Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following e-mail from a reader whom we’ll call “Veronica.” She fears for her granddaughter’s life, and it appears that she has reason to.
I’m desperate and very afraid. I hope you can help and help quickly.
My daughter was married to a man, who by all accounts, appeared to be the most wonderful guy in the world. It wasn’t until after she left him that she finally confided in me as to the truth of their relationship and I was horrified. I know he is definitely a sociopath.
For 5 years he made her life a living hell. The only reason she stayed with him she said was because it was the only way to protect her daughter. She left him over a year ago, and filed for divorce in May of this year. She was also given an order of protection (which he has violated numerous times), as he threatened my daughter and told her he was going to take my grandchild out of the country. We even showed the judge a video this man had made using his cell phone of himself badgering and pushing my granddaughter when she was only 18 months old. He cried when he saw the video. He told the judge my daughter made him do that. He said that’s the method they were using to potty train her. I sat there stunned when he said that, but I thought the judge would see through such an obvious lie! They lived with me during that time, and none of that happened. My daughter asked the judge to let me testify and he said no.
In the end, the judge saw in him a loving father and would not give her sole custody without any contact with the father. This has proven to be a grievous mistake on the judge’s part.
Injuries and threats
Twice we have had to call the police because my 4-year-old granddaughter came home injured. The first time he kicked her. They took pictures, they talked to him and of course he said he had no idea how it happened. Then he started sneaking into my daughter’s yard at night. Parking two doors down at the abandoned house. Each time we tried to get a picture, all we got was his back or a blur as he ran away. The police said that proves nothing. I’ve seen him several drive real slow in front of my daughter’s house with the dome light on, giving us the finger or a sinister smile. He’s gone by the time the police get there. He drives different cars, a black 4 door sedan, a tan Camry, a red Aveo and a dark small truck.
On the 3rd of October he had visitation. When my daughter when to pick up my grandchild, my grandchild ran away and said she didn’t want to go with my daughter. “Daddy” picked her up and put her in my daughter’s car. When they were on the way home, my daughter asked my granddaughter why she acted that way and was told “daddy said if I didn’t do that he wouldn’t play with me anymore, but if I did, he would play with me every day.” My daughter called me and told me about the incident. Unfortunately, I got mad and called him. I asked him to stop using her as a pawn. Naturally he denied it. “I would never do that.” He kept yelling so I hung up. He called back and started yelling again. I said “Look, I just called to ask you to stop playing these games with her.” He said “You think this is a game?! I will show you the kinds of games I can play and you won’t survive.” He yelled, “Leave me alone” and hung up.
A few minutes later he sent me a text message. “You guys need to tell her if she continues to say things that aren’t true she’s gonna get in trouble. And apparently you need to think REALLY hard before you open your mouth about anything.” I know from past experience that was a threat to me and my grandchild. As it was a Sunday, I went early the next morning to court to get a protection order for myself. It was granted. However, it took almost 3 weeks to serve it as he kept avoiding the Constable.
Cigarette burn
On the 16th of October he again had visitation. When my daughter picked up my granddaughter in the evening and got her home, it was about bed time. As my daughter was helping her get her pajamas on, she saw blood and a sore in the middle of her back slightly larger than the diameter of a pencil. She asked how it happened.
“Daddy poked me.”
“Why did daddy poke you?”
“I don’t know, he said it was fair, but it wasn’t.”
“Why did daddy say it was fair?”
“I think he thought I poked him, but I didn’t. I kissed him on the cheek.”
“What were you doing when daddy poked you?”
“I was rolling the ball to (her half-sister).”
“Show me how daddy poked you”
She got up and took her index finger and poked my daughter as hard as she could in the back and moved her finger in a manner like you’d use to crush out a cigarette.
I was in the room and looked at the injury. Something didn’t look right so I went and got a magnifying glass. I said, this doesn’t look like a “poke” this looks like a burn. Because the local police had told us before not to call them, but to contact the police in the city where the incident occurred, we bundled her up and drove to my house and called the police from there. They came out and talked to all three of us. My granddaughter again showed the policeman how the injury occurred and they took pictures.
