By | November 3, 2010 78 Comments

LETTER TO LOVEFRAUD: I fear for my granddaughter’s life

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following e-mail from a reader who we’ll call “Veronica.” If you have any suggestions for this worried grandmother, please post them.

I’m desperate and very afraid. I hope you can help and help quickly.

My daughter was married to a man, who by all accounts, appeared to be the most wonderful guy in the world. It wasn’t until after she left him that she finally confided in me as to the truth of their relationship and I was horrified. I know he is definitely a sociopath.

For 5 years he made her life a living hell. The only reason she stayed with him she said was because it was the only way to protect her daughter. She left him over a year ago, and filed for divorce in May of this year. She was also given an order of protection (which he has violated numerous times), as he threatened my daughter and told her he was going to take my grandchild out of the country. We even showed the judge a video this man had made using his cell phone of himself badgering and pushing my granddaughter when she was only 18 months old. He cried when he saw the video. He told the judge my daughter made him do that. He said that’s the method they were using to potty train her. I sat there stunned when he said that, but I thought the judge would see through such an obvious lie! They lived with me during that time, and none of that happened. My daughter asked the judge to let me testify and he said no.

In the end, the judge saw in him a loving father and would not give her sole custody without any contact with the father. This has proven to be a grievous mistake on the judge’s part.

Injuries and threats

Twice we have had to call the police because my 4-year-old granddaughter came home injured. The first time he kicked her. They took pictures, they talked to him and of course he said he had no idea how it happened. Then he started sneaking into my daughter’s yard at night. Parking two doors down at the abandoned house. Each time we tried to get a picture, all we got was his back or a blur as he ran away. The police said that proves nothing. I’ve seen him several drive real slow in front of my daughter’s house with the dome light on, giving us the finger or a sinister smile. He’s gone by the time the police get there. He drives different cars, a black 4 door sedan, a tan Camry, a red Aveo and a dark small truck.

On the 3rd of October he had visitation. When my daughter when to pick up my grandchild, my grandchild ran away and said she didn’t want to go with my daughter. “Daddy” picked her up and put her in my daughter’s car. When they were on the way home, my daughter asked my granddaughter why she acted that way and was told “daddy said if I didn’t do that he wouldn’t play with me anymore, but if I did, he would play with me every day.” My daughter called me and told me about the incident. Unfortunately, I got mad and called him. I asked him to stop using her as a pawn. Naturally he denied it. “I would never do that.” He kept yelling so I hung up. He called back and started yelling again. I said “Look, I just called to ask you to stop playing these games with her.” He said “You think this is a game?! I will show you the kinds of games I can play and you won’t survive.” He yelled, “Leave me alone” and hung up.

A few minutes later he sent me a text message. “You guys need to tell her if she continues to say things that aren’t true she’s gonna get in trouble. And apparently you need to think REALLY hard before you open your mouth about anything.” I know from past experience that was a threat to me and my grandchild. As it was a Sunday, I went early the next morning to court to get a protection order for myself. It was granted. However, it took almost 3 weeks to serve it as he kept avoiding the Constable.

Cigarette burn

On the 16th of October he again had visitation. When my daughter picked up my granddaughter in the evening and got her home, it was about bed time. As my daughter was helping her get her pajamas on, she saw blood and a sore in the middle of her back slightly larger than the diameter of a pencil. She asked how it happened.

“Daddy poked me.”

“Why did daddy poke you?”

“I don’t know, he said it was fair, but it wasn’t.”

“Why did daddy say it was fair?”

“I think he thought I poked him, but I didn’t. I kissed him on the cheek.”

“What were you doing when daddy poked you?”

“I was rolling the ball to (her half-sister).”

“Show me how daddy poked you”

She got up and took her index finger and poked my daughter as hard as she could in the back and moved her finger in a manner like you’d use to crush out a cigarette.

I was in the room and looked at the injury. Something didn’t look right so I went and got a magnifying glass. I said, this doesn’t look like a “poke” this looks like a burn. Because the local police had told us before not to call them, but to contact the police in the city where the incident occurred, we bundled her up and drove to my house and called the police from there. They came out and talked to all three of us. My granddaughter again showed the policeman how the injury occurred and they took pictures.

Two weeks later the detectives finally called him in for questioning. But naturally, he was shocked, he cried, he demanded to know who did it. He even brought in his other two daughters who said they had no idea she had been hurt. Even though my granddaughter had told the officers her older sister had kissed the owie to try to make her feel better. Obviously, he’s threatening her half sisters, too. The detective knew it was a cigarette burn, but here is what appears to be a loving father, so they let him go.

“Make us disappear”

Saturday, October 30th he saw my grandchild again. When she came home she told my mom and my daughter, “Daddy said if I tell the truth, he will kill us all and make us disappear.” We have no idea what to do. The police are starting to think we’re the crazy ones, so we didn’t call to report it.

Last night I got an urgent call from my daughter at 11:30 pm. She said he had been there messing with the outside electrical main box. She said first the back yard light went off, then came on, then various house lights went off and back on. She ran to the back of the house to look through the window at the junction box, but all she saw was him running away.

I went over and we looked at the box. It was obvious it had been opened. We got a padlock and locked it up, then spent most of the night awake with fear. The dogs went wild with barking at 2:30 in the morning. We couldn’t see anything outside, though. We have no idea what he has in mind, but we do believe he is planning to make good on his threat to make us disappear.

My daughter says she regrets divorcing him because now she can’t ensure my granddaughter’s safety. She said she would gladly put up with the abuse if it meant she could be sure her daughter was safe. I told her there would have come a time when not even living with the man would guarantee the safety of my grandchild. No one is safe from a sociopath, and I know it’s the hardest illness in the world to prove.

We don’t have money for security cameras or even a video camera. My mom who lives with my daughter is on Social Security, my daughter has been looking for work for a year and all she’s been able to do is sell cosmetics, and I don’t make enough to provide much support to them. We’re living in fear every day. After last night I don’t feel safe going home, as I live alone. There doesn’t seem to be any way to stop him and nobody is listening to us. Please, if you can help us. Tell us what to do now. We are all out of ideas and he’s got visitation again on November 12th. I fear most for my granddaughter’s life.

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Dani S

Dear Veronica, I am sorry to hear of your story and understand your anxieties. I like your daughter spent far longer with my S husband than I should have because I felt it was better the devil I knew. If I was with him I thought I could protect myself and my children better.
I was lucky as my daughter and I have been free of him for nearly 3 years. I truly feel for you, your Daughter and especially your Grand Daughter. You are doing what is needed and that is trying to get as much on him as possible. It is important to keep building a file on this person and eventually hopefully you will get a Judge that will make the ‘Right’ decision and your grand daughter visitations with her father. The only other thing that I could suggest is having your grand daughter see a (Child) psychologist as they can give evidence in court on your Grand Daughters emotional well being.

Keep a Diary of everything he does and of your grand daughters visits with him, her conversations, everything!

Never give up the fight to protect your love ones. My ex threatened to kill me many times but he obviously found some else he enjoys bullying as I have not heard or seen him in years. He lost control of me and our daughter as I was granted sole custody so he lost interest.
Good luck, and best wishes to you and your family.

Ox Drover

Dear Veronica,

I am so sorry to hear your story, and you have my prayers and my empathy.

I suggest that your daughter (with you as a witness) contact child protective services directly, and that you and she together contact a domestic violence shelter.

The people at the DV shelter have dealt with this kind of man before and they should have some “ins” with the local law enforcement to help protect you, your daughter and your granddaughter. It sounds like this man is holding all of you hostage.

He also does sound like he is VERY dangerous. .My own son is dangerous to me and tried to have me killed, so I am very realistic about how dangerous some of the psychopaths can be physically.

Collect evidence, and keep a journal and also go back and write down the things he has done in the past with as close to the date as you can with as many eye witnesses to this as you can.

Getting a judge to “see” may be very difficult, but contacting those who CAN and should be able to help you, like the people at the DV shelter.

Call the electric company and have a locked box put on your electrical connections outside. There should be one on the meter anyway.

Make sure that you and your mom and your daughter have CELL phones so he can’t cut the line of communication at your house.

A good and CHEAP thing for self protection is pepper spray but around the house Several of us have kept SPRAY OVEN CLEANER and SPRAY WASP AND HORNET SPRAY (it will shoot a stream up to 20 feet) it is cheap enough to keep a can in every room and in your car as well.

If possible, a small yappy dog might be worth its weight in gold.

Make sure you have a LOCKING gas tank cap, and that your car’s hood is locked down. You can’t keep him from cutting your tires or things like that but hopefully you can keep him from putting sugar in your tank.

