By | December 9, 2011 110 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Male and female sociopaths have remarkable similarities

Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader “PressEject” has written several insightful Letters to Lovefraud about his involvements with sociopathic men. You can read them here:

Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 1)

Finding sanity after the sociopath (part 2)

Pulled in by the child in the sociopath

As a bisexual person, PressEject was most recently romantically involved with a woman who also turned out to be disordered. In this post, he compares the two experiences.

By PressEject

There was absolutely NOTHING in her emails that asked me to find with her (together) some kind of understanding or resolution. Instead it was like she was writing the script for everything, forgetting another person might have a view different than hers. I let her write it, I stepped back. I was not being asked for anything, so no hard feelings in not responding luckily (other than the overall regret and unease from falling into this sticky web.)

As someone with a bisexual past, I am now a person who has dated both a male S and a female S. I can tell you that their (non-gender reliant) destructive qualities and personality traits have some remarkable similarities:

1. They both got upset if they didn’t get what THEY want.

2. They both played “the victim” if something was held from them that they wanted.

3. They both tried to use guilt (or gaslighting) to make me do something they wanted.

4. They both had “back up” plans in case I “didn’t work out.” He kept his secret, I remembered his behavior and then asked her if she had a “back up plan” and (surprise!) she said as a matter of fact “yes!” (ouch!)

5. Both would become aggressively frustrated when their views were challenged. (I learned to challenge them the second time around!!)

6. Both “excelled at marketing themselves.” Both were fairly fearless in social settings.

7. I am the one who was blamed for any problems, not them. Could not be criticized.

8. Both were capable of very SHORT-TERM regret. (deceptive practice that I was able to keep my guard up against the second time around.)

9. Lack of real empathy, some amount of fake or obvious empathy that could be gained by them when it was explained to them but not forthcoming if left to their own devices (which was most of the time!)

10. Neither showed any sense of guilt when exposed for their hurtful insensitivity or selfishness.

11. Mixed signals… running from very hot (passionate sexually) to complete cold, left in the dust, see you later.

12. There was an eery void “behind the mask,” both revealed what I consider to be unconscious deficits of self-esteem. In time, these were revealed (his were more hidden but could be characterized by a “shy, humble” view of himself contrary to his predatory conquests, hers came out in logically chaotic emails when she wasn’t getting something from me). Oddly, they would spew this out from time to time but neither seemed to be aware of how it caused them to act, so in this sense it seems like an unconscious awareness they always carry.

13. Both were impulsive in the moment, decisions were made quickly almost randomly.

14. Both broke off the relationship suddenly and without warning!

15. Both would from time to time obsess over something they had no power over that caused them stress.

16. Neither seemed concerned if I was ever hungry or thirsty. If they were, then I might be also.

17. When any kind of problem was presented to them it was met with a quarrelsome and defensive posture, neither were willing to work productively to solve a problem with me together. Since they didn’t see anything as broken, there was nothing offered to fix it.

18. Both showed a need to control conversations and social settings. Both often relied on an “outgoing” and “larger than life” personality to achieve this.

19. No real or deep thought-out values. During my second experience, I attempted to find out what was behind multiple opinions (often self righteous opinions held against others) and why these were formed. I found very little under that shell. Instead, to avoid any real thought effort, the questions might be easily turned around and handed back to me.

20. Both would announce, not discuss, both would tell, not ask.

21. Both eventually would reveal they were on the lookout for something “better” and not wanting to settle.

22. Both regard relationships as interchangeable. If I don’t meet their needs, someone else will.

23. Both expressed that they often felt misunderstood. (I wonder why!)

24. Both could at times easily discuss THEIR feelings but never mine.

25. A pervasive sense of humor they both shared was found at other people’s misfortunes.

26. Both gave me odd little presents at the beginning. I believe these to be impulsive purchases, not much real thought went into them it felt like.

27. The lavish flattery… I was to star in a pin-up calendar, I was the smartest guy ever, so accomplished, the best they had ever had!! (uh, how many have you had!!??)

28. Both indifferent about core qualities of healthy relationships: real love, caring, commitment, loyalty.

I started that list last week as I tried to gain my sanity back… It helped!! Perhaps it would be helpful to share with others.

I am still in “relationship recovery” it seems. I learned about three and half years ago I have a blind spot for this kind of behavior. The Lovefraud site helped change my life! I have a developing awareness now that I have a weakness (or blind spot) that I am working on in mistakenly letting relationships propel quickly past emotional involvement right into physical intimacy. With the “S” this can happen easily I now know.