Two weeks later the detectives finally called him in for questioning. But naturally, he was shocked, he cried, he demanded to know who did it. He even brought in his other two daughters who said they had no idea she had been hurt. Even though my granddaughter had told the officers her older sister had kissed the owie to try to make her feel better. Obviously, he’s threatening her half sisters, too. The detective knew it was a cigarette burn, but here is what appears to be a loving father, so they let him go.
“Make us disappear”
Saturday, October 30th he saw my grandchild again. When she came home she told my mom and my daughter, “Daddy said if I tell the truth, he will kill us all and make us disappear.” We have no idea what to do. The police are starting to think we’re the crazy ones, so we didn’t call to report it.
Last night I got an urgent call from my daughter at 11:30 pm. She said he had been there messing with the outside electrical main box. She said first the back yard light went off, then came on, then various house lights went off and back on. She ran to the back of the house to look through the window at the junction box, but all she saw was him running away.
I went over and we looked at the box. It was obvious it had been opened. We got a padlock and locked it up, then spent most of the night awake with fear. The dogs went wild with barking at 2:30 in the morning. We couldn’t see anything outside, though. We have no idea what he has in mind, but we do believe he is planning to make good on his threat to make us disappear.
My daughter says she regrets divorcing him because now she can’t ensure my granddaughter’s safety. She said she would gladly put up with the abuse if it meant she could be sure her daughter was safe. I told her there would have come a time when not even living with the man would guarantee the safety of my grandchild. No one is safe from a sociopath, and I know it’s the hardest illness in the world to prove.
We don’t have money for security cameras or even a video camera. My mom who lives with my daughter is on Social Security, my daughter has been looking for work for a year and all she’s been able to do is sell cosmetics, and I don’t make enough to provide much support to them. We’re living in fear every day. After last night I don’t feel safe going home, as I live alone. There doesn’t seem to be any way to stop him and nobody is listening to us. Please, if you can help us. Tell us what to do now. We are all out of ideas and he’s got visitation again on November 12th. I fear most for my granddaughter’s life.
*That wonderful Someone*
In this troubled world it’s refreshing to find
Someone who still has the time to be kind,
Someone who still has faith to believe
That the more you give the more you receive,
Someone who’s ready by thought, word or deed,
To reach out a hand in an hour o need.
-Helen Steiner Rice
This was on the back of the above page in GGmas bible.
This so describes all the giving and warm people here at LF!
XXOO
EB
thats ok miss erin both post are great…
EB, those are both really good.
The one about children is so true…
“Will linger unchangeabley there.”
That’s been the hard part to change,
the little girl inside!
I had an interesting conversation with a friend of my parents the other night. I’ve known him my life, and he knew the spath. Funny thing is, his daughter ‘went’ after the spath when I was a teenager…..and I fought for the fucker!
I knew the ‘stories’ he had been told, and he was very interested in speaking with me, he had lot’s of questions.
He’s got a daughter (same one) marired/separated to a spath, he’s Armenian or Turkish, (CRS). But since the day I met her wasband, he creeped me out.
The stories through the grapevine for years have not been good about their marriage. Total spathy.
He and I spoke about Cluster B’s.
He ‘got it’……because I related it to his SIL.
He said he ALWAYS knew spath was a drug dealer……WTF? An 80 year old man….knew…..and I , who lived with the fucker didnt’? He said everyone knew.
I HATE this, and how it devalues me and my hard work building the business and ‘climbing’ the ladder of success……everyone thinks I got ‘here’ from drug money…..
He said one time he asked my parents, when we were separated…….Where spath get’s his money…..and my parents response was……It’s none of our business. WTF? None of our business…….??????
DENIAL! he told them he thought it was drugs……they changed the subject to HIS kids.
We spoke for about 3 hours…..I told him everything…..he thanked me for being so open and informative as it cleared up questions that never made sense to he and his wife, being so close to my parents, and hearing their stories.
He asked me if there was any hope for reconciliation with my parents…..and I explained the danger and betrayal they caused by their ‘relationshit’ with the spath…..and I had NO trust for them, hence I must stay away for our safety.