Always check under the car before you drive out to look for puddles of oil to make sure he hasn’t loosened the oil drain so your oil all spills out and ruins the engine.

Right now he is running a campaign of terror, and having lived in one of those myself I realize how awful and powerless it can make you feel. Worrying about your daughter and your Granddaughter makes it worse than worrying about yourself.

If you have a faith, hold tightly to it and pray. Believe it or not, throughout all the hell my psychopathic son put me, it strengthened my faith in God. God bless you and your family. It sounds like you have truly got a monster on your hands.

Don’t give up until you find the agency that will help you….I think the DV shelter, Child protective services, or a local social worker or mental health worker should be more empathetic than the cops would be. Pull out all the stops. If your daughter isn’t working, and if your GD is on medicaide or has private insurance you might get her to a physician first, tell the doctor what is going on and then see if he will make a mental health referral for the child. Hopefully you can get a mental health provider who knows what a psychopath is and knows what EMOTIONAL abuse and stalking is. Good luck, and keep on reaching out. (((Hugs))))

Dani S

Once again Oxy, very very good advise!


Contacted the PI I used to investigate the SP. He put the information in the SP folder and suggested that I get a small hand held tape recorder(at Radio Shack) and if the guy should call or accost me to turn it on. Words speaks volumes. A woman’s shelter is good advise if you need to escape in a hurry. My SP knows I have video survillance at my home and a security sysytem. It’s better to pay for this than have cable vision.
Thanks for the wasp spray tip….I will absolutly do this.
Stay connected to this site I am glad I found it. I feel that I am pretty smart but this site has already helped me stay the course. Write here everyday.. like a diary that way there is an outside history that he cannot destroy. Stay Strong, Stay Safe and Stay Sane (my new motto)



If there is ever any kind of injury again, how about the local Emergency Room – to have it diagnosed and perhaps photographed. Maybe I’m wrong here, but they may be obligated to call Children’s Services then. Ofcourse, then it could become his word against your daughter’s word.

Oxy is correct, Children’s Services should be contacted, using their emergency hotline, not just a call to regular offices.

And, document, document, document EVERYTHING including the child’s own words.

Possibly a therapist for your grand daughter, that could testify about the trauma the visits are causing. Ask the divorce attorney about having a forensic psychologist do a investigation and recommendation – they look at all sides and are considered neutral. I believe they are more apt to recognize the father’s lies (although not always)

I will be thinking of your family and pray for their safety.

Ox Drover

The digi-recorders are SMALL and very cheap and reliable as well. You can transfer the data to a disk or to your computer and keep copies in a safe deposit box in case the creep burns your house.

Also keep photos of any injuries the child has as well as tapes of her talking about them. Video recorded if possible. Video recorders are also becoming very cheap and maybe if you can’t afford one you can have a friend loan you one or better yet, witness and tape the conversation. (might be better to not let the child see she is being taped so she can’t tell her father)

You can buy cheap nanny cams that are hideable and make reasonable recordings too. Put it in the room where you are interviewing the child. State the date and time of the recording too, “casually” so the kid doesn’t catch on. Or show a newspaper headline clearly so you can identify the DATE of the tape.

Document document document!!!!


Dear Veronica,
This guy is SCARY! I know you’re already scared but I concur with the advise given above. I also think if there is another injury, the E.R. is an excellent idea. They MUST document and report and that would stand in your favor.
If possible, I encourage all of you to disappear as he threatened your granddaughter he would do.
And in all of this, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT..I have learned the importance of writing it down, including time, place and day. No detail is too small to document. When all is said and done, all of those details tell the TRUE story. And pictures and videos? Even better!
Ox, right on! They ARE small and I would make sure it was all safely stored. I’ve also learned the importance of backing up what I’ve documented. I keep evidence in more than one place.

One of the beliefs my ex spath had was that I wasn’t smart enough to keep track of details. He was wrong. I purposely let him think that. I purposely let him think I was actually reacting to him emotionally when in reality, I was storing away details because they were proof and I needed that.
I had to play games myself in order to get proof. I do NOT like games, but if playing those games gave me what I needed, then so be it. It was either play or lose even more, not to mention my son, who finally feels safe with me.

My wish is that you, your granddaughter and daughter and everyone else is protected from this person. He gives me the creeps and I think he has only begun to show how physically violent he can be.
LF is here and you are no longer alone.
Sending prayers for your safety,



You are in a tough place, you, your daughter, and your grandchild. The ex-husband sounds like an absolute creep who needs a bigger creep to put him in his place. Are there other family members, friends, etc. that you could turn to for help? If you lived in my area, I would open my home to you, just to get you to a safe place. Getting some recording equipment would be a good investment, something that you could put on the exterior of the house to catch him when he trespasses onto your daughter’s property. Can you contact Child Protective Services ASAP, telling them what abuse has transpired so far and get them involved in your situation, making it clear to them that this child should not have unsupervised visits with her dad, having them go to bat for you?


Welcome to LF. I’m glad you found us here!
It sounds as if you completely understand ‘what’ your dealing with in this monster.
Now…..what to do about it.

Like the above posts…..Document EVERYTHING. Keep a simple dated journal with pictures printed, statements made, threats, drivebyes…..all of it.
For ‘easy’ recolection.
I am a BIG advocate for security cameras. I don’t care what you have to live without… top ramen for the month…..GET THEM!
They are NOT expensive, you can get night vision, recordable, time stamped, motion sensed cheap ones…..just make SURE they record.
DO that at all costs…..THAT will provide the cops your ‘evidence’ of harassment AND stalking….PERIOD!

Contact Child services yourself.
Don’t ever HESITATE to call the police……eventually they will GET IT! Police are there to SERVE THE PUBLIC. Make them serve YOU/D/GD.
Don’t take NO for an answer. It’s a right and puts the city in a liability situation if the neglect your calls.
DEMAND you file a report.
Take a copy yourself of EACH report you file with the police….BEFORE YOU HAND IT OVER.
Get an extra stament sheet from cops…..and photocopy it….your gonna need extras. This way , with each incident you call fill out the report PRIOR to the cops showing up and when the cops are there, you can spend that time taking them out to the electrical box, or to the abandoned house or whatever to spend that time on DETAILS, rather than you both trying to remember what to write in a statement.

KEEP all copies of EVRYTHING, injuries, statements, whatever YOURSELF…..duplicate that file and keep it offsite.

I’ve learned that we must only rely on ourselves…..and KEEP PUSHING with ALL agencies in order to protect yourself.

Get the wasp spray, oven cleaner……get a digi recorder…$30 wallmart……
Record all of gdaughters statements, (without her knowing and without D or you prodding for information). Be prepared when she does come back from daddy-0’s with recorder and video camera…..all phones have em now.

Key here is remain vigilant, call the cops, follow through and DON”T LET ANYONE, cops or spath intimidate you and silence you.

My heart goes out to you and your daughter and g. daughter…’s a long road…..PREPARE FOR IT.
First order of business……>GET THE CAMERAS!



Oh, and never tell him ANYTHING.
Expect it ALL to be turned back on you…..
You must remain on the offensive…..NOT defensive.

They are masters at the set up.

Expect him to call child services the moment gd get’s into his ‘custody’…..he’ll harm her and then call the authorities to cloud the picture as a ‘he said, she said’ situation.(look what mommy did)….and both parents will be under investigation…’s best your daughter calls first and opens up a case…….this is where your diligence will eventually pay off with the police reports.
Key word…eventually.


This is a very scary story. Once again this is such a wonderful site to reach out to others that can give us all advise and support. I know I come here to relate to my situation and everyone is always very helpful and supportive. An idea I had in a case such as this being as time is of the essence and they seem to being having financial hardships as well, is what if there was a way one of us who may have a little extra money could donate to help her buy a camera or a bus ride? Maybe this site could appoint a secretary that could collect donations to be used in situation like this? I know I would help.



I think that is a good suggestion, having a way to contribute financially (via the web site) to people who could use the funds to help them with their immediate concerns.


Keep in mind……when it comes to the police or anyone else who may think you are all ‘crazy’……

Every oak tree started out as a couple of nuts who stood their ground.


Veronica – EB is the big gun, so i don’t have anything in terms of security to offer, but want to say – it really doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of you. facts facts facts, ALWAYS call when he breaches an order or comes around or hurts your gchild. ALWAYS. you have to funnel your fear into being relentless AND covert. don’t ever tell him anything – it only gives him fuel and a heads up. don’t call him. block his number. block his email. give him NOTHING.

he is not normal and he will not hear or heed the voice of reason or feel contrite or threatened in such a way as to make him back off.

you have every right to call the cops and they have NO right to tell you not to. period.

