Editor’s note: Lovefraud has received another question from Andrea, who wrote in a month ago. If you have any suggestions for her, please share them.
I am looking for some strong advice on how to help my children deal with their father ”¦ my ex ”¦ who is a sociopath. We have been divorced for 4 years and I have been terrified of this man. Not so much physically, but more just afraid of his bullying and threats. Even though people have told me that his threats are just words and he cannot follow through on them, it is still hard when he is so confident that he is so right and I am so wrong. I have tried very hard to take the high road through all of this and he falls in this gray area between legal and illegal, but suffers no consequences. I have been told that once I stop letting him get to me, he will get bored and move on to someone else.
Recently, I have broken free of his hold and I don’t care anymore. I’ve started living my life and doing what I want. I’ve met a new man who was in the Marines and is an avid hunter. My son has expressed interest in hunting and went with him one day. My ex found out about it the night before and went insane. He told my son that he forbade him to go, but I told my son that he was with me and I was allowing it. My ex started calling the house at 1:15 in the morning and called for about an hour. I tried to talk with him one time, but it was ridiculous. He told me he would stop paying child support and would fight for sole custody if I let him go. (Wish I had that all on tape). Anyway, I let him go because there was no danger, he had an apprentice hunting license, and he was with me that weekend. Now my ex has decided to bully my son. It has been horrible. He is now threatening him and scaring him with things that he can’t possible do. Even though I try to explain to my son what he’s doing, it’s too hard for a 12 year old to comprehend. My son is withdrawn, angry and scared. He won’t talk to me very much, so I don’t exactly know what he’s thinking or how to help him.
How can I help my son (and daughter eventually) not suffer? Has anyone had any similar experiences? My biggest fear is that my son will just give in to my ex and do what he says to keep the peace ”¦ to get positive attention from his dad. The worst case scenario would be my son moving in with him when he’s 14 (something that my ex is working on because he knows it will hurt me). How much should I tell my children? How can I help them? We already have a pact that anything that happens at our house stays between us ”¦ terrible, I know ”¦ but it’s the only way to keep them safe (emotionally).
Thanks for any advice I can get.
Andrea,
My heart goes out to you for the courage it has taken for you to survive and move forward with your life. I also have children with my ex Sociopath, and although they are older, it has been very difficult. I would suggest counseling for them to deal with this, as the counselor would be able to provide age appropriate suggestions for this issue that will be affecting them for the rest of their lives. I also suggest that you be very gentle with yourself, as I have had to deal with the guilt of being attracted to this person in the first place. Then I have to remind myself that I wouldn’t have my children if I hadn’t have met him. I had to learn the hard way that anything I said to my children about their father only caused them to pull further away from me and toward him, and my concern was, and continues to be, that he will harm them, not physically, but with the example he sets. There is nothing there for them to respect, and he has given them no role model to follow. I have had to realize that I can’t control the situation, but I CAN pray for my children, that out of this, good will come for them. I think this is one of the ugliest issues I have had to deal with – that my children will never know a father who loves them. Andrea, I am so greatful that you happened onto this site, and hope you will continue to watch for others who have had this experience. My prayers are with you and your precious children.
I just asked this question of Matt on another post. How do I let my kids know their father’s behavior is not normal, his g/f’s behavior is not what to look for in a women, my daughter 15 has no example of what to look for in a man.
And I offered a prime example of how to tolerate anything and make excuses for their dad -defend and uphold him – till now.
We know it is more dangerous for thewm to be around the NS emotionally – but what do we do?
Can our example really offset what they see from the other parent?
It is hard to heal ourselves let alone judge what will be best for the kids sometimes.
My D15 has limited contact because of his behaviors – by her own choice.
My son 10 is befuddled – confused – catching on -but still wishes away the bad stuff.
And his dad manipulates him l;ike a pro.
Is time on our side? Will the kids eventually come to their own conclusions?
Or is there a risk that due to their own personalities they are even more susceptible to the S?
My d has more sense than me and told me to give it up 3 years ago.
My son is a tender morsel and tries to please everyone -not good. Although he will express his feelings to me, he will only tell his father some things – and only over the phone.
OK – prime example. I just got a call from the after school care that my son was not picked up at the usual time.
Disney dad doesn’t even call to say he will be there an hour later than my son 10 is accustomed to.
And now I worry -do I have to go get him? This is why I never asked the moron to do anything – unreliable!!!!!
“How can I help my son (and daughter eventually) not suffer?”
