This is a big topic, and I fully intend to flesh it out in future posts. But allow me, here, to consider this question from the perspective of the work I do with couples. It is often surprisingly easy, from a couples therapy perspective, to weed out the narcissists from the non-narcissists; and more importantly, the salvageable from the unsalvageable narcissists.
Narcissists, as we know, will struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective. But let’s be clear: it is the reasons they struggle with this, not that they struggle with it, that signals their narcissism.
At the risk of oversimplifying, narcissists struggle to appreciate their partners’ perspective fundamentally because they are deeply self-centered; and their self-centeredness does not arise from a neuro-developmental disorder.
But why do narcissists struggle to see things from their partners’ perspective? Mainly, because to do so, in their experience, would concede the primacy—the overwhelming significance and importance—of their wants and needs.
For narcissistic personalities, the mere notion of others questioning the primacy of their experience is felt variously as insulting, outrageous, unacceptable, threatening and punishable.
In contrast, less narcissistic personalities are less threatened to consider their partners’ perspective, because they have a more equitable view of whose perspective matters. To be clear, for less narcissistic individuals, their perspective matters a lot, but their partners’ perspective also matters a lot.
But I want to be very clear: it’s not that less narcissistic personalities don’t take their own perspectives seriously, maybe even more seriously than their partners’; it’s just that they’re not inflexibly wedded to the idea that their experience—how they feel, how they think, what they want, what they need—is always, by definition, more important and valid than their partners’!
Believe it or not, this is a virtual litmus test for problem levels of narcissism. When I work with couples, I am interested to encourage, and then see, something very important. I’m interested to encourage, first of all, the idea that “validating” your partner’s experience is not the same as endorsing it, agreeing with it, or even, necessarily, fully understanding it.
And “validating” your partner’s experience certainly doesn’t obligate you to abandon your own, possibly very different perception of the situation.
And so I often discuss this model of validation with couples in some depth—especially, the idea that you can recognize your partner’s experience; be willing, interested and curious to appreciate, and better understand, your partner’s experience, from her perspective; and recognize the sanity and sense of your partner’s experience, again from her perspective, without any of this effort and interest requiring you to concede your own, and perhaps very different, experience of the situation.
As you can see, validating, in this model, is the process of recognizing your partner’s experience from her perspective. It is not a process, as noted, of necessarily agreeing with, or even fully understanding your partner; and most certainly—and I can’t stress this enough— it is not a contest of whose perceptions of any given situation are more accurate and right, versus less accurate and more wrong.
Many find this a liberating concept, as it can allow for a relaxation of a common and unhelpful defense: I can’t validate what you’re saying or feeling, because to do so would effectively invalidate my experience.
In other words, from the perspective I’m describing, it’s possible—indeed, with motivation and practice, surpisingly easy—to validate another’s experience without in the least invalidating your own. In fact, this is a model of validation that’s relatively easy to practice because it respects the integrity of one’s own perceptions and experiences.
Once the need for the above defense is removed—and I work hard with couples to remove it—the couple’s capacity to appreciate each others’ experiences of each other often improves significantly.
Partners discover that, because the integrity of their personal experience is preservable, they can actually listen to each others’ experiences with more interest, curiosity and less defensiveness.
In marriages in which some goodwill remains, partners who buy into the model of validation I’m describing often find themselves striving for even more—that is, more than merely endeavoring to listen to each other more effectively, they often find themselves striving to make their partner’s experiences less frustrating and more satisfying.
Conversely, where no goodwill remains in the relationship, everything I’m discussing becomes pretty much moot. Narcissist or not, the marriage, with no goodwill left, is almost certainly dead. It’s just awfully difficult to recover goodwill in a relationship when the “goodwill tank” begins in the therapist’s office with the arrow on empty.
In any case, what happens in my office is often very interesting. The highly narcissistic and, in extreme cases, sociopathic client, cannot do what I’m discussing. Specifically, he is unable, with sincerity and effectiveness, to apply the model of validation I’ve described.
I suggested above the reason for this: he is simply too deeply, inflexibly invested in the significance, if not superiority, of his experience to make enough room for genuine interest in his partners’ experience, even after he’s been introduced to, and given ample time to digest, the proposed model of validation.
That is, this model of validation still falls well short of his demands. Sure, it’s nice that his partner is making efforts to recognize and appreciate his experience from his perspective. He’ll certainly take that, but he wants more than that.
Not surprisingly, what’s necessary—that is, what he still insists on and continues to demand—is his partner’s total capitulation to his way of seeing things.