Ox Drover

Guys, your idea to contribute financially to help others is a worthy cause, but because this is the internet, how would someone be vette4d to see that they are not just conning Lovefraud…believe it or not we have psychopaths who come here disguised as “victims”—but if you really want to help others who are NEEDY, then contribute to your local DV shelter. Send them money, seen them things you no longer need but that are still good. Donate your TIME! Donate your knowledge of psychopaths and your caring heart!

I can see at sometime that LF may have a foundation to help people in financial need from the devastation of the psychopaths, but right now there isn’t a foundation, but give Donna time, she’s already accomplished a tremendous amount.

In the meantime, donate to your local DV shelter, they can use all the help they can get, and then some! I actually wanted to help very badly and took in a woman that I believed had been very badly abused, and turned out she was just a LOSER PSYCHOPATH who had been tossed to the curb by her former victims who caught on! She did a great job for a little while though in presenting herself as a victim. About all I can say about the situation is that she was smart, she was crafty, but I did keep enough of a “clinical distance” that she didn’t take me for anything financially and I didn’t get so emotionally involved with helping her that I was emotionally hurt. I did learn though, and now I give to the local DV shelter and let them use the money and time as they see fit and need it the worst.

Oh, EB, an oak tree is ONE NUT that stood it’s ground! LOL when more than one nut stands its ground it is called a FOREST!!!! LOL (((hugs)))


Money is a problem that can be helped if you shop wisely.
There are two websites I use to get office supplies, computer gear and electronics for free after rebate or for very low cost. and The forum users post hot deals at places like target, Staples, office depot etc…
here’s one now for 29.99
Sometimes people post deals on diapers and stuff from walgreens or riteaid, so maybe you can save money on that to pay for the spy gear.
I sign up for alerts so that if anyone posts a deal on an item I need, I get an email alert. I’ve bought a few webcams this way and you can get coupons for cheap digicorders. black friday is coming up and lots of these come up as loss leaders. I also got some software called video patrol which you load onto your computer and now your web camera can function as a security camera. I’m not sure how good it is, since I never installed it. (I’m kinda a recovering free-after-rebate shopping addict. I used to buy stuff I didn’t need just because it was free or get-paid after rebate. Had over $5000 in rebates one year!) 🙁
Lastly, women’s shelters now give out emergency cell phones to dv victims to make sure that they are safe. they get loaded with free minutes. GET 3 of them. If you already have a cell phone with a MINUTES plan, you get your daughter a very tightly stuffed teddy bear, open it up, put a cell phone inside with the ringer turned OFF AND AUTO-ANSWER ON. Put it into the child’s backpack. Better yet, get her a backpack with a built in teddy bear or some other decorative stuffy and sew it in there. When you call the teddy bear phone from your other cell phone, you should hear it auto answer and then you can hear the conversation going on with who ever is near the bear. Test it several times until you have it down. When your daughter goes to her dad’s, you drive down to the police station and sit outside and call the teddy phone. If you hear him harming her, go inside and let the police or anyone else who is around here it too.
I don’t know the legalities of this in your state, you might want to talk to a lawyer or research it. Maybe Erin B knows.
Further, where I live, the cops are so corrupt that the P had already ensnared them into illegal behavior so they wouldn’t act on the recording I gave them. hopefully, you will have better luck than I.

Lastly, I don’t want to imply that there is no danger, because there is ALWAYS danger with the psychopath and that danger is life and death. But consider a few things:
Fear doesn’t help you think clearly. It is only useful in the fight or flight mode, not the planning stage.
The psychopath uses gaslighting to frighten us because that is when we slip up, we seem crazy (and they seem sane) so no one believes us. Plus we make mistakes. also, they just plain LIKE it when we’re reacting emotionally. it’s WHY they do it. they suck up emotions and they want yours. DON’T GIVE THEM ANY. no drama.
Also consider that when a psychopath REALLY wants you dead, they don’t warn you. On the contrary, they get all lovey-dovey. Remember the Judas kiss when he betrayed Jesus. That’s when you should be really afraid. Oxy’s son sent a trojan horse who befriended the family members. That’s how they like to kill and get away with it. My exP was nice to me while he plotted my demise, and his threats were veiled, “I’m going to punish you for that.”
I’m so sorry that you have to endure this, but stay calm and you can think your way through it.

Dani S

I love the Oak Tree Analogy! lol OXy & EB

Skylar, some very good advise there! My Ex S ran around like a maniac for a few months making death threats, ‘Trying’ to get a Intervention order on me before I could get one on him, making sure he always drove past my children’s school when I went to pick them up, driving past my parent house, driving past our beach house which was 2 hours away, when I there. If I went to the Supermarket magically he was there, if I went to the Petrol Station magically he was there too.
But for me it was all intimidation, scaremongering and I was terrified, I felt I could trust no one not even the Police and I thought I sounded like the crazy one! He was making me crazy!

Usually people that say they are going to kill you, usually dont but I also dont want to down play any S & P behaviour as they are dangerous! The times that the ex s physically hurt me it was reactive, it was about control in that moment, he would just fly into a rage in an instant. While he was busy telling me and everyone else he was going to kill me and plotting my demise nothing happened….

But I also had to move to a secret address, change my phone number, changed cars, and have household accounts in my name and went into hiding! But mine and I only speak of mine always ran out of steam and then would go onto the next victim and I hope this is the case as with Veronica but if you expect the worst and prepare for the worse then you know you have done everything to protect yourself and your family.

Veronica never talk to him, advise your daughter never to engage in conversation with him at any time.

Milo mentioned The Forensic Psychologist and that is who I saw and she was brilliant! She helped my rationalise it, understand it and help me with what I needed to do. Fear is the most distressing emotion and S’s know it.. I turned my fear into anger and fought back and thankfully the law was on my side!
Document, Document, Document!!!! and I love Oxy’s advise about seeking out Shelters for advise! Try anything, everything,everywhere and everyone, that may have answers!

Ox Drover

Dear Dani, LOL EB and I both have twisted senses of humor. or is it sense of HumorS? Not sure. We each got a twisted sense of humor. That gets it. LOL

Skylar’s advice is very good and technology is great too! There are all kinds of things out there from pin hole nanny cams to directional mics that you can point at a window and record what is going on inside the house, and the price of all of them is coming DOWN DOWN DOWN.

I am a technological dummy and don’t even keep up with what is available now, but my son does. If i hear about something and say “Hey, guess what they have now” he says “Oh, yes, that’s been out since august 1994, the price is $xyz now down from $ABC only a year ago.

So Veronica if you have a young geek friend ask him/her about what is available and where to get it cheap.

I also think your best bet is going to be a call to your local Domestic Violence shelter. You don’t have to GO there to get help form them in most cases, at least advocacy for your granddaughter. If there was no child involved you might have more trouble finding help but with a child involved I think you will get the help you need for your daughter and the child.

Professional people generally get pretty serious about protecting a child–not always, for sometimes the psychopath will “snow” even the professionals, but don’t go silently away, keep on making noise to the professionals, and I’d start with the domestic violence shelter folks. They deal with this kind of thing on a daily, HOURLY EVEN, basis. God bless.


