REGISTER | LOGIN

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Male and female sociopaths have remarkable similarities

Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader “PressEject” has written several insightful Letters to Lovefraud about his involvements with sociopathic men. You can read them here:

Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 1)

Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 2)

Pulled in by the child in the sociopath

As a bisexual person, PressEject was most recently romantically involved with a woman who also turned out to be disordered. In this post, he compares the two experiences.

By PressEject

There was absolutely NOTHING in her emails that asked me to find with her (together) some kind of understanding or resolution. Instead it was like she was writing the script for everything, forgetting another person might have a view different than hers. I let her write it, I stepped back. I was not being asked for anything, so no hard feelings in not responding luckily (other than the overall regret and unease from falling into this sticky web.)

As someone with a bisexual past, I am now a person who has dated both a male S and a female S. I can tell you that their (non-gender reliant) destructive qualities and personality traits have some remarkable similarities:

1. They both got upset if they didn’t get what THEY want.

2. They both played “the victim” if something was held from them that they wanted.

3. They both tried to use guilt (or gaslighting) to make me do something they wanted.

4. They both had “back up” plans in case I “didn’t work out.” He kept his secret, I remembered his behavior and then asked her if she had a “back up plan” and (surprise!) she said as a matter of fact “yes!” (ouch!)

5. Both would become aggressively frustrated when their views were challenged. (I learned to challenge them the second time around!!)

6. Both “excelled at marketing themselves.” Both were fairly fearless in social settings.

7. I am the one who was blamed for any problems, not them. Could not be criticized.

8. Both were capable of very SHORT-TERM regret. (deceptive practice that I was able to keep my guard up against the second time around.)

9. Lack of real empathy, some amount of fake or obvious empathy that could be gained by them when it was explained to them but not forthcoming if left to their own devices (which was most of the time!)

10. Neither showed any sense of guilt when exposed for their hurtful insensitivity or selfishness.

11. Mixed signals… running from very hot (passionate sexually) to complete cold, left in the dust, see you later.

12. There was an eery void “behind the mask,” both revealed what I consider to be unconscious deficits of self-esteem. In time, these were revealed (his were more hidden but could be characterized by a “shy, humble” view of himself contrary to his predatory conquests, hers came out in logically chaotic emails when she wasn’t getting something from me). Oddly, they would spew this out from time to time but neither seemed to be aware of how it caused them to act, so in this sense it seems like an unconscious awareness they always carry.

13. Both were impulsive in the moment, decisions were made quickly almost randomly.

14. Both broke off the relationship suddenly and without warning!

15. Both would from time to time obsess over something they had no power over that caused them stress.

16. Neither seemed concerned if I was ever hungry or thirsty. If they were, then I might be also.

17. When any kind of problem was presented to them it was met with a quarrelsome and defensive posture, neither were willing to work productively to solve a problem with me together. Since they didn’t see anything as broken, there was nothing offered to fix it.

18. Both showed a need to control conversations and social settings. Both often relied on an “outgoing” and “larger than life” personality to achieve this.

19. No real or deep thought-out values. During my second experience, I attempted to find out what was behind multiple opinions (often self righteous opinions held against others) and why these were formed. I found very little under that shell. Instead, to avoid any real thought effort, the questions might be easily turned around and handed back to me.

20. Both would announce, not discuss, both would tell, not ask.

21. Both eventually would reveal they were on the lookout for something “better” and not wanting to settle.

22. Both regard relationships as interchangeable. If I don’t meet their needs, someone else will.

23. Both expressed that they often felt misunderstood. (I wonder why!)

24. Both could at times easily discuss THEIR feelings but never mine.

25. A pervasive sense of humor they both shared was found at other people’s misfortunes.

26. Both gave me odd little presents at the beginning. I believe these to be impulsive purchases, not much real thought went into them it felt like.

27. The lavish flattery… I was to star in a pin-up calendar, I was the smartest guy ever, so accomplished, the best they had ever had!! (uh, how many have you had!!??)

