Sometimes I like to revisit, churn all over again, a prior concern around sociopathy. A number of colleagues were recently stressing the defective quality of empathy in the more sociopathic clients they work with, while I found myself stressing the quality of remorselessness in the more sociopathic clients with whom I work (and have worked).
In my view, remorselessness is a much more serious indicator of sociopathy than lack of empathy per se. I know I’ve stated this in previous pieces, but well”¦here I go all over again.
Many people lack empathy for a great many reasons, depending on how one even defines empathy. But clearly this is true—many of us have a relatively difficult time emotionally stepping into another’s shoes and genuinely, emotionally inhabiting (as it were) his or her experience; that is, feeling their experience with them, for them.
I’d venture to say that a rather high percentage of the general population fails pretty badly at meeting this pretty classical criterion to be considered “empathic.” Of course, nothing is black and white: sometimes we find ourselves experiencing empathy in surprising circumstances, almost unaccountably; otherwise, sensing that empathy is clearly indicated in certain situations, we might find ourselves in suprisingly, uncomfortably short supplies of it?
And so the experience of pure empathy eludes many of us, perhaps even the majority of us, often”¦more often than we might even want to admit.
However, remorselessness is a whole different kettle of fish. A typical case involving a nonsociopath goes like this. One partner, a good communicator, says to her husband, “What you said to me last night in front of our company was humiliating. You have no idea, I’m guessing, how much that hurt me and pissed me off. If you ever do that again, I swear I may never forgive you.”
Her husband, if he’s really honest, might say, “You know what? I really don’t have any idea. I didn’t see, and still don’t, why what I said was that big a deal. I was trying to be funny. I didn’t think you’d take it so personally.”
This husband, we might say, lacks empathy. We don’t even need to know what he said that aroused his wife’s ire to surmise that, here, in this example, taken from a couples session I facilitated recently, he is demonstrating less than optimal empathy.
But he also added, sincerely, “I’m sorry. I am. I’m sorry I hurt you so much. I won’t do that again.”
His wife was only somewhat appeased by his apology because, while it expressed remorse, it didn’t reflect much, if any, empathy. And she wanted more than remorse. She wanted empathy.
I believe it is entirely possible, even common, to express remorse, sincerely, even in the absence of empathically appreciating the impact of the original behavior for which you are expressing the remorse. This is because, if you are not a sociopath, you can really feel bad for hurting someone even without quite understanding why what you did was so hurtful.
Now, in the example above, the partner chastised for his previous night’s insensitivity could have responded differently, reacting to his wife’s feedback with, “You know what? Too damned bad. So you felt hurt? Well”¦get over it.”
This would be a response not only lacking in empathy but also in remorse. As an isolated, occasionally defensive, hostile response, it wouldn’t necessarily suggest the presence of sociopathy; but as a patterned kind of remorseless reaction it may very well signal the presence of sociopathic tendencies.
In the vast majority of cases, the relatively non-empathic individual reacts with some form of true remorse upon learning he or she has been experienced as damaging, even if it comes as a real, confusing surprise to learn this. Again, the typical response might be along the lines of, “Really? I had no idea.” (reflecting defective empathy) “But I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt you like that.” (reflecting remorse).
Where remorse is missing from acts that have been experienced as hurtful, we find ourselves in much more seriously disturbed territory. Sociopaths, of course, may feign remorse, although many times not. But feigned, shallow remorse—remorse that serves his self-interest, not yours—is worth less than no remorse.
A chronic theme of weak, or absent, remorse is thus much more indicative of the sociopathically oriented individual than the measure of his empathy. Oddly enough weak, or even sometimes missing, empathy, doesn’t necessarily preclude some form of meaningful connection with another (although it won’t be empathically-based).
But weak, or missing, remorse fatally does preclude such a connection, ensuring only the possibility of a damaging, exploitive experience.
(This article is copyrighted © 2011 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake only, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaiors discussed.)
Dear LL,
The “answer” (in my mind at least) to your question isn’t just a “simple” answer. BloggerT and I have debated this for thousands and thousands of words off blog.
First off, even professionals don’t all agree on “what is a psychopath” number one. Secondly not even professionals all agree that a psychopath is “not treatable” (meaning can’t “improve,” however THAT is “measured.”)