Hello everyone,
First of all I’d like to thank all of you for your helpful advice. I was able to find a security camera for $25! I got it setup today at my daughter’s house. It’s a black and white version, but it works and that’s all I care about.
I’m really praying we get the evidence we need.
I know several of you mentioned contacting Child Protective Services. We did that, but unfortunately, they too, think this man is a loving and caring father. They said he responded appropriately with concern and tears. However, he denied everything, so they are calling it unsubstantiated. This is sick!
It’s just like we’re living in the Twilight Zone, you know?
We really need to get him on tape to prove he is not the innocent person he pretends to be.
My granddaughter has to see him again next weekend and I’m just so worried what he’s going to do to her this time.
He’s been sneaking into my yard and I had to put a padlock on my electrical box too. I’ve got my brother coming next week to put in backyard lights for me. Until then, I’m not sleeping at my house. I’m too scared.
I want to take the control of my life away from him and I want my family to be safe again, but I’m just out of ideas as to how to make that happen. How do I feel safe again?
It’s so difficult when the people you expect to protect you – police, judges, CPS, etc. – start to think you’re the crazy person, you know? Thankfully our friends and people at the church are supportive. That helps some.
It’s nice to have you all to talk to. It’s great to have a place to bounce ideas around and get a new perspective. Also, I’m not feeling so alone in this anymore. Thank you.
It’s mind boggling for me. I’ve never had any trouble with anybody. I’ve never had to call the police, I’ve never even had a traffic ticket. It’s like I’m in some sort of horrible nightmare and I can’t wake up.
I am here looking for somebody who can tell us if we’re doing the right things and help us keep my granddaughter safe. She’s just 4 years old and she is so confused. She loves her daddy and can’t understand why he hurts her and why he does bad things.
Frankly, I don’t know how to explain it to her. We’ve just told her it’s important to keep telling the truth, and keep letting us know if he hurts her. We tell her it’s the only way daddy is going to get the help he needs to become a good daddy.
Is this the right thing to tell her?
What do you tell a 4 year old that won’t get her in trouble with her dad if she repeats it back to him?
She’s on a waiting list for free counseling. I didn’t ever imagine there would be a “waiting list” for child therapy.
We’re documenting things she says and events that happen, but having seen how the judge runs family court, I just don’t think he would ever allow any video tapes we make of her into any court hearing. We tried that at the original custody hearing with no success.
Problem is, “daddy” is also making his own tapes. My granddaughter says he films her pretending to be scared and saying she is afraid of her mommy and how she wants to live with him. I think it would basically turn into a “video war” and we’d lose as soon as he turns on the tears.
She says if she doesn’t do what daddy wants her to do, he hits her on the head really hard. She’s come home with headaches. But it’s not hard enough to raise a welt.
My heart is just breaking for her. She looks to me for comfort and protection and all I can do is hold her and tell her to be brave.
I just want this insanity to end. Pray that we get him on film.

Ox Drover

Dear Veronica,

I hear your pain, and your anxiety and my heart melts for you and your family!

Well, if he is filming her “pretending to be scared” then you need to film her saying she is PRETENDING TO BE SCARED. He is obviously fabricating a phony tape, so counter with one of your own, but I would make sure that the child did not know she was being filmed.

Did you contact the domestic violence shelter people? They may be able to help you deal with the child protective services. They have seen this kind of thing before.

Maybe when your daughter dresses the girl to go with her father, she can have a neighbor lady or friend there to examine the child and make sure there are no MARKS ON HER when she goes, and then have that same lady there when the child comes home and gets undressed for bed so there will be a WITNESS to any marks. Also an AUDIO recorder, the digi ones you can have in a pocket and they make pretty good recordings.

Pictures, videos, witnesses, anything you can gather. Sounds like there is going to be a FIGHT.

In the meantime, YOU keep safe.

You are in my prayers and I know that there are others here too who will also put you in their prayers.

What state do you live in? I have a friend in a national domestic violence group and I might be able to get some help through her organization. I’ll contact her on face book and then send donna her information to put you in contact with her. She might have so ideas that I don’t have or know resources I don’t know about.

((((hugs))) and God bless.

Ox Drover

Dear Veronica, Glad you checked back in.

I hear your pain, and your anxiety and my heart melts for you and your family!

Well, if he is filming her “pretending to be scared” then you need to film her saying she is PRETENDING TO BE SCARED. He is obviously fabricating a phony tape, so counter with one of your own, but I would make sure that the child did not know she was being filmed.

Did you contact the domestic violence shelter people? They may be able to help you deal with the child protective services. They have seen this kind of thing before.

Maybe when your daughter dresses the girl to go with her father, she can have a neighbor lady or friend there to examine the child and make sure there are no MARKS ON HER when she goes, and then have that same lady there when the child comes home and gets undressed for bed so there will be a WITNESS to any marks. Also an AUDIO recorder, the digi ones you can have in a pocket and they make pretty good recordings.

Pictures, videos, witnesses, anything you can gather. Sounds like there is going to be a FIGHT.

In the meantime, YOU keep safe.

You are in my prayers and I know that there are others here too who will also put you in their prayers.

What state do you live in? I have a friend in a national domestic violence group and I might be able to get some help through her organization. I’ll contact her on face book and then send donna her information to put you in contact with her. She might have so ideas that I don’t have or know resources I don’t know about.

((((hugs))) and God bless.

super chic

veronica, I am praying for you and your family.
I hope you will be able to buy more security cameras
(when you have the money)
and have them at several locations at your daughter’s place,
and at yours!!! I love to hear that your brother is coming over
to put lights in your backyard. My brother has helped me do
things around the house and he has no idea how much I love him
for always being here when I need him.
I am glad you have family and friends at church who love you. God Bless.


I’m glad you got a camera….this WILL help!

Please keep in mind….patience and stamina is required when dealing with a spath.

Never EVER let him know what your doing, thinking, planning etc….
Strike like a snake in waiting. Hard and venemous.
Which means you need an overkill of venom (documentation).

I think the best thing for your GD would be counseling. The childs advocate will KNOW how to get her to open up and when your GD speaks of these things…..she will have no choice but to report. This will put the spath in the position of CRYING to the courts that HIS daughter is NOT to see this counsellor again. This won’t look good.

Unfortunately, abuse is a HARD thing to prove. But it can be done. Just remain vigilant and NEVER give up!
Don’t lose your faith in the ‘process’……..prepare yourself for the long haul.

It took about 11 violations of an extended order of protection for the spath to finally get arrested…..and even then…..he couldn’t be prosecuted in the end. We (me and my kids) kept calling the police, EACH and EVERY TIME! Filed report after report…….and finally NOW…..the police in my town are FULLY aware of his behaviors and ‘who’ he is and how slippery he is.
IT’s the game they play.

Your behaviors and demeanor must remain calm at ALL TIMES. Don’t let him have ANYTHING on you.

Remember, just because a 4 year old says she wants to live with daddy…….it will be UP TO THE THERAPISTs report……the court will never listen to a 4 years olds ‘opinion’…..they have seen this many rodeos before your spath got there. This is the reason for court appointed GAL’s.
Take the preemptive strike…..and find an available child therapist, even if you drive 100 miles there and back.

He wants you to show fear of him…..and be fearfull of him.
Gather up your strength and NEVER LET HIM SEE YOU SWEAT! EVER! It’s food for him.
Decide on your safety measures and implement them.
Get angry and take action.

DON”T GO ON THE DEFENSIVE…..take the offensive. ALWAYS.
You will never be able to control what/how he does things. Don’t try. …
Plot your own (with daughter) strategy and move forward implementing it.
He will try and derail you at every turn…….just take notes.
Each accusation…..Never take personally…….it’s a gift from him, learn to listen to everything and understand this is what he’s doing or planning……he’s giving you a heads up on his next move.

Don’t appear too eager in your exposure of him……keep the emotions under wrap. (this is difficult but essential).

Keep a balance, don’t let him throw you off balance like he’s doing. Your in control of that.
Fear will paralyze you…….overcome that.

In my horror with the spath, what helped me was to realize, this situation IS what it is…..bad, terrorizing horrid.
So……I couldn’t change that…..but I decided….in order to move forward, I had NOT be afraid to die. That is the ultimate freedom. (I didn’t want to die, I just had to ‘jump’ that hurdle).

Please go and read my article here on LF. Finding your ADAMANT. I think it’s in the September archives.
Once you find your adamant……you can DO ANYTHING!

So….take the offensive, find your adamant and plot your strategy and only strike like a snake…..NEVER respond to him or his actions……EVER.
There is a website called ‘OUR FAMILY WIZARD’ that we recommend also for your D to communicate with the spath on Child issues. It documents everything communicated between the two.

Your going to have to get the game face on and play the game….only YOU write the rules.
He is only doing these things to your GD to get to your D. It works… both can’t let on to him that it is working.

Good luck, stay safe and keep posting and gathering your support and ‘team’.




Glad to hear from you. TWILIGHT ZONE – I too use this term, that is exactly what it feels like. I hear you on not knowing how to deal with this unbelievable circumstance, I too have never even had a traffic ticket. I too am a grandmother. I understand the Children’s Services, sometimes you get lucky and find someone that will listen, sometimes not.

Something I will warn you about. In our state, if you video the child relating things about the other parent, it is automatically thrown out of court and you can be accused of parental alienation. It probably is not a good idea. Seeing he is doing this, hopefully it will backfire. With a child this young, in our state, the child goes directly into the judges chambers, without either parent, and is questioned by a child psychologist ONLY, or like I mentioned in my previous post, a forensic psychologist can be ordered to do an investigation into both parents and the child.

Although I have not used “OUR FAMILY WIZARD” I have read their web site and it looks like the perfect option. I think it is a great idea.