28. Both indifferent about core qualities of healthy relationships: real love, caring, commitment, loyalty.

I started that list last week as I tried to gain my sanity back… It helped!! Perhaps it would be helpful to share with others.

I am still in “relationship recovery” it seems. I learned about three and half years ago I have a blind spot for this kind of behavior. The Lovefraud site helped change my life! I have a developing awareness now that I have a weakness (or blind spot) that I am working on in mistakenly letting relationships propel quickly past emotional involvement right into physical intimacy. With the “S” this can happen easily I now know.

I will be working harder to be careful, to value myself more and not act as impulsively as these predators. I will also pray. I sense that I have suffered with low self-esteem for a long time in my life, luckily, I have a tool to help me out of this. It is love. I know it has to be love and less fear running my life. Love from inside me to build me up, to help me express this in healthy ways. I am determined now more than ever to keep on this path. I will feel less empty and I will keep growing.

 


Comment on this article

110 Comments on "LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Male and female sociopaths have remarkable similarities"

Notify of

Caringaunt, it is important that the psychopaths have their stable of enablers to assist them in their plots and plans…either actively knowing what they are doing, or being so weak that the weakness becomes knowingly endorsing evil. Just keep on showing that little girl what REAL LOVE and caring is…hopefully she will grasp it at some point in her life….that is all you can do. Your brother isn’t going to change, and if he did you can bet your bottom dollar that the wife would throw horrible fits and the situation might actually become worse for the little girl unless he got sole custody of her and that’s not likely in my opinion.

[email protected] Hey! glad to see you! Yep, they do like the porn and of course your house would be nicer for the pix! How thoughtless of you to object! LOL ROTFLMAO

Dear Caringaunt,

We posted “over” each other….to answer your question about “talking to her”—-you might as well talk to a rabid dog. She will only be PROVOKED to do more of what she is doing. By talking to her you are letting her know that what she is doing is SUCCESSFUL, and that she is causing you pain, so she will jump on that chance to be “offended” and either keep you completely away from the child or make it worse.

This is a case where I think that Skylar’s GRAY ROCK (be boring) is the way to go with this woman. Don’t stick your head up because the nail that sticks up is the one hit with the hammer. LOL

This is a case where you have to PRETEND YOU DON’T SEE WHAT IS GOING ON with the SIL. First off, the woman hates you. She is about CONTROL and so you have to let her think you are STUPID and do not see what is going on. Swallow your pride, and just spend time with the child when you can.

Of course the child will do her mother’s bidding, she MUST IN ORDER TO SURVIVE….she will be punished if she does not. The girl will do what ever she has to to avoid the punishment her mom will meet out, but then she “forgets” because she enjoys being with you….so just use the time you ahve with her to be a CARING AUNT and let her see what a loving relationship is all about. As she gets older and gets some autonomy from mommy dearest you may be able to spend more time with her and under better circumstances.

I really do think that trying to “talk to” the SIL is counter productive. Good luck.

Dear Joyce,

WOW! Thanks for the great advice, you seem to understand my situation very well. The weak, my brother endorsing the evil knowingly, talking to SIL is like talking to a rabid dog, not to let SIL know she is causing me pain (SHE IS), is making a lot of sense to me. So I will have to act unaffected. I want to give SIL a piece of my mind, uncover her mask, & expose her. But you have made me think, my anger & frustration being set aside. So I will not talk to her… I really appreciate the advice. Thank You!

Yes, my niece is very scared. When I first get there, all she cares about is carrying out mommy’s orders. I cannot even suggest a different activity, it is as if she is in a trance. This is usually for the first hour, then the following two hours, I see my niece again, I recognize her… This is very contrasting behavior, like black & white. I had a hard time with it, but now I am understanding this better…brainwashed, scared little girl. So I will do what I can and yes I do need all the luck.

