Lovefraud received the following email from a reader whom we’ll call “Lorna.”
I thought I’d write and tell you a success story, thanks to all the information you provide to help people to survive a sociopath.
I’ve met them at various times in my life, however, I was lucky that I never married or got pregnant or lived with one. A couple of years ago, one crossed my path, and in a short time caused a lot of disruption before I dumped him. I pretty much forgot all about the narcissistic sociopath since then.
I wanted to watch the Will and Kate wedding live, but didn’t have TV, and on the West Coast it would be shown at 3 a.m. I posted on the activities partners section of Craigslist hoping someone was planning on being up to watch, and might let me come join them. I was surprised to get an email from a man, with whom I exchanged emails and phone calls before I felt comfortable going to his place to watch the wedding.
I made chocolate covered strawberries and brought a bottle of champagne, and he had some too, so we laughed and had a wonderful time staying up til dawn watching the wedding — competing on who knew the most wedding trivia, etc. I had a blast, so did he, or so I thought. He was 14 yrs younger, worked part time as a baseball umpire, had a bright and witty mind, and was a total gentleman. We ended up snuggling a bit, and even kissing a little.
I wasn’t going to chase him, so I did send a quick email letting him know I got home safely, I left it up to him to reach out to contact me for future dates, if he wanted. A week went by. I finally got an email telling me he’d been out of commission as he’d pulled muscles in his back. I took him dinner and a heating pad and massaged his back. I waited another week before he contacted me again, which I thought was a bit strange. We emailed and planned to go for a hike at the ocean to his favorite place.
Previously, he had told me he was a confirmed bachelor, and he had “been played” by some gal a year before, and his feelings were evidentially hurt over that break up. He made another comment I didn’t quite catch, however, I think he said if I got too romantic he’d just end the relationship. Huh? I didn’t understand.
Hike to the ocean
The day came for us to go on our picnic hike to the ocean. I was to meet him at noon at his place. I had misplaced my keys and was running about 10 minutes late, so I called and got his voice mail to let him know I was on my way. When I arrived, he pointed to his watch and let me know I was late and he has a “thing about that.” Hmmm, kinda uptight, I thought to myself. After all, I did call and left a message. It wasn’t as if we were going to a concert that started at a specific time. We had all day, and what was 10 minutes? I was on “observe and take mental notes” duty, as I’d learned to watch for signs from the very very beginning, as people will give plenty of clues as to who they really are if you take off your blinders and stop making excuses for people.
My next clue came when he drove like a maniac, and made me uncomfortable tailgating. My telling him so and asking him to slow down only helped a bit when I pointed out he had 364 days a year to drive as he wished, and this one time to consider me. He did slow down, a bit, but when we came to a very curvy section of road I asked him to take the easier detour so I wouldn’t get car sick, and he refused! Ok, now my alarm system was on full alert. I was getting too many clues of his selfishness, and little comments he made to upset me. He even noticed something about me he said he could use to “push your buttons.” I didn’t think highly of that, either! Instead of being comfortable in his company, I was becoming quite wary. He seemed to take pleasure making me squirm. Not good.
We arrived at the beach, went on a bit of a hike to get there, and he helped me up and over these huge boulders on the beach. However, he wanted to be out on the edge where huge waves were crashing up on the rocks. He stood out there like a crazy guy, and I could see he was addicted to adrenalin. I couldn’t keep up with him and didn’t want to. I was getting tired, and yet he kept pushing me to go further and further, though I knew if I did I could fall and hurt myself, and told him so. HE wanted to go further, so we did, and that was that. I just made more mental notes realizing how selfish and somewhat antagonistic I found him towards me. I actually should not have been climbing on those rocks, I’m 64 years old and have had knee surgery, but he pushed me and said he didn’t drive all that way not to see it all. Eventually, we left to return towards home.
He had originally suggested we go to a local seafood restaurant for some clam chowder, but now that it was time to do so, he changed his mind and we drove back towards home. He did stop at a taco wagon that is parked in the grocery store parking lot and got less than $10 worth of tacos. He did make a point to pull out about eight $20 bills and fanned them in front of himself as he was paying for the tacos. He let it be known he had the $ to eat in a real restaurant, but instead here we were sitting at a picnic table in a grocery parking lot eating $1.50 tacos. Mind you, I’m not a gold digger, and I had brought food for the picnic. I eat at that taco truck myself from time to time. It was just the way he did this felt more like he was intentionally avoiding spending any money on me, and not keeping his promise to go for chowder as originally planned.