I will be working harder to be careful, to value myself more and not act as impulsively as these predators. I will also pray. I sense that I have suffered with low self-esteem for a long time in my life, luckily, I have a tool to help me out of this. It is love. I know it has to be love and less fear running my life. Love from inside me to build me up, to help me express this in healthy ways. I am determined now more than ever to keep on this path. I will feel less empty and I will keep growing.


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Ox Drover

Dear Press eject,

Thanks for sharing this “view from both sides now” and I agree with you….the self centered views of the psychopath (by any name) are the same regardless of race, color, creed, national origin, sexual orientation, …etc.

I think your determination to keep on the path of learning to love yourself is an excellent one, and as you mentioned the “blind spot” is one that I think many of us have had and we allow the relationships with these people to propel quickly past “getting to know you” into physical intimacy which is the “hook” that allows them to implant that hold into us….those of us that bond with physical intimacy, which they really aren’t capable of doing.

Thanks for your articles, and for your most insightful posts. Glad you are here.


Dear presseject ~

Thank you, I enjoyed your perspective, interesting. You said you started the list last week and it helped in your recovery process. I agree, sometimes writing things down and looking at them in black and white gives us a clearer picture.

Did you notice that female spaths are more vindictive?


Jeepers creepers! This list NAILS the spath I knew to a cross. (no offense meant to Jesus, etc..).

I have met different ‘kinds’ of spaths. Some very intellectual and ‘ivory towerish’, some plain stoopid, aritistic, some reserved and quiet.

But these types, the one’s I have also had a blind spot with. They are the big personality/sexual types. They embarrassed me in public, just being around them. They were loud and boisterous, overly attentive and flamboyant. But they also, in the past, seemed so unflappable to me. I think I kind of wanted what they had. They also were the most similar to my mother. They were the overtly narcissistic ones, who did nothing to hide their grandiosity.

By comparison some of the other spaths I have encountered I wasn’t ‘really’ taken in by, but I could feel the pull and the underlying tactics were the same, they were just executed more ‘quietly’. But I didn’t have an attraction to them- they couldn’t sneak into my ‘blind spot’. I wasn’t using them to re- enact my relationship with my mother, trying to get her to value me.

Boy oh boy. Good list Press eject! Thanks.



wow press i was slammed when i read your list, i have blown it up and printed it to put on my wall, i wish i could have seen this 4 years ago, and thank you for the honest comparison doenst happen much around here


I stopped by to see if there was any discussion of the various recent public scandals, from Herm Cain to coaches molesting boys but much of this posting certainly resonates so I can’t help but comment.

In particular: “his were more hidden but could be characterized by a “shy, humble” view of himself contrary to his predatory conquests…”

My ex spat on various websites describes himself as “shy” and “modest” but actively posted videos of himself on Xtube.

“..would announce, not discuss, both would tell, not ask…”

“…broke off the relationship suddenly and without warning…”


“Neither showed any sense of guilt when exposed for their hurtful insensitivity or selfishness.”

Or used blame-shifting back to me.

Ox Drover

Hey, BBE! Glad to see you back!!!

Yea, old Herman seems to have gotten caught with his pants down, and down and down and DOWN!!! I think they are more than past his ankles, and Newt is on what, his third or fourth wife? Can’t remember how many. Not sure what the deal is with politicos, they don’t seem to be able to stay solid with one partner…or even two. LOL

As for the coaches and other pedophiles, they seem to be coming out of the wood work….news is all about teachers and coaches all over the place having sex with the students/kids, or trying to, but my hope is that the Sandusky thing and the Fine thing will make schools more aware that they will be caught with their pants down, and maybe even lose their jobs or be prosecuted for not standing up and DOING WHAT IS RIGHT!

How ya’ been?



Thanks. I took a certification class and now I am studying for the exam. Also been networking…

A common and relatively undiscussed aspect of all these cases is that the initial reaction by all parties (or institutions) was very similar and completely disingenuous. As such, one needs to discuss the “conventional wisdom” of their legal and public relations advice, particularly in the case of Penn State, where all involved parties should have been placed on administrative leave.

Regarding Cain, I simply think he is such a Narcissist that in his mind he has never done anything wrong!

Ox Drover

Yea, him and all the rest of the politicos and CEO big shots and highly paid coaches are ENTITLED….I won’t even bother listing the names….LOL

Oh, well…hope your exam goes well!