Secondly, many of the people that we “label” here on Lovefraud as Psychopaths would NOT SCORE 30 points on Dr. Hare’s Psychopathy Check List-Revised which is what it takes to be officially “labeled” a psychopath for legal purposes.
We can say safely “I Think He scores high in psychopathic traits.” But there is no one here who can say just from hearing a story about someone “he is a psychopath” because there is more to diagnosing one than just one or two stories about someone. I personally think Tiger Woods in s psychopath and I think Bill Clinton is both appear to be cheating pathological liars. I think John Edwards is as well, but you know, they have never been diagnosed and I can THINK all I want to, or even talk badly about them, but really that is all I am doing. However, at the same time, there IS a definite HINT that the behaviors these people do that are public knowledge are pretty pathological, and show a pattern.
When I am walking down the street sometimes I see some elderly man or elderly woman and I can tell by looking at them that they most likely have congestive heart failure (CHF) I can’t “diagnose” them by looking at them, obviously, and yet I get a pretty good eye for it because I have seen this professionally in my office in clinics for many years. I can usually spot a person who is on high doses of cortisone for some problem too because it gives their face a particular look after a while….and so on. But that doesn’t make it a “legal diagnosis” per se.
The same can be said about what we so frequently call psychopaths here—many of the ones we label psychopaths are probably NOT actual psychopaths just high in the traits, and TOXIC to others, not likely to have a good relationship with someone. Yes, there are times it is very necessary to professionally label someone antisocial personality disorder or psychopathic, like in criminal trials or by parole boards who are trying to predict future behavior of some inmate.
As for our relationship issues, however, the main thing we need to tell the differences with I think are HEALTHY or UN-HEALTHY.
Is the person you are dealing with healthy for you, or un-healthy for you. are YOU behaving in a healthy way or in an UN-healthy way?
Every little deer that gets eaten by a cougar is not at “fault” for not being more alert, sometimes there is just “bad luck” and being in the “wrong place at the wrong time” that gets us caught, but at the same time, there ARE things about some of us that make us more vulnerable to being “caught” by a toxic person than others. It is pretty common that those people who are trapped into a relationship with someone who is toxic, unhealthy or high in psychopathic traits has “boundary issues” which allows toxic or abusive behavior to be more easily tolerated and they may have more difficulty breaking away from a toxic abusive relationship than someone with better boundaries might.
Learning about “psychopaths” and learning about how to live a healthy life and protect ourselves from being abused, learning how to set appropriate boundaries, how to accept responsibility for our choices and yet not get entrapped in self blame, these are all things that many of us have to work on,, and it isn’t a process that is accomplished over night, it is called GROWTH and hopefully will never end, we will hopefully keep on growing, working on improving ourselves and our relationships with others.
lesson learned;
“Also excellent point and one of the things that blew me away about my spath. We’d have huge arguments, or he’d blow up about something and the next day or even hours later,would act like the incident never occurred. Great point!
It was baffling to say the least.”
I do remember reading somewhere that many sociopaths have a background of abuse that leads to dissociative behaviors that carry on into adulthood.
“Dissociation represents one of the major classes of psychological defense mechanism, extending along a spectrum from mild, everyday expressions, such as absorption, to extensive, amnestic events and personality fragmentation. The sociopathic variant of dissociation consists of emotional detachment and diminished responsiveness to emotional stimuli.”
Ox,
LOL! I think Blogger T is extremely intelligent and I can imagine the colorful conversations you must have on this issue. It is FASCINATING to me.
I agree with you for the most part, but I think that there must be some validity to “labeling” and thus, understanding the content within the label. I’d rather know what’s IN my product from the store rather than assume it’s safe to eat, ya know? If I had a food allergy and didn’t read the label for content, I might actually choose something that might KILL me if my food allergies are lethal.
Same for psychopath. For example, Donna put up the ten signs you may be dating a sociopath. THEY ARE CORRECT!, however, let’s delve into this issue a little more….are the psychopath/sociopath/narcissist all the SAME insofar as a diagnosis? I’d love to get my hands on a DSM. A friend from long ago suggested that I look at one and read about PD’s. Anyway, I have tendency to want to deviate from the perspective of the prison inmate population and diagnosed psychopaths, to the ordinary everyday FUNCTIONAL psychopath who wreaks havoc and destroys lives left and right without ever setting foot in a prison cell. You have dealt with an extreme form of psychopaths, as well as have I, because first P was in jail (and soon will be again), and is obviously parasitic and an outright psychopath if I’ve ever seen one before, violent, alcoholic, blahblahblah…..while that is and has been very important information, as given Bob Hare’s research and book (excellent book by the way), informing the GENERAL population about a sociopath without solid concrete labels and solid concrete CONTENT about it, allows victims to question their experiences to the extent that there isn’t a SOLID diagnosis. How can we inform the general public about this issue when there is conflict about spectrum and labeling even within the realms of psychology itself as well as professionals who devote their lives to the study of these illnesses or to helping victims recover from their experiences?