I told him i’ve worked hard at ‘cleaning’ house of anyone I can’t trust, relationships that are one way and such…..and unfortunately, for our safety…….my parents fell under that catagory.
I never envisioned it this way……EVER!
But I oopened my eyes.
He said, my parents wear rose colored glasses. I said, YA THINK!?!
I explained to him ‘recent’ events of harassment and stalking and it continues to this day…….
He understood my needs, as unfortunate as they are.
He said he didn’t understand ‘why’ they did what they did…across the board….treated me the way they did when so very sick…..and spath contact…….and not coming to my support. Divorce OR illness.
His daughter (bad marriage) was recently diagnosed with cancer….and they wouldn’t think of not being there for her and the g. kids. As her spath didn’t even notice she was gone for her surgery and hospital stay.
We spoke about my childhood, my molestation, of which he wasn’t aware of……but made sense as he has always known My dislike for the creepy brother.
His son was actually the one I publically humiliated my brother in front of when I was 11. I called my brother repeatedly a Really UGLY name……so ugly and embarrasing, so others would ask me why I called him that. His son asked why I called him that, and in front of my brother I said……why don’t you ask him! The molestation STOPPED! (knowing now, I publically used his fear of exposure) It worked! I figured this out when I was in a desperit situation as a KID….and my parents denied it when I went to mother for help and told her. She told me if I coulnd’t say the word “vagina’…..it obviously didn’t happen then. She pushed it right back on me.
So…….I knew I HAD to make it stop……looking back, it amazes me I figured this out at such a young age. (GO EB!)
He also remembered, and brought up when my parents put my in hospital for ‘bulimia’. I laughed and said, I MUST tell you how that relates to my ‘today’ and what ‘REALLY happened!
It was a spath set up……it was the ‘same’ situation, different context, as this last accused, ‘mentally ill’ round he put me through, faking cancer/stokes.
He used my parents then, as he did this time. (I did have fair warning…… back then)
I told him…..back then I spent my whole life on the defensive….jsut to prove to people I wasn’t ——— (fill in the blank) whatever was the accusation dujour.
I went along with what they asked to ‘get me help’, but NEVER agreed I was bulimic, because I wasn’t! That was absurd to me. I went along to prove to them it wasn’t true.
NOW I know to never go on defensive, you’ll NEVER win!!!
I went into a hospital, and 3 days later they called my parents and told them they needed to bring the family in for a counseling session……they all came…..
I decided to turn the tables back on them. You wanta talk about problems, OH WE”LL TALK……and here’s what I wanna talk about……… In the family counseling, in front of my family……the cousnelor asked me what I wanted to discuss…..and I brought up the molestation for 3 years from 9-11 by my brother…..I confronted my brother, in front of all of em……he got angry, my other brother stood up and said, It DID happen, I saw him, and told his story of what he saw. I never knew my brother knew about this….NEVER, I was shocked and relieved to know this and relieved he stood up in my honor.
My parents then said…..when cornered……we are leaving and taking our daughter with us! That was the end of the so called eating disorder…..no more counselling after that……
Hmmmmmmm. DENIAL!
But he remembered that! And I told him this story…..he was shocked by the ‘real’ story, because my parents have always dogged him and his wife on their parenting…..and have NEVER let on that we were disfunctional. We had the perfect family…..no problems …..OH EXCEPT FOR EB!
I was the problem child……scapegoat for all!
It all came full circle for him……
I told him my parents dog them, to avoid their own issues….and maintain their perfect profile. It’s all part of their game…..that I CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY ANYMORE!
I reminded him how’helpful’ to everyone sick or dying, my parents are…..he agreed, then I asked him…..WHERE WERE THEY WHEN I WAS SO ILL? I was alone.
The last time I saw him was 3 years ago…..at my parents 50th anniversary party I PLANNED! I was 2 weeks out of surgery and at my weakest……I had no bubble or spark to me, NONE! and all my parents friends were shocked and concerned at my condition. I sat on a bench the whole event, because I couldn’t walk well, I was wiped out on ALL levels. I couldn’t eat, couldn’t dance, couldn’t socialize…..nothing…..NOT the EB they’ve known my whole life.
