Editor’s note: Lovefraud has received another question from Andrea, who wrote in a month ago. If you have any suggestions for her, please share them.
I am looking for some strong advice on how to help my children deal with their father ”¦ my ex ”¦ who is a sociopath. We have been divorced for 4 years and I have been terrified of this man. Not so much physically, but more just afraid of his bullying and threats. Even though people have told me that his threats are just words and he cannot follow through on them, it is still hard when he is so confident that he is so right and I am so wrong. I have tried very hard to take the high road through all of this and he falls in this gray area between legal and illegal, but suffers no consequences. I have been told that once I stop letting him get to me, he will get bored and move on to someone else.
Recently, I have broken free of his hold and I don’t care anymore. I’ve started living my life and doing what I want. I’ve met a new man who was in the Marines and is an avid hunter. My son has expressed interest in hunting and went with him one day. My ex found out about it the night before and went insane. He told my son that he forbade him to go, but I told my son that he was with me and I was allowing it. My ex started calling the house at 1:15 in the morning and called for about an hour. I tried to talk with him one time, but it was ridiculous. He told me he would stop paying child support and would fight for sole custody if I let him go. (Wish I had that all on tape). Anyway, I let him go because there was no danger, he had an apprentice hunting license, and he was with me that weekend. Now my ex has decided to bully my son. It has been horrible. He is now threatening him and scaring him with things that he can’t possible do. Even though I try to explain to my son what he’s doing, it’s too hard for a 12 year old to comprehend. My son is withdrawn, angry and scared. He won’t talk to me very much, so I don’t exactly know what he’s thinking or how to help him.
How can I help my son (and daughter eventually) not suffer? Has anyone had any similar experiences? My biggest fear is that my son will just give in to my ex and do what he says to keep the peace ”¦ to get positive attention from his dad. The worst case scenario would be my son moving in with him when he’s 14 (something that my ex is working on because he knows it will hurt me). How much should I tell my children? How can I help them? We already have a pact that anything that happens at our house stays between us ”¦ terrible, I know ”¦ but it’s the only way to keep them safe (emotionally).
Thanks for any advice I can get.
Hi all, Sort of on topic, Has anyone ever “won” with one of these people? Are there success stories from some survivors out there?
I am having a crisis of confidence, as I saw the ex P recently, at an event for my kids, and altho I avoided eye contact, his murderous look could be felt without even looking directly at him.
I am still fighting to expose his unspeakably vicious shenanigans legally, and for the first time have come to be really concerned about what kind of pandora’s box I may be opening. To the point that I worry about if he will try to harm my kids in some way if I really fight. I know his demeanor is intended to intimidate, but I also know that I am engaging a barracuda in a death match, or so it feels.
My personal financial survival is at stake, and I cannot see walking away at this point, yet his presence in the room, and how he sucked all the air out of it, has me gasping.
His “support” for my kids looks and feels very much like what James put so well
“Those that suffer from s/p only want their children to stay “children” and then be there for whatever supply they can use them for. Their children are there as any possessions they own; just like a car toaster or a family pet. Their children don’t have a right to their own autonomy personal power and individuality.
Can anyone share an experience of actually getting some justice?
To date I have been holding my own, keeping my mouth shut and being civil. It is so chilling that he can express all this rage at my getting out, when in fact he has betrayed me from day one, on every level. That he expresses all this fury, when in fact he has destroyed my future, my dream, my life, my family.
I am beginning to get the heebeejeebees about what the next chapter will look like, and keenly aware that my efforts may be in vain. Very sick feeling after almost two years of preparing for battle.
Insights appreciated.
Peace,
eyeswideshut:
“My personal financial survival is at stake…”
There’s your answer right there.
My personal experience was that these subhumans count on us caving. When I finally slammed back against mine for the money he owed me, he was genuinely stunned. I reported him to the IRS.
And there has been no response.
What I learned is that the only thing they RESPECT is the meanest son of a bitch on the block. If you don’t go after him, he will continue to torment you for time eternal. If you do go after him, it won’t be pleasant, but you may (a) get your money and (b) get some control over him by making him fear you.