Someone who may be out there, living with the hell that a sociopath is, and just saying, “well this healthy/unhealthy” I think FAILS the victim and their experiences. I know A LOT of unhealthy people that DO NOT fit the criteria for sociopath/psychopath/Narcissist, but it is only in DEALING with these people on whatever level in close proximity that is different than ANY other “toxic/unhealthy” relationshit.
Do you see what I’m getting at here? If we cannot “accurately” label a sociopath as a sociopath and back off when it comes to doing so, how can we go out into the public realm and give all kinds of signs and symptoms of a disorder that isn’t defined, then further invalidate a victim of a sociopath by saying that “Well we don’t really KNOW for sure, but it doesn’t really matter because toxic is toxic and unhealthy is unhealthy”…the reason I say this, Ox, is because the DEFINING factor in all of this, other than obvious “symptoms” (even on a spectrum), is that it may POSSIBLY give false hope to a victim of a sociopath that “unhealthy” can become “healthy” again. I have YET to see ANY sociopath, Narcissist or psychopath “cured” of anything. Ex POS is in therapy and has been for over a year. SO WHAT? It changed NOTHING, and in fact, he was viewing his therapist with contempt and in JEST!. I have a feeling he lied to me about that and that his therapy was probably a deal breaker for his ex wife in allowing him to have joint custody of the children. It’s my opinion that even while she claims he was “so controlling” she didn’t comprehend FULLY what she was dealing with in being able to LABEL it accurately, thus saving herself MUCH more pain and aggravation in dealing with him, and believe me, he derives MUCH joy in tripping her up anyway he can. Therapy? Whatever. Show me a psychopath/sociopath who is fixed and I’ll show you my ten million dollar winning lottery ticket.
Ox, I’m not “arguing” with you per se as I understand what you’re saying and I get the toxic labels, but because of the way my BRAIN works and now my invested interest and fascination in learning MORE about this, it creates MORE questions rather than answers.
How will there EVER be advancement in this area if there can NEVER be a clear “diagnosis”? How can victims be helped if we’re not even sure about what the label means or how to define it and the spectrum and people, even professionals are too AFRAID to apply the label….
I could go on for hours. This is definitely waking up apart of me that has been asleep for a long,long time.
LL
Those suffering from other personality disorders don’t have to be incapable of empathy. I think of the absence of any real capacity for empathy as distinguishing the true psychopath from other personality disordered people. People with other personality disorders can usually display empathy some or even much of the time, depending on the disorder. The problem is that they can fail to be “empathetic” (or even minimally “considerate”) toward others some of the time or in certain circumstances. That can be because of their total self-absorption in their own issues, or because of underlying anger, fear, or other obsessions that drive them, which “leave no room” for them to indulge in empathy. It’s highly confusing to anyone when a personality disordered partner can be apparently considerate toward them some of the time and downright abusive at another time.
Borderline personality disorder seems to express itself in quite a range of symptoms and severity. Sometimes, unfortunately, it’s been used as a catch-all diagnosis for people who may in fact have some other condition. Often it’s not well defined where one condition leaves off and another one begins.
Still, it would be a mistake to assume BPD isn’t real, and it can be very serious. In particular Dr. Donald Dutton, who’s had decades of experience treating and studying chronically abusive people, discovered that a large proportion of abusive, including violent, males in his treatment groups had borderline personality structure. While people with BPD don’t have to be violently abusive, there are borderlines out there who can kill you if you’re in an intimate relationship with them. It pays to remember that some people don’t have to be psychopaths to be dangerous.
In the same way, some schizophrenics are harmless enough–and some of them are “Son of Sam.”
REd,
VERY good post!! Nicely articulated and well understood! You provided a great perspective that I’d not thought about.
There are many abusers in programs that are NOT psychopaths but that do display other personality disorders that are/can be deadly.