He said, when my parents told them I was faking it all……he responded to my parents that just couldn’t be. EB was NOT WELL, and it wasn’t on a mental level. He saw it for his own eyes.
My parents shook their head and said to him, she’s good.
SHE”S GOOD??????? FUCK OFF!
I told him that I have some very good childhood memories and I have done the same for my children…..My memories are NOT all bad.
When Jr said he had a sucky childhood, I reminded him gently of all the fun times we’ve had……without spath. Please don’t forget the good…..as there were LOT”S of good.
It’s too easy to say all or nothing…..but it’s just not true in our case…..mine OR my kids.
Still not enough to ‘go back’ now.
It’s done……
I told him my parents are in such denial, they’d have to have a come to jesus moment……and I’d have to be convinced of it.
I was always there for my parents, always good to them…….and I didn’t deserve to be betrayed or punished by them. Participating in my childrens kidnapping with spath, leaving me alone in my physical health, speaking so poorly of me to my children…telling them EB’s an alcoholic and a pill popper…..her slurred speach wasn’t a stroke….it was pills and alcohol and mentall illness?????
My kids said they asked them, well don’t ya have to drink to be an alcoholic? My parents drink like fish! NIGHTLY, have my whole life!!! they get hammered…..to keep up with their denial!
This man said, EB, I’ve NEVER known you to be a drinker??? I said, yeah……NO ONE HAS!!! I’t’s not my MO, never has been…..I prefer throwing up food!!!! 🙂 (Joke!)
Pills are also not my thing! I do like shoes, and maybe have too many…..is there a catagory for shoaholic?
So…..this conversation was very respectful, very honest and for me…..VERY FREEING! It was the conversation/explatnation of my life I’d love to have (but never will have the opportunity) to have with my parents.
They’d argue with my memories and feelings the whole time.
It was cool to hear his understanding……and he thanked me for our conversation and said he was sorry for how things turned out, and PLEASE stay safe…..as life isn’t supposed to be terrifying!
I told him, if spath is successful at killing us…..at least he’s clear on what REALLY went on the 43 years i’ve known him! And how it turned out- and where to look first!
I’m glad I had the chance to speak to him……it felt good!!!
I’m glad I didn’t do it any sooner though!
Everything happens for a reason…….
Eb – that was one hell of a conversation; so much sadness, pain, betrayal, denial and bewilderment, so many lies…
you folks sound spathy. and your brother?
I hope you are still in touch with your other borther – that he is a good guy in other ways, too.
I am very interested in this dynamic of scapegoating and how it fits into the game plans of dysfunctional systems – the systems that need it the most to maintain their facade and status quo.
EB, you were an intelligent ballsy kid. You are an intelligent ballsy woman. Plants sprout from seeds. I hope this fellow can be 100% trusted. Reading the end of your post once again put these experiences into perspective for me – NO ONE should have to live this way.
Did you ever see the movie Blue Velvet with Dennis Hopper (at HIS creepiest and spathiest) and Isabella Rosallini? It’s a David Lynch movie and is about the crime underworld leaking out in suburbia. I have never seen a movie that freaked me out as much – and it’s what we live with these assholes.
People may think that you knew or were part of his drug dealing – but all you can do is hold your head up, and remember the truth of it. (and maybe start wearing a t shirt that says, ‘just say no’. ;)) the people who really matter will come to know the truth in time. Like this fellow.
ErinBrock,
Wow! You are the one in your family of origin who stands for truth, still standing up for it today. There are people who want to stay and/or live in denial, never doing what needs to be done (the grunt work) to better themselves internally, not wanting too badly enough. You’re a different caliber of person than your folks, not being on the same wave length as them. They are concerned about keeping up appearances. That’s a lot of people, I suppose.
EB,
A MOST POWERFUL POST, and some aspects of your story I had heard and forgotten, but also ones that I hadn’t read before. The only thing I can say is that the adversities you endured as a child living in that nest of vipers has made you the strong woman you are today!
Your story to the old man makes me understand why you don’t like to be on the “defensive” end of things. Me neither, makes me want to go on the OFFENSIVE on some things, but can’t always do it that way and stay on the right side of the law.
