By | March 16, 2012 92 Comments

LETTER TO LOVEFRAUD: She was deceiving both of us and living a double life

Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following email from a man whom we’ll call “Roger.”

First off this is a man’s story and I hope it will help other men who have had to deal with sociopathic women. No offense women but most stories here are written by women!

So I met my X-fiancee about 3 years at a job function. She was beautiful, sweet, caring, attractive”¦just seemed like an extremely “genuine” person at the time. We would constantly email each other all day and the more we conversed, the more I was realizing how similar we both were in every way. We were both divorced, had no kids, same aspirations in terms of careers, liked the same activities, food, travel etc.

Well I tried taking her out several times and on several occasions, I was either shot down or got a last minute phone call with a last minute almost “cliché” like-excuse, “I have to help a friend,” etc. You know when your being sold out. We hung out a few times, but since I wasn’t getting her to reciprocate any type of affection towards me, I wound up in a relationship with another very nice girl and she wound up dating other guys.

So we remained great friends and spoke on the phone and text often. She was very easy to talk to and very observant, so I would go to her for relationship issues and I thought her intentions were good! Key word “thought.”

Even though we had a little attraction when we first met, we never dated, kissed, nothing. I noticed she would always throw out little comments like “make sure your using protection with her.” I once confronted her and asked why, why did she care? She told me because if we were to wind up together she wouldn’t want me to give her something.

I have to admit I was comparing my at the time current girlfriend to her constantly, and when she said that it brought back all the feelings that I had for her. So fast forward about a year, I am no longer with my then girlfriend and am taking a 13 hr road trip. Being bored I text her to let her know I was going to be driving for a while. Make a long story short, we texted almost the entire 13 hr trip and the more we spoke the more I realized I was falling for her.


I for the first time told her I wish she was here so I could kiss her and she responded with “me too.” She then told me she always had cared but the timing was never right. Well for the next few days we were hot and heavy texting about passionate romantic endeavors, how great it would be to date as we are almost best friends and get along so well. Well When I got back 4 days later I told her I needed to come see her. I needed to finally kiss her and see her. So I came over late at night at first she seemed a little nervous. But soon were passionately kissing and next thing I know I am throwing her onto her bed. The passion was extremely intense but she withheld from having sex with me.

After that night came the distance, lack of texts, not answering phone calls etc. Granted we weren’t dating, but we were friends for 1-1/2 yrs. We told one another we were going to date, had an extremely passionate night together, and now she has disappeared.

So come March we are hot and heavy texting and talking again, more and more about sex and how she liked the way I touched her. She basically was working me to death. I told her if she wanted to know how sex was to come over and be with me already. So she came over one morning (which was odd), like 7:30 to be exact. Walked in like nothing and we engaged in passionate sex for the first time. After we were done everything seemed fine. We took a shower together.

No response

She left and again no texts, no answering calls for 3 days. I was heartbroken. I tried soo hard to be with this girl and I couldn’t get a read on her. I knew she had been dating a guy on and off for 3 years or so and I asked if it had anything to do with him. She admitted she still talked to him. But the way she said it made it seem like they were just friends at this point.

Well, 3 months after that the texting and calling was on again, this time more than ever. Now I am picking her up from her work for lunch, and to mess around in her car. I couldn’t take it anymore. I told her that if her feelings for me were real, than why are we not dating?? My X wanted me back and I told her this wasn’t going to continue, as my X was a sweet girl with a great future, and I wasn’t going to put my life on hold anymore for a once a week romantic escapade.

Two days later she told me she wanted to come over; she had something to tell me. She came over and told me she called things off with her X and she wanted me! I didn’t understand. She told me they just talked?? She said she had gone to get the remaining items from his house and she told him that they would not see each other anymore at all. She said he didn’t take it well, but I figured so much as she is an extremely attractive woman.

Perfect relationship

So now we began our relationship and things went almost text book perfect. I mean dating a girl that was basically your best friend, knows everything about you including past relationships, no lies—it was great. I was truly in love, and she made sure she told me how much she loved me, and appreciated my love for her and her family. Our families met we travelled and hung out almost every day together!

Several months down the road we found out she was pregnant. We were both extremely happy. She was living with her family at the time so I told her I would get us our own place so we can live together throughout the pregnancy. We moved in together got engaged and were living a beautiful life.

Doesn’t love me

Six weeks ago, when she was 5 months pregnant, she woke up out of the blue and told me straight faced that she didn’t love me and she doesn’t think she ever did!! My heart dropped to the floor. We are having twins, and I thought that maybe the pregnancy has caused her to be hormonal. She is usually tactful with her words and chooses wisely, but she was cold, crass and unsympathetic. I begged her to go to counseling, anything, but to end this, as she is pregnant with my twins.

After about a week of her staying at her girlfriend’s house and hardly any communication, she told me she was ready to talk. She wouldn’t even see me in person so she called. She told me that nothing has changed and that now she is considering moving in with her X-boyfriend!!!??? I was shocked, hurt, appalled just about every emotion went thru my body.

I asked her why would he want to take you in knowing that you’re pregnant with another mans kids? She wouldn’t answer just basically said that he is.

I was devastated. I had thought that maybe she could have left me for another man, but the likelihood of that since she is 5 months pregnant, and showing, is very unlikely.