This is the essence of his narcissism or, if you prefer, his deep, immutable self-centeredness.
Will these individuals show their cards immediately? More often than not, yes. More often than not, whether in my office or outside it (between therapy sessions), they’ll demonstrate, sooner than later, their inability to apply the kind of mutual validation under discussion.
But what about the smooth manipulator? It’s true that a smooth operator, a sociopath, for instance, can fake this process for some time, if he perceives it’s in his selfish interest to do so. (By “fake it,” I mean that he may seem to grasp it, apply it, and be invested in it.)
Yet, in my experience, even the manipulative individual masquerading as sensivitely invested in this form of validating communication, will almost always, sooner than later, reveal chinks in his mask; almost always, sooner than later, he’ll lapse into the highly self-centered attitudes and behaviors of the classic narcissist—attitudes and behaviors characterized by high, rationalized levels of under-accountability and non-transparency.
And so, while the slick manipulator may “get over” for a while, it’s usually not for long. That is, while he may present, initially, as reasonable, flexible and motivated, sooner than later his disguise will fray, revealing his true agenda in the forms of his usual presumptions and entitlement to ongoing gratification.
And so who is the salvageable partner? Narcissist or not, I’d venture to suggest he’s the partner capable of understanding, and appreciating, the concept of validation I propose.
He will be highly motivated to apply it, which is to say, willing to work hard, consistently and sustainedly at applying it; and, of course, he must be capable of applying it.
But the nice thing is, if he’s willing to work hard at it, he’ll definitely succeed.
In which case he won’t be a narcissist or, at the very least, his narcissism will prove to have been less extreme, and less emotionally crippling, than we might have feared.
(This article, the first of several impending articles on this subject, is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns in this article was purely for convenience’s sake. Females are also capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
Steve, I re-read your article and the one thing that is constant is whether or not the more narcissistic partner has the ability/willingness to do the work. My personal feeling about narcissism is that it can be tempered with appreciation for the feelings of others and, in some cases, not malignant. In other words, I do not believe that all narcissists are sociopathic.
On the other hand, if a person is only going through the proverbial motions as a means to an end, then it’s an exercise in futility from the starting gate. Most couples don’t find themselves in the office of a counselor/therapist as a simple maintenance issue, though I think that it might not be a bad idea to consider! By the time a couple has made the appointment with you, one (or, both) of them has become desperate to either salvage the partnership, or experience some sort of validation that they’re NOT crazy and that the union should be severed.
I agree that a spath is incapable of validating anyone else’s perspective, under any circumstances. In the world of spathy, the spath is the Emperor of their realm, as well as the only citizen. All others are either minions (useful as long as they remain relagated to their “slavery” status) to do their bidding, or simple prey to be feasted upon. They present a distinct lack of interest in validation, and to the astute eye, are pretty apparent at the outset.
When I would attempt to discuss my feelings or the downward spiral of our marriage to the ex spath, my efforts (without fail) were met with a cold, impassive demeanor and an utter dismissal of my feelings. There wasn’t even an acknowledgment that I HAD any feelings. There came a point when anything that I said was interrupted, dismissed, and discarded as so much offal – at this point, I began to write letters to present my feelings without being interrupted and dismissed. The letters were promptly crumpled in my face with the predictable, “I will not read this, so don’t waste your time.”
Even when the ex spath agreed to meeting with a marriage counselor, the relationship had long been over and he only attended 3 sessions before deciding that the counselor had it in for him, personally.
My feeling is that a partnership is worth saving when there is a mutual agreement to do the hard work, individually first, and collectively, second. If it comes to a point where my feelings are dismissed and that I should just run along and take care of the house and the children, any further effort to salvage the relationship is a waste of time and energy.
Blueskies, you’ve done some amazing work on your Self. To come to a point where you can see the picture with a more objective eye is wonderful!
The egg donor rages because she’s also fearful – afraid of that loss of control, on any level. If she’s willing to take responsibility for her actions, there may be hope for a salvage. If not, then NC is perfectly acceptable and appropriate, in my opinion.
Again, you’ve done some really hard work, and your insights are very, very valuable! Brightest blessings!!!
Steve
I accept your apology! on the scale of offensive…eh a 1 …but I just want to express myself, appreciate your response after all you are posting information and the whole idea is to respond I would have thought, especially if there is a different slant available to add to the pot…then the Author needs to BE accountable and transparent, no?