Are things heating up from your X being angry with you? Make sure you are properly dressed at ALL times, you sure don’t need to be looking for a COAT if you need one, or you might freeze to death before you found it.
The conversation with the old gentleman also sounds like it was very validating to you as well. That in itself is worth a pot of gold I think. It is amazing how much he SAW and tolerated from your parents and still remained “friends” with them.
One-stepper, the term scapegoating comes from the Jewish practices of yearly taking a sacrificial goat and NOT killing it, but symbolically putting all the sins of the nation and people on its head and sending it out into the desert alone (presumably to die). So the term also came to mean the person who assumes the guilt of a family or any group of people.
In FAMILY ROLE THEORY the term scape goat is the term used for designating the family trouble maker. “The family would be fine it wasn’t for EB, she always makes the problems” (like accusing her brother of molesting her) The brother who molested her would be called “the Golden child” as he never did any wrong, or if he was accused of wrong it was the “scape goat”s” fault.
The odd thing is if a scape goat child who is living up to their name and doing bad things “reforms” then many times another child will pick up the role. Or if the Golden child dies or leaves home, sometimes the scape goat will reformm and pick up that role.
My egg donor’s brother played both roles in their family. He was the scape goat (bad boy from an early age) but he was ALSO the “golden child” who could do no wrong because he was the ONLY male child. So no matter what he did bad, he was still the preferred child because he was male.
Egg donor on the other hand was the DO EVERYTHING RIGHT child but never managed to reach the status of “golden child” because she was female.
My Grandmother was the family enabler, make excuses for everyone, keep the family secrets, never speak ill of anyone no matter what they did, never confront anyone’s bad behavior.
My Grandfather was the keeper of the family rules, but my GM kept him from confronting (his son) about their bad behavior, partly by keeping secrets.
I came along as the first grandchild (and though even a female child) instantly became the “bell sheep” (Golden Child) in my grandparents eyes—so guess what? Egg Donor was jealous of me for taking away her parents’ attention, just like her brother Uncle Monster had been jealous of her as a baby for taking away (he thought) his parents attention. ONly difference, she didn’t try to physically strangle me.
Read up on Family Role Theory, there’s some interesting stuff there…and people do change from role to role. I tis sort of like a PLAY and has different parts to play and if there aren’t enough people involved then some people will play dual roles or change from role A to Role B if someone dies or moves away from the family. Got to keep the family dynamics stable.
That’s why EB’s family and mine vilify us for going NC, we have resigned from the PLAY and so they have to use that as ammo against us.
From the way you have described your family, One-step, I think there is most likely a bunch of this kind of dynamics going on with your family as well, might be interesting for you to look at.
Hi Oxy – I know the origins of the practice (and am going to be studying it with a Rabbi). It’s it role within systems with a disordered person- a spath or n – in it that interests me; and how we change being targeted.
I have looked at triangulation and karpman theory for years. My family is rife with this dynamic.
the scapegoating shifts depending on ‘who’s in the room’. My sis is ‘the crazy one’, and I was always the ‘sensitive’ one. Sis was nasty and I wasn’t, even though i acted out a lot to numb and escape (drugs and flight). We were both scapegoated – eventually her for speaking the unspeakable (aka crazy), and me from an early age for trying to escape ( aka troubled) a family where awareness about emotions and how to deal with them was a verboten subject.
I have been the goat quite a few times in my life. as I come to understand the dynamic more, i am able to go on the offensive, and bring people in from outside systems to comment on them and change the dynamic within organizations; and to stand up for myself and say ‘no’ within personal relationships. I have done this with my friends who ran away also…I refused to be the ‘problem’ because of what has happened to me. All relationships are dynamics. I have a lot of learning to do and choices to make, with every one of them.
it will be really interesting to see what happens when i sue my father. that’s an enormous shift, and i know that i am still trembling at the idea of the foundations of the world shaking – but i know that, and i can work with it. it’s huge training that i will have to break. haven’t read specifically about family role theory, but more study in this area will help. thanks oxy.