The other boyfriend

Two weeks later I get a text from the boyfriend asking if we can talk? I knew I was going to have to speak with him since if they do work out, I would have to trust him with my kids. So I called him just to talk about his plans and to know that my kids are in good hands, but he insisted that we talk about my and her past.

He explained that he knew things that I didn’t, and he was sure I knew a lot that he didn’t! I was confused and wasn’t sure if he was trying to hurt me. He then explained to me that he has been with her this whole time!!!! And that he just recently found out about me!

We spoke for 6 hours and figured out that she was deceiving both of us and living a double life. I found out 3 days before she left me she went to see him and told him she was pregnant. He didn’t ask, cause he thought she was only with him and he was excited that he was going to be a dad again. Then as the days went by she told him that she casually dated a guy, used a different name for the guy too! And that they only had sex twice and that the condom broke and they were most likely the other guy’s kids.

Being that this guy was so brainwashed and in love with her at the time, he didn’t care, and tried to look past it and told her that since he had a vasectomy, he understood she wanted kids and he couldn’t give her any. But he then began catching her in other small lies that finally built up to him reaching out to me and us figuring out everything.


We confronted her about everything, down to the details and she admits to everything, but in such calm way it’s hauntingly scary!

After he found out that he had been deceived, he kicked her out and she went to live with her girlfriend. I have now been going to a therapist and they believe she is a sociopath, as do I after doing the countless hours of research on the subject. I mean here is a girl pregnant with twins, living a double life with two men, not going to be able to work in less than 90 days, and she lost everything and she acts as if nothing has happened!

I have poured my eyes out to her asking her if she realizes what she has done to me, my family, our unborn children etc., and she has nothing to say—no remorse, no sympathy, no apologies at all!

I am still going to the OBGYN visits for the babies’ sake, but every time I see her It makes it harder on me, as I still love her. After knowing what she is, and just how far capable she is, I know I could never be with a person like this, but the pain of being in love is not something that goes away overnight!

I have tried to understand what she was going through, but the more I pry into her head the more walls go up. She actually tries to believe a much more diluted version of the truth. Whenever I see her, she acts as if we are just friends now, and as if this happened years ago!!!! This was only 5 weeks ago!

Calm and relaxed

Me and the other guy forced her to take an STD check, which came back all good (thank heaven), and next she will have to take a paternity test once the kids are born. The most chilling parts of all of this Is that she is so calm and relaxed about everything. It almost seems as if this is normal day to day for her.

The point of my story is I never in a million years would have seen this coming. My friends, family everyone is shocked. She was the most loveable, outgoing, sensitive, sweet girl I had ever met, and everyone saw this in her. I have to let go of her, but unfortunately I still have to deal with this person for the sake of my children. I recently learned that her mom has sociopathic behavior, and believe her behavior stems from her mom’s. My only goal is to ensure now that my kids get all the love and support from me!

I don’t know if this story can help anyone, but if it helps just one person reading this, I have done my part!

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The part of this whole disgusting and sad story that more than sticks out at me is the way you describe her calmness, and her having moved on as if this whole thing transpired in another lifetime. When really it was just weeks ago. Diane Downs (spelling?) appeared the same way in interviews after killing her children. Even smiled when she described how much blood there was in the back seat.

I have experienced this too and it was SO shocking. When one day they look at you with the most connected expressions of love, and the next they are strange creatures who look at you with the eyes of a reptile.

Roger, I am sorry about your aching heart and blown mind. This is an awesome place to keep perspective, learn how to handle your self in the face of this challenge, and to heal. I hope you will stick around and let this community provide you support.

I am also really sorry for the babies. Imagine THAT for a mother.

Ox Drover

Welcome to Love Fraud, Roger and I’m sorry you “qualify for our club” but sounds like you sure do in spades!

I see this whole thing as a “meal ticket” episode. She is calm because she has gotten what she wanted and that’s a meal ticket for the next 18 years, a ticket to the “drama rama” as well as she can blow off the lucky “loser” in the paternity test and milk the “winner” like a good Jersey cow for all the cream in his life.


there is a good chance that they are NOT your children.
I hope so. Spaths are never happy with just one or two partners. They will screw anything.

Oxy is right that she probably chose you as a meal ticket for child support, so be VERY alert and make sure she doesn’t work some angle to cheat on that paternity test. My own spath actually befriended all the cops in 2 counties (including the sheriff of one county and the mayor’s middle aged daughter in another) just to make sure that he could use them against me. Never underestimate the spath’s ability to find authority figures that they can suck up to and coerce! It’s mind boggling.

If it turns out that you do have to co-parent with her, do NOT give her any emotions. There is an article in here about Gray Rock and how to use it.



You are in a very difficult emotional situation. All of us here feel for and are through our own unfortunate experiences, uniquely qualified to provide support, some of which may be difficult to hear.

I will go one step further than Skylar and contend that neither you nor her “boyfriend” is the father. She will string both of you for as long as possible.

I would demand an amniosentesis paternity test asap. She won’t agree, but that would be strong indication she knows you are not the father.

When she finally does consent to a paternity test, treat it as a legal matter. As Skylar said, sociopaths cannot be trusted and will go to extraordinay ways to have their way. Get a lawyer and tell the lawyer you want test results that you can trust.

Ox Drover

BBE and Roger, because there is a SMALL chance that an amniosentesis test which is invasive can cause a miscarriage or kill one or both babies they will NOT do one for ONLY paternity reasons. It is only done for medical reasons.