Thanks. Its early January so I have time…

I wish I knew the answer to reign-in the “entitled”. One interesting approach, raised in Europe, is a financial transaction tax. For the average person, this is no more than the fee for buying or selling a stock ($10 per $10,000).

However, it really diminishes high frequency trading and derivatives, which are based on low profit percentages but on very, very large amounts.

A very simple law with far-reaching effect. in fact, many say we need to change regulations in this country from complicated “what you can do” to simple “what you cannot do.”

Thus, while it would be difficult to write laws regulating derivatives, as their complexity is part of the problem, a simple tax would eliminate 80% of this risky and volatile trading that does no good to the economy except for those involved.

PS. Do you like Corzine’s mea culpa regarding the missing $600 million? He has that kind of personal wealth and I hope that investors in MF Global are able to go after him personally.

Ox Drover

I thought it was 1.2 BILLION that was missing?


They don’t even know. What is now know that there were weekend transfers of client funds out of MF Global, destination unknown.

Of course the “regulatory” agency, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, a for-profit company, states that one “rogue” company does not make for a bad system and no further government regulation is required…


Dear Presseject,
I have just read all your posts and wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I struggled yesterday ….I have to admit I was missing him. 2months NC and counting but why when I’ve been doing so good did yesterday happen? There weren’t any obvious triggers.

Anyway, your articles and the posts that were written were just what I needed to bring me back to reality.
Evil …..check
Never cared about me……check
Etc, etc, etc.
When am I gona stop THINKING about him????


Friends, Strongawoman, Alex, slimone, Milo, Oxy and Donna, thank you all for your time and comments and support here. My healing would not have gotten off the ground without the help and knowledge I have gained through this one site. To anyone else reading, my hope is you will come to see that support and change are within reach, it begins with each of being able to open our hearts again, letting go of ideas and resentments that only serve to keep us prisoners. We are free, and eventually, in time, we learn to honor and respect this freedom and… ourselves.


strongawoman… I know exactly the question you are asking of yourself “when do we stop thinking of them?” Donna posted my earlier letters about the first encounter I had with the (male) sociopath. I went back to read what I had written almost three years ago. At the time, I had never known a thing about this kind of disorder so I was blindsighted by the D&D (devalue and abrupt discard after six months of assuming I had found my “soulmate.”) The first month after the D&D I was in something like a state of shock, I learned my physical symptoms were those of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). It took the rest of the summer to sort out the feelings and find my heart again (I am still working on this last part of course). If you have made it through two months now, first I congratulate you and second, I will say you are moving past the storm. And that in this moment, even with thoughts of your S, you are free. Embrace this. Embrace yourself now, and embrace that you are healing rather than allowing yourself to be abused. Allow the thoughts to come and go, in time you will not have any of the emotional attachment to your abuser. You will remember the events, but you will not be held in place by them. Be free, keep loving…

Alex….you are welcome, I am glad the check list made it up on your wall! It is helpful for us I think to review these characteristics from time to time, especially if we have a past pattern of attracting and being taken by such types. The charm, we learn eventually, masks a void, a black hole that only takes what we hold precious, but never returns this!

slimone… oh yes, when you mentioned being embarrassed in public by the S, how true! At times I was made to feel like an adornment, a cute pet on a leash, an object. And since I had no real sense of my worth at the time, I “allowed” this, even the unease and discomfort it caused me. I too feel “I wanted what they had” BACK THEN. But I now see this as an ILLUSION I fell victim to since I always had more than they would ever have when it comes to a having loving heart. What I didn’t have though was any sense of respect for my heart. Through this path of healing, I am finding the inner resources and strength finally to keep my heart healthy and protected now, not isolated or shut off… or subject to abuse!

MiLo…Regarding your question if the Female S was more vindictive or not compared to the Male S., in thinking back, perhaps in my case, yes, there was more “outrage” on her part if she was not getting what she wanted or was being challenged when I presented my needs. But I am not sure I would rush to make a generalization here. I think any S or N will become vindictive and this is the scary part as the range of behavior as we know can go from pouting to rage, to physical abuse to much, much darker forms of evil that I don’t even wish to mention here! Was she more vindictive OR was I finally looking out for myself better and as a result simply short-circuiting her program by challenging her self-centeredness? (an old episode of Star Trek comes to mind… beware of the Fembots!) Seriously though, if there is NO empathy for our views and needs, this is simply NOT a healthy person to be near, no matter what sex they are and how disordered they are.

