into full happiness, raise my kids and figure ME out.
THEN….I will deal fully with ‘their’ part in ‘me’.
It’s not somehting I can totally avoid, it’s there, I process it slowely….but I don’t allow myself to get too thought provoking on the parental deal…….I just can’t relate to their denial, and all the harm they caused me and their only grandkids. As a parent, this is FOREIGN!
They are TOXIC!
As hard as this is for you….know you will come up for a breath at some point.
Skylar,
I can so relate to “doing nothing” when you are overwhelmed. Ox is right, one little thing at a time. I am the working on the baby steps of this myself. At least God still gives you the knowledge to know that the car is mess and to do something about it, instead of not knowing and not caring at all. When I get overwhelmed, I just sit back and take a deep breath and say.. “Take it easy on yourself”!!! Write out a list of things to accomplish and start with just one. It’s nice to see yourself mark through the list and see the accomplishments made.
Take it easy on yourself!
Soimnotthecrazee1!!
EB,
Are things quiet on the homefront tonight?
notcrze
”Ž”I think of life as a good book. The further you get into it, the more it begins to make sense.” -Harold Kushner
I bet most of us can relate to this huh?