The truth of the matter will come out soon enough under any circumstance and a test made through a legitimate agency can be trusted as there is a chain of custody on the samples.

I would get an attorney NOW though so that he can guide you through the possibilities on custody and child support before it becomes a big issue.


BBE and Roger,
yes, that is what I was alluding to, there’s no reason to believe that she is sticking to just two sex partners. In fact, it’s doubtful. They just don’t do that. Only 2? never.

Oxy, I understand what you mean by the chain of custody, but you can’t put anything past a spath. I mean, from my own experience, you would think that the elected Sheriff in my county would not get involved in a silly domestic “love” triangle situation, just for shits and giggles, right? uh huh. yep. When they came to my house “looking” for me because they thought I was murdered by the spath, they never got a search warrant, never went into the house, never did anything except call me on my phone, leaving messages and trying to get me to call back. WTF? And apparently, they brandished some automatic weapons and pointed them at him, but I’m not sure about that. So my point is, never, ever think any one is above being used by the spath.

Roger, If she suspects that you will have any doubt about paternity, she will put several things/people in motion to derail you from finding out the truth. Right now, the truth is, SHE probably doesn’t know who the father is. Your best bet is to play along, pretend you still want to be with her, pretend you are so excited about the children, pretend, pretend, pretend!

And just a tip about how the spaths lie believably: they believe their own lies. They have vivid imaginations so it’s easy for them. Just try to keep up. Remember, when a spath’s mouth is moving, she’s lying.


Roger, I’m not saying this to hurt you more, God knows, but maybe she WASN’T using a false name for her other two-time romp when she told her ex bf. She is more likely than not having sex with multiple partners, beyond just you two.

These spaths do screw a lot. The dirtbag I endured didn’t discriminate, either, and I did get an STD. This pig said I must have screwed around on him. Oh my Jesus, they will say anything. They will do anything. Don’t put anything past this woman.

I pray you get over your feelings for her. I can see now that I was addicted to the ex spath, but not in love. I say that because I never respected him, never trusted him, and I didn’t even like the bastard. He repulsed me but I was addicted. I could not have truly loved him. I was in love with the thought of being in love with a soulmate. This was all a lie, though. He lied about being my soulmate. That’s what they do best and worst, they lie.

You’ll get to the point sometime in your future with her when you go through the anger phase. This is a very cleansing phase. It will jump start your healing. Embrace the anger, Roger, but don’t let it consume you or it will turn into hate and that will delay your recovery.

Stay on lovefraud. God bless you.


Hi. I’m sorry you are going through all of this. I know how painful it can be.
I’m glad to see more men LF bloggers lately.. It’s a different perspective and eye opener. Welcome!
My input is a little different. Inspire of the shock and pain you still have a few months to cope, think and learn before children that may or may not be yours comes into this world.
I would go nc immediately. Do not go to the appointments with her. She clearly has someone else there who will do it. I’m sorry because I know how much that must hurt.
If she pity ploys you, ect. Remain strong! You do not need tp be cruel. I know it’s easier said than done.
Once your little ones are born get the DNA.. If requested by her or not to clear up any confusion you might have.
The goodness you still see in her does not exist. If the result comes back that you are not the father thank god. If you are the father and are a good man who will be in for some truely painful stuff.
Spend some time right now really thinking things over… It will be more difficult once the kids arrive if you don’t know where you stand.
It’s hard and painful and even if you are not the father it will hurt Luke hell I’m sure.
Keep reading. This is an awesome site.



I do understand the problems with amniocentesis. I would be interested in her reaction, as sociopaths tend to overreact when confronted, particularly when being unmasked. But you are correct, this will all be sorted out in time an Roger does need a good attorney, for a variety of reasons.



The first part of your story is remarkably similar to mine. I need to get ready for a mountain bike ride and will be gone all day, but when I return, I will post more, including why I am now grateful that I chose *not* to take the friends approach, especially after reading the second part of your story.


Roger, thank you for sharing your story, and welcome to this life-saving forum.

There is one good aspect of this whole nasty mess: you are not bound to her by a contract of marraige! If you are not paternally bound to her, RUN LIKE THE WIND, and try to never look back.

Double life – yeah…Being blindsided is such a betrayal of epic proportions.

Brightest blessings, Roger.



There is nothing good about this creature. What you thought was good was a facade. Good does not exist within them. They only mimic the emotion that you and I feel naturally. Please do not forget that for a second no matter what she says or does going forward.

As I’ve said before,psychopaths don’t cheat. They carry on full-blown relationships with more than one person at a time. They always inevitably screw up and get caught, and it always seems like they wanted to get caught or they simply can’t understand what took so long for the people involved to find out…how stupid you must be. I learned with mine that the only time he lifted me up into the clouds was a means of distracting me from what he was deceptively doing behind my back every time he stepped out the door.

You obviously have two choices here if you find out these children are yours.

One, play her at her own game. You cannot, and I mean absolutely cannot, have any emotional attachment to her any longer under any circumstances. She doesn’t need to know that, but YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT. You have to look at her for what she is, a shell of a human being incapable of feeling any type of meaningful emotion. She is devoid of that capability and ALWAYS will be. They don’t change no matter what travesties occur in their lives, no matter what they stand to lose. They do not care. And her pregnancy was nothing but part of her grand scheme to financially profit in some way, whether with you or someone else. She doesn’t want children. She wants money and someone to provide for her. It’s called an entitlement complex.

