Sometimes I like to revisit, churn all over again, a prior concern around sociopathy. A number of colleagues were recently stressing the defective quality of empathy in the more sociopathic clients they work with, while I found myself stressing the quality of remorselessness in the more sociopathic clients with whom I work (and have worked).
In my view, remorselessness is a much more serious indicator of sociopathy than lack of empathy per se. I know I’ve stated this in previous pieces, but well”¦here I go all over again.
Many people lack empathy for a great many reasons, depending on how one even defines empathy. But clearly this is true—many of us have a relatively difficult time emotionally stepping into another’s shoes and genuinely, emotionally inhabiting (as it were) his or her experience; that is, feeling their experience with them, for them.
I’d venture to say that a rather high percentage of the general population fails pretty badly at meeting this pretty classical criterion to be considered “empathic.” Of course, nothing is black and white: sometimes we find ourselves experiencing empathy in surprising circumstances, almost unaccountably; otherwise, sensing that empathy is clearly indicated in certain situations, we might find ourselves in suprisingly, uncomfortably short supplies of it?
And so the experience of pure empathy eludes many of us, perhaps even the majority of us, often”¦more often than we might even want to admit.
However, remorselessness is a whole different kettle of fish. A typical case involving a nonsociopath goes like this. One partner, a good communicator, says to her husband, “What you said to me last night in front of our company was humiliating. You have no idea, I’m guessing, how much that hurt me and pissed me off. If you ever do that again, I swear I may never forgive you.”
Her husband, if he’s really honest, might say, “You know what? I really don’t have any idea. I didn’t see, and still don’t, why what I said was that big a deal. I was trying to be funny. I didn’t think you’d take it so personally.”
This husband, we might say, lacks empathy. We don’t even need to know what he said that aroused his wife’s ire to surmise that, here, in this example, taken from a couples session I facilitated recently, he is demonstrating less than optimal empathy.
But he also added, sincerely, “I’m sorry. I am. I’m sorry I hurt you so much. I won’t do that again.”
His wife was only somewhat appeased by his apology because, while it expressed remorse, it didn’t reflect much, if any, empathy. And she wanted more than remorse. She wanted empathy.
I believe it is entirely possible, even common, to express remorse, sincerely, even in the absence of empathically appreciating the impact of the original behavior for which you are expressing the remorse. This is because, if you are not a sociopath, you can really feel bad for hurting someone even without quite understanding why what you did was so hurtful.
Now, in the example above, the partner chastised for his previous night’s insensitivity could have responded differently, reacting to his wife’s feedback with, “You know what? Too damned bad. So you felt hurt? Well”¦get over it.”
This would be a response not only lacking in empathy but also in remorse. As an isolated, occasionally defensive, hostile response, it wouldn’t necessarily suggest the presence of sociopathy; but as a patterned kind of remorseless reaction it may very well signal the presence of sociopathic tendencies.
In the vast majority of cases, the relatively non-empathic individual reacts with some form of true remorse upon learning he or she has been experienced as damaging, even if it comes as a real, confusing surprise to learn this. Again, the typical response might be along the lines of, “Really? I had no idea.” (reflecting defective empathy) “But I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt you like that.” (reflecting remorse).
Where remorse is missing from acts that have been experienced as hurtful, we find ourselves in much more seriously disturbed territory. Sociopaths, of course, may feign remorse, although many times not. But feigned, shallow remorse—remorse that serves his self-interest, not yours—is worth less than no remorse.
A chronic theme of weak, or absent, remorse is thus much more indicative of the sociopathically oriented individual than the measure of his empathy. Oddly enough weak, or even sometimes missing, empathy, doesn’t necessarily preclude some form of meaningful connection with another (although it won’t be empathically-based).
But weak, or missing, remorse fatally does preclude such a connection, ensuring only the possibility of a damaging, exploitive experience.
(This article is copyrighted © 2011 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake only, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaiors discussed.)
SHMS,
I think this is the same guy I married. It’s all a game to them. The moment I realized that he lies all the time, it finally started to make sense. I’m not crazy!
I think it’s like a big game to them, they get a thrill when we believe in their lies and it’s like a ‘win’ to them.
My soon to be ex would get a stupid little grin on his face when he pulled off some sort of exploitation, he explained it away as a nervous smile and that it got him into trouble when he was younger. Duh! You got in trouble because the grin was the tell (as Skylar would say), it was the sign that he knew exactly what he was doing and he liked it. I think it started in elementary school so he started his hi-jinks at a young age.
We had mediation this week and surprise, surprise, he asked for sole physical custody of son. He alluded to son being uncomfortable around sister and that son really wants to stay with him. So I guess the fight starts.
