It can be pretty tricky navigating the continuum of narcissistically disturbed individuals, attempting to separate the salvageables from the unsalvageables. Yet, there are two awfully basic, interrelated questions that can help you cut to the chase, and guide your decision to keep going, or cut bait.
Here they are:
1) Is your partner someone who genuinely recognizes he has a problem respecting you?
2) If he genuinely recognizes this, then does he have the genuine motivation to confront his disrespectful behaviors and attitudes (be they chronic or episodic; devastating in their impact or more quietly, gradually corrosive of your goodwill)?
Ultimately, it comes down to these separate, yet related, questions.
If the answer to either of them proves no, or probably not, then it’s boogie on out of the relationship time. If the answer to both questions proves yes, or probably yes (and it must be “yes!” to both questions!), then you have a basis to hope for improvement in the quality of the relationship.
But wait a second! I hear the shrieks! “How do you evaluate how genuine someone is, especially a manipulative personality?”
Well, the truth is, it’s difficult to assess how “genuine” someone is, on any level, no less a really good manipulator. But you must still make this assessment in an ongoing fashion, and you must make it without certainty of its accuracy.
Now, we always need to be clear about this: Sometimes, when you are dealing with a sociopath tremendously skilled at dissimulation (as a great many sociopaths are), it may be impossible to bust him before he’s had the chance to wreak terrible, longstanding and long-lasting levels of destruction. God knows this is too often the case. Of course, Donna Anderson in her upcoming book will arm her readers with incredible tools to do precisely this—bust these harder-to-bust sociopathic types.
But in many cases, more than one thinks, partners can be flushed-out for lacking true recognition of their disrespectful behaviors and the true motivation to modify them.
Of course I can’t stress sufficiently that it’s not enough to flush these individuals out: once flushed out, you need to be willing to overcome defenses like denial and pathological hope to heed the red flags you’ve identified. (I’m going to write about what I call pathological hope in my next article. I see it as a defense mechanism that can be almost as self-destructive as the sociopath can be destructive.)
So what are we really looking for here? What do we really need to see? Yes, we are looking for recognition, but most of all we are looking for change. Recognition without change is ultimately useless, a big tease.
And we are looking not for signs of small, itty bitty changes, but real, durable, meaningful, yes big changes. If the changes are too subtle, too slow in coming, too contingent on things like his “moods,” or the alignment of the stars, or if they’re subject to “relapses” of any sort (and especially rationalized relapses), then”¦bzzzzzz”¦.it’s time to send him back to the dugout, permanently, to sit his a** on the bench with his fellow underperformers.
Why do I emphasize big changes and downplay small, subtle changes?
Because we are talking about a big problem, and big problems, on which the quality, integrity and perhaps even safety of your life literally depend, demand big changes. The evidence of the commitment to these changes needs to be absolutely unmistakable; but again I repeat: the key thing is less the evidence of such recognition than the evidence of the changes!
Let me give a small, somewhat tangential but, at least, one specific example of what I’m saying. Let’s say you’ve been feeling disrespected by your partner and for you this is a very serious problem. You’ve been feeling variously misunderstood, blown off, violated, neglected, abused, mistrustful; feeling, let’s say, relegated to a hurtfully low priority in your partner’s world.
In a word, you aren’t feeling respected, and this has become, for you, a serious problem that you share with him. You request that he join you for couples counseling to address your, and perhaps his, concerns?
His answer is “no.”
Well, the answer, “No,” to your request for his participation in couples therapy, is a “You just struck out, pal” answer. That’s a damning, indictable answer. “No” is a virtual affirmation of what you’ve shared with him you’ve been experiencing—his disregard of you and the relationship.
“No” is an utterly lame answer, especially if you’ve requested his participation in couples counseling in a non-belligerent, sincere, and utterly serious fashion.
“No” is tantamount to declaring officially, “I am uninvested in this relationship.”
It may come in countless forms, among them:
“You’re unhappy, that’s your problem.”
“Go get help yourself.”
“I don’t need help. You’re the one with the complaints.”
“Nothing makes you happy. You are insatiable.”
“It’s pointless”¦seriously, get your own sh*t together first and then let’s talk.”
These, and countless similar responses, which blame you and exculpate him, while simultaneously affirming his perspective of the relationship not as a unity or partnership but more as a “sole proprietorship—¦these kinds of responses tell you all you need to know.