Your second choice is to walk away completely. That’s obviously a tough one and maybe even an impossible one for you if they’re your children. It would be impossible for me in that case. But you will have the legal system on your side because she will be a horrible mother. You need to document everything and do everything you can to provide proof of her behavior that will clearly be detrimental to these children. It’s a horrible environment that any psychopath provides for a child, so use that to your advantage if you’re prepared to eventually get custody. But it is a shot in the dark, no pun intended, that they’re yours. I’m sure, like all psychopaths, she had multiple partners at the time she was involved with you.

I am so truly sorry for what you have to look forward to no matter what road you choose to venture down, but you have a lot of people here that have been to hell and back and made it out alive. You will, too. Keep your head and take things day by day. If you find out these kids aren’t yours, run for the hills and don’t ever look back. It’s really like saying goodbye to the devil. It’s really very easy once you understand what she’s done up to this point is child’s play compared to what you’d have to look forward to. It just gets worse and worse and worse and worse

Am I right, everyone? Amen.



As I read your story, it is clear that a situation like what you describe could bring any man to his knees.

I am sorry to hear of it.

The children are fortunate that both of you want to know who they belong to.

Fatherhood is an important role in a child’s life.

And fathers are finding their way more and more to better rights when it comes to situations like this. I am sure you will find those support groups and resources on the web. They are out there.

And you may find you are not alone.

You are not alone in this company who all share they experience with s’s or p’s. Even though our stories are different, we understand because of them, what you are going through.

Breathe. Its the first step in any undertaking.


I agree with many others that there is a good chance that the twins aren’t yours. If not, thank your lucky stars and RUN!! You’ve been blessed.

Also on your side is not being married. If they are your children, DO NOT marry her.

It’s almost a given that she will be a horrible mother, so if they are yours, hopefully you’re up for the challenge. I’d say it’s very likely that you will (could) get sole custody, because it probably won’t be difficult to prove her ill fit, negligent, etc… but even better for you. Here’s why… you can bet that any MONEY you pay her for child support will very likely RARELY get spent on the kids. She will neglect them and spend the money on herself and her selfish activities. So in that event I would go for sole custody and any money you would ever have been required to pay her, just use it for help (childcare) for yourself.

Wishing you the best.


All the great advice and reaching out to Roger – it inspires me.


donna dixon

Dear Roger,

I concur with everyone who has posted above me. It is a sick twist of fate when you find you have been duped by a sociopath.
They are capable of everything.

I do feel for you. You do need to have a DNA test to make sure those babies are yours. If they are then make the best of what you can to raise them and care for them in YOUR custody.

A spath is not capable of any love no matter how much they project to you their caring nature.

From the start she mirrored your qualities. She is an empty shell.

How do I know this??? I am a woman who was married to that empty shell for 25 plus years!


Dear Roger, I feel so bad for you kid. Like I’ve been saying right along this needs to be taught in school. If it was many of us would be on the lookout for this from the get-go. As others have said, a DNA test at birth would put this to rest. Don’t sign paternity papers till you’re satisfied your the father and as others have said. Don’t marry her. I married mine very naively.
I was a naive kid of 24 and I never knew these species of incubi existed.
I was in for the long haul and a one way ticket to hell. As others have said, they the spaths often have multiple sexual partners and are capable of juggling multiple lovers with neither of them the wiser. Mine had lover’s at the bar and on weekends visited a rich heiress who he eventually left me for.
I thought mine was leaving me for a local barmaid but stupid me; he was using her to get free drinks. He was sleeping with her, a married woman, the heiress and me. Some of it I found out after we divorced, some info many years later. Back in the day when you went for counseling they never told you that you were the victim of a sociopath. At least the ones I saw never did. Since the internet people are becoming more educated.
Mine brought me home an STD but luckily it was curable. I naively went to my family doctor and he told me what I had. He also said: Whatever you do don’t get pregnant by the b*%&*@#$.
He probably knew what he was but never told me. My lawyer was also hip to it more so than the therapist’s. As a matter of fact I believe it was my lawyer who told me I was dealing with a “sociopath.” He had seen numerous cases of it from other clients.
Mine was a real douche bag although stunningly handsome and he put on a first class act to win the heiress and her family going to another state even. She had no idea about me or the fact we were married and his wicked mother never told me about the fact he was a diagnosed spath and had been previously married. She never even told the heiress he had just discarded his wife in another state.
Be that as it may as others have said, if the kids are not yours run for the hills and never look back. If they are, you may have to take custody of them at some future point so if you marry look for a woman who is agreeable to raising them. Spaths do make lousy neglectful parents and many kids die or are abused at their hand. You may spend a few years dealing with her before this happens but expect the worst.
For you men folks out there godlike productions has a thread forum for men that have been victimized by female sociopaths and this is the link:

Good Luck and I’m sorry this happened to you kid.