Even as parents, we can do only so much to protect teach and guild them when completing their own autonomy. My youngest was at the age of 11 when his mother left him. Even through she wanted a relationship with both of my children either one wanted that from her. Too much wrong was done to both of them and they knew that even before we understood was a personality disorder was. My oldest at the time was 14 years of age even had the ideal that maybe if we didn’t call her, she would get the ideal and just quit trying to have a relationship with them. Sorry to say but that didn’t work. She just used the phone like a weapon and continued to hassle them by phone calls letters and birthday cards. Not until (again before we even knew about NC) we stopped all physical contact with their mother did she get the ideal. But then again, it wasn’t like she have any other choose. We cut all phone ties and correspondents and they never once responded whenever she sent them letter or cards. The last birthday cards were receive back in 2007. But they did both write just one letter to her in July 2006, which is as followed: *Note to reader their mother left them on May 22, 2006*
7-27-06 (Both received Birthday cards from her, but JJ was throw away. These cards were so surreal and I believe hurt them both emotionally. Anyway JJ told me he didn’t know what to believe in his card, in short what was a lie or what was the truth. J didn’t want it so I threw it away but wish later I didn’t. J Birthday card I saved but both cards said better much the same almost word for word..
hi J.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! (smiley face drawn)
I miss you a whole lot. I hope your summer is going ok.
I have been trying to call but no ever answers the phone. Im sending you some money to buy something you enjoy.
How are you doing? We are fine R is into everything- he gets yelled at and alot of time outs, he goes to a babysitter when I go to work, he cried at first when I left but now he is okay with it, it is storming here today, It is really foggy everyday-because where we are is in a valley there are alot of hills (mountains) all around us. I want you and Josh to come out and visit a weekend if you would like that.
You can call me anytime you want to I start work at 730 in the morining and im back home about 230 300 p
Please call me, I miss you. I love you xxoo
take care
love (smiley face drawn) mom
[her Wisconsin phone number]
Happy Birthday
Say hi to JJ,
Because the children would tell DC over and over again on the phone that they didn’t wish to speak to her on the phone and never would come and visit. As stated in the journal we all decided that maybe a written letter from both boys would get the point across to her. My sons both told DC many many times they didn’t wish to talk with her on the phone but she just refused to validate their wishes.
JJ’s letter was type:
D,
I have been meaning to write this letter so I can stop all this nonsense. first things first stop calling I don’t want to talk not now not never. Second this is the only letter I’m going to write so don’t write ever. cause I wont write back. got it. Third I don’t want to see you or visit you keep that in mind. forth don’t ever call my friends, they don’t need to get in tangled with this, also stop asking “how is your summer”, It sucks got it. not to say but I’m sick of the lies and the crap you keep saying, one other thing is me, J and dad cant be more happy that you left so stop calling and writing letters it just get us all mad again about your stupid stuff so let us be, got it. this is all I got to say so leave us alone.
PS. leave us alone
JJ signed….
J was handwritten:
I do not want to visit, see, or talk with you. I do not want to live with you. You made me feel bad, when you left and lied to me, you said his name was Williams but it was Worman. Why did you lie to me? don’t call me any more, I don’t want to talk wit you. I want to live wit JJ and Dad. Why do you keep calling us? I love R and hope he is doing fine I want this to end, stop calling me. Dont right back
p.s. My summer sucks how is your summer?
These two letter from my sons were the hardest letter I ever had to read. It still bring me emotional pain even to this day…..
Your children too like yourself will learn that having a relationship with a p/s is toxic and then they will just (“Recently, I have broken free of his hold and I don’t care anymore. I’ve started living my life and doing what I want.”) go on and live their own life’s but only when they are mature enough and understand this problem in their own way. People who suffer from PD’s do thing that destroy relationships. Never does it nurture or build them. We all get tired of being abused and use and then in the end just walk away from those that “just don’t get it”!
We are going on 3 years of NC currently. Sometimes this is the only way to have peace and one’s own happiness. But also remember that NC always come with a price and sometimes a very heavy price indeed….
Good luck, 🙂
Deaar Andrea,
I empathize with you so much. The Ps us every weapon they can lay hands on to hurt us, and children with them is the most punishing thing they can do….so they do it. to hell with teh children’s pain if he can make you hurt!
I think the counseling idea is the ONLY SAFE AND SANE WAY to possibly help your children and get through to them that his behavior is off base and that his rages are NOT normal.
I would suggest that you totally stop talking to your X. If you must communicate…short, no-emotion e mails. “You can pick up Son John at school at 3:45 on tuesday.” (and get receipts for these e mails when he opens them.)
Do not discuss anything with your x.
As for your son and daughter, I would simply tell them that “dad and I do not agree on how to be good parents.” or “Dad is very angry at me, and sometimes when people are angry at one person, they strike out at others…don’t take it personally. That doesn’t mean it is good to strike out at someone when you are angry, but many people do this anyway.”
Set a good example for your children, show them love, respect and conern and do the best you can under the circumstances and PRAY to whatever faith you hold! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for you and your children.
Andrea, Good advice from all the Lf”ers. Oxy once again, perfect pitch…. ” we don’t agree one how to be good parents” amen to that. I will remember.
What it is about is control, the reason he “cares” is because someone else might have influence over his “possessions” the last hold he has on hurting you – little people he can brag about when they do him proud, people he can cry about how he doesn’t get to see, and so on ad nauseam.
Doesn’;t really make it any easier, just understand, it is not about you or the children or the hunting or the gun or the marine new boyfreind, it is about control.