“Bad boy”
After we got back to his place, he didn’t help off load any of my stuff to put in my vehicle. He just gathered up his own and went up to his apartment leaving me to do my own. Once I did, we watched TV for a while, then he started kissing and it was warming up. I was about to stop it to leave when he came out and made a comment that after a while of a relationship going along nicely that he “likes to mix it up” and will let his “bad boy” come out. He said he would do things like cancel plans with me at the very last minute because something he rather do came along.
I told him that wasn’t a problem as long as he gave me enough notice to make other plans so my time wasn’t wasted. He said no, that it would be at the last minute, and why shouldn’t he go do something he liked better? I thought about it for a minute, looked back over the times I’d been with him, especially all the signals he had been giving me throughout the day, and I realized what I was dealing with. I figured out I was with a selfish brat narcissistic, probably abusive, and I felt like he was trying to set me up to expect less of him. Once I had him pegged, I instantly knew I had to get out of there immediately and have nothing more to do with him.
So, after taking in his bad boy comment, I replied back to him, “You wouldn’t do that with me if you ever wanted to see me again. Thank you for the warning.” I stood up, went over to where my car keys were sitting on a table, picked them up, went to the front door and left. I walked out on him and never looked back. I know he wasn’t expecting that! For once in my life, I had my eyes and ears open, didn’t believe a word he said, watched his behavior and believed that, and when the picture emerged, I didn’t waste another minute trying to change him or hope for the best. I just got out before any damage could be done.
In retrospect, I realize he was sizing me up to see if I took any Rx, had any jewelry and money, investments, where I lived, etc., and assumed I had $$$. He picked the wrong person! I know I’ve not heard from him either as he realized I really don’t have anything to offer him, and I’m certainly not going to have anything to do with him anyway.
I wish I had used my head in the past, but at least I did this time. I am grateful for your website for helping to ID a sociopath and pay attention to the signals. Also, the most important is to know not to get involved in the first place, because you cannot change the person and he’s not anyone you should have in your life anyway.
So, I dodged a bullet and the info on your website helped me to do just that.
Good Post from Lorna,
Looking back at the last guy now I recall he was very interested if I had equity in my place..he asked a few times. When I lost my job, he bailed out on me. Then when I got a great job, he started coming around sniffing out the cash. Asked how much my new salary was. Buy that time, he’d been romancing a new “love interest.” He’d make plans and then cancel and twice didn’t even show up or call. Something didn’t seem right…living at home at 40 making $100k salary just didn’t sit well with me. Good looking, narcisstic and superficial. I was crushed when it was over but looking back I guess I have a guardian angel. He came into my life right after a 100% full blown sociopath ripped me off blind. Why am I attracting these types?? I haven’t dated in over a year because now I’m so jaded. I’m trying every day to shake it off and hope to find a real persona and not a fake….but it’s hard.
Dear I wonder,
Good to see you back sweetie!
I don’t think you are jaded, I think you are just being CAUTIOUS. That’s a good thing.
For me, for what it is worth, I have had to learn to TRUST MYSELF, my own judgment to keep me safe in relationships….and so keep on working toward learning to trust yourself to pick out the losers, and spot the winners.
Sure it is hard, but we just have to keep up our P-dar and watch for the RED FLAGS, seems like you did watch for the red flags with this creep….he was not a good bet. That sounds pretty WISE to me, and a good decision. So I think you are doing GREAT! (((hugs))) and welcome home!
I Wonder: I hate to say it but many times we do have to kiss the frogs to make it to the prince. I know I had to. I went to hell to find my prince. But I got 2 beautiful kids to show for it and I’ve been in a good marriage for 30 years.
And I didn’t meet my husband through on-line dating. LOL!!!
I like to compare it to separating the wheat from the chaff.
After the two spaths I had just about given up on the idea that a good man would come into my life and it happened when I had just about given up hope. I was of the opinion only a few women got lucky and every other guy is a psycho.