Oxy… thank you once again for your unwavering support here. That fast-track to intimacy and the dangerous “hook” you mentioned is part of being aware of our boundaries and interactions. Interesting, we are all human with physical needs, but finally knowing that emotional needs count and need to be met will help me now in determining what IS and what IS NOT a healthy relationship.

By the way, it doesn’t always have to be an intimate relationship…. as an example, I recently walked out on a job I held for about a year. My boss, I began to realize, was completely abusive, with the vindictiveness of someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. I finally walked out about a month ago. Ultimately I was vindicated, the State agreed with my harassment claim submitted on my unemployment application and found I “had good cause to leave.”

I may be unemployed at the moment, but thankfully I am away from the abuse. Can you imagine the rough last couple of months here? A break up (my choice to go “No Contact” with the recent S), PLUS my choice to go “No Contact” with an abusive boss! *sigh* & lol… (I somehow got my sense of humor back! Thank God.)

TO ALL: I hope some of what I have shared here will help others. After all, it is this site that helped me turn things around in my own life and it is in this same spirit of sharing that I add these observations. I wish us all PEACE.


Ox Drover

Dear Press eject,

I’m glad that you had the cajones to go NC with an abusive boss in this bad economy! Good for you! I went NC with a boss once, and she didn’t expect me to, but after her outburst, I resigned, putting the letter in her in box the next day—she then came to me and said “Oxy, we need to talk” and I said “nope, you said it all yesterday” I found out afterward that she had done this to EVERY employee there at least once, I guess to just show her power. I never regretted doing that at all. In fact, the job I got was better! That was one of the nicest things about nursing is I could ALWAYS find a job in a day or two if I needed to for any reason! I feel badly for those though who are TRAPPED in a job “relationshit” with a P or N boss and have no reasonable option to quit.

In new relationships I like to find out as much “back story” on people as I can. Let them tell you, but also keep your ears and eyes open at what others have to say about them as well BEFORE you become intimately involved with them (especially physically) The bonding hormones (oxytocin) that are released by sexual intimacy are very powerful for those who react to them, and there is some indication in research that psychopaths have limited responses to the hormone, apparently there are fewer receptors than empaths have. So though they may have the same amount of the hormone, they are lacking in binding sites. This means, essentially, that sex for us binds and bonds us to them, but not the reverse.



I also left my job last year after 12 years…a very good job at a very big company. I did so to get away from a boss I also did not like and to get away from X spath and the other woman he was triangulating me with. So I also had the double whammy…I was devastated by the breakup and also gave up everything when I left my job. But I had to. I could no longer stay there. There was no way. I had reached the end of the rope. But I am so much better now that I did it. It has been 16 months and I am really settling into my new life. I am living the new normal and it feels good. It took awhile to feel “OK” about not getting up everyday and living the rat race. We are so conditioned to do that…our jobs define us and that’s what we do. It takes awhile to “decompress” and it took me a at least a year to feel comfortable.

I am glad you are doing better as well!


Press Eject ~ thanks for answering my question. I have noticed that women S/P/N’s seem to be able to stick things in the back of their mind, keep it there for a long time, then strike out of no where, when you are least expecting it. Like grudge holding on steroids. I agree though, men can do this equally well.

Glad you have regained your sense of humor, I think that is a big step towards recovery and also a real release.

Thanks again, glad you are here

Ox Drover

Milo, I think the “grudge holding” is an individual thing depending on the N-injury that they received from us not doing what they wanted us to do….and how entitled they feel to having control.

Your daughter’s one trump card was/is the grandson, which when you got custody of him, you had taken it away, so the ONLY way she had to “get even” was the Custody fight, and she just accidently managed to get you involved with the GAL from hell psychopathic greedy biatch, so the two of them working together, the GAL for monetary gain, and your daughter for revenge purposes (of course both using the child as a club to hit you with for their own individual purposes and not caring about what damage was done to the child as a result).

My son got several N-injuries from me, one when I punished him when he was 11, and then when I turned him in to the cops at age 17 for theft, then again, by cutting him out of my will, and knowing if I outlive my egg donor that he is cut out of the entire estate, so he is FURIOUS to get revenge on me. The last person who turned him in to the cops died for her trouble. I have no doubt that my son will hold on to his grudge against me for the rest of his life.