Please stay safe and know there are people on here who have lived it and understand and BELIEVE you.




Another thought – I think therapy/counseling is SO important for your granddaughter, for many reasons. I am sure you have checked and rechecked, but having to wait for free counseling services is appalling. If she is covered under some sort of private health insurance, they should pay for these services. If she is enrolled, or can be enrolled in Medicaid, in our state, they pay for counseling also.

Again, I can only speak to the laws as I know them in our state, but the child’s therapist cannot make recommendations concerning visitation, HOWEVER they can comment and/or testify as to what effect the visitation has on the child and this will USUALLY be taken seriously by a court. This is really HUGE in a situation like yours. I would really focus on this if I were you. It will take time for the therapist to establish a relationship with the child, so sooner is better than later.

Prayers are with you. – MiLo



It is good to hear from you. What is encouraging to learn (from your post) is that you have friends, family members (your brother), and a church group who are listening to you, acting on your behalf. I was wondering if there might be a counselor (and/or therapist) in your church who could meet with your granddaughter, offering his/her services free-of-charge. It’s the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, so raise the alarm about your situation to others, informing people (anyone) about the seriousness of your situation. People might just start coming out of the woodwork, bringing much needed support your way. Finally, how you’re handling your granddaughter (having her tell the truth, trying to explain to her that your goal is for her daddy to learn how to be a good father) is a positive approach. I know that this is an awful experience, feeling BADLY for you and your girls (daughter and granddaughter). Thank God that you’re in the picture, trying to make things better for everyone. Our LF prayers are with you.

Ox Drover

Dear Veronica,

Even though you might NOT be able to use tapes of the child talking, I would go ahead and MAKE THEM SECRETLY (so even the child doesn’t know she is being taped) even if they can’t be used in the family court NOW they might be excellent evidence later in a criminal prosecution of her father. Just don’t disclose that you have them until you KNOW what the reprecussions of the tapes would be.

EVIDENCE in any form is something you should keep SAFE. I would also recommend that you get a safety deposit box at a bank and keep originals of all tapes, police reports, photos etc. in that box where it is fire safe and theft safe. Keep only copies hidden in your own home. Frankly a last ditch effort to get rid of evidence is FIRE so make sure you have a fire safe plan as well. How to get OUR of your house safely in case of fire. Keep your bedroom door closed at night, and locked or blocked from the inside. Make sure you are in a room that you can use something to break a window and get out safely to the ground. I know all this sounds paranoid but just “because you are paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get you.”

Also get you several cans of the wasp spray which shoots a stream up to 20 feet and keep them in childproof or out of reach areas but easily and instantly accessible to YOU, all over your house so one is handy at all times. One in your car, and by your bed. Take one outside to the yard and practice spraying it so you get the feel for it.

And please do get yourself and your daughter to a domestic violence shelter in your area and TALK to them and see if they have any ideas on things you can our should do. They deal with this sort of thing on a daily basis and have counselors and people to help and advise you. Possibly they might get the GD moved up on the list at counseling! Good luck and God bless.


Oxy –

I do agree about making the tapes secretly, making sure that the child does not even know is a good idea. I just know some of the things that we did that seemed perfectly innocent, and were completely innocent, were viewed so negatively by the GAL and the court. Our explanation to our Grandson was exactly what Veronica and her daughter are telling their little one and I still think it is completely appropriate, BUT the GAL viewed it as disparaging the “Mom” and reported it negatively to the court.


Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

If I remember correctly, your GAL was an idiot as well, so maybe not all are like that.

Also, in interviewing a child, I have seen how ideas can be placed into a kid’s head like asking “what did daddy hit you with?” instead of just letting the child TALK and recording it.

Maybe responding neutrally with, “well, tell me more about what happened” rather than “leading questions” also respecting the child’s space, not getting up in their face or even holding them on your lap while they talk.

Just make it “casual” conversation with a HIDDEN CAMERA and you may have to record HOURS OF VIDEO to get the few minutes that you need.

I’ve seen examples of cops questioning kids about being raped, violating the kids’ space, the mom holding them on their lap leading them. Recently one of a man whose children were led into saying me molested them when no such thing happened. There was even a TAPE THAT PROVED NOTHING HAPPENED, and the father spent 25 years in prison…eventually got out, proved himself innocent and was restored with is kids, but WHAT A WASTE! If someone knows what they are doing they can get a 4-5 year old to say anything! even get the kids to BELIEVE anything.

How is your case going? I keep you in my thoughts and prayers. I hope you are doing well and your grandson too. (((Hugs))))



All GAL’s are not like ours, thank God, but parental alienation is the “in vogue” or charge of the day now. In our case the therapist was allowed to ask the questions that our hands were tied (or mouths taped) to ask.

Two weeks ago, during a pretrial hearing, the magistrate hearing the case decided she was to busy to deal with it and passed it on to a “visiting judge”. Our attorney informed us we were looking at anywhere between $35,000 to $50,000 in ADDITIONAL legal bills and GAL, Forensic bills AND because the visiting judge only sat in once a month it could drag out for years. Best part, this GAL would have access to my Grandson for the duration and would basically be able to run the show. At this point, we actually felt it was easier to deal with our disordered S/P daughter than the courts. We reached an agreement – we get our legal custody returned – she gets the standard visitation BUT only if and when Grand wants to talk or visit. He is in control and that is what he needed to feel some sort of control over his life and safe once again. GUESS WHAT – the GAL has to sign off on this agreement and she is refusing!!!! We will hear this week where we go from here. UNBELIEVABLE.

The therapist is now working with Grand on how to accept the fact that the only consistent part of his Mom is that she is
inconsistent, and how to deal with it. I do know just being able to finally tell him that he is not going anywhere, he is home here for good has really helped.

Love – MiLo


that’s excellent advice from oxy to make secret video tapes. Keep them as last minute trump cards.
Make sure that you don’t encourage your GD to say bad things but when she asks you how to stop Daddy from hurting her, tell her to be loving to him and to hug and kiss him no matter what, because that might help protect her. and get all that on tape. Do you get my drift? Make sure the tape is about protecting her, not about gathering evidence on him.

Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

Oh, my dear, it is just too unbelievable a story—HOW COULD SOMETHING THIS CRAZY BE TRUE? I wish it weren’t, But I am glad that you were able to reach come kind of deal with your psychopathic daughter that you and more importantly the child can live with. I can only wish and hope that the GAL is inflicted with the fleas of a thousand camels in her arm pits and the crabs of a thousand “sex workers” in her crotch, and the jungle toe rot of 1000 viet Nam soldiers, and the sand of a hundred dunes in her eyes, and….well, you get the idea….LOL WTF???? UN-believable!!!!

That is the kind of thing that labels US “liars” with people at large because NO ONE COULD BELIEVE THIS SORT OF CARP!

Well, today I got the FINAL bound version of the report my attorney turned in to the parole board on P-son, and it had some documents in there that I had never seen before….police reports from the time the girl was reported missing to when they found her body 2 weeks later, as well as the description of the crime and finding the gun under P son’s bed, and so on.

Reading it didn’t upset me or trigger me, more than anything just made me sigh with relief that it is over and done with, and whatever happens, happens. The attorney put the presentation together well. He probably earned $500 an hour and I did the majority of the 150 hours to pick out the letters to send and so on, but it is done…and I think will be successful. I just hope they actually read it.

I also got part of his medical records in there where he is diagnosed an Anti-social personality disorder and then some stuff pulled out of the DSM-IV with what that means—so maybe it worked out to be a teaching moment for the board.

Skylar, good advice. Good way to slant the tapes so it looks like the family is ENCOURAGING her to love her daddy, but actually that might protect her some. OHHHHHH What we have to do to protect our kids! (head shaking here) Sigh



I will be hoping and praying that the parole board takes the time to read AND understand the report you are turning in. ALL parole boards, everywhere need to understand anti-social personality disorders and rule accordingly. Maybe a panel, made up of everyday people like our friends on LF could travel the country on a teaching mission.

Although I have read that he attempted to “reach out and touch you” from prison, at least it is harder than if he were on the streets. You can rest at night knowing he can’t hurt anyone else and he himself is relatively safe. I am so sorry, but give you so much credit for standing up to be heard.

As for the GAL, next time Grand threatens to punch her (he has several times) I don’t think I will be looking.


Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

Thanks for that validation!

I am sorry that your Grand has to feel threatened by such a person as the GAL. That is just UNbelievable! I wish I thought you were “just making this up” I wish it were NOT true! I wish I were just making this story up, but it is worse than our worst nightmare could be! It is so bad that your Grandson has to worry about being jerked out of his secure and loving home by this D of yours (I won’t say “his mother”) because she is NOT his mother, only his egg donor! The GAL is in the thing for HER own power trip, sounds to me like she is so into power and control that she might qualify as a Narcissistic PD herself.