Regarding there being more partners more than me and the other guy, it is plausible but not likely. One good thing that came out of hours of conversing with her other lover was just how many lies and how deep the rabbit hole went. But put everything aside one thing remained constant she always had “him” as a backup as they had been on and off now for over 5 years. By accident i even mentioned other guys i had known about her dating when me and her were just friends, it turns out we verified through dates and pics etc and she was indeed living with him in a full relationship at the time. So this is definitely not the first time living a double life. Ok regarding the name that she told to him as the baby’s father was actually my middle name, as my middle name is a much more common name than my first so he wouldn’t be able to find me on FB..etc. Regarding the paternity test I was going to do a different procedure using the mothers blood but found out with twins would most likely come back inconclusive. But at the beginning she agreed and was calm and even wanted to go get it done. I dont believe there were more partners or she just sleeps with whomever. She deliberately brainwashed this guy into believing she was single and so he came after her with a vengeance. She never really had him the way she wanted him as he told me he never fully trusted her for some reason. So I believe her way to make him believe he was in love with her was to break things off with him so callously as she did to me. Well it did he spent 8 months trying to get her back and even accepted her back pregnant with someone elses twins for crying out loud. She is extremely good at manipulating in fact i would say the best ive ever witnessed, a mastermind! Soon the kids will be born and we will have the paternity test so the truth will unfold. I am emotionally ready for whatever becomes reality obviously if they are not my kids it would be much easier! but my gut tells me otherwise. Time will tell. Thanks everyone for their comments, stories, suggestions without a doubt waking up and knowing that your life was a lie is the harshest reality to face. It’s almost like the movie “Vanilla Sky”


Roger~ she might have convinced you and the other guy that she was only doing the two of you, and you are clearly convinced of this, but the POINT I think everyone was trying yo make is that you should not put ANYTHING past her. I can speak for other people who comment here that sociopaths lie for a living. We can see through our experiences that there were far more lies uncovered with time than we realized.

In any case, I cant say for sure she’s a sociopath. Maybe a narcissist. If the kids are yours, good luck.

Ox Drover

Woundlicker, psychopath, narcissist, doesn’t matter, she is a master manipulator. She is toxic


Toxic, yes, but I said Roger cannot believe everything as it looks now. More likely than not there will be additional lies that reveal themselves in the future.

That being said, this sounds more to me like a woman, divorced, afraid to commit, finding two guys she has feelings for and a lot in common with. Confused of which way to go, which of the two realationships to pursue. Of course she lied and decieved!! She was having an affair with two different guys!!

Roger pursued her sexually. If she had a man and was flirting with Roger, it sounds like from his side of the story that she wasn’t interested so much in taking the fun they were having to the next level.

Now pregnant she chooses the man she was with first instead of the father of her twins. He and daddy talk, find out the level of her deception and lies and her first choice kicks her out.

She admits when confronted by both lovers that it was all true. What psychopath admits they lied?! None. They deny to the end. They lie more to cover up the lies. And what psychopath is shy about any sexual encounter in the first place? Sounds to me like she DOES have a conscience. She wanted to stay naughty with Roger in a non-sexual way at first. No psychopath does that. They jump all over the chance for free, random sex with anyone and everyone.

And as for her not showing much emotion about being discovered? Spaths show emotion at being found out. Its called the emotion of ANGER! She might possibly have just been relieved to be found out, maybe glad the love triangle is over. Tired of the deception she was carrying on.

As the victim of a spath, I can say I was a willing victim. I have had to own my mistakes, choices, and issues that got me to that point in my life.

Sorry if I found like Dr. Phil.

Normally I try never to say anything that would offend anybody and that was not the intention of my post here, but after thinking about it I have to give my opinion as an outsider going on one email.

That is not to say she is a poor, misunderstood, simply confused love-lorn woman who just made a mistake. She was sleeping around (two constitutes around) got pregnant, got found out, and now these little babies will have to grow up with her apparent problems.

Hopefully, she will grow up fast and learn from all of this.

Ox Drover

Woundlicker, opinions are like like noses, we’ve all got one! 😀 but my opinion is that she is high in psychopathic traits and maybe she wouldn’t qualify on the PCL-R, but she’s manipulative and a convincing liar. Some psychopaths under some circumstances will “admit” their lies. I’ve seen it both ways with my own son Patrick. But even when they admit, they are using it as a manipulation.

You just have more hope for this witch than I do. LOL


I vote for BPD.
But that isn’t very much different from spath in presentation. Supposedly they do have deep feelings, unlike spaths who have no access to their emotions except for some shallow ones.
this is a good website that could be of help to you.
this link is even better, though it is about male BPD’s.
And it’s interesting to me because there is no difference between what is described and the spath that I knew, but he’s not borderline, he’s an evil spath. Perhaps my exspath just took it so much further and crossed that borderline into psychopathy when he decided to commit murder for fun and games.

The labels can be helpful or confusing. It helps to take what you need and not get too attached to the label being used because then you could miss a spot.

Ox Drover

Skylar BPD and PPD and all the other PDs over lap in symptoms, so I think really are more a spot on a continuum than anything set in concrete.

Thanks for the links.

My point though was it doesn’t really matter what the “name” of the disorder is, as long as you know that the person has A personality disorder and that they are not going to be straight with anyone!


I found it helpful initially to read up on all of the different DSM diagnoses, scrutinize the traits, see what fit… and then eventually realized that it’s all an artificial, by committee construct to describe something hard to describe! But we know it when we see it: they have crossed some line along the continuum between normal and personality disordered. A “normal” person can be high in the traits, not diagnosable…. also as many of us know, the spaths fake it very well and so, let the mask slip to the victims sometimes, only the victims.

Anyway, that’s a rambly way of saying I have found a lot of helpful use in learning the details of the different flavors of personality disorders, and then setting it aside and not getting too bogged down in it. In the end it really didn’t matter to me WHAT the label was, but knowing what the traits were.

