This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
I know, BlueJay, you are so right.
But, I loved the person he pretended to be and it was so good for me too. And – now that he’s again “pretending” (for I know change is impossible) to be a child support paying father, I am all confused. Once upon a time, he showed me that I was worth love, affection, and companionship. And – grateful, I accepted his imperfections. Little did I know that behind the imperfections lie volumes of evil. Thanks for your encouraging words 🙂 It’s good to be here.
Steve, there is hope for those who wish to participate and are capable of change. At some point, the change psychopaths are capable of will no longer be taken seriously because history had proven that ALL positive change is self serving and short lived. This realization hurts the most and leaves one feeling helpless
BlueJay,
I think a lot of people are not capable of mature love – toward self, toward others, etc. Maturity as a whole – like wisdom – does not necessarily come with age. The Ps are not capable of any love. What we perceive and they portray as love is a charade, merely a game, on stage play in the theater of life. They value neither selves, nor others. Like children with no discipline, they cruise from one “play station” to the next. Now that I write this, I recall that I had one doll for over 6 years (from 2 to 8). She was my pal. She was sick with me, she was well with me. I was able to attach to her and to “take care of her”. My P never had that experience and I think it’s one to have as a developing human.
Dancing warrior,
The FIRST time my egg donor accused me of being after her money, then later “apologized” by saying “I didn’t mean it, I just SAID IT TO HURT YOU.” WOW! THAT hurt 100 X more than her saying I was out to get her money (untrue) the fact that she WOULD TRY TO HURT ME (sometimes even psychopaths and Ns tell the truth too!) HURT TO THE CORE, hurt so much worse than what she had done.
I still don’t have a “diagnosis” for her, except that I do know that she is closely MASKED, and careful about who she shows the real RANCOR IN HER SOUL TO, in fact, I think the person she keeps her secrets from the most is HERSELF.
I won’t say I have NEVER done anything to hurt someone deliberately (I wish I could say that) but I have never done it to anyone I even CLAIMED to love. Never deliberately tried to harm someone I loved. How could anyone do such a thing? What kind of motive would one have to accuse someone you truly loved of trying to harm you when you knew it wasn’t true?
It isn’t that I have never actually hurt someone I loved, it is that I never deliberately TRIED to hurt them, WANTED to hurt them. Set out to hurt them.
I can see how someone can be somewhat obnoxiously “narcissistic” and not be EVIL, as I think there are different “grades” of Narcissistic just like there are grades of “fat” or “short” or “tall” or “skinny.”
My opinion for what it is worth is that many people label people who are really over-the-top psychopaths as “narcissistic” when in fact it is just because the N fraction STICKS OUT SO OBVIOUSLY. There are other Ps of my acquaintence who are JUST AS MUCH Ns but they are a bit more “socially adjusted” and don’t let their narcissism stick out so much. In other words, they don’t appear so “uppity” as they say in my community, or “stuck up.” They have a FAKE humility.
Other people I know who are I think pretty good folks actually, but they are a bit “stuck on themselves” about what they are capable of, but they aren’t malicious, just a pain in the butt. If that makes any sense.
I think a “lower level” N who is NOT malicious just a bit “conceited” can be TAUGHT to be more thoughtful of other’s feelings. To agree to disagree, or to give in and work with someone else’s ideas and needs.
BUT that said, I don’t think that people who LIE, CHEAT, use VIOLENCE (emotional or physical) etc. qualify as LOW level anythings, so I don’t think we need to beat ourselves up about “should I have worked with him more?”
As for your guy Skylar (BTW, good to see you still around) you just have to make that decision for yourself about whether or not he is KIND, CARING, HONEST AND GOOD to you. If he falls down in any of those criteria, I’d say ditch him.
GettingIt,
During our separation, I learned from a few of his family members “secrets” that they had on him (eg. he co-signed his first wife’s signature to an auto loan, enabling him to purchase a truck for himself). When I married my h-spath, I hadn’t heard anything negative about him (from any of his family members, although some of them had the goods on him already). For many years, I thought he was fine, normal, didn’t notice anything too alarming. After he became fully self-employed, hell eventually broke loose, the mask came off, and I was in for a ride. The things that I experienced were already in him (eg. pathological lying, financially irresponsible, etc.) – he was concealing this side of himself from me, but when I started experiencing one thing after the next, trying to understand what was going on, I came to realize that I had a sociopath in my life. It has helped me to know what I am dealing with. I am miffed with his family for not warning me about him. One family member told me that she thought he’d change. They’re talking about him now, putting their stories together (I suppose), while my kids and I are living out the nightmare. Anyways, you could not prevent your ex from acting out the way he’s wired, so don’t beat yourself up over how it all played out. If a spath were married to a Mother Teresa type person (a saint), he would have treated her the same way, being abusive toward her.
OxDrover,
I need to get off to bed. I saw that you had posted. Yes, like you, I have hurt loved ones in the past, but I haven’t tried to hurt any of them deliberately – it’s just a byproduct of whatever was said or done. It’s always good to read your posts. Take care and have a good night’s sleep (when you settle down for the night).
Psyche & GettingIt,
My ex did the same thing to me… somehow he tricked me to think that he treated me badly – degraded me, ignored me, subdued me, neglected me, abandoned me, hurt me, threatened me, cheated on me, lied to me, because it was MY FAULT FOR NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH…
And, that if I left him, he would just find someone who WAS good enough.
And, damn it, that was a freaking evil thing to do.
This mentality had me over-compensating and nurturing and giving and gushing emotions all over the place – in order to try to be “good enough” – all the while my life was sucked dry, my family and relationships suffered, he sat back, reclined, and lived the good life.