Dear Caring Aunt,

I do understand your situation, because I have wanted to protect my own loved ones from the psychopaths, and was helpless to do so. It is frustrating, and I didn’t do a good job because I let my anger and frustration SHOW.

Since the ONLY way you can have contact with the girl is to have contact with her mother and your brother, you are going to HAVE TO be “sweet” to them. They have ALL the “trump” cards, which are access to your niece. So they control the game and you can’t even say you don’t like the rules.

This is when Skylar’s being as boring as a “gray rock” SHINES. It takes back bone and determination to pull it off though, because our natural inclination is to “tell them what we think” or to try to “fix” them. Can’t be done!

So you are going to do a little reverse manipulation….you are just going to have to PLAY “LET’S PRETEND YOU ARE NOT A COMPLETE JERK FACE AND I DON’T GET WHAT AN ABUSER YOU ARE TO EVERYONE AROUND YOU” to the SIL. Laugh!!!!

In the meantime, this gives you access to the child and you can model real love and concern for her. As she goes to school and meets others she will hopefully start to see that mommy dearest isn’t the only person in the world. Hopefully she will find a mentor in a teacher or counselor at school. Maybe you can volunteer some at the school, or some other way to spend some time with her. As she gets older she isn’t going to be under mommy dearest’s complete control like she is now at a younger age, so don’t give up on this project, it will take time and PATIENCE ABOVE ALL ELSE!

Also, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, so keep on educating yourself about psychopaths and manipulative people so that you can in turn pass some of this information on to the girl as she grows. The “Socipath Next door” is a good book, as well as Several others here on LoveFraud.

Protecting our children (as a people and a country) is the duty of every person and showing these children love and care is what will keep the world afloat I think. Since you have no legal recourse as long as this woman is not physically abusing her child, and as long as her husband is participating by doing nothing (for whatever reason) your hands are tied except for the amount of time you can spend with the girl by kissing up to the emotionally Abusing mother. I believe though that children do profit from the love that is shown to them even by the community and extended family. I am glad that this little girl has a CARING AUNT who knows what the heck is going on! She is blessed though she may not know it yet.

When you need to scream, come here! LOL

Caring Aunt,
I’m concerned for you more than I am with the daughter.

Spaths have no limits and there is nothing to stop her from framing you or “accidenting you”. She has no conscience.

What I’ve discovered is that spaths can tell when they are in the presence of a really good person, someone who has a conscience and is offended by evil – MANY people are not.

Spath despise those good people. This might explain why she hates you. No amount of gray rock is going to help you hide that and I’m afraid that if you walk into the lion’s den, thinking gray rock will protect you, you would be wrong.

Gray rock is not meant to be used that way. I’m afraid people just aren’t understanding the purpose of gray rock at all.

Gray rock is used specifically to MAKE THE SPATH GO NC WITH YOU. It is used so that you don’t have to run from the spath, since running makes them chase you. Instead it makes them RUN FROM YOU because you are so dreadfully boring they’d rather die than be in your presence.

Gray rock is a process for going NC without letting them know that you went NC. You make it THEIR choice to leave you.

If you gray rock her AND continue to show up at her house, you will make her despise you more – for being good AND boring AND imposing your good, boring presence on her.

When you gray rock a spath you have to leave them an opening to run from you, otherwise it’s like backing a snake into a corner.

I know you don’t want to hear this, but I think the best bet is to stay away. Continue to watch, learn and collect evidence to the best of your ability. Only act when you have no choice.

zoey
i have learned so far that is a key for fem spaths is the ability to throw it all away in an instant, they always have a backup plan always, no remorse to just kick anyone or anything away.