No easy answers except NC to the extent that you can, and keep the high road, as far as the kids. Keep good records, watch your back. Have witnesses whenever possible, do you due diligence.
They are scum, and unfortunately scum floats to the top. Be a frog and sit on the lilly pad. Sorry for the pun.
It is brutal. Kids do get it eventuall tho’.. Just like we did.
Hope this is not to fatalistic, but realistic. When you give the kids a steady beacon of lines that can’t be crossed, they will eventually value what it took to do that. A heart. Empathy. Realism. Community. Conscience.
My sons are in their mid twenties, and it is heartbreaking, to say the least, to watch them cope with the reality of their dad’s unreality.
Mine played it perfect from a kids point of view for a very long time. And now he has “dumped ” them. We are all making our way, but the shining memory of his fake caring, his fake persona, his fake family guy, is still chilling. How could he get so invested in his own lie. Or how could he choose to just turn a page like that. There is no explaining or rationalizing them. They are not of us.
Hard to explain to an 11 yr old. Better not to try too hard iIMHO. Just love them. And trust yourself.
Peace and love
I think setting an example is a very powerful thing. Never lie to the children (santa/toothfairy/easterbunny excluded). I never, ever lie to my children- even when the answer isn’t warm and fuzzy. I give age appropriate answers- nothing graphic, but I don’t give false answers. I have credibility with my kids. They trust me because I have shown that I can be trusted. That’s power the xs will never have.
During the visitations, while they lasted, the s would tell stories and lie (i.e. open his mouth). After the visitation the then 7/8yo would tell me things the xs had said about me or what was going on. 7/8yo would ask me questions about the info. I would respond, “does that sound like something mom would do/say?” “Is that the right thing to do?” “Is that what you would do?” If my son was asking me these things, I think his inner barometer was going off. I wanted to lead him to and encourage listening to that inner voice and what BS smells like. I want him to learn that its ok to listen to yourself and to make choices that feel right- be they limited at his age. I never made excuses for whackjob s behavior either. Sometimes I simply said, “I don’t know why he did/said that.” I didn’t have to bash the s but I wasn’t making it sound “ok” either.
My kids are “lucky” in that he is no longer in their lives and I’m not having to undo weekly damage. I also try very hard to be extra loving…not blowing hot and cold as he was wont to do or pitting them against each by his affections. As time passed, the 7/8yo began to tell me things about bio-tard (I cannot possibly refer to him as dad-gack) that hurt his feelings. (There was also counseling during this time.)
I have now 9yo involved in sports- he has a support system with his coaches. He gets high-5’s and “way to go’s” from males he looks up to. I don’t date and I have no interest in risking my own wackadoodle dating preferences with my kids again, but my own father and my sister’s bf are good role models and take an interest in my boys. I KNOW it isn’t “the same” as a father, but they never had that with bio-tard either. It’s isn’t optimal, but it is good…and it seems to be helping. The 9yo isn’t so DESPERATE for attention from any guy who comes near. He seems much more settled.
I’m not implying that you aren’t doing these same things- I wanted to add to the other good comments here that I do think consistency and honesty are keys to keeping your kids grounded in reality in a sometimes unreal world.
I truly empathize trying to “co-parent” with an s. It really isn’t co-parenting, it’s damage control.
Dear Glinda,
Some really good advice….right on the nose! DAMAGE CONTROL. LO ROTFLMAO, how right on!!!!!
A dear friend of mine who has a P son is the mentor for her granddaughter. The little girl, I’ll call her Kim, says to her GM, “He tells me he wants to know what I think, and then when I tell him, he yells at me and gets mad. I don’t trust him.” Kim is 13 and she is already getting it. She is very fortunate that she has a wonderful, caring grandmother who gets it too!
This darling smart little girl is “getting it” about her father, that he CANNOT BE TRUSTED. Many children do get it if they have even ONE person in their lives that will mentor them, even one good parent who doesn’t play the “games” and is, as Glilnda said, HONEST with them.
I Like how Glinda put it about when the kids talked to her about what the P had said, she ASKED them “does that sound like me?” rather than saying “That lying so and so….!” Kids are pretty darned smart really, and they observe a lot that they don’t talk about either unless we encourage them. so I think that was a GREAT way to do it.
Good luck to all of you who have had to co-parent (damage control) with a P. Fortunately I didn’t have to do that! that is one adventure I missed, and I am so glad! LOL
Thanks Oxy.
Just for the record, my first reaction to my 7/8yo’s questions was, in my head anyway, “That lying rat bas-!” LOL But it just would have made me sound the same as the xs…I took a gamble that my son saw my behavior as I thought and tried to live my life. Whew! He seems to- big exhale! LOL
It will probably change about the time he turns 14…but as Mark Twain said, he’ll be impressed at how much I’ve learned by the time he’s 21 😉
http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Psychopath.htm
This is a very good start! And What he says about not trying to Get help is what we all already Know! The Preditory lifestyle.