Spath wanted access to certain money market accounts that he didn’t sign for at the bank. I remember (years ago), telling him he needed to go to the bank and sign on these accounts, he never did. Now he wants access to the money and I said no! He doesn’t need the money, we have enough money in our joint account to cover his move this week. “I need money for groceries, to connect my cable, etc.” We have enough to cover for that.
He said he didn’t trust me with the accounts, riiigghhtttt. Doesn’t trust me? Uh ha. I told him we can work out the budgets in mediation on Wednesday and he does NOT NEED the money today. I was afaid he would take the money, our son and run.
The mediator said that son should spend equal time at both places and spath did NOT like that.
I have to think ahead of spath and not give in to his demands. He’s always planning and who knows what he would do with the money. I hate to be paranoid, his motive could have been just to have more control over the money, who knows. Goodness knows, it’s all about control.
He also looked through my books and listed them all and it’s in his attorney folder. The books he wrote down were the one’s on narcissism, healing and sexual addiction. 10 to 1 he’s going to say that I’m the one with the problem. Now that I’m on to him, his motive has become clearer, to destroy me and portray himself as the victim.
Martha Stout said the pity play its the clear indicator of sociopathy, he is using the pity play to his advantage.
I also agree with Steve’s article on remorse, if their actions show no remorse you need to run the other way!
Harmony,
I’m one of those here, who believes that it’s’ highly possible that BPD’s CAN receive and get help, having empathy and remorse. I do not believe it falls into a precise category such as PD’s that show now conscience and no empathy. I’m happy for you and you sound VERY clear! I think you made a very important point here in that, while having been with a spath, it’s easy to lump all PD’s into the SAME categories as spaths. Not so. I have dependent disorder, does that make me a spath? Uh, no. Anxiety disorder,does this make me aspath? Uh, no. You get the picture. If we’re going to lump everyone into the same category, how many people walking this earth have PD’s then? Oh, everybody???
Obviously, I don’t have professional credentials to sit here in the “know” from an educational perspective. I have had some psychology and it WILL be my major in finishing school, however, I often wonder if experiences, coupled with education give one a more clear perspective. I suppose for some yes, others no, anyway, having lived with PD’s all of my life, I can tell you that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE in those who display empathy. I think Steve did a great job here of defining the battle psychology in general wage about empathy vs. remorse.
I DO think that a lack of remorse IS the single MOST qualifying, readily observable trait of a sociopath. Without a doubt, however, a lack of empathy is ALSO an identifiable trait due to the EXTENT to which it is absent. I believe this comes in the form of the sociopaths contradictions and responses to another’s pain. If one is paying CLOSE attention to these things, their behaviors give them away. If one is REALLY paying attention, just through interaction on a consistent basis,one can SEE the lack of empathy. I also believe that there are degrees of this in healthy people. I’d be the first to stand up and say, Oh oops….in the empathy department. Sometimes, my lack of it, has to be brought to my attention in order for me to put myself in another’s shoes, however, ONCE brought to my attention and assisted to a level of understanding, empathy comes easily. It’s impossible to put yourself into another’s shoes at all times, BUT, I think there is a big difference between that and a PURPOSEFUL, PD traited lack of empathy.
I think BPD’s HAVE empathy. AND remorse. It is also TREATABLE, whereas serious PD’s such as S/P/N is NOT. Other treatable PD’s, anxiety,depression,dependent, OCD, schizophrenia, can as well.
I think this is a slippery slope where we have to be VERY careful. Particularly with those that come here and are newbies, such as myself, because there may be those here who do have other disorders, but are aware of it and working on it. I think miscommunication about PD’s and the tendency to lump all of them together, is NOT productive. It’s hard enough to imagine the destructive tendencies of a P, while integrating the information and sorting through other PD’s. It’s also VERY scary to label myself “disordered” because I automatically assume “PSYCHOPATH”.
I wish you well on your journey, Harmony. What you’re doing is both admirable and I’m sure a lot of hard work. You have MUCH to offer here. I hope to see MORE of your posts that I think could further enlighten us as to your experiences, as well as your education about BPD’s.
I would also like to clarify about Ox. I don’t think she meant to hurt you at all or offend you. We all speak from our own experiences and/or educational backgrounds about this if we so have one. I think it’s okay to agree to disagree or to have exchanges that provide the foundation for more knowledge and personal growth. Oxy gives that to all of us here. I don’t always agree with her, but I have NEVER seen her hurt another on purpose or with malicious intent. 🙂
LL
“If one is REALLY paying attention, just through interaction on a consistent basis,one can SEE the lack of empathy.”
So very true, but thru my own insecurities and ignorance regarding sociopaths, I viewed his remorseless as him simply having “intimacy” issues compounded by my “moving too fast.”
In retrospect to the latter, of course I was not…
No remorse, no empathy, no thanks.