EYES wide open
Stop! I advocate no attempt to get even! What goes around comes around ! You do not need to be the one to do it. Get them out of your life as much as humanly possible so you can recover ! Get them out of your head so you can do what is necessary to Heal. stop fighting them and move to a Higher state of being one without chaos and tramua and stress. Letgo LetGod There is no b etter revenge than to get your life back and your sanity! Peace be with You!
Dear Eyes,
JUSTICE is justice, NOT revenge. IF you can get Justice, go for it, but not JUST FOR GETTING EVEN.
Even if you do get justice though, they will see it as ‘revenge” because they did (in their mind) NOTHING bad to you.
IF you can recover something financially, I would say go for it, if the odds are bad, or if it isn’t much, then mark it a bad debt and go on….don’t waste your time. Just look at the BENEFIT vs COST ratio, and tehre is always a cost in dealing with them. It may not be in dollars but it is a COST. Good luck.
eyeswideshut, you’ve probably heard the comment that the only way to deal with a sociopath is to be a sociopath. You may not think you have it in you, but you do. Sociopaths are just stuck on one side of the human spectrum of responses, and there is nothing that they do that isn’t natural to us. The difference with us is that we can operate on both side of the spectrum — the “taking care of myself” side and the “how is this going to work for all of us” side.
So, I’m with Matt. But here’s the caveat (which also puts me in agreement with IT). This is not about vengeance. It is about taking care of yourself. There might be some features of what you do that look like vengeance, out of context. But your ultimate objective is to take care of yourself and your children.
As far as his evil eye goes and the air he sucks out of a room, that just means he’s being successful at getting what he wants — you feeling like he’s more powerful than you. I would suggest that you will become a lot more powerful as soon as you get clear about what you want. (Not what you don’t want, like for him to leave you alone.) But what you want in positive terms. You want your money situation settled in favor of you and your kids. You want to live in peace. You want you and your kids to have the freedom and confidence to move forward into a good life.
Knowing what you want is grounding, and helps to position him in your mind as exactly what he is. A nasty obstacle that needs to be disposed of before you can get on with your life. And will help you develop the necessary ruthlessness to do what needs to be done.
Ruthlessness is a word that gets an undeserved bad rap. There is a great book called “Thick Face, Black Heart” about an oriental philosophy of enlightened ruthlessness. All this really is taking responsibility for the costs, to yourself and others, of going after an outcome that you think is worth the cost. In this case, you have to live with the idea that your winning will probably involve his losing. If you can ethically handle that — and I think you have every reason to consider his losses unimportant — than you can move forward with clear eyes and determination.
At that point, you are his match, and really no different from him. He is after what he wants, and doesn’t care what it costs you. You are after what you want, and don’t care what it costs him. But you have a huge advantage. It’s something that he would like to think and convince you is a disadvantage, but it’s not. You have feelings for other people and you understand the social contract. His ability to navigate the feeling world is a shallow veneer that won’t hold up under pressure. He will show who he is when faced by people who don’t buckle.
If you want an example of someone who pulled off a successful fight against a sociopath for herself and her children, check for ErinBrokavich’s story toward the bottom of the thread under “After the sociopath, how do we heal? Part 8.” It will inspire you.
But the important thing about what she did was that it was about her, not him. It was about what she wanted, and what she did to get it. That kind of focus is the most powerful thing in the world. And it changes how we look at their behaviors.
Yes, they continue to be scary, because they have no feelings or scruples. But there is even power in knowing that. Once we starting thinking about their “typical responses,” we can begin to out-maneuver them. Clearly, if violence is involved, that out-maneuvering may involve bringing in the law doing whatever we have to do to protect ourselves physically, but in the mental game, you can win. You just have to be a sociopath in dealing with him.
Finally, anger helps. From Erin’s writing, I gather that she was fueled by anger. Being a sociopath is tiring. The emotional landscape is arid, and feeling people don’t like staying there. But anger is a wonderful thing when you’re dealing with a sociopath. It helps you be hyper-sensitive to what’s happening and to see through things quickly. It keeps you focussed on “making things right” in terms of your own wellbeing.
Back to vengeance. Sometimes it’s part of what we do to get what we want. My relations with my ex include warnings to him not to try to reenter my professional sphere (where I trained him to make a living). My objective is to keep him as far away from me as possible, because I know that nothing good ever comes from his proximity. He probably experiences it as vengeance. My intention wasn’t vengeance; it was taking care of myself. So a lot of this stuff depends on the eye of the beholder.