About the on-line dating thing: I believe you can meet a prince but for every good catch of a man there’s 20 psycho’s.
You mentioned when you lost your job he flew the coop. I
was the main bread winner in my marriage to the spath too and this always crossed my mind that if I lost my job he would fly the coup. My mother even suggested I tell him that so I could get rid of him.
My mother wanted me to leave him and she was probably right. He started showing his true colors right after we were married. The woman he left me for made twice as much as me and they lasted longer as a couple. I think you’re right. It’s all about the money with them. If something better comes along they’re off in the running. Who needs a man like that? Couples that are devoted to each other take care of each other.
You wouldn’t get that out of a spath. I think I knew that when I was with my ex and I was hoping I could somehow make it work. Oh well, live & learn.
HI All,
I would like to answer some questions asked of me here, and to clarify a few things. First, when I posted on CL, it was NOT in the personals section. I was NOT looking for anything romantic at all, no relationship, It was in the general community Activities section just to watch the wedding. I hoped some gals might answer, and was quite surprised a guy did. I even asked if he was gay, as I didn’t expect a man to be into the wedding.
I also talking to him a number of times on the phone, and made sure he was well aware of me giving his contact data to all my friends so they would know where I was in the event anything happened to me. I didn’t sense any danger, and I totally had forgotten all about spaths even existing as I have not dated in years. Heck, I’m 64 years old and over weight, and not at all feeling attractive. Men don’t look at me anymore, and so I really wasn’t feeling anything at all along the lines of any romance possibly happening. That was not my intention.
After 7 hours with him and we drank 3 bottles of champagne, I did let my guard down. My bad. It was fun. What can I say? I haven’t had a social life or been touched by anyone on years – not even to have my hand held. So yes, after 7 hours of laughing, we kissed. Not really unlike going out on an actual date with someone and getting kissed on the first one. He really was a gentleman, and I enjoyed the attention. Of course, in retrospect, he knew exactly what he was doing, and his web was spinning around me. I wasn’t entirely gullible as I did make mental notes, though had no red flags the first two times together that I NOTICED. Looking back, his interrupting me when I was talking only to turn the conversation to himself was an indicator, but not enough to make me not want to see him again.
As for going to a hotel, I didn’t have the $$$, plain and simple. Since the wedding was at 3 am, not anyone I knew was interested to stay up for it, or they had to work and could not.
I really didn’t start noticing the flags until the drive to the beach. They didn’t come all at once, and I wasn’t sure of what was happening until we got back to his place and then the pieces of the puzzle started to really fit together. It wasn’t until he actually came out and told me about his bad boy side that I remembered one of my other golden rules: When a man tells you he’s a jerk, believe him! Then, I ran through my mind about the signals I had been noticing, and added them up, and realized he was not just some normal guy, and I best take my leave.
THEN, I remembered the guy from 2 years before, and after that experience I began researching what this was all about. So, after cutting the recent spath off, I came home to research again as I kind of knee jerked out of there. I guess there was still a part of me that wanted to believe he was a good guy, and maybe I’d cut the cord prematurely or in error. So I read up again about narcissistic and sociopaths, and yep, he did fit many of the particulars. There was a part of me that hoped I was wrong, but I needed to remind myself of the traits and to be sure I had done the right thing. I don’t honestly know how I came to this particular site, but in my surfing and reviewing data on spaths, I did find this place. Reading other people’s stories just confirmed to me what I had feared. I guess I needed assurance I had done the right thing by knee jerking out of there. Part of me wondered if maybe I had assuming the worst in error.
He sized me up pretty well, obviously. Single, not really lonely but definitely alone, and being with him at first made me realize I would enjoy having the companionship of a man again in my life. I really thought those days were behind me, so this was a fluke and I decided to give it a shot. I was stepping out of my cocoon because my friends have been telling me I needed to open up and allow someone into my life.
I’ve kissed my share of frogs in my lifetime, and I’ve wasted myself on the wrong ones far too many times. Thanks to lots of therapy and reading up on Energy Vampires (my therapist’s term), I’ve become somewhat familar with the type – but forgot about it until the trip to the beach.