Will never forget the night he “tried” to get me to open up to him and tell him my feelings (a moment after he implied he wanted to “put me in a box” aka grave), and I was overcome with anxiety, because I feared him, his responses; did NOT want to give him ammo to use against me; and as he noticed my body language, grew impatient, angry, and said, ” Is this all you want, just want to be abused???”
(Not only did he have the benefit of his prey being wrapped up in this paralyzed “victim” role, but he arrogantly externalized everything so much, that he believed I WANTED IT! sick, sick, sick)
The hardest thing was getting over that belief and the want to be “good enough” for this a**hole… getting over the anger of being stripped down to my core, almost losing it all, like some sick gambler in a dirty casino…
Gosh, if only I knew then what I know now!
hi oxy,
thanks for the tidbit.
my ex-P is the best con man ever.
no one would suspect him unless they had read all the books AND been the victim of his evil mechanisms.
Here is why: He is addicted to evil.
Most P’s want money or power or status. My exP only wants to perpetrate evil and to incite as many others to do the same. He is willing to assume a low posture, pay money and look pathetic if it will allow him to sow a seed of evil.
He has used those words: “I will sow a seed”, when he was talking about a con. (my new bf told me this)
That’s why I could never win. I could never understand someone who would cut off his nose to spite his face. But that’s because I didnt understand his agenda. It was never about money or winning. He didn’t want my or anyone else’s money, he just didn’t want us to have it. He wanted suffering. He wanted to commit murder by suicide.
Now that I understand this, I have a terrible fear of ending up with the same thing again. I got the “cream of the crap” once, what if I got it again? The N is everywhere, but the P is less common. or is it? He made me think he loved me for 25 years. They are soooooooo convincing. so conniving. After him, all the N’s seem evil, even if they are just selfish. I wish I had someone to talk to about the details, but I’m scared to post them online. Maybe it’s my own narcissism that makes me think my situation is so much worse than others, maybe not. It’s hard for me to tell. I can only see things from my experience.
BTW congrats on your win with your son. Not that I would let my guard down with them, but at least you have some resolution..
This article has had me thinking a lot (ouch!) about wether someone CAN be a Narcissist and salvaegable… it is also very timely because of dramas playing out in the periphery (wow, yes the periphery..progress!) of my life with my NPD eggdoner.
“Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience!”
My older sister, I have in the last year since I learned the word, considered Narcissistic too, she has always been ‘the bully’ (like a bulldozer!) within the un-holy triad of sister – Narc Mum- sister. (I should also add that I am examining MY OWN Narc tendencies very closely as well, we dont grow up with these monsters and come out unscathed emotionally)
Within the Narc’s ‘playground’ we have our ROLES.
What I now realise is that she is extremely insecure, yes, and has always had difficulty in thinking laterally or “putting herself in someone elses shoes”( I feel I developed the opposite extreme – just as damaging: But these are our assigned roles to keep the NARC BS machine rolling!), yes. She has driven me nuts talking only of herself with ‘an how are you’ as a cliff note (quickly followed with fingers in ears…why? for fear of hearing something that invalidates her construct of how everything IS?) Just like above – it’s that defensive posture… but she is definitely ‘salvagable because she is SHOWING it (not saying it or promising it – doing it).
“Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.”
I ponder that a couple of factors may have assisted in defensiveness being removed for sister and I:
1.) she has had to good fortune to find a loving calm and supportive partner with a loving calm supportive family ( a window into the example of ‘normal’!)
2.) I have removed myself from the ‘playground’ by going NC with Narc ED.
I notice that her interactions are more thoughtful, in conversations she is more able to take things on board or disagree without aggression…to consider another point of view without feeling attacked. And I notice I respond with a more relaxed and accepting less defensive attitude towards her. We are neither of us ‘losing’ anything in doing this. there is also no need to be the ‘winner’ (the right daughter/ sister or the ‘wrong’ daughter/ sister.)
Above all I notice that her ‘narcisistic behaviour’ is not MALICIOUS…it has been ‘reactionary’… ‘defensive’. sure.
So when the ‘playground’ changes sister (and I) CAN respond positively and NOT rail against the changes.
I CANNOT say this for NPD ED! She RAGES against the loss of control…she rages against any change to the evil dynamic that SERVES her. Changes spur her into slander and discredit overdrive! Even if her life was ‘perfect’ and every body professed their undying love for her and she won the lottery! Still be ‘the victim’ and still require complete recognition of her primacy. Talking about how someone else feels? (and I quote) “hippy dippy shit” to be rejected outright! Hystrionic, will always find someone to point the finger at for ‘attacking’ her to feel the pleasure of everyone running to her assistance…even if its the milkman! She cannot FEEL self worth without destroying another’s. Her actions are Malicious, calculated. UNSALVAGABLE!
Anyway, in the end it is still up to us to make the call on wether we want to be involved in a freindship or relationship and to what extent with anybody.
This is just my current *thinks* any comments are always appreciated!:)x
Oxy said
“BUT that said, I don’t think that people who LIE, CHEAT, use VIOLENCE (emotional or physical) etc. qualify as LOW level anythings, so I don’t think we need to beat ourselves up about “should I have worked with him more?”
Abso-flippin-lootly!x Rule of thumb!
As ‘Super Nanny’ would say – “that’s just UNASSEPTABLE!”
This article and thread is just great – I have been reading and reading examining myself my behaviour and my sitch and it’s making my poor litttle brain hurt. I think this is a GOOD sign!
Dear Oxdrover, I noticed your post above and also wanted to add a TOWANDA!!! Congratulations!:)xx I wish you many more Acorns!x