I know this is all pretty theoretical, as usual with me, but I’m sure some other people can talk about more concrete examples.
Wishing you righteous anger, a clear vision of how you want this to come out, and the will to do whatever it takes —
Kathy
EYESWIDESHUT:
YES, YES, YES…..I am here to tell you….IT CAN BE DONE!!!!!!
Everything Kathleen, Oxy, It and Matt stated is correct…..
You need to decide on YOUR situation, because we are all different people walking similar paths…keyword similar. NOT EXACT!
For me….NO QUESTION….140K in debt on CC’s, major heath obsticles, kids and assets.
I booted the S 18 months ago for the final time…..he contributed NOTHING, since date of seperation. I made strategic moves, it was tendious and tookover my life…..I didn’t feel I had a choice…I made that decision. I went full bore ahead like a heat seaking missil and hit the target spot on, on Wednesday the ‘funeral’ was held.
Kathleen is so right…..as horrid as it sounds….you are aware of sociopathic behaviors, you have educated yourself on them, you will need to slip into the role of a sociopath occasionally to do this. I used it all against him…..things he would never think I was capable of doing….(me either frankly), but I did it with one goal in mind. I first determined “who’ I could trust…..(very few people), if I had any question what so ever…they were out! Even my family. My kids never knew what I did…..creeping around in the middle of the night 4 am, taking my car back…..doing all the recon I needed and then some. I had tools, that ironically, he bought me for our ‘last’ x-mas together….oh, how he has no idea how he contributed to his own demise on THAT level.
You need the basics….digi camera, digi tape recorder. USE THEM!
Keep talkiing to people that you know, know him and see him regularly or even occasionally. Any tidbit of information is good, even if it seems unrelated at the time. I even went on a date with someone I knew had information…..OH IS THAT NOT THE TIP OF THE ICEBURG! Fabulous dinner with lot’s of information given, unkowningly by my ‘date’.
Plant seeds, not too many.
Keep your own reputation stellar, do not give any emotional responses to anyone in public. Stand up for yourself to others.
I heard over and over….”OH, your both crazy”…..I stopped a mutual friend one day after he made this statement and I said…let me ask you something…..you make this statement…..Have you ever been first hand witness to anything immoral, crazy, unethical etc…that I have ever done to yourself or anyone else YOU know of? He paused, and said…Erin….that’s a good point….No, I can’t say you have ever? I said, Have you ever heard of anything…OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THE S, that I have done that was even questionable? He said….No, really I can’t.
I asked him, well then why do you feel so comfortable making that statement in regards to me? Could it be your own inability to deal with the reality of manipulation against YOU by this man? it’s too overwhelming to put your arms around, so you are willing to discount me and my character for your own inablility to cope? He appologized and I left him pondering…..
Character and how you have conducted yourself in the past is CRUCIAL to being successful. DON”T EVER REACT, this is a set up…….as peessed off and violated as we are, and have every reason to react….DO NOT! Once we react, they can say to the world…..see, they are crazy…..see what they have done? Etc….
Ever wonder why women destroy cars, spray paint messages on homes like CHEATER, LIER, etc… break windows……I now believe it’s because mostly they have been pushed too far this is how they respond….I am sure we have all fantasized about this…..BUT DON”T DO IT! KEep it a fantasy. You know what I have done to the S in my fantasies…..HA! but no one knows this, hence it keeps my character and reputation in tact out in ‘society’.
I used MOST every resource I could use, …..and threw ethics out the window for this one.
You must remain balanced or you will tip your own scale. Pull back when it becomes too overwhelming. Use self control. (DANG, I learned about that), Dont EVER take chances out of desperation.
KNOW YOUR ENEMY!..
I have written ‘THE RULES TO RECON’.
My girlfriend and I joke about them EVERY DAY! We were a team. She is my rock, my counterspy, my coconspiritor, my partner against crime. We had a team. One day she would ‘take one for the team’ one day I was. We recruited ‘team members’ unbenknownst to them that played integral roles……Oh, the recon we have done together…Thank GOD I had her to walk my path with. We held hands the whole way.