Sometimes that is the only Part of that “iceberg” of Dysfunction that sticks up above the water line, that NARCISSISTIC CONTROL…but there is always MORE UNDER THE WATER LINE out of sight, but that is what sinks lives just like an iceberg sinks ships. You don’t see it until you hit it!



I sure wish I was “just making this up”, but as you know you just could not make this kind of stuff up, if you tried.

There is more – GAL’s bill is now up to over $10,000 and the way it works is BOTH parties pay the entire $10,000 and then half is returned when BOTH parties have paid. Now, figure the odds the daughter paying ANYTHING, so figure the odds of us getting half our money back. In other words we are paying this woman to sh** all over us.

Oh, and the visiting judge, I googled his name and up popped up all these sites complaining about him, some families have had cases pending for up to 9 years without even having a full blown hearing and GAL bills in the SIX FIGURES. Who could possibly make this stuff up???

Sometimes I feel like that kid in the movie “I see dead people”, except I am saying “I see P’s” That is no way to live, like you I am just a country girl, honest and hardworking who just wants to live out the rest of my life in PEACE. Ofcourse, then I read other people stories and know I have nothing to complain about, not really. Grand is upstairs in his bed safe and sound.

Love – MiLo

Ox Drover

Dear MiLo,

Yep, that is what it is all about! If the GAL settles, she doesn’t get as much $$$$$$. Follow the money! That is such a great line and so true.

Well, you might as well shell out the bucks and forget it, because there is no way you will get “blood out of a stone” or a turnip for that matter. That is the thing that we have to understand about the attorneys and the GALS and the other people who have a vested interest in this sort of thing….it is just money to them and the longer it is drawn out the more money they get.

Justice is no longer available to “regular” people because even a “simple” legal case requires thousands of dollars in legal fees.

I was fortunate to find an attorney that is honest! With this deal with the parole hearing. He is actually the guy my egg donor hired last time to try to GET HIM OUT…but my Attorney knows what a psychopath is and he refuses to work for one. He took the $1500 to “investigate” the case, but when he found out what my son was, he “declined” to take the case any further. Turned down our money!!! Get that, TURNED DOWN our money for the rest of the case.

Then, she hired another one who WOULD take the case.

Okay, so fast forward 4 years from last time….and I called Mr. Smith (the attorney) and told him my story and that egg donor had paid him last time and that because he is THE BEST (best record) of winning cases FOR parole I wanted him…but if my egg donor was the client then it would be a conflict of interest for him to represent me, but as it turned out, though egg donor had PAID HIM, I was the client last time, so he gave me credit for the $1500 on the bill from 4 years ago.

When I first talked to him on the phone and was telling him about my son’s behavior and the whole sordid story I could tell he wasn’t sure about me, didn’t know whether to believe this tale or not, but AFTER I sent him the letters the P son had written to the Trojan horse P etc. he called me back and said “WOW, this man is dangerous!” HE GOT IT!!!

I also sent him a copy of the book, “snakes in suits” as well, but he KNOWS what a psychopath is. REALLY knows! Makes me want to jump up and down and shout for joy!” A LAWYER WHO KNOWS!!!

I wish he was a judge—but alas, I imagine he makes more money as a private attorney and with the kind of clients he has makes a good enough living without being a judge…but would be nice actually! I don’t have much faith in most judges that are on the bench. Wish I did.

The presentation he presented is a good one, but an inch thick, and I hope they will actually READ it. He said he knows the secretary and that OUR presentation will be on the TOP of the stack, so whatever they read from my P son’s parole attorney that I am sure mom hired won’t be the FIRST thing they see. It will be that this convict’s MOTHER AND TWO BROTHERS HIRED AN ATTORNEY TO KEEP HIM FROM GETTING A PAROLE BECAUSE THEY THINK HE IS DANGEROUS.

My attorney said he had never even heard of anyone hiring an attorney to fight the parole of anyone—not even the victim’s family. But the victim’s family will be there I hope. So that should help.

I did get to see some police reports that I hadn’t seen before that the attorney found, and they were interesting. The witnesses that my P son had told he INTENDED to kill this girl all stated that they were AFRAID of him before he killed the girl. Also the girl’s room mate had told the police that my P son had told her he intended to kill the girl, and then confessed he HAD killed her when he gave her jewelry and purse back to the room mate. WTF??? Confessing to the killing like he was confessing to eating the last piece of cake? DUH!? This is a kid with an IQ off the charts, but NO SENSE AT ALL. No fear of consequences. (head shaking here) Just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, except that he is a psychopath.



Our attorney, this round, seems like a pretty good guy. While we have the choice, he always warns us of the cost and actually tries to save us some money. He also “gets it” where the P is concerned. He is himself a GAL, actually helped start the GAL program in this county over 30 years ago. He says he has NEVER run into another one like this in the 30 years. I hope he remembers her name and does a lot of backroom “gossip”. We should have known, we went to the clerk’s office to pick up some records when the case first started. We asked for a motion the GAL had filed, clerk saw the name on the motion and replied, Oh you got that bit** For a clerk of the court to respond that way – well.

Understand – the P daughter has an IQ at near genius level also. Something that has always amazed/confused me is how she never just does the evil deed, whatever it might be at the moment, she makes sure you find out about it, almost brag – just like your son. Many times she could have been home free, but that never is satisfying to her. I think that may be what she wants now. When I went No Contact, there was no one that cared what she did, no one to tell. CRAZY

Ox Drover

Dear MiLo,

My son seems to need an AUDIENCE for his performances. It isn’t just what he does but he wants ATTENTION and admiration from others and FEAR as well. He loves to have people afraid of him.

The police report I read For the first time talked about how other ex-convict associates of his were AFRAID of him. With good reason I expect.

The presentation we put forward looks good and I hope to goodness that they READ it…the attorney says he will Also get a chance to give them oral arguments as well, and I hope the girl’s parents will be there to speak as well, they are the ONLY ones who have the RIGHT to speak at the parole hearing.

After this parole hearing I intend to contact them, I have not done so until now, but will do so through the attorney and see if I can team up with them next time he comes up for parole as well. I want to make sure he NEVER gets out of prison if at all possible and THEY DO HAVE THE RIGHT to speak or send a representative to every parole hearing he has for as long as he lives, so I want to make sure (if I can) that they DO just that!

I hope that your Grand can overcome the rough start he has had with your D as his egg donor. She will probably always pop up in his life like a bad penny, but possibly he can learn to cope with it when he is an adult by having had love and care from you.

My attorney pointed out in his presentation how P-son had told the warden to “stick it up his Mexican ass” and his referring to blacks by the N word (and WORSE believe it or not!) and one of the guys on the parole board is black and another Hispanic so hopefully that won’t buy P son any points either.


*The heart of a child*

Whatever you write on the heart of a child
No water can wash away.
The sand may be shifted when billows are wild
And the efforts of time may decay.
Some stories may perish, some songs may be forgot
But this graven record-time changes it not.
Whatever you write on the heart of a child.
A story of gladness or care
That heaven has blessed or earth has defiled,
Will linger unchangeabley there.

I just found this in the spaths great grandmothers bible.
Funny how she tore this page out from somewhere…..and how sad, but true it is.
She would be MORTIFIED at how the spath turned out.
She passed about 10 years ago…..when she was 99 years old.
She was a lovely woman.


*That wonderful Someone*

In this troubled world it’s refreshing to find
Someone who still has the time to be kind,
Someone who still has faith to believe
That the more you give the more you receive,
Someone who’s ready by thought, word or deed,
To reach out a hand in an hour o need.
-Helen Steiner Rice

This was on the back of the above page in GGmas bible.
This so describes all the giving and warm people here at LF!





thats ok miss erin both post are great…

super chic

EB, those are both really good.
The one about children is so true…
“Will linger unchangeabley there.”
That’s been the hard part to change,
the little girl inside!


I had an interesting conversation with a friend of my parents the other night. I’ve known him my life, and he knew the spath. Funny thing is, his daughter ‘went’ after the spath when I was a teenager…..and I fought for the fucker!
I knew the ‘stories’ he had been told, and he was very interested in speaking with me, he had lot’s of questions.

He’s got a daughter (same one) marired/separated to a spath, he’s Armenian or Turkish, (CRS). But since the day I met her wasband, he creeped me out.
The stories through the grapevine for years have not been good about their marriage. Total spathy.