I will pop back in, as we all do on lovefraud some dont (they may go off in silence feeling sent away, and I can understand it). All different, all valid, all healing and not perfect… we can relate and engage with each other on such an important topic. When we put ourselves ‘out here’ there is as much risk as anywhere else..so I am open and tolerant of most viewpoints but when it comes to the feeling of a certain view dominating over others it feels a bit yeack!
I always get the feeling there are silent people who have much to say but are afraid of being steamrolled by the big rollers, the established group (fantastic and all as they are!) I invite the one who wont or cant to come forward and speak because it’s when you find a voice, there is the healing
Last time to clarify my thinking (to Steve)
I think your insight IS brilliant, and great insight IS exhausting at times
I am also so WARY of forgetting what it is to be human when I read your posts. They are highly scientific or something, and I would love to hear a bit of the human being that is Steve !!! (I think I did, cool, thanks for the glimpse…)
I’m experimenting with self expression as it is so liberating for me when I do…it’s so underrated..finding a voice with which to speak and join in and belong to a cyber group is tremendous but I’m not going to be all goodie two shoes about it, I hurt, I get pissed off, I need to speak my mind, be direct…probably very unpopular, but hey! I get to learn and grow and stretch and feel my energy move up a notch.
So heres to Steve Becker LCSWXYZQ…. Article writer of scientific precision…AND human being !
And heres to the group on LF EVERY LAST SINGLE ONE OF EM especially the silent ones who have been hurt, afraid, too angry to come back….
the loudest voice is NOT the whole story, that’s for sure.
jesus where does it come from…the ranting and the raving…
Style 1
I totally hear what you are saying, don’t you dare go off and sulk…..
Bulletproof,
I agree, I want to hear from those we hardly ever hear from anymore, the silent ones, the quiet ones, the ones who think about going away.
Purewaters,
I have to say, you really surprised me when you mentioned that your ex implied wanting to put you into a box (coffin). Wow. I thought mine was the only one who said crap like that. One day mine said to me ‘you have to die,’ and then he laughed. And I laughed, thinking I was going to hear some kind of joke. So I asked him why I had to die, and he said, ‘because I love you.’ How F’d up is that?
And yes, I know what you’re saying, getting stripped down to the core, almost losing it all like some sick gambler in a casino. THAT IS EXACTLY how I felt. So addicted, so blind to the dynamic that was staring me right in the face! And yes, the freaky mind tricks where they get you to believe that you are the problem, so that they don’t have to be.
I want to be normal again, and I get it when Style says she wants to be a narcissist. I mean, what a relief it would be to think of myself as perfect, and have the luxury of getting others to carry all of my psychological feces for me. Mostly I feel like I lost my ability to feel like I belong anywhere, ever again. People hate me for reasons that have to do only with the gossip and smear campaigns that all of this has generated. I feel hated, and I hate it. Meanwhile, my abusers look like the victims in everyone else’s eyes. It’s hard to take the fallout, and wait for it to play itself out. I mean, I’ve stopped contributing to the problem, but the problem has a life of its own now.
Ugh.
Psyche
Dancing Warrior –
“My H said that during one of our “fights of the century” when we went on a driving trip, if he had shown understanding for why I was upset at the time, it would have meant DEATH to him. DEATH>”
I wonder what it is with these guys. I mean, it’s like we have to die so that they can live, in their twisted little world. And our needs being met somehow meant death to them. I saw that same dynamic in mine too, and it’s all kinds of freaky.
And what’s more freaky, is those moments when you know that they were FULLY AWARE of what they are. The last thing I ever said to mine was ‘you’re a bad person.’ And he said ‘I know.’ He said it like a little boy, who deserved a minor scolding, and then laughed a little to try to get over the awkward moment, and play cute. What a freaking sicko.
Then I wonder what I used to be, that allowed me to walk into that world and stay for as long as I did. I’m glad I know better now, and have some skills needed to identify these types, and block them pretty effectively, but it still disturbs me to the core when I really think about what the Spath/N world is made of. It’s been three years since I ‘escaped’ from immediate danger, but every day still comes with a new blow to anything that was ever connected to that part of my life.
Psyche
Hi Buttons ;
“If she’s willing to take responsibility for her actions, there may be hope for a salvage.” That’s the point I think…. ED cannot take responsibility small or large because she simply doesnt have that ‘part.’
(also she “never-did-anything- to- anyone- ever- except-be-kind- and-loving-so-there-are-no-actions-to-be-responsible-for! and-anyway-your-being-mean-to-me-Help!! I’m being ATTACKED! by a vicious paranoid schizophrenic who’s reson detre is to spread the LIE that I am not perfect!!!!” Waaaaaaaah!)