The most helpful part of it was seeing to what extent my experience was NOT singular, but in fact was a pattern common in these disorders. It helped me see that I wasn’t crazy or imagining things. And it helped me name what was going on, to help me get out of the fog of confusion and start to map the whole experience out, to see it clearly rather than being so confused and buffeted about by it.



Same church, different pew. I am a gay man, but, your story and mine are very similar in so many regards. Now that I have been free of my S-ex (sociopath ex) I have a very clear idea on how they work.

In your story, several phrases jumped out at me. “I couldn’t get a read on her.” “After that night came the distance, lack of texts, not answering phone calls etc.” These creatures are masters of manipulation and you have described classic methods of how they do it. I now realize when I started getting bombarded with texts from my S-ex, he was up to no good.

But, a bigger problem with the whole texting thing is that you (indeed all of us) tend to start to connect a lot of dots that aren’t there, because we’re dealing solely with written words, not with facial expressions, let alone oral intonations. People can say whatever the hell they want on a screen. Problem is, unless you are running what you’re reading against your senses of sight and hearing, you’re never going to win.

One thing I did after my so-called relationship with the S- ex was to adopt a no-texting policy. Since internet dating is a part of the modern world, you can’t completely ignore it, but my policy was anyone I was interested in was allowed to send me 2 emails/texts. After that, one of the two of us had to give the other his phone number. Then there was one call to set up a date for coffee. And then we sat there and met face-to-face. And that’s how I got to began to get to know the person I chose to become involved with. Because, sitting across from him I could read his body language, hear his verbal cues, etc. And know what? My approach works. I have been in a very happy, stable, non sociopathic relationship for 3 years.

Quite frankly, you need to quit texting. 13 hours?! While you were driving?! Good God man. It is a miracle you didn’t kill somebody or yourself. If you can put that much energy into texting, you can save your energy by dialing a phone number and talking. It’s not as good as sitting across from someone, but you stand a better chance of getting an accurate read on the other person than reading a bunch of words on a page.

And as for my partner and I? We never text, except to say one or the other of us is running late to the restaurant.

I know you are reeling, but I also have to say that I hope for your sake that the paternity test says you aren’t the father. I have read enough horror stories on this site over the years to know that the 18 plus years of hell this creature will put you through in connection with the kids isn’t worth it.

Ox Drover

Hey Matt, my man! Glad to hear from you! How are things going? Three years with the new guy? I can’t believe it’s been that long.

Good advice to Roger and I’m glad you said something about the driving and Texting…I started to then decided not to blast someone new, but you are right! It is insane and is one of my “pet peeves” that people do….and die because of doing it.


Matt, sorry i should clarify i was the passenger not the driver, that would be ridiculous driving 13 hours while texting! I am feeling a little better about the situation at hand and after reading others stories about 20 year marriages and then finding out the kids are not theirs makes me happy that I discovered she was a SP much sooner than years down the line. If they are not my kids I am emotionally prepared and if they are I will do everything in my power to provide all the love and support for them! So to add to my story she now tells me that the girlfriend she was going to live with is not going to work out and she now will be have no place to live come next month! I told as long as the paternity test proves im the father to leave the kids with me and when she gets her own place we can share custody, but she is not falling for it and wouldnt do that. I even as a “test” threw out the option of her moving back in with me until she can work again so that she has a roof over her head so at least the babies get to see both of us and i can help with everything. her reaction was what i expected she barely even responded and tells me she is weighing her options and has to speak with her family. Lol She left me for another guy, he kicked her out shes is 7 months pregnant with no home and i offer her a free ride and she hardly acknowledges it???? Ohhh yeah that’s right Im dealing with a SP! I can definitely see how a SP can make you question your own judgement or even make u feel crazy in your own mind.


Um, just being 7 months pregnant can leave you a little “off”.
Being sociopathic may not make it easier…..Wonder what will happen when the nesting hormones kick in….



Welcome to LF……You’ll find much support here and strategy to help you through your journey. Buckle up……


Silvermoon: She is 7 months pregnant and acts like she is so happy and this is all just so amazing and beautiful and that life is going to be so grand once she has her kids. reality check: no financial support no friends or family to live with, she is delusional to put it lightly! Any sane pregnant woman with twins would be freaking out right now but she acts as if everything is fantastic! Like i have said this is the most bone chilling part of this all, my family’s jaws drop when i tell them about her reactions.


In the last trimester, the hormones that kick in make you feel like superwoman. Its the treat you get before you get tricked out of sleep post partum….

Where is she living? How is she living? If she’ not at your place, and you aren’t supporting her, who is?

And if I thought they were my kids, I want to know exactly how she was taking care of herself because spaths aren’t known to care too much…..


yes last trimester but she has acted happy and fine since the confrontation. She admitted to everything only because after me and the other guy spoke for hrs and uncovered everything there would be no point in denying as there was no escaping the truth. She is supposedly staying with her friend but her friend is moving next month and she has no where to go as of yet. She works but makes little money enough for now since she isnt paying rent. I can no longer worry about how she is taking care of herself she is no longer my concern! I would like to know but i have no control so why wast my time? After paternity is proven that is another story but for now i am focused on my mental state and my priorities not hers!


My concerns about how she takes care of herself would be for the babies. Drinking and drug use can create problems for the children as they develop.

Is she getting prenatal care?