He and I spoke about Cluster B’s.
He ‘got it’……because I related it to his SIL.
He said he ALWAYS knew spath was a drug dealer……WTF? An 80 year old man….knew…..and I , who lived with the fucker didnt’? He said everyone knew.
I HATE this, and how it devalues me and my hard work building the business and ‘climbing’ the ladder of success……everyone thinks I got ‘here’ from drug money…..

He said one time he asked my parents, when we were separated…….Where spath get’s his money…..and my parents response was……It’s none of our business. WTF? None of our business…….??????
DENIAL! he told them he thought it was drugs……they changed the subject to HIS kids.

We spoke for about 3 hours…..I told him everything…..he thanked me for being so open and informative as it cleared up questions that never made sense to he and his wife, being so close to my parents, and hearing their stories.

He asked me if there was any hope for reconciliation with my parents…..and I explained the danger and betrayal they caused by their ‘relationshit’ with the spath…..and I had NO trust for them, hence I must stay away for our safety.
I told him i’ve worked hard at ‘cleaning’ house of anyone I can’t trust, relationships that are one way and such…..and unfortunately, for our safety…….my parents fell under that catagory.
I never envisioned it this way……EVER!
But I oopened my eyes.
He said, my parents wear rose colored glasses. I said, YA THINK!?!
I explained to him ‘recent’ events of harassment and stalking and it continues to this day…….
He understood my needs, as unfortunate as they are.

He said he didn’t understand ‘why’ they did what they did…across the board….treated me the way they did when so very sick…..and spath contact…….and not coming to my support. Divorce OR illness.
His daughter (bad marriage) was recently diagnosed with cancer….and they wouldn’t think of not being there for her and the g. kids. As her spath didn’t even notice she was gone for her surgery and hospital stay.

We spoke about my childhood, my molestation, of which he wasn’t aware of……but made sense as he has always known My dislike for the creepy brother.
His son was actually the one I publically humiliated my brother in front of when I was 11. I called my brother repeatedly a Really UGLY name……so ugly and embarrasing, so others would ask me why I called him that. His son asked why I called him that, and in front of my brother I said……why don’t you ask him! The molestation STOPPED! (knowing now, I publically used his fear of exposure) It worked! I figured this out when I was in a desperit situation as a KID….and my parents denied it when I went to mother for help and told her. She told me if I coulnd’t say the word “vagina’… obviously didn’t happen then. She pushed it right back on me.
So…….I knew I HAD to make it stop……looking back, it amazes me I figured this out at such a young age. (GO EB!)

He also remembered, and brought up when my parents put my in hospital for ‘bulimia’. I laughed and said, I MUST tell you how that relates to my ‘today’ and what ‘REALLY happened!
It was a spath set up……it was the ‘same’ situation, different context, as this last accused, ‘mentally ill’ round he put me through, faking cancer/stokes.
He used my parents then, as he did this time. (I did have fair warning…… back then)
I told him…..back then I spent my whole life on the defensive….jsut to prove to people I wasn’t ——— (fill in the blank) whatever was the accusation dujour.
I went along with what they asked to ‘get me help’, but NEVER agreed I was bulimic, because I wasn’t! That was absurd to me. I went along to prove to them it wasn’t true.
NOW I know to never go on defensive, you’ll NEVER win!!!
I went into a hospital, and 3 days later they called my parents and told them they needed to bring the family in for a counseling session……they all came…..
I decided to turn the tables back on them. You wanta talk about problems, OH WE”LL TALK……and here’s what I wanna talk about……… In the family counseling, in front of my family……the cousnelor asked me what I wanted to discuss…..and I brought up the molestation for 3 years from 9-11 by my brother…..I confronted my brother, in front of all of em……he got angry, my other brother stood up and said, It DID happen, I saw him, and told his story of what he saw. I never knew my brother knew about this….NEVER, I was shocked and relieved to know this and relieved he stood up in my honor.
My parents then said…..when cornered……we are leaving and taking our daughter with us! That was the end of the so called eating disorder… more counselling after that……
Hmmmmmmm. DENIAL!

But he remembered that! And I told him this story…..he was shocked by the ‘real’ story, because my parents have always dogged him and his wife on their parenting…..and have NEVER let on that we were disfunctional. We had the perfect family… problems …..OH EXCEPT FOR EB!
I was the problem child……scapegoat for all!

It all came full circle for him……

I told him my parents dog them, to avoid their own issues….and maintain their perfect profile. It’s all part of their game…..that I CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY ANYMORE!

I reminded him how’helpful’ to everyone sick or dying, my parents are…..he agreed, then I asked him…..WHERE WERE THEY WHEN I WAS SO ILL? I was alone.

The last time I saw him was 3 years ago… my parents 50th anniversary party I PLANNED! I was 2 weeks out of surgery and at my weakest……I had no bubble or spark to me, NONE! and all my parents friends were shocked and concerned at my condition. I sat on a bench the whole event, because I couldn’t walk well, I was wiped out on ALL levels. I couldn’t eat, couldn’t dance, couldn’t socialize…..nothing…..NOT the EB they’ve known my whole life.
He said, when my parents told them I was faking it all……he responded to my parents that just couldn’t be. EB was NOT WELL, and it wasn’t on a mental level. He saw it for his own eyes.
My parents shook their head and said to him, she’s good.

I told him that I have some very good childhood memories and I have done the same for my children…..My memories are NOT all bad.
When Jr said he had a sucky childhood, I reminded him gently of all the fun times we’ve had……without spath. Please don’t forget the good… there were LOT”S of good.
It’s too easy to say all or nothing…..but it’s just not true in our case…..mine OR my kids.

Still not enough to ‘go back’ now.
It’s done……
I told him my parents are in such denial, they’d have to have a come to jesus moment……and I’d have to be convinced of it.
I was always there for my parents, always good to them…….and I didn’t deserve to be betrayed or punished by them. Participating in my childrens kidnapping with spath, leaving me alone in my physical health, speaking so poorly of me to my children…telling them EB’s an alcoholic and a pill popper…..her slurred speach wasn’t a stroke….it was pills and alcohol and mentall illness?????
My kids said they asked them, well don’t ya have to drink to be an alcoholic? My parents drink like fish! NIGHTLY, have my whole life!!! they get hammered… keep up with their denial!
This man said, EB, I’ve NEVER known you to be a drinker??? I said, yeah……NO ONE HAS!!! I’t’s not my MO, never has been…..I prefer throwing up food!!!! 🙂 (Joke!)
Pills are also not my thing! I do like shoes, and maybe have too many… there a catagory for shoaholic?

So…..this conversation was very respectful, very honest and for me…..VERY FREEING! It was the conversation/explatnation of my life I’d love to have (but never will have the opportunity) to have with my parents.
They’d argue with my memories and feelings the whole time.

It was cool to hear his understanding……and he thanked me for our conversation and said he was sorry for how things turned out, and PLEASE stay safe… life isn’t supposed to be terrifying!
I told him, if spath is successful at killing us… least he’s clear on what REALLY went on the 43 years i’ve known him! And how it turned out- and where to look first!

I’m glad I had the chance to speak to him……it felt good!!!
I’m glad I didn’t do it any sooner though!
Everything happens for a reason…….


Eb – that was one hell of a conversation; so much sadness, pain, betrayal, denial and bewilderment, so many lies…

you folks sound spathy. and your brother?

I hope you are still in touch with your other borther – that he is a good guy in other ways, too.

I am very interested in this dynamic of scapegoating and how it fits into the game plans of dysfunctional systems – the systems that need it the most to maintain their facade and status quo.

EB, you were an intelligent ballsy kid. You are an intelligent ballsy woman. Plants sprout from seeds. I hope this fellow can be 100% trusted. Reading the end of your post once again put these experiences into perspective for me – NO ONE should have to live this way.

Did you ever see the movie Blue Velvet with Dennis Hopper (at HIS creepiest and spathiest) and Isabella Rosallini? It’s a David Lynch movie and is about the crime underworld leaking out in suburbia. I have never seen a movie that freaked me out as much – and it’s what we live with these assholes.

People may think that you knew or were part of his drug dealing – but all you can do is hold your head up, and remember the truth of it. (and maybe start wearing a t shirt that says, ‘just say no’. ;)) the people who really matter will come to know the truth in time. Like this fellow.



Wow! You are the one in your family of origin who stands for truth, still standing up for it today. There are people who want to stay and/or live in denial, never doing what needs to be done (the grunt work) to better themselves internally, not wanting too badly enough. You’re a different caliber of person than your folks, not being on the same wave length as them. They are concerned about keeping up appearances. That’s a lot of people, I suppose.