But now let’s say he says “yes,” and joins you in couples therapy. That’s nice. If he’s a sociopath, as I’ve written previously, you will hope the therapist will be shrewd enough to know that he, the therapist, is dealing with a sociopath. Because sociopaths do not belong in couples therapy. But for purposes of this argument, let’s imagine he’s not a full-blown sociopath.
In any case, as I’ve been suggesting, it is the evidence, ultimately, that will tell the tale.
He will either change meaningfully and permanently, and begin making these changes in earnest, very soon; or, he won’t.
He may or may not talk the talk effectively, persuasively. But if he doesn’t walk the walk and maintain the walk, you will have gotten your answer.
Walking the walk doesn’t mean it’s necessarily onesided; you too may have changes to make on your end. Nobody’s perfect, and even if you’re involved with a salvageable jerk (the best case scenario and hope), that doesn’t mean you too don’t have room to make some changes.
But let’s not kid ourselves, or let him kid us. If he isn’t motivated to leave you feeling more fulfilled, loved, respected and less neglected; if there isn’t evidence of his sincere desire to do this, and evidence of his willingness to work hard at doing this, and finally, evidence of his success at doing this, well then again”¦.we have our answers.
And let me repeat this point: the changes need to be sustained. Transitory changes made from desperation are more likely to revert as complacency creeps backs in. The regression, as complacency reenters the picture, will tell you something very important, namely that the changes weren’t made from a deep, or deeply honest enough, place.
The interesting thing, here, isn’t that any of this is a news flash or rocket science, because to the contrary I’m aware how almost insultingly obvious it is. The really key thing to beware of is the pervasiveness with which we’re inclined to put, or keep, the emotional blinders on in such a fashion that we either fail to proactively seek this evidence of a parnter’s commitment to change or else, seeking and discovering the partner’s lack of commitment, we find ways to minimize and ignore the urgency of the evidence’s meaning and message!
I will write about pathological hope as a defense mechanism next week.
(This article is copyrighted © 2011 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
As far as “studying” them, I don’t know, Skylar Goodall; but considering that you’ve already spent a quarter of a century studying spath monkeys in the wild, I have to wonder how many more apprenticeships you could possibly require?
Yes Louise, I think conventional wisdom regarding “compromise” and so forth in relationships is just so much BS. At least as far as the “big” things go, like truth-telling, honor, empathy, and the like. I can only speak for myself, but I refuse to budge so much as an inch on these issues!
LOL Constantine,
A person can never stop learning, but I get your drift. you made me crack up. thx.
I lack enough humility to admit when I’m wrong sometimes. If I had had the opportunity, I would have stayed with the spath to study him. Thank God that fear made me run. I didn’t even have the imagination to think that he would poison me. That’s what I mean. I can’t advise anyone on what they should do, I can only relate what happened to me, in hindsight. If I had stayed because I thought I could handle it, I’d be dead. The spaths have NO LIMITS. That is what we have to know before we make our decisions. THEY HAVE NO LIMITS.
Fear can often be a great substitute for humility.
Dear Constantine,
I’m with you on this one, ONE AND DONE! One lie, one nasty outburst with name calling, blame placing, etc.
ONE AND DONE. Works for me!
living with a physco is like living with a physco – this brings back memories of the hypervigilance I lived with – trying to salvage him and the mess he had made out of my life – I remember the threats he made and the love he professed in the same breath – sleeping with one eye open – planning a life together and wondering if this nitemare will ever end at the same time – your right Sky they have no limit’s, he would still be rockin my world if I was so inclined.
I think the key answer in the article of above is the “big change”… What our spaths did was change some little things: help out in the household, stayed at least a few nights at home without going out, went to work for 2 weeks, took us out on a date one time… But they relapse or keep on doing the big issues which have not changed at all.
In a way it was good he and I had to live at long distance at times… I know I helped him less over time when he was in Nicaragua by himself, because I felt that certainly after several months, he had had time enough to get a job and work his life out more, even if it was supposed to be just for a while until his papers were in order. I was able to see over time how he kept on making excuses and ruined his own chances. It took time, but I could get the info on the bigger picture from a safer distance. I lost time though because I clung too much on the hope based on small changes that were no more than bandages for the bleeding. But when the mask came off, I was ready to accept the full reality that he would never change. Perhaps that is probably partly why he jumped ship. I was not helping anymore financially for months already, because I felt it was his responsibility after all that time (couldn’t either) to get on his own 2 feet, and accepting less and less of his excuses. I actually started to say “no” on his requests without an apology. Meanwhile I started to do certain things I used to do by myself again, before I met him.