I don’t know if this explains myself better, and yes, I deserve some blame, but honestly, I’m not going to beat myself up because I put myself out there and let the wrong person get a little close. I nipped it in the bud, and that is what I choose to focus on. That’s a long way from where I was in my younger years where I’d invested years and been bled dry by some of my old boyfriends. Three dates is a huge improvement, actually. I am also not sorry I put the ad on CL, I did have a very fun time, and I’m not sorry I got kissed! At least I didn’t bed him, marry or have his kid. He didnt get into my wallet, and only took a little part of me, not much at all. Just some of my time and a little of my emotions. I cut it off before anything significant happened, which is the theme of my original post in the first place.
\
Lorna
Joanie 123 and Lorna,
You’ve opened my mind – these spaths are the “frogs” (I remember that old saying, not having applied it until now to spaths, personally experiencing an “aha” moment). Unfortunately, we can get conned into marrying them, wasting a lot of OUR PRECIOUS TIME getting caught up in their silly, stupid, idiotic ways, in the end, doing a job on us mentally and physically. Very unfair. If someone had told me (when we dated) that the spath was a “frog” (and NOT a prince), it would have saved me a LOT of heartache and TROUBLE. I would have heeded the warning and not married him. Everyone (who really knew him, mainly his family members) chose to stay silent. Lucky for me (a little bit of sarcasm).
Lorna,
Thanks for your note. So you HAVE been exposed to a spath before. I get it.
Like you, I am SO DAMNED GLAD I didn’t get an STD, get married, have a kid, commit to my spath for life. He did enough damage in 3 years, damage I can’t even fully articulate much less calculate. It’s going to be a long time trying to heal form this. And the asshole keeps emailing me and staying in touch which make things worse.
In any case, for some reason, CraigsList seems to attracted the scummiest people. I know people put cars for sale and whatnot on there, but there IS A LOT OF BAD on craigslist, I don’t care WHAT section you are using.
There are so many other avenues to accomplish whatever task you have in mind – I think the folks here are just saying, please stay safe.
I am so glad you shared your story. I’m so glad you listened and got away.
This morning I did my workout and the whole time I was thinking about all the things he did and said that told me who he really was. I didn’t “hear” what I didn’t want to hear. There were blanks and I filled in the blanks with what I DID want to hear. There were clear signs and I was oblivious.
I was not educated about sociopaths.
Now I know.
Bluejay and Superkid10
In my younger years, we didn’t have internet, and I had no way of knowing there was such a thing as an spath. My father was an abusive ahole, and extremely controlling, so that was my ‘norm’. I didn’t have a healthy barometer, and no one told me about bad guys, just murderers and such you read about.
For me, and I think for everyone, the key is to really learn to set aside all emotion and pay close attention when you first meet someone and during the early phase. Ignore the romance (enjoy it, but don’t take it seriously!!!) at first, and watch out for those subtle clues! That seems to be the key. I can’t tell you how many jerks I’ve met, and when it didn’t work out I thought it was me! It has taken many a wrong choice and great coaching with my therapist to finally ‘get it’. Hopefully, others will open their eyes and be on the lookout and not be afraid to unhook despite all the good stuff they throw out at first.
As for so many avenues to accomplish what I had in mind, in my particular latest incident, it was a last minute spur of the moment decision to post to watch the wedding on CL because I had exhausted the other avenues, and besides, as I said romance was NOT on my mind – I wasn’t looking for a man, I just wanted to watch the darn wedding and NOT reruns, and I wanted to share the experience for just what it was. CL was my last resort.
But points well taken. I have used CL successfully for all sorts of things including selling a car, however I do know CL comes this lots of scams, but the whole world is not bad. I certainly would not be looking to hook up romantically with anyone on CL. We run into spaths in all walks of life, not necessarily just romantically, so again, it’s so important to learn to watch for clues and then HEED THEM.
If you find yourself getting a ‘twinge’ and feel a little bad at something the person has said and done….pay attention.
If you find yourself making excuses for their behavior….pay attention, and the list goes on. If you find yourself tolerating anything, pay attention. If they say or do anything that lacks being concerned for your well being, or disrespectful in any way, pay attention. The list goes on and on, but watch for these things starting from day one.
