Sometimes I like to revisit, churn all over again, a prior concern around sociopathy. A number of colleagues were recently stressing the defective quality of empathy in the more sociopathic clients they work with, while I found myself stressing the quality of remorselessness in the more sociopathic clients with whom I work (and have worked).
In my view, remorselessness is a much more serious indicator of sociopathy than lack of empathy per se. I know I’ve stated this in previous pieces, but well”¦here I go all over again.
Many people lack empathy for a great many reasons, depending on how one even defines empathy. But clearly this is true—many of us have a relatively difficult time emotionally stepping into another’s shoes and genuinely, emotionally inhabiting (as it were) his or her experience; that is, feeling their experience with them, for them.
I’d venture to say that a rather high percentage of the general population fails pretty badly at meeting this pretty classical criterion to be considered “empathic.” Of course, nothing is black and white: sometimes we find ourselves experiencing empathy in surprising circumstances, almost unaccountably; otherwise, sensing that empathy is clearly indicated in certain situations, we might find ourselves in suprisingly, uncomfortably short supplies of it?
And so the experience of pure empathy eludes many of us, perhaps even the majority of us, often”¦more often than we might even want to admit.
However, remorselessness is a whole different kettle of fish. A typical case involving a nonsociopath goes like this. One partner, a good communicator, says to her husband, “What you said to me last night in front of our company was humiliating. You have no idea, I’m guessing, how much that hurt me and pissed me off. If you ever do that again, I swear I may never forgive you.”
Her husband, if he’s really honest, might say, “You know what? I really don’t have any idea. I didn’t see, and still don’t, why what I said was that big a deal. I was trying to be funny. I didn’t think you’d take it so personally.”
This husband, we might say, lacks empathy. We don’t even need to know what he said that aroused his wife’s ire to surmise that, here, in this example, taken from a couples session I facilitated recently, he is demonstrating less than optimal empathy.
But he also added, sincerely, “I’m sorry. I am. I’m sorry I hurt you so much. I won’t do that again.”
His wife was only somewhat appeased by his apology because, while it expressed remorse, it didn’t reflect much, if any, empathy. And she wanted more than remorse. She wanted empathy.
I believe it is entirely possible, even common, to express remorse, sincerely, even in the absence of empathically appreciating the impact of the original behavior for which you are expressing the remorse. This is because, if you are not a sociopath, you can really feel bad for hurting someone even without quite understanding why what you did was so hurtful.
Now, in the example above, the partner chastised for his previous night’s insensitivity could have responded differently, reacting to his wife’s feedback with, “You know what? Too damned bad. So you felt hurt? Well”¦get over it.”
This would be a response not only lacking in empathy but also in remorse. As an isolated, occasionally defensive, hostile response, it wouldn’t necessarily suggest the presence of sociopathy; but as a patterned kind of remorseless reaction it may very well signal the presence of sociopathic tendencies.
In the vast majority of cases, the relatively non-empathic individual reacts with some form of true remorse upon learning he or she has been experienced as damaging, even if it comes as a real, confusing surprise to learn this. Again, the typical response might be along the lines of, “Really? I had no idea.” (reflecting defective empathy) “But I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt you like that.” (reflecting remorse).
Where remorse is missing from acts that have been experienced as hurtful, we find ourselves in much more seriously disturbed territory. Sociopaths, of course, may feign remorse, although many times not. But feigned, shallow remorse—remorse that serves his self-interest, not yours—is worth less than no remorse.
A chronic theme of weak, or absent, remorse is thus much more indicative of the sociopathically oriented individual than the measure of his empathy. Oddly enough weak, or even sometimes missing, empathy, doesn’t necessarily preclude some form of meaningful connection with another (although it won’t be empathically-based).
But weak, or missing, remorse fatally does preclude such a connection, ensuring only the possibility of a damaging, exploitive experience.
(This article is copyrighted © 2011 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake only, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaiors discussed.)
LL
your posts are revealing deeper insight into yourself. You ARE healing. It’s wonderful to see. As you can see Petite’s healing, we can all see yours.
It makes me feel so much better, to see you growing and healing. As your mind goes, so will your body.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-king
from what I’ve read this woman is an msnbc correpondant who got cancer as a young woman. When she faced and conquered the sexual abuse she was subjected to as a child, her cancer miraculously disappeared.
These emotional burdens are causing our pain, LL. Do what you can to heal. Know that there are people whom you’ve never met that love you. The human race HAS to win against the sociopaths.
Deborah King has various articles about incest and rape. I don’t want to link them, they are dark. If you want to read more google it.
From my own experience and women I’ve met, women who have had to deal with P’s are suffering from immune dysfunction, myself included. We need to get together and figure this out. It would be a huge step toward the healing.