Also, they move on from incident to incident like nothing happened.
Hi LL, Skylar, Libelle, Oxy, Aussiegirl, SIC, Libelle, and other friends,
conference over, he has left for USA few hours ago.
I told him that I needed time for myself, and did not want to continue. I did the “gray rock, behaving uninterested part”, it worked, he kept saying – why do you not have the sparkle in your eyes, you seem to be holding back from me.
He said a few times to me, that we should give it some time and think about it, he did try to lovebomb me, but not to a very large extent, as he could tell from my facial expressions that I was firm in my mind.
He is so devoid of empathy and remorse, I don’t think he can ever give to anyone.
However, I feel relieved that I have finally told him its over, I am so tired now and in some way in the same postion as Lesson has been in for a while – grieving my loss, grieving my dream. However, thanks to all of you, I knew I had to do it, I would not have been able to endure pain in increasing amounts that would have come with time.
I also have realised that his next girl, will be on the cloud nine stage for a while and it will last as long as the mask does not fall off, however, I have come to understand that the mask does not fall – only becoz of his lies, deceit, etc being revealed, it slips and falls, when we, the victims, look beyond the puppy dog face and are willing to accept the red flags and know that we are being conned. I think it is a lot to do with us and this strength is what we get to a large extent by talking to friends on Love fraud.
thanks to all of you and I am sorry if I have missed any names.
regards
petite
Blue
Also excellent point and one of the things that blew me away about my spath. We’d have huge arguments, or he’d blow up about something and the next day or even hours later,would act like the incident never occurred. Great point!
It was baffling to say the least.
LL
((((((((((((((((((((( PETITIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )))))))))))))))))))))))))
BIG BIG BIG HUGE HUGS GIRLFRIEND!!! I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!! YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve been thinking about you a TON, praying that you’d be okay!
I”M SO DARN PROUD OF YA I”D JUST GIVE YA A BIG OLE CHEEKY SMOOCH AND GIANT HUGS!!!! GOOD JOB!!!
Ok, so when you come to Oregon, it’s time to celebrate and have our dinner out!!! I”M SO PROUD OF YOU!!!!
Good for you for being a KEEN observer!!!
This is the HAPPIEST news I’ve heard all week!!! YAY!!!
I’m getting better Petitie, but I’ll tell ya what, if you learned from my experience, you just saved yourself YEARS of pain. YEARS!
You won’t regret it and you WILL have some grieving to do, chica, but I’m just so darned proud of you!! That had to be SO HARD!!!
LL
Thnaks Lesson,
you have been a huge help. with your constant advice, even when I was going back and forth like a confused zombie,
you were so patient and kind to me.
we also had some arguements as you had mentioned in your post above and my jerk also said, why can you not put it in a box and process it later and we still enjoy this trip.
they do not want to hear, rationalise, explain and ask us to put it aside for a while and when we bring it up later for discussion they will say either that they cannot remember what happened or that “why are w eso fixated and cannot let go the past”
so a toxic muddling of our brain.
thanks Lesson, I will need your help for the grieving phase.
yes – our dinner in Oregon is on. glad you are doing better. I remembered your words and words of other posters here on LF – all the time.
petite
Petitie,
I’m so glad…..and I would be more than happy to assist, as others here as well, through your grieving process.
What you just described about your experience with him is totally spathy. You’ve done a nice job in being clear while observing his behavior. I am SO GLAD and see it as a major blessing that Ox and this site could help you gear up for your conference, but in reality, armed with the information, it was YOU who made good choices for yourself, Petitie. Standing up for yourself and implementing boundaries, as well as observing his behaviors, says a lot about your own strength. YOU did this, YOU made the choices that say you will spare yourself years of pain.
you’re VERY strong, Petite. In time, as the grieving process moves forward, you’ll see where you need work that made you vulnerable to him in the first place, armed with the information of constant reinforcements here, from Ox, and your own healing, you’re going to be able to spot these men from a mile away, the better you feel about yourself and if you find another man and you’re not sure, you can come here and post it.
I’m really proud of you. You’re a STRONG, Intelligent, capable woman. Nice job!
LL
Dear Harmony,
I just now saw your post directed to me. I did not in any way mean to hurt your feelings or to condemn you.
There are some overlapping symptoms in all the personality disorders and there is still professional confusion about the criteria for each and what the NAMES even should be. There are also those professionals who will tell you that PPD is “treatable” in that the people can learn some new coping techniques social skills. In fact there is as I remember an article written here by Dr. Leedom about treatment for Psychopaths. Consider also that there are RANGES of symptomology in even PPD (which is officially called ASPD) just as there are ranges in IQ. There are also overlapping symptoms between almost all of the personality disorders as well and there is an interrater problem in diagnosis as well. So another therapist might not label you BBD, but something else from bi-polar to anxiety problems.