She kept me grounded and honest with myself.
So anyways…..if you don’t have any other choice, and your not in a position to walk away…..I say go for it….but be totally prepared and keep your eyes WIDE OPEN!!!
I am here to tell you……
It can be done. You must take the fear out from of it all, and watch your back.
eyeswideshut:
When Kathy and I talk about “to get rid of a sociopath, become a sociopath” what we are talking about is you must turn off the guilt; turn off the love; turn off the understanding; turn off the compassion; turn of the pity; and turn off the rationalizing.
By turning off all human feeling, it is easier to frame whatever you have to do as “this is nothing personal, S. It’s just business. Strictly business.” You must view this as a fight for scarce resources — money, shelter, whatever your objective is. I can guaranty you, any odds you want to cover, that S is viewing things this way.
Besides, I’m going to pass on some advice someone on this site gave me when I first blogged on — “if you don’t go after S for the money he owes you, you will kick yourself forever.”
While I can’t speak directly to your circumstances, I have a pretty good feeling that if you don’t go after your S for the money, he will use it against you by enticing your kids with it every step of the way. When you frame the issue like that, having to fight back and not only getting the money, but maybe driving the S out of you and your kids lives, suddenly seems like a pretty good idea, doesn’t it?
Matt, IT, Kathleen, Oxy, Erin, Thank you thank you thank you. I am going forthwith to read Erin’s post on part 8 – Healing-
Your words are empowering and true. For the record, I am only seeking justice – there is no avenging the reality he stole-faked-gaslighted whatever, there is no revenge for the lost years of questioning, reading, dragging to therapy, self examination, trying,abandonement, fake and constant crisis, control, and joy killing.
Mine was very very subtle but brutal beyond belief, pshycologically(sp?) as I have discovered more and more as I peel the onion. And I am now convinced that they reserve a special scorn and bloody hatred for those that have seen them without their mask.
When it is over I can tell more details, but his behavior violates lots and lots of legal boundaries, and he is counting on me caving under his withering ill will.
Again, thank you all for helping me suck up some courage. I have gone this route because it is right- because I have rights-because I could not live with myself if I slithered away to destitution in fear. I know I need to fight the good fight, and yes – a little calculated ruthlessness will likely be in the cards.
And I do remember Dr. Leedom saying in a recent post that she would bet against the P’s in the long run, because eventually they screw up.
My ex P seems to get hung up on the petard of his own arrogance regularly.
You are a wise and noble team of survivors.
Peace
Eyeswideshutnomore….
Yes.
Its possible.
Key word. Prepared.
Other key words… no contact. no emotional responses. no self-inflicted fear…only fear instinctual/actual circumstances directed at you — then seek protection.
I won a judgment (small but still a victory).. I had copies of checks, messages, witnesses, etc..
Final key word…and you seem to already have found it….believe in yourself, your rights, your righteousness.
Be very careful about playing him at his own game for “payback, greed, he did it -so I can” which you dont seem to have in you… those types of actions may unexpectedly set you back….karma is good…when its good karma you are practicing for yourself!
Justice can and will prevail – but it too is a journey of sorts — you will be tested — but just stay true to yourself and what you believe in. Never engaging in one on one or face to face confrontation in or out of courtroom. You owe him nothing. No face time… Just calm, cool collected “Im done and moving on with my eyes wide open and my steady strong honest voice will be heard in court only” attitude.
The opposite of fear is gaining control of yourself, your surroundings your self-everything. But as oxy said having courage in the face of fear doesnt mean we wont fall sometimes, we just have to pick ourselves up and keep going doing the best we can!! ….(Sorry OXY, Im getting CRS…I TOTALLY botched what you said to me…but tried to make sense of it best I could)
Good luck EyeswideshutNOMORE! 🙂
Thank you Learned, I will stay the course and as a wise attorney once said to me, “keep my head high, my ears open and my mouth shut”.
I have just read Erin’s post back on #8 . Erin, I wept for joy for you reading that you perservered! you rocked!. And a judge got it! So happy for you and your children and for the lesson for all of us,
All your collective courage and wisdom, and sadly, bitter experience gives me strenght. Every day.