I do know an old grade school friend who was diagnosed with schizophrenia and with medications and therapy is doing VERY well today. I also knew another with BPD that went to therapy and was put on medications and is also doing very very well.
I think it’s possible, those that are treatable. I wonder though, if those with BPD, also have some Narcissistic traits in what has been discussed on this blog about overlapping issues or are they all one in the same?
Very interesting post, Red!
LL
Dear Red, very well put.
LL, there is no designation that is “tall” or a designation that is “short” or “stupid” or “genius” and it is about the same with psychopathic or not psychopathic. Many of the psychological diagnoses are not “either or” but are more correctly labeled “leaning toward X, y or Z.”
You can say someone is depressed—and be correct, but the person may be just slightly sad all the time or they may be to the point that they lay like a zombie and stare at the wall without responding to anything or any one. Both people would be “depressed” but there is a big difference between the two individuals. Psychology is not an “either or” situation as most of us have some form of dysfunction to one degree or another, even the most healthy of us.
The DSM IV is intended for PROFESSIONALS to use as a diagnostic manual and NOT for lay people to use to make “arm chair” diagnoses any more than a Merck’s Diagnostic manual for medicine should be used in place of a physician when we are ill. I’m an advanced practice nurse, but that doesn’t mean I don’t go to a doctor when I need a diagnosis or for advice even if I have a diagnosis in mind.
Not all toxic people are truly psychopaths, not even all killers are psychopaths, and not all wife or child beaters are, but people who behave in those manners are most likely “high in the traits” even if they don’t qualify as a “full fledged” psychopath. People who behave in abusive ways are not people I want to be around, whether or not they are candidates for a psych eval that would professionally label them a psychopath/antisocial personality disorder etc.
I also know that I participated in my own abuse because I did not have nor defend proper boundaries. That made me much more vulnerable to being abused. I can’t fix the people who abused me, but I can and I am working on making myself less vulnerable to predation from others, NO MATTER WHAT LABELS they have or don’t have.
Ox,
I TOTALLY GET that.
I completely agree with proper boundaries too. Absolutely!
I would like to ask you further about this though, but putting into the context of physician/patient relationship as far as the importance of “labeling” with psychology, which is not a perfect science (something else that fascinates me from an intellectual perspective with regards to the mind/body connection, neural pathways, areas of brain function etc).
How many diseases/conditions/syndromes cannot be labeled accurately by a physician? Take for example, fibromyalgia, there is no “Full proof” test for it, but it’s a recognized illness and many have it, including myself. There are other symptomatic/diagnostic criteria that are common ailments associated with fibromyalgia, for example, hypothyroidism and Irritable Bowel Syndrome. There are variations in severity and symptoms, even while there is no diagnostic testing that is accurate or foolproof, but after my diagnosis while suffering and wondering for YEARS what was wrong with me, it was a SIGH OF RELIEF to have a LABEL for it. For years and years I dealt with VARIATIONS of the symptoms but not a COLLECTIVE diagnosis that pinpointed to an UNDERLYING SINGLE CAUSE.
Does this make sense?
I remember feeling that relief when I KNEW something was wrong, and it was finally LABELED. I CRIED when my doctor diagnosed me because I thought I was CRAZY being so sick without knowing what to do about it and having docs tell me what I was feeling was best dealt with by a psychologist. Only PARTIALLY correct. Once I knew that there was a LABEL, I was able to study it further and work on effective treatments, whether on my own, or if more severe, such as with the thyroid, under the care of my doctor. I’ve actually done pretty well, but would do even better without the uterus. Workin on that one,
Anyway, this is the point I’m trying to make with regards to Psychopaths. It would be a RELIEF if I knew FOR SURE BASED UPON A DIAGNOSIS that this person was psychopathic. Even if not “full blown” (although with the last one, only two things were missing on the PCL-R check). I understand that psychology is not black and white and lots of gray areas. But a person who is “abusive” versus those who are abusive WITH Psychopathic traits is an entirely different psychological animal. I read Lundy Bancrofts book over and over about abusers. I thought it was RIGHT ON. But there was a big difference in abusers who were NOT personality disordered. Even though it seems that even those who ARE abusive and NOT psychopathic rarely stop abusing and are toxic anyway.