I do know that in my instances, the guys were all sweet (well, mostly) until they figured out I was starting to fall for them. Once they realized they ‘had’ me, then they started their number. So, it behooves us to not give in prematurely and surrender to their wooing, and to watch for the clues. Once I went to bed with one guy, he switched gears right there in bed! Things were just getting going, and I was on top when he asked, “Are you done yet?” Huh? He just wanted his needs met and had zero interest in satisfying mine. BIG red flag! That was an eye opener for me.
It is also important after you leave to LEAVE. I deleted all emails. I deleted his phone number from my cell. I set my email program to BLOCK HIS EMAILS so I never receive them in the first place. I will not let my asshole stay in touch, and Superkid I suggest you do everything possible to eliminate his ability to do so, too. Hang up without a word if he calls ( I assume you must have reason to have a public phone number or won’t change it to a private one), if he mails anything don’t open it and send it back refused. If you have to, move to another location.
Do everything you can to eliminate his ability to contact you, or just have the great wall of China around you to block any that comes your way. I wish you all the best as I know not everything is possible to do, just do what you can. I realized by leaving the emails on my server (the good ones from at first when it was fun) I was doing my part to stay hooked, so I deleted them. If you need them for legal purposes, copy and paste them into a Word document, print it out, then seal in an envelope and put away out of sight, then delete all from your hard drive. Clear out everything you can related to the jerk. That’s my advice.
Easy for me to say. If, after one month I was so hooked, I can only imagine how hard it must be for someone really invested for a long period of time. However, another key is to take action once you have the writing on the wall. Go all the way because there isn’t a half way with these people.
In my younger years, we didn’t have titles or descriptions of spaths to refer to. Yep, you did have to kiss a lot of frogs. Unfortunately, I just thought jerks were normal! Just because they’re a dime a dozen doesn’t mean they are normal, they’re just a lot of them!
Oh, someone asked me why I didn’t watch the wedding with my gay friend – he is in Illinois and I’m on the west coast.
It’s a beautiful day here, and I’ve lots of spring cleaning to do, so signing off for now. Thanks so much everyone for sharing and being there.
Be safe,
Lorna
Dear Lorna,
Your above post has so much wisdom in it! “are you done yet?” LOL Yea, seeing those RED FLAGS (and in some cases red BANNERS) and ignoring them is what gets us into trouble===deep trouble!
Thanks for sharing your wisdom!
I was going to advertise some stuff for sale on Craig’s list (I’ve sold stuff there before) but I think I will wait til son D gets home from his summer job before I put them up there.
Ladies, pass on the warning signs to others. The early signs are there. Get out as soon as you can.
Lorna thank you so much for this article. The red flags that the guy gave off were incredible, but they are so easily overlooked by so many people if we don’t know what to pay attention to. They really do show their true colours within the first couple of dates. I wouldn’t set too much store by the first date, because they’re on their best behaviour, but I reckon by the second or third their best behaviour mask is beginning to crack, and by the fourth or fifth it’s well and truly slipping, maybe even off altogether. If we have gotten phsycial by then, we are more hooked. This is the best case for not having sex too soon I think – my main reason anyway, to avoid getting prematurely attached emotionally and physically to the wrong person, makes it much harder to break away. We need to date with a clear head, and our panties on! Give it ten dates I say, at least, before phsyically getting it on! Don’t tell them that though, obviously….!
This showing of the true self after a few dates is the case with everyone I think, not just the sociopathic. But what a blessing! Time – the most precious gift we can give to ourselves, along with education of this sort, in order to truly get to know someone.
When I look back, I see how an ex of mine treated a beggar on our second or third date – with utter contempt, I wanted the ground to swallow me up, he was so cruel to the guy but I was trying not to offend my date either so said nothing, something I would normally have done. He discarded me like that in the end, treatedme exactly the same. I’ve discarded takeaway cartons with more care than the way in which he broke up with me, after two years.
But just goes to show that the signs are there at the start, and if we arm ourselves with information about the red flags, we can save ourselves a lot of potential heartache. Furthermore it shows that it’s true what they say – watch how your date treats neutral people at the start (beggars, waitresses, shop clerks etc) because that’s how they’ll treat you at the end!
Love to all, and raising my coffee cup to the blessed wisdom to be found as always on this board! xxx