Dear Joyce,

Thanks for your understanding, insight, and your encouragement. I told my husband last night about visiting LF if I needed to scream. He laughed, said that he is glad and said bless her heart (meaning yours). He has seen me in so much turmoil, having problems with my family, he has asked me to stay NC unless I am able to handle it better. Sometimes it affects our other healthy relationships as well! I am hoping also my niece will bond with someone pretty soon, (a mentor, classmate’s mom, anybody)but I also fear SIL will sabotage that… SIL interrogates her daughter, watches her every emotion, every move, consumes her, alters behaviors, destroys bonds.

Joyce you have given me a lot of pearls, has made me wiser and more aware. Skylar has also given me good advice about being “standoffish” in an earlier post. Annie has told me children will tolerate physical abuse more easily than someone playing with their head. So I want my niece to know she is not alone, I SEE this, I don’t think it is right either. Hopefully that makes her stronger because she knows I am on her side, I validate her, immunize her. Thank You ALL for your advice & concern, each one of you in turn validate me and my beliefs! Thanks LF.

Hey Skylar,
Yeah I have been warned by you earlier as well, and do worry about what SIL is going to PIN on me?! Very valid point. She is capable of anything to clear her path,have it her way. She has no real relationships with her family, and a dysfunctional one with her husband, and mother in law, a very fake one with her neighbors and others, has them all fooled. So that leaves me, her worst nightmare. She knows that I know, and I suspect… She can put her daughter in a trance to do things, she can have the child hurt herself when I am around and make it look like?

I will have to stay calm, not be too stressed, protect myself, help my niece, and pray for a miracle. I only get to see my niece 2 Saturdays/month when SIL is at work from 9-12, I leave before she gets home. My mother calls me after she leaves, she says “coast is clear.” Staying away from my niece totally is also a difficult decision for me. My niece will often hide my shoes, or my bag, so I can’t leave. She will block the door and say “road block”, she is a very loving child, now you see why I am also so motivated to help her. Thanks Skylar for your advice, I really appreciate it.

Aunt,

It appears to me that this woman wants to be IN CONTROL…so, if you do not challenge that control, and stay out of her face as much as possible—and “after all you are just going there to visit your MOTHER who lives there, and well…if the kid hangs around, what are you supposed to do, say to her “go away kid I don’t like you?” LOL

If you have to see the SIL make the conversation all about Seeing Mama, not the little girl.

I know it is difficult, and it will take some toll on you, it is like these peoplle leave a “black cloud” of evil hanging over their house.

I do think it is a good idea though that to protect yourself that you are not ALONE with the child for now in case the SIL tried to accuse you of something, have your mom in the room with you and the girl 100% of the time, or your brother, just a witness. Or if your husband will go with you, have him sit and talk to your mom or your bro but where they can both SEE YOU and the girl.

CAUTION is the name of the game and say “yes dear, you’re right dear” to the SIL, don’t challenge the biatch! Don’t give her any excuse to ban you from seeing the child.

Hey Joyce,

Thanks for your advice again!!! Usually I am never alone with the child, I try to incorporate my mom, because when SIL gets home, the child is not allowed to even say much to her grandma. I also make her go to the mail box, get the mail for daddy and encourage some interaction there. But I never really thought about it in a way SIL may try to accuse me of something. So thanks for that advice and I will be a little cautious now.

Funny you should mention my husband coming with me. He flat out thinks my brother should divorce her, he is not welcome in their house. He does not care too much for my family & my family does not like him either.

I am off to my in laws for the holidays, I would like to wish you a very Merry Christmas! Yes, I will maintain contact with the child as much as I can, and try not to give them any excuses to ban me from seeing my niece.

Dear Aunt, well I can understand why your husband doesn’t like your family….I don’t even know them and I don’t like them! LOL

I’m glad you didn’t turn out like them as well, it sounds pretty miserable and dysfunctional, but you know, your brother is a FULL PARTICIPANT IN IT, even if he is “only” an enabler. Unfortunately the little girl is the pawn/token or Prize in the game right now. What a shame. Well, Any positive interaction she can have with anyone can’t hurt her so at least you can try.

1 9 10 11

Send this to a friend