All in all, I probably would have ended it soon myself. He just wanted to have his alternatives ready for when that time came, and dump me first. The reality is that I broke up with him a week befor,e, not having any hope at all, but went back on it after several days because of the bond addiction.
Not that it made me suffer any less in the aftermath.
Hens, you described the experience so simple and yet perfect… When I’m triggered, it is not so much the details I remember, but the hypervigilance, the sleeping with one eye open with my wallet under my pillow… it was mental torture by sleep and peace deprivation
Being raised by my Grandfather who was a military person, I was taught not to take disrespect and things such as I have just came through and experienced with my ex spath. I was taught to cut away the chase and only regard that which is deserving and honorable and respectable. WHY I allowed “IT” as close to me as I did, without noticing all the ‘red flags’ that I sort of acknowledged was there but believed the longer you expound on all the negative, that is what you will have: negativity. So, I chose to believe in someone that I thought perhaps was WORTH the efforts and the pain and the torment and the TORTURE I went through for “IT” and because of “IT”.
I endured a very long time and I am here to tell you that after almost ten years of this (and yes, I am still being stalked) and reminded of the threats upon my life…often. WHY? Why am I being targeted when I have done absolutely nothing to warrant any of this?
I will tell you why: because with spaths there is no rhyme nor reason. They live on instinct. They react by instinct. They are basic and primal human beings who have a preset determination to be selfish and consuming. Yes, we all HOPE for the best but the best doesn’t always come; does it? Unless WE MAKE IT happen.
For me, putting an abrupt and very NOT NICE AT ALL “END” to this drama and chaos in my world was absolutely necessary for my survival in more ways than one. It isn’t easy cutting a part of us away. Especially when we have no real explanation for everything the way it has come down.
But, instead of focusing on our emotions, we need to be using our heads and realizing that these people are distorted and ill. Or, they were just predisposed to BE the way they are; OR, they are making conscious CHOICE to BE the way they are. If they didn’t want to be the way they are, they wouldn’t be. RIGHT?
We are all responsible for our own choices in this life.
It is soon to be six months NC on my behalf. Although “IT” is going = kicking and screaming. 🙂 I have absolutely NO DOUBT nor worry for my safety – but that doesn’t mean he won’t try.
It’s just a matter of time now. Healthwise, I received a great report from my cardiologist last week. He has put off talking any further surgery for another four months and has increased the dose of all my medications. I am still scheduled for a colonoscopy/biopsy within the next month. It has been difficult getting medical approval for this, with my heart condition.
Thanks for the wishes Ana however I have forsaken all relationships about me until I am healed. They never seem to work well. With my ‘new found knowledge’, I find myself not wanting to tolerate a whole lot and I am self sufficient, I need no relationship around me. No where in the handbook of life does it say that we MUST be a part of an equation in order to be whole. I am just grateful to have survived my heart attack, and the spath attack as well.
It hasn’t been easy, to say the absolute very least, but we have survived it. I HAVE SURVIVED IT. My life deserves much better than the nightmare I had been living in all these years. I am sorry for the sick person I banished and the way his life is. But nobody chose all that but himself. HE made it happen and I can’t hang on any longer.
Trust me: if the stalking doesn’t stop, I will make it stop.
I will definitely use any legal means at my disposal and have already ‘informed’ “IT” of the same and have made all such provisions.
It seems to never end; doesn’t it? 🙂
It’s not an affectionate stalking – it is a stalking of ‘ill well’.
It is not flattering in the least. It is ‘sick’ and ‘twisted’ and ‘off base’ as it always has been.
They say if the devil knocks on your door and you open it and let him in, it would be ugly just like this. I had to get the devil OUT OF MY LIFE or I would not have survived. Literally.