You cant fix something that isnt there.:(
Psyche, {{{hugs}}} Feeling hated and hating that feeling is just a part of the process of getting the heck OUT. I was hated by my own parents when I finally got out. How could I do such a thing?
When the general population is oblivious to what sociopathy even is or that it exists, attempting to force them to “get it” made me look like I was a lunatic. It was a constant feeling that I had to defend my decisions and explain what happened beyond the facade that people saw. How does one discuss spousal rape with people who buy into the stigma that “certain women” are abused and “did something to deserve it?” And, if we even mention sociopathy, the actual definition is so overwhelming that they cannot grasp the concept. No conscience? Surely, there’s SOMEthing good about this person, isn’t there? NO, there isn’t!
Psyche, there are only 2 things that we “have” to do in this lifetime: pay taxes, and die. We have no choice in either of these matters. What we DON’T “have” to do is to explain ourselves or attempt to get others to “understand” or “believe” what we’ve experienced. If they weren’t there, they can’t have any idea of what we’ve Survived. For me, trying to detail my experiences to someone other than an objective, paid counselor was like trying to teach my cats to play poker. They just couldn’t fathom that a married man could “rape” his wife in the legal sense of the term. I tried to describe this to a friend, once, and she actually responded, “How can a husband rape his wife?” I tried to explain that the act, itself, was not sexual but as a matter of control, and she just looked at me as if I’d sprouted a zucchini from my forehead. It just did not sink in. Even some trained psychologists “don’t get it.” Psychiatrists know about sociopathy, but they choose to “define” it in such a manner that nobody outside of their profession can understand the terminology – thus, making the reference impossible to grasp.
Blueskies……yah. If it ain’t there, all the tools in the bag can’t fix it. Even if we had the proper tools, we’re only responsible for fixing ourselves. UGH is right! 😉
Steve – My Dad is a narcissist. I’ve just come to realize this – as the devalue and discard arc was a long one with me, and he has gotten much worse, and/ or his narcissism shows more in his words and actions as almost all other behavior has fallen away in his 70’s.
My question is around influence of people around them. My Mom had a very strong personality, explosive and controlling (much due to unmanaged physical and emotional damage, constant pain and overwork/ stress over many decades). They seemed a match for one another in their bullishness. Even though she was also supply to him. most definitely. She now has Alzheimer’s and has had many TIAs.
It seems that SHE was both supply and conscience to him. As the years pass with her illness advancing and her old personality and ways of being in the world his behavior becomes more and more narcisistic. I lived with her for 3 years, caring for her. I know the day to day of the situation. I understand caretaker burn out and have sought support for myself (they won’t accept support for ‘outsiders’ sigh.), but this situation does not explain his behavior, it is only the setting for it.
He has done some horrendous things in the last few years – to me and others. She is no longer stroking him/ acting as his conscience and he is lost in terms of human interaction – like he has no boundaries now, and no external controls. Almost like he is a 3 yr old; selfish, self center, prone to tantrums and grudges, and lacking a desire/ connection or language for honest open relationship.
So, this is my question – and probably more background info than you actually need – depending on the depth of their narcissism, do the external controls deeply affect their behavior?
Buttons — exactly.. That’s it, i mean, the average person cannot fathom that some people are not salvageable. For the longest time, I was the average person who could not fathom that. And if, once we know the ugly truth, we treat an S, P , N as if they are not salvageable, people automatically think we’re the bad guys. And from their perspective, the sociopaths are the poor victims!
I also looked like a lunatic to people who didn’t get it. Since then, I have forced myself to keep my mouth shut about what I see, knowing it will only get people to think I’m the bad guy if I say something. And THIS adds to feelings of frustration and abuse. Having to keep quiet for the sake of appearances has not sat well with me.
The only thing that’s helped is accepting that the world is full of people who cannot get it, and that yea, I was duped and abused, discarded and smeared. All my investments are flushing down the toilet as we speak. But now I know better. Yay. o_0
oh and i have friends who are trained psychologists who do not get it at all. they may have definitions for it, but there’s no insight. i believe almost no one can really get it until they’ve been ruined by one of the S or Ns.
thanks for the hugs and the chat, buttons. i’m having one of those days when i feel like I really will lose everything to this (except myself). Until now, i had had some glimmers of hope that i could salvage enough to make me feel okay about it all. it’s not really looking like that today.
yes, i know, reclaiming ourselves is supposed to be the prize, but i’ll be honest with you, today i’m not feeling like a prize. right now I see the costs for reclaiming myself, and none of the benefits.
xo, Psyche