Ox Drover


A MOST POWERFUL POST, and some aspects of your story I had heard and forgotten, but also ones that I hadn’t read before. The only thing I can say is that the adversities you endured as a child living in that nest of vipers has made you the strong woman you are today!

Your story to the old man makes me understand why you don’t like to be on the “defensive” end of things. Me neither, makes me want to go on the OFFENSIVE on some things, but can’t always do it that way and stay on the right side of the law.

Are things heating up from your X being angry with you? Make sure you are properly dressed at ALL times, you sure don’t need to be looking for a COAT if you need one, or you might freeze to death before you found it.

The conversation with the old gentleman also sounds like it was very validating to you as well. That in itself is worth a pot of gold I think. It is amazing how much he SAW and tolerated from your parents and still remained “friends” with them.

One-stepper, the term scapegoating comes from the Jewish practices of yearly taking a sacrificial goat and NOT killing it, but symbolically putting all the sins of the nation and people on its head and sending it out into the desert alone (presumably to die). So the term also came to mean the person who assumes the guilt of a family or any group of people.

In FAMILY ROLE THEORY the term scape goat is the term used for designating the family trouble maker. “The family would be fine it wasn’t for EB, she always makes the problems” (like accusing her brother of molesting her) The brother who molested her would be called “the Golden child” as he never did any wrong, or if he was accused of wrong it was the “scape goat”s” fault.

The odd thing is if a scape goat child who is living up to their name and doing bad things “reforms” then many times another child will pick up the role. Or if the Golden child dies or leaves home, sometimes the scape goat will reformm and pick up that role.

My egg donor’s brother played both roles in their family. He was the scape goat (bad boy from an early age) but he was ALSO the “golden child” who could do no wrong because he was the ONLY male child. So no matter what he did bad, he was still the preferred child because he was male.

Egg donor on the other hand was the DO EVERYTHING RIGHT child but never managed to reach the status of “golden child” because she was female.

My Grandmother was the family enabler, make excuses for everyone, keep the family secrets, never speak ill of anyone no matter what they did, never confront anyone’s bad behavior.

My Grandfather was the keeper of the family rules, but my GM kept him from confronting (his son) about their bad behavior, partly by keeping secrets.

I came along as the first grandchild (and though even a female child) instantly became the “bell sheep” (Golden Child) in my grandparents eyes—so guess what? Egg Donor was jealous of me for taking away her parents’ attention, just like her brother Uncle Monster had been jealous of her as a baby for taking away (he thought) his parents attention. ONly difference, she didn’t try to physically strangle me.

Read up on Family Role Theory, there’s some interesting stuff there…and people do change from role to role. I tis sort of like a PLAY and has different parts to play and if there aren’t enough people involved then some people will play dual roles or change from role A to Role B if someone dies or moves away from the family. Got to keep the family dynamics stable.

That’s why EB’s family and mine vilify us for going NC, we have resigned from the PLAY and so they have to use that as ammo against us.

From the way you have described your family, One-step, I think there is most likely a bunch of this kind of dynamics going on with your family as well, might be interesting for you to look at.


Hi Oxy – I know the origins of the practice (and am going to be studying it with a Rabbi). It’s it role within systems with a disordered person- a spath or n – in it that interests me; and how we change being targeted.

I have looked at triangulation and karpman theory for years. My family is rife with this dynamic.

the scapegoating shifts depending on ‘who’s in the room’. My sis is ‘the crazy one’, and I was always the ‘sensitive’ one. Sis was nasty and I wasn’t, even though i acted out a lot to numb and escape (drugs and flight). We were both scapegoated – eventually her for speaking the unspeakable (aka crazy), and me from an early age for trying to escape ( aka troubled) a family where awareness about emotions and how to deal with them was a verboten subject.

I have been the goat quite a few times in my life. as I come to understand the dynamic more, i am able to go on the offensive, and bring people in from outside systems to comment on them and change the dynamic within organizations; and to stand up for myself and say ‘no’ within personal relationships. I have done this with my friends who ran away also…I refused to be the ‘problem’ because of what has happened to me. All relationships are dynamics. I have a lot of learning to do and choices to make, with every one of them.

it will be really interesting to see what happens when i sue my father. that’s an enormous shift, and i know that i am still trembling at the idea of the foundations of the world shaking – but i know that, and i can work with it. it’s huge training that i will have to break. haven’t read specifically about family role theory, but more study in this area will help. thanks oxy.

Ox Drover

Dear One-step,

Yea, it is kind of shocking to me to look back and see the GENERATIONAL roles that through at least four generations, now five, that my family has gone through that I actually could recall the people and the STORIES about the other generations back before them. How the “family bad boy” and the “family peacemaker” roles were handed down from generation to generation. My Great grandmother on my egg donor’s side was married to a monster alcoholic asshole, and she was the peace maker, her youngest son was the family bad boy, but got paralyzed in WWII and had to “reform” because he was a “pity case” paralyzed from the neck down. The family along with hired caregivers took care of him until he died at age 65. I remember him well and spent lots of time with him. I only remember g-grandpa being a quiet old man, if I ever heard him talk I don’t remember it, I was 5-6 when he died, but I remember the whiskey bottles and being told not too talk about them.

Years later after I was over 40 my grandmother’s brother’s widow told me what an asshole great grandpa had been, and I heard the stories about him being the town drunk and passing out, or racing his horse hooked to a buggy until it fell over dead, yet OUR family never ciriticized grandpa for his behavior, but they did criticize others in the community who acted that way. LOL I guess they figured no one would NOTICE. LOL

As I studied family history and genealogy I found where this same line back behind g-grandpa’s went back to a man born in 1800, murdered in 1860, who was a wife beating, hard drinking arsehole who actually tied a slave woman up by her toes to whip her, and I found all kinds of nasty law suits still in the records from the 1840s. Direct line of drunks and abusers straight down to Uncle Monster, my egg donor’s brother who kept up the “family tradition” by drinking and abusing women. Only Unk started at age 7 by trying to smother his infant sister.

Yea, really makes me proud to be from that family!

In the “family role” theory studies I have done so far it is amazing how a child is ASSIGNED into that role and the entire family does their best to keep them in “their place” and if a role is about to change, like my egg donor was anticipating her own death, so started trying to mold me into her role of “family peace keeper—AT ANY PRICE” but because I REFUSED to assume this role, refused to occupy my assigned seat, she started to push my DIL into that seat even though she DETESTED my DIL, all of a sudden my DIL became so “sweet” LOL

DIL started to get into the role too because she saw $$$$, and she joined my egg donor’s church, even the Trojan Horse joined the church! LOL ROTFLMAO I couldn’t believe how egg donor was SO PLEASED LOL ROTFLMAO she had “saved their souls!”

There are a lot of different dynamics we can look at and each of them will have some validity, but I think it takes several ways of looking at all this to get the entire picture of what is going on.

Once we see what is going on, it helps us to OPT OUT of the “games people play” rather than being authentic human beings.

Of course different groups form and dissolve and then new groups form, sort of like schools of fish passing closely, and groups within groups, so our learning and watching the dynamics never stops. I’m still just trying to keep the status quo as much as possible because I know that I’m still TIRED from all the continual jockeying for survival for so long, that now I am just resting and regrouping, healing and recovering strength and looking after myself first of all.

In the world of my egg donor she may consider me her scape goat, but I’m not IN her “world” any more. As long as I stay out of her world, I am not available to be injured by what she thinks about me or what she says because it might as well be going on in the southern hemisphere, as far from me as it can get. It can’t touch me. That is why NC is sooooooo important I think.


.as life isn’t supposed to be terrifying!

What a realization that becomes!

I see it. I hear it. I live it.

I have friends who speak with those same gentle voices. They stun me that their experiences were not the same as mine. And reflect back that so much has been so awful.

The first steps of freedom are rugged. I don’t know what is true for other people. But letting go of spending a lifetime on defense, is not small.

One, the research you are doing is profound. EB you are formidable and OX, you are right, it is traceable.

NC puts it all in another hemisphere, Recognition makes us aware of what the difference is. Understanding helps us to become.

Together here is a FAMILY that holds to account the healthy and real postures to the world and finds humor and understanding of that past which is gone, better understood and walled off by what we now know.

It is an amazing process. Absolutely amazing to see so many stories that begin with a Spath episode and drill back to family distortions. Over and over again.

Keep the don’t tread on me flag aloft and understand the simple, elegant solution NC gives.

On we go…..

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