Time too, to think about delivery.

Most deliveries now a days are c-section although they get everyone to take the classes…..

Will you both attend? Will anyone be there?

Here’s the tough part, whoever their dad is needs to be there for the children.

Once those kids pop, they are a priority and the grown ups have to be able to make them so.

Your mental state is something that you will have to manage by force of will if you are a dad and you are going to be taking care of those babies. With twins, you have to get on a schedule and keep it.

Otherwise your mental state will -well its hard to think of an analogy, but you’ll be a mess.

The thing is, once you are parents, the world will expect you to have your lives under control in order to care for the children.

If they are yours, then you need to be THERE.

Like EB said: Buckle up!

Ox Drover

Roger, good way to look at it….focus on yourself right now.

Silvermoon, I’m not sure the nesting hormones will kick in with her, she obviously has little grasp of the situation and even less planning for the future…typical BPD behavior or PPD behavior for that matter.

My guess is that after the twins are born she will play the old, I can’t work and take care of TWO babies alone so you daddy need to support us until I can work, so pony up an apartment a car, and money for food and utilities. Oh, doesn’t leave you enough to live on. Oh, so sorry.

There is also the possibility too, unless these are identical twins, that each man could be the father of one of them. Wouldn’t that be a mess! So Roger you need to make sure that BOTH twins are tested.


Who’s insurance is this going on?

Babies don’t pop out for free….

If the kids need anything when they are born and there are lots of things that they could, is it covered?

Who gets the bill?

When she can’t work after delivery for six weeks, who is going to make sure those kids are getting taken care of properly?

Does she have the STUFF she is going to need? Can she afford diapers?

New moms pathological or not need help. Who is going to be there?

Do you know HER family? Will they step in?

I think that all of you are far underestimating the situation here by thinking that any of you has the freedom to think about a lot else besides getting ready to be parents!

Think you have time to kill? Think again!

Ox Drover

Silver, with her being “low income” most states will pick up the doctor and hospital costs on medicaid, then if there is a father identified, they may bill him for some of it or all of it. If an unmarried mother gets welfare the state will go after child support to reimburse the state…it is usually up to 25% of the man’s take home money but may vary depending on hos many kids and so on.

As for all the things she will “need”—at this point, where’s she gonna put them? And as for that a baby can sleep in a card board box as well as a crib, so it is amazing the minimal amount of things you can get by without.


Roger ~ Your statement – “I can no longer worry about how she is taking care of herself she is no longer my concern” is flawed thinking.

How she is taking care of herself has a direct impact on the unborn children. IF you even think that these children could be yours, you need to worry, you need to make it your concern.

Ox Drover

Milo, “worrying” about what she is doing (drinkiing? drugs?) etc isn’t going to do any good frankly….though if he knows for sure she may be drinking/drugging he might contact child protective services. Again, not sure it would do any good, but “worrying” about it isn’t going to help. She is not going to be easily influenced to clean up her act.


Yes. At some point, the medical costs are going to go look for the dad.They are significant.

These are part of the very many questions to ask OX.

There are questions and decisions which need to be made about the children soon to be born.

My point is: Its not about the parents anymore. And the parents who ever they are and the families that support them, need to be heads up.

Making babies comes with responsibility. in the current climate of our economy and politics, I doubt that the wait and see whose they are is an effective plan.

Its a curve I’d want to be ahead of financially and legally by as far as I could get!

The only circumstance by which I can imagine that all parties walk away from this is if the children are given up for adoption at birth.

That is a very difficult decision to make. But it is a real one.

Without knowing who the father really is, the complexity of the situation is greater.

But the reality is that two children are on their way into the world and the time for making those decisions is shorter by each day.

And when they arrive, nobody is going to care about the parent’s emotional dramas. The only question will be how the children will be provided for and how the bills are going to get paid.

Its a tough one. And it needs grown up resolutions.


What can I say? I feel really bad for those little ones. Someone needs to be responsible because those children will not feed, change, or grow by themselves…and twins…my god!!
I cannot relate to her “thinking” patterns. When I was at that term I was already stockpiling diapers, wipes, ect. Buying food for meals to freeze. Although I was still with the spath I somehow knew I would be on my own at some point. One of the smartest things I did was not move in with him again…despite his efforts. Thinking about the outcome of that one..ugh..sends shivers down my spine.
Although my initial response to you was to go NC…I’m kind of thinking a little differently now on the subject.
What is your relationship with her family, the other guy. Is there a way you could speak to them to at leaste discuss her living arrangements. If they are yours this will help ensure their tempory safety..until you get DNA. If they aren’t yours at leaste you will be doing the right thing…for the kids. They will have it rough enough in time.
Someone needs to be the adult. If shes not going to do it…someone needs to. You can try. At leaste secure a living arrangement for her if possible. Family…the other guy…something.
And you might need to be the one to go into “mommy” mode. Sorry to say. If they aren’t yours well you are lucky. Have any preparations been made yet regarding crib, stroller, car seat, ect.? Thay stuff is expensive and something thats not a one night purchase deal.
Have you considered doing this? Start stockpiling now, so the cost doesn’t hit you all at once..diapers, crib, ect., save all the reciepts..if they are yours than it’s there. Also it might help in the future proving to the court (should custody issues arise) that you were an active participant in the childrens lives.
If the children are not yours you can always offer to “sell” them to the other guy or her or her family when the time comes…or return them if you choose. I realise this concept hardly seems fair…but on the off chance they are not yours you will be out some money but free from the mess…Woste case scenerio. Lots of money saved in the long run…
Gosh I wish I could offer some more advise but thats all I’ve got. Think of yourself and the kids needs first.
The pain and anger well thats a whole different ballpark.
God bless


Another issue I hate to bring up is “what will her emotional stability” be like once the kids are born? If she is in denial now about the practical issues she will be in for a very rude awakening once the little ones arrive.There is no escaping the “work, sacrifice and unconditional love” required in raising children. ESPECIALLY newborns. This can lead to a very potentially dangerouse situation for the kids. Neglect, abuse and abandonment are all within the realm of possiblity for a spath.
I’m not trying to freak you out but it’s all very, very real.