Dear One-step,
Yea, it is kind of shocking to me to look back and see the GENERATIONAL roles that through at least four generations, now five, that my family has gone through that I actually could recall the people and the STORIES about the other generations back before them. How the “family bad boy” and the “family peacemaker” roles were handed down from generation to generation. My Great grandmother on my egg donor’s side was married to a monster alcoholic asshole, and she was the peace maker, her youngest son was the family bad boy, but got paralyzed in WWII and had to “reform” because he was a “pity case” paralyzed from the neck down. The family along with hired caregivers took care of him until he died at age 65. I remember him well and spent lots of time with him. I only remember g-grandpa being a quiet old man, if I ever heard him talk I don’t remember it, I was 5-6 when he died, but I remember the whiskey bottles and being told not too talk about them.
Years later after I was over 40 my grandmother’s brother’s widow told me what an asshole great grandpa had been, and I heard the stories about him being the town drunk and passing out, or racing his horse hooked to a buggy until it fell over dead, yet OUR family never ciriticized grandpa for his behavior, but they did criticize others in the community who acted that way. LOL I guess they figured no one would NOTICE. LOL
As I studied family history and genealogy I found where this same line back behind g-grandpa’s went back to a man born in 1800, murdered in 1860, who was a wife beating, hard drinking arsehole who actually tied a slave woman up by her toes to whip her, and I found all kinds of nasty law suits still in the records from the 1840s. Direct line of drunks and abusers straight down to Uncle Monster, my egg donor’s brother who kept up the “family tradition” by drinking and abusing women. Only Unk started at age 7 by trying to smother his infant sister.
Yea, really makes me proud to be from that family!
In the “family role” theory studies I have done so far it is amazing how a child is ASSIGNED into that role and the entire family does their best to keep them in “their place” and if a role is about to change, like my egg donor was anticipating her own death, so started trying to mold me into her role of “family peace keeper—AT ANY PRICE” but because I REFUSED to assume this role, refused to occupy my assigned seat, she started to push my DIL into that seat even though she DETESTED my DIL, all of a sudden my DIL became so “sweet” LOL
DIL started to get into the role too because she saw $$$$, and she joined my egg donor’s church, even the Trojan Horse joined the church! LOL ROTFLMAO I couldn’t believe how egg donor was SO PLEASED LOL ROTFLMAO she had “saved their souls!”
There are a lot of different dynamics we can look at and each of them will have some validity, but I think it takes several ways of looking at all this to get the entire picture of what is going on.
Once we see what is going on, it helps us to OPT OUT of the “games people play” rather than being authentic human beings.
Of course different groups form and dissolve and then new groups form, sort of like schools of fish passing closely, and groups within groups, so our learning and watching the dynamics never stops. I’m still just trying to keep the status quo as much as possible because I know that I’m still TIRED from all the continual jockeying for survival for so long, that now I am just resting and regrouping, healing and recovering strength and looking after myself first of all.
In the world of my egg donor she may consider me her scape goat, but I’m not IN her “world” any more. As long as I stay out of her world, I am not available to be injured by what she thinks about me or what she says because it might as well be going on in the southern hemisphere, as far from me as it can get. It can’t touch me. That is why NC is sooooooo important I think.
.as life isn’t supposed to be terrifying!
What a realization that becomes!
I see it. I hear it. I live it.
I have friends who speak with those same gentle voices. They stun me that their experiences were not the same as mine. And reflect back that so much has been so awful.
The first steps of freedom are rugged. I don’t know what is true for other people. But letting go of spending a lifetime on defense, is not small.
One, the research you are doing is profound. EB you are formidable and OX, you are right, it is traceable.
NC puts it all in another hemisphere, Recognition makes us aware of what the difference is. Understanding helps us to become.
Together here is a FAMILY that holds to account the healthy and real postures to the world and finds humor and understanding of that past which is gone, better understood and walled off by what we now know.
It is an amazing process. Absolutely amazing to see so many stories that begin with a Spath episode and drill back to family distortions. Over and over again.
Keep the don’t tread on me flag aloft and understand the simple, elegant solution NC gives.
On we go…..