No: no ‘hoping’ here. That small little flame that pilot light of hope, inside my heart, was murdered and I have had to accept that my heart was lying to me – still – I was believing in someone who hated me and everything I stood for….everything I DO stand for…so much so, the vortex quickly sucked in everything about me…I was giving unconditional affection to a psychopath who found it not only amusing but decided that it would try to take as much as it could, including my life, if I stood in it’s way…it was love bombing me to death and I mean that completely literally.
Where I used to have ‘hope’ that ITS life – with or without me – would straighten out, I have no ‘hope’ for “IT” anymore. I give up. But I am not giving up on MYSELF ANYMORE!
AFTERMATH, darwinsmom, that is a GREAT way to explain it. We will be fine. We will learn to reprocess all the ugliness and come to find a comfortable spot to rest our minds over all of this. I remember and I think I will always remember the good mixed right in with the bad – but now when I think of it all, it doesn’t hurt near like it used to….it’s finding it’s spot inside me now. Like water finding it’s level.
I can relate darwinsmom: hyper-vigilance, 24/7 for about 10 years over here…
MY GOODNESS what we allow our hearts to get us into!!!!! 😉
Peace, love and light to you all for a 🙂 weekend!
THIS life and this world is meant for US too…xxoo
Dupey
Super Dupester your reference to LIGHT:
Amazed by all the reference to ‘LIGHT’ on LF. Examples such as ‘seeing the light’ ‘going to the light’ ‘living in the light’ and ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ and so many others. It is the place we can’t imagine when we first come here. I believe all good starts at the moment that lightbulb is flipped on. Do you remember the very moment you started seeing truth in the light? Wondering what special meaning ‘the LIGHT’ has to other LF posters. Shalom
Hi I have just found this site and hope somone can help me as at the moment I feel bereft. My guy certainly ticks alot of the boxes and my head tells me to get rid and move on, but deep inside i still feel attached. When we met he overwhelmed me with flattery, attention and hounded me in a nice way until he ‘got’ me. At first and for quite a while our relationship was the best thing that has happened to me. He had, however, an ‘ex’ which he was meant to finish with to be with me. They had some joint property abroad and he told me he was being cordial with her so she didn’t steal his half of the property as it was in her name and they had not yet received title deeds. I accepted this because I believed in him when he told me he had waited all his life to meet someone like me. It turns out that he disappears abroad to this property frequently. I can never go. He is there for up to 2 months at a time. He can’t answer his phone at night even though he says they are in separate rooms! we always fall out because I don’t believe him but when he comes back he sweet talks me back with plausible reasons for his behaviour. These are usually to do with protecting his investment til he gets the deeds. Why do I feel so miserable? And why would I want to be with such a liar? he says he lies so he dosent hurt me! I enjoy his company- should I use him the way he has used me and should I tell this woman what is going on??
Dear PK,
Welcome to LoveFraud. Sorry you “NEED” to be here…but glad you are, because this is the life-tansforming place to be when you are involved with a toxic person.
You ALREADY know what he is—he is a Liar and he says he “lies to KEEP FROM HURTING YOU?” LOL ROTFLMAO Yea, right and I belive that like I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you and an ocean-front property in Arizona!
This man is using you, USING YOU…he is lying to you…and you need that why? So he can LIE to you some more with “sweet lies” when he is sleeping with someone else in another country for several months at a time?
PK each of us must make our own decisions about relationships and anything else in our lives, but from MY past EXPERIENCE, I would dump this guy TODAY…cut him off and never speak to him again, no matter how he tried to get to me. I would block his calls, his texts, his e mails, and then learn about how to spot the RED FLAGS that indicate a person is dishonest. But I’ve had the EXPERIENCES, and I’ve been here for 4 years learning about how to spot them and the ONE “cure” for the relationship, and that is GET OUT AND GO NO CONTACT as soon as you see the FIRST RED FLAG. But not everyone is ready to effect the cure yet.
Shalom,
Sometimes the “light at the end of the tunnel is an ON-COMING TRAIN!” LOL Seriously, with one betrayal right after another sometimes it does seem that even the “light” is evil, but eventually we do come to “see the light” and it illuminates the ugly darkness.
I read once that it doesn’t take EVEN MUCH LIGHT to banish the darkness….darkness is a 100% absence of light, so ANY amount of light banishes that darkness. We must sometimes produce our own light, and shield that small fragile flame of light from the hurricane winds of the psychopaths, but we can do it, so many people here have proven that we CAN DO IT!