If you will look on some of the other threads, some done by Dr. Steve and Dr. Liane, you will see that there is some thought along professional lines that many times people who are female are more likely to be labeled “BPD” than psychopath for pretty much the same symptoms that a male would be labeled PPD or NPD.
Labeling someone with a “personality disorder” is more pejorative than saying someone is “depressed” in our society today, which I think is one reason that many professionals are loath to “label” clients AntiSocial, Narcissistic, Dependent or Histrionic PDs etc unless it is a situation where someone is legally criminal, and even then many times not.
NOT Accepting that they have “problems” is one of the hallmarks of psychopaths (by whatever name you want to call them) and the narcissistic qualities they have preclude them from in my opinion being treatable, because if you don’t want treatment it isn’t going to help you. If you do sincerely want treatment, regardless of what your “official diagnosis” is, there is a good chance your life can become better and your interactions with ohters become better.
Good luck with your journey and with your education. God bless.
WOW,
I just want to be able to verbalize this as well as I can. I’m still a bit fogged here…
I’m beginning to see something of myself and appreciating it too to some extent while being ANNOYED by it in another.
I have a VERY analytical mind. I slice and dice stuff. Maybe I should have gone into research lol! Humor. Anyway….
As I read my post here to Harmony and Ox, your response to it, something occurred to me. It’s been said here to me at various points in this process and I thought immediately of you, Ox, when I thought about it. “It doesn’t matter, he’s toxic, they’re toxic and toxic toxic toxic”. I’ve heard this many times, and not just from you, but also from other posters. I DO see the benefits of that. But it’s yet another label to which FEELS invalidating TO ME, only because of that analytical process going on in my head that tries to make sense of nonsense. I believe there IS validity in understanding a psychopath.
At the same time hearing, “it doesn’t matter, that person or this person is toxic and that’s all you need to know” (not verbatim mind you), I’m also hearing, “He’s a spath!!! and that’s why he cannot do this or that”….so which is it? Or both? For me, identifying, studying, educating myself, becoming apart of the conversation in part out of wonderment, as well as trying to get validation of my experience, the lines become blurred for me. I have a need to “know” to fully grasp and understand my experience. I feel that I’m to learn and read and learn and read about psychopathy, while at the same time, feel discouraged from doing so and dealing with my own issues. I see validity to BOTH. I’m also taking a HUGE interest in this on an academic, scientific, as well as personal level. I don’t think you can learn enough and the arguments stimulate my intellect that I have, for so long, put away in my relationshit with exPOS. Intellect, THINKING, PONDERING, was NOT allowed. That would have meant I caught on. I don’t even think his ex wife fully comprehended how sick he really was, or what to call it other than “he was extremely controlling”. For me, it’s a different ball of wax. KNOWLEDGE empowers me, while also dealing with the emotional aspects to all of this. I feel offended when I feel it’s suggested to simply label ANYONE as a PD as simply toxic and move on, although I GET why that is. If that makes sense.
This is also important to me given my own “disorders” or the reasons I was vulnerable in the first place. I also believe this comes from a serious lack of self esteem. As I see bits and pieces of myself coming together and start to rebuild from scratch what was lost of the remainder of whatever I was prior to spath, I see tremendous good and I also see tremendous work that needs to be done. I DO NOT see myself as a hopeless cause by any means. But I do see issues that I have to deal with. This also is very overwhelming.
So many times, on this blog, I’ve also seen “it’s not your fault”. “Forgive yourself” “You were targeted”, however to me, this combined with “You have issues that fed into being vulnerable to a spath” creates FOR ME a feeling of being defensive and feeling re-victimized as well as confused. So this wasn’t my fault, but it WAS my fault, even though intellectually, I understand it.
I also see that a lot of my guilt and shame is childhood based, and that to some extent it’s GOOD to feel that way, but not so much that it impedes upon progress. I have a tendency to beat the shit out of myself. Something I’ve done my entire life. All of my abusers were the big Gods. It is VERY difficult to integrate a newfound knowledge that that wasn’t so and that their PD’s precluded any advancement emotionally and intellectually. I just assumed they knew what they were talking about when they addressed me and my “issues”. I think this is also why I feel so sensitive and defensive when someone tells me I have “issues” even though I know I have issues. It was one of THE single MOST USED accusation leveled against my by ALL of my abusers. “You have issues”, “You’re sick”, “You need help”…wow, that coming from ALL of my abusers, from childhood too. So with so many saying such a thing,coupled with understanding that I DO have issues and that’s validated here….were they WRONG? Maybe not. This is what has me stuck the most and is a real impediment to my healing process.
LL