I do understand what you’re saying about depression and the comparisons in variation of symptoms. I think you’re right in that we are all dysfunctional to some extent, even the most healthy of us. What an INCREDIBLY important point, Ox and I’m glad you brought that up. That also gives me a new perspective on things. I was brought up with black and white thinking and I’d like to open my options more about learning how to impose a spectrum into my existence. That’s really hard for me and I think it is because black and white, either/or, actually “helped” me to survive on some levels even if not with severe boundary issues and dysfunctions. Black and white thinking, either/or, was classic in my fam of P/N/S’s.
I want to be okay with what’s wrong with me, and if it can’t be fixed entirely, I am more than willing and open to acknowledging that but also learning to embrace what’s wrong and honor that part of myself in learning how to balance it. All new stuff to me.
I do see the importance to labels. Can’t fix what’s wrong unless you KNOW what’s wrong. I can’t fix my exPOS stuff, but I can strive to study it, be apart of the debate about it (stimulates intellect for me), learn MORE from it and work on the stuff I NEED TO FIX FOR ME. I think it’s incredibly critical to validate the victims experience, which I think really assists in the shift from it wasn’t my fault to…ohhhhh I have some issues that need to be dealt with so that this NEVER happens again! and in doing that, going from victim to survivor 🙂
Thanks Ox. You stimulate my thinking a lot!
LL
Ox,
Totally off subject here with regards to psychopaths, but I do have another question for you based on my own curiosity.
You have a farm. You butcher your own meat. So do you do this to sell or do you actually eat your own meat? Cow meat? With all that is said here about wholistics, herbs, vitamins, etc, and your low sodium or no sodium program, how in the world do you eat meats and not have issues? I LOVE meat. LOVE IT. Don’t want to give that up. But at the same time, I’ve had high blood pressure and I’m salt freak but have had to lower it quite a bit.
Isn’t read meat just filled with salt anyway? And with you processing your own meat, do you have to salt it quite a bit for processing?
I’d like to know how to continue to eat my steak and roasts (although we do mainly chicken and fish here now), without feeling like my pressure will escalate (under control now), or that my arteries will harden at the sight of it.
LL
Dear LL,
I eat meat that is “grass fed” which means no high carbohydrate feeds have been fed to the cattle (long story why cows should NOT eat corn and we should not eat cows that have eaten corn) I also raise ducks and sometimes chicken. I used to raise goats and milk them but don’t do that any more.
I no longer eat jerky or corned beef or other processed meats that I used to make myself. I also no longer eat cheese as cheese has lots of salt added to it in order to make it. Milk itself has quite a bit of naturally occuring sodium so I limit myself on milk. I’m trying to figure out where I can get turkey that has not been “injected” with sodium, guess I will end up having to raise my own.
I use lots of herbs and spices in foods and have eliminated all the spices that have salt in them….am very careful about b reads (read the labels carefully and limit amounts of breads because of the salt) and frankly am just about having to RE-learn to cook and how to make foods that taste good and are not loaded with salt. American heart recommends 1500 or less milligrams of sodium per day for EVERYONE, and they think the average American diet is 5,000 to 8 K of sodium, and mine, prior to my change in diet, was probably 10,000-15,000 mg per day. I would eat salt right out of the shaker on a daily basis.
I’m trying to keep my calories above 1200, but below 1500, per day and am doing pretty good with that, my weight loss is slow, but I have lost about 28 pounds now. I have the sodium down to about 1,000 mg most days, and am working on getting that a bit lower as well, but not take away anymore taste, just looking for ways to cut a few mg here and a few there. Also I find that now that I have been on the lower salt eating plan for a while, if I do eat anything that is higher in sodium I can sure TASTE the salt.
I’m also working on getting some granola bars and other snack foods that I can “take along” with me. I went to a party of sorts the other night and I took along a thermos of a chocolate shake I made for that kind of thing when I am on the road during a meal time, and an apple, but I’d like something to take along that is something that I can take like on the train ride I took (11 hours) so I would be able to skip a couple of meals and still do okay.
I understand what you mean about the fibromyalgia or having a label or a name for something is helpful, but there are also some things that are not things that can be labeled or put in a box. There are concepts such as “evil” or “good” that there is no true definition of, and so there comes a point we have to be willing to not have a concrete label to pin on this or that psychological problem, or even a medical one.
“How high is up, Mama?”
I think that grass-fed, non-hormone injected beef has much less saturated fat.
Think Bison…