DEar LL,
I found your revelation for today and I agree that lack of emotions will always surface make the relationship weak. having said that there are enough wifes who continue to remain in the marriage even when they know the whole relationship is emotionally numb.
you said – To tell your next victim that you fucked another woman for over half of yoru second marriage, would go over like a fart in church—”.
you are right, but having said that, my jerk told me he had cheated several times while being married to the wife and then he went for counselling etc. and I was gullible enough to believe, that though he cheated, he would change.
so see how gullible one can be. I think he thought it would impress me as to how honest he was to tell me of his ugly past, which others would normally hide, so he did it to gain my confidence and it worked.
so it does not matter what he tells next victim, he will tell anything and everything that is necessary admixture of truth and lies, enough for her to believe that “he is the truth now” and “not the lie”.
so leave it, I do agree 100% , like hat Aussig, Katy, Oxy and others have said, it will be an ongoing cycle of lies, deceit, stories, none of the women will have the dream fulfilled, the dream that we lost with him can be no other woman’s dream.
petite
Petitie,
I know we weren’t with the same jerk, but it does kinda seem that way, doesn’t it? So textbook they ARE!
You’re right. The new gf has a chameleon. He’s everything SHE wants him to be. Someone I wouldn’t recognize. There is no foundational personality.
He would be unrecognizable to me.
I wonder if these people are ever happy. To change yourself like that soooooooo easily…….it seems so empty to me…worse than feeling empty but with empathy for others, compassion and love…..emptiness filled up by those things, even in times of loneliness……….what would it be like to always search to find something that will forever be elusive? What amiserable way to live and be.
Ox, seriously? I understood the mechanics of your evening with D son, but MY GOD, at the same time that sounds so complicated? No matter lol! Doing things together with those you love IS fun. I had a good night with my kids too. Talking about the Egypt uprising. Interesitng. They pay more attention than I think they do and intelligent too!
I’m glad you had fun Ox.
Sky………..incredible post. I thank you very much. I have heard of Debra. I think I saw her on Larry King Live once. I’m vaguely aware of her story but will google it.
I appreciate your observations of my healing and growth 🙂
I’ll get there
LL
nolarn –
How was work this week? Are you okay? xx
not crazee –
Getting REALLY worried about you. Hope you are safe and well. xxx
aussie-Hi. It appears that the investigation of the alleged allegations against me are over. After filing the police report with the hospital police and having a meeting with the bosses, I spoke with the woman in HR and had a very unpleasant discussion with her. She refused to meet with me in person and I had to defend myself over the phone. She was rude, hostile, indignant and TRIED to initimidate me. I told her that that I filed a police report for workplace hostility and that the district commander had my firearms. I asked her if I needed representation. She asked what that meant. I told her it meant an attorney and she said, “we don’t entertain attorneys here”. She told me that she just didn’t understand why I went to the police at all because it wasn’t necessary. When I brought up the issue of the guns being locked up with the captain she told me that this has nothing to do with firearms what soever and that only had to do with my life outside of work. I said, “I beg to differ, considering, that the initial false accusation was made that I was going to bring a gun to work and shoot everyone!” I think that definitely has a hell of a lot to do with firearms. I asked her what was going to happen with this process and she told me that the comment that I made had to be investigated. I said, “EXCUSE ME, I think you meant, the ALLEGED COMMENT has to be investigated!” She said, Oh well-I misused my words. After that most unpleasant conversation I was in tears again and in the VP’s office and told her what happened with the HR lady. She said, that’s it I’m calling her. This is ridiculous. This whole process needs to stop. It’s he said/she said and nothing can be proven. Later on I was called back to the bosses office and told that they had spoken to HR and that the investigation/process was not going any further because nothing could be proven. I think that she believed that I had adaquately defended myself. She told me that the issue is dead and did not want me discussing it with anyone in the place and the accusing person was being told the same thing. I did find out that is was a guy who started the whole thing and I never would have guessed that in a million years. They gave me a day and a half off work with no call to get my head back in the game. When I came back, a guy told me that those mean girls had blamed this accusation on a friend of mine, who happened to be the only one I half trusted in the whole place. He is saying that he didn’t accuse me and that these girls made it up.