Silvermoon & Coping ~

The thing you have to remember is that “disordered” people don’t live in the real world.

Us turkey’s here in the real world, are accustomed to dealing with consequences that come as a result of our actions. They are not. When we hear “baby”, we know what they need, formula, diapers, medical care and we know that they are expensive and need undivided attention. They do not. Not only that, they really don’t care.

I remember having this conversation with my spathy daughter – how are you going to take care of a baby? where is the money to feed, clothe and keep a roof over his head going to come from? Her reply was that maybe he wouldn’t have all the expensive toys that other kids had, but he would be just fine. Well, we know how that turned out. Even when Grand was living in deplorable conditions, covered with sores and thrush so bad he could not suck on a bottle, she was “mommie of the year” all sunshine and lollipops. THEY DON’T GET IT AND DON’T CARE.


Hey Roger,

I have a very similar story and I want to let I know.
Do not under for any reason let her in your house. The twins yes if they are yours yes, but not her. You have to get paternity now, but it into court bouts 9 months and when they are at the hospital get a DNA before the leave the hospital even if you have to pay out of pocket.
The no reaction to letting her live with you is a trap, she was to see if you still cared for her and was willing to still be her victim. She is plotting her next move. Whatever you do, do not tell her she is a path and get DNA and aim for custody with a psychological examination. Say she has symptoms of a personality disorder. It is going to cost 10-25k to fight a woman fo custody, but you know they will be in better care wih a healthy parent. Compliling documentation with a highly manipulative person is very difficult in Civil court bc they assume both parties are lying anyway! It can take months years or decades for you to have enough if you do not choose the route of psych exam. She won’t expect it and at the very lag you will get a GAL appoint and with her being homeless with no means of supporting the children will be in your best interest. This is you leverage! Homeless and jobless and possibly mentally unstable use it now or u could be sorry. Dont worry about her not letting you see the children, u will have to deal with that until u get into court an get visitation. She has all the rights now bc you are unmarried. Go into now and get this things established befor the children are born.


I agree…This woman isn’t going to wake up when the twins are born if she is a spath.
If anything she will go into actress mode and act as if she was the only woman on this earth to ever produce twins. It will be ALL ABOUT HER.


Yep, Witty

Right now she is acting “like everything is fantastic” because she is wearing the “give me all your attention, I am pregnant with twins” mask. What better way to grab attention and lavish in it.

After the babies are born, like you said the “only woman on earth to ever produce twins”, plus the pity ploy – I am a single mom, feel sorry for me mask. Another good one.

Then whoever is the father, whether it Roger or if it is like my daughter’s case, who knows, name him banana after the bunch, will get the “twin pawns” used on him at every turn.


Von ~ great advice and bless you.


So, the boil down is:

1. Get the kids away from her sooner than later, however that can be done.
2. Don’t let her move in or you will NEVER get HER out
3. There are real risks to the children now and once they are born
4. She will want to use them as pawns to get more for herself in every way that she can without using the acquired resources whatever they are for providing for the children.
5. IF you are named as father and she keeps the children you will be under legal obligation to pay.
6. Think the other guy is hoping he gets identified as the father??? Me? Not so much…..

So what we are saying is-

Think strategically.
Keep your knowledge and ideas close to the vest.
Act on good advice
Know your rights and responsibilities
Don’t act out of kindness for this woman.
She will abuse it and you.
If they are your children, you will need to move mountains to keep them safe.

Not too soon to get a lawyer and start listening to them!


that probably came out wrong! Of course I do care but right now she is going to live where she wants i cannot force her to live anywhere. OK the whole drug thing someone mentioned is a long shot she is not nor has used drugs I could go on worry about everything she could do but we could do that about just every situation, doesn’t bring clarity just more paranoia! I know she is crafty and will not wind up on the streets she will find a friend, family member someone to take her in, this i know for sure! I all ready told her i will not help her with living expenses after what she put me through so she knows i am not playing sugar daddy! She has insurance through work so it covers the twins. I have the paternity labs number on speed dial as they told me to call them as soon as the babies are delivered they will have someone come to the hospital for the mouth swabs. They are paternal twins not identical as far as two separate fathers it is biologically possible but extremely rare but hey I’m open to anything as this story is definitely not over! I will keep you guys posted as the story unwinds itself


Do you still work at the same place?
What is their policy on people who work there dating?

Are you vulnerable on that?


Roger ~ Sorry if I sounded rough on you. You are dealing with a bunch of “child first” advocates here. With us the adults come in second.

I feel for you and do realize you are trying to do the right thing and that you are between a rock and a hard place. I give you credit for caring.

Again, sorry

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