This is what I learned and what I believe about the whole issue. I am aggravated that I work in a place where people are basically allowed to come together in a group and slander me, fuck with my head, accuse me of things that could ruin my life and destroy me and gaslight me, AND completely get away with it. There are zero repercussions for what they did and it is all swept under the rug. I feel like they dropped it cuz the knew that I would push the issue to no end and be a complete pain in the ass defending my good name. I told the bosses that since I was innocent that there was no limit to how far I would go to defend my name. I also learned some things about the management. I had the illusion that my head nurse was a fair individual and had some level of empathy-WRONG. I had been told that she should handle all issues and never take them to the VP above her. I was told that the VP didn’t care and wouldn’t do anything to help anyone. She ended up being the one with the empathy out of the bunch. I never brought a problem to her before this. My immediate supervisor is 10 times more psychotic than I ever thought she was-she needs to be diagnosed. That little group of mean girls always spoke so highly of the head nurse as far as her understanding their issues-the reason she does, is because she is just like them.
I went to my police station on Friday to see my friend/Captain’s new office. She was so excited to give me the complete tour of her police station. She was so proud. She even showed me the locker rooms and introduced me to some officers and encouraged me to really work to come back for 2012. There will be openings for me then. She gave me my guns back. She said, ” I guess I was right all along, they were just fucking with your head”.
Nolarn,
excellent work holding youself together. I’m so impressed. Still, I’m not sure that you shouldn’t press the issue. These people won’t stop. I guarantee it. No one was disciplined. Big, Big, problem. If it’s going to be he said, she said, then all the sayers should get their sayings lined up and face the firing squad.
BTW, it isn’t surprising that the one person you most trusted is the back stabber… isn’t that how the spaths ALWAYS work?
The fact that they set you up by telling you that the head nurse was your only recourse, just PROVES how long they were planning your demise. Time to call a lawyer and file suit for emotional injury and workplace harassment. Heads need to roll.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about any of them. I am planning my exit to some other place as soon as I can. I am going to do what I said until then and not discuss it and get out and move on. I am going back to the police academy next year and that is my focus. My former boss at the police said to leave the issue alone.
Skylar, maybe you dont see it or feel it but I think youve made HUGE progress . I can “hear” it in your “voice.”
I know you had a rough childhood, and your life has been one spath after another, but I just wanted you to know I LOVE YOU and if I could Mother you I would.
You didnt get the parents you needed or deserved, and I didnt get the kids I deserved either.
But if you ever need a Mum hug, Im here. I love you Sky.YOU ROCK!!
Love,
Mama gem.XXPs I know you cried over that finding in the bible{the prayer of your ex spath,}, but dont ever regret sharing that. We should feel sorry for these sickos, who have no idea about real feelings.I used to feel sorry for my spath daughter until I realised she would sell me for a dollar if she could. She has NO love for me.Love, gem.
“Cast not your pearls before swine,” and all spaths a re swine!Actually that does a disservice to pigs!
It sure does Gem!
no larn – Great to hear how you have handled the work thing – more power to ya sister!! I am, however, of the same opinion as Skylar; I personally could not let it drop there. Without “discussing it” and keeping it going in the workplace, I would still put measures in place about a formal complaint of some sort over the handling of it. Maybe that’s what the workplace hostility report you did was, or maybe there’s a process within the workplace where it can at least be documented, just in case….
My advice would be to write a letter to the VP, and to cc a copy to the psycho head nurse so that she knows she wont get away with trying to pull any stunts like that again. Something along the lines of –
“Dear VP, further to our discussion of DAY/DATE/TIME at PLACE, regarding the allegations made against me by a colleague, namely that I allegedly said “XYZ” and that I was then spoken to by HEAD NURSE who said “ABC”, after which I took (ACTION).
The agreed upon resolution to this issue, was that ———
I wish for this letter to pleased be placed on my staff file.
I further advise that a repeat of any such accusations of this nature against my good name in the future, will be vigourously defended by my attorney.”
here was an assault across from my place last night, when i go tup this am i noticed the yellow police ribbon anchored to a tree in the park across the street. I looked out and saw police cruisers, so went out and asked what happened. not fully awake, and going only on instinct (wrong, i should of thought about my goal and how to get to it), i asked one of the cops what happend. he said, oh, there was *just* an assault. ahem. i said, don’t ever say *just*. well, so much for getting any more info. out of him. i asked him what time it happened (i work from a heavy sleep at 2 am) and he said he couldn’t discuss it with me. wounded pride is a silly thing.
so, i will call the police stn. later and find out. this park has had challenges, but has been really good for the last couple of years. there are a LOT of students who live on the north side of the park who party hard at night, they get really hammered. i have been calling the police on them for months. was the assault connected with those houses? i want to know if the people were known to one another, or it it was seemingly ‘random’. Parks can be beautiful healing places (and this one is for me), oases in an urban landscape; and also seen as ‘no man’s land’ due to darkenss and relative seclusion, and therefore open to horrible things happening in them. It’s all down to the motivation of the person who walks into the seclusion…will they heal or harm?