Louise, yes, the Double Whammy! Good for you for setting yourself free! It is an illusion that we try to find our self-worth sometimes through our work. I too am learning how to redefine myself now or as some friends say “it is good to re-invent yourself” from time to time, it might mean a complete career change, but so be it. It was really ironic too since I had been excelling at work up until the point where the abuse became too much. A friend suggested that my success and perhaps my growing self confidence really felt threatening to my boss. But regardless of the ins and outs of this, the basic problem was the abuse being inflicted on a personal level. I am lucky I recognized it fully and chose to leave. It did not matter if I was going to receive unemployment, that was not even a consideration when I walked out. Somehow these principles that we are taking responsibility for will ultimately bring us to a safe place, at work and in our relationships, I have faith in this. I am glad to read of your progress!


OXY: Yes, I have read about the chemical disparity researchers are pointing to and that you are mentioning:

“The bonding hormones (oxytocin) that are released by sexual intimacy are very powerful for those who react to them, and there is some indication in research that psychopaths have limited responses to the hormone, apparently there are fewer receptors than empaths have. So though they may have the same amount of the hormone, they are lacking in binding sites. This means, essentially, that sex for us binds and bonds us to them, but not the reverse.”

It is a bit of information that helps us to understand better it is them, not us that are lacking. I am choosing to focus on my own choices now, judging less and ultimately learning to let go of the past (a surrendering that Travis is writing beautifully about in “An Invitation to a Miracle”). It is not easy to walk away from what once felt like a great connection, both at work (especially in this economy as you point out, yikes) and with the toxic relationship(s). But I plan to stay the course!


Oxy ~ yea, that n-injury is like sticking a needle in the tiger’s eye ~ somewhere, somehow you just know you are going to pay for it.

I’m sure your son will NEVER get over what he feels are the “wrongs” you did to him. He justifies – anyone gets in my way of what I am entitled to – they deserve everything they get.

Look how the daughter’s mask slipped when I refused Thanksgiving dinner, unleash the rage, anger and how I really feel about you beatch. But, mask firmly in place again, just last night she told me how she wished she could get me an expensive, beautiful Christmas gift that I SO deserved. Gray rock replied, don’t worry about it dearie, I KNOW how much you care, I don’t need gifts.

PS – there is a big pile of barf next to the gray rock

Ox Drover

Good deal, press eject,

I like sex as much as any one (even us old coots don’t enjoy sex if we enjoyed it as youngsters!) LOL but at the same time, I am not interested in sexual intimacy with someone I am not in a relationship with…to me, sexual intimacy is reserved as a “bonding ritual between two people who care about each other”….not to say anything about the DANGERS of sexual intimacy with a partner who is sleeping with others.

Recently a friend of mine (a man) ended up getting a non-life threatening but ugly STD and I was discussing this with him, at his request, trying to educate him….and I suggested that he should use a condom at least…and he said “Oh, I don’t like them, and I only have sex with someone I know well enough to not have to use one.” I laughed and said (given the conversation we were having about his STD) AND HOW IS THAT WORKING FOR YOU?

I also said, I would not have sex with anyone under ANY circumstances until we both had an ALL CLEAR STD check by the health department and he said “but what if the other person said NO, they wouldn’t get a check?” and I said “then I would NOT consider sleeping with them.” He just did not understand my [email protected] DUH!!!!!????!!!!

You know this man is not an idiot, and we have been close friends since childhood, but he has NO CLUE, even after my “educational seminar” on STDs for him because what I said to him is NOT WHAT HE WANTED TO HEAR….and I imagine that he will continue his sexual practices unchanged after his treatment.

Casual sex with untested partners, even using a condom is playing Russian Roulette with diseases that can cause death and/or disability, I’m just not interested in playing that game when there are WAY TOO MANY “Bullets” in the guns.

Ox Drover

ps Do you know what they call people who use condoms for birth control? PARENTS LOL ROTFLMAO

Know the difference between Herpes and true love? Herpes is forever!


Milo, the more I think about it, yes, the way you describe this it does seem to apply to the female S. I encountered. Out of nowhere came these grudges, often masking (thinly) her insecurities almost like a paranoia that she used to trash our relationship, not once thinking how offending these opinions could be. Running hot and cold, it was enough to make my heart pound sometimes! (fortunately I recognized this much quicker this time around.) The male S. did this too but was more secretive about it in some ways, but again, back then I hadn’t thought to really question motivations. I do now!!


presseject ~ i will do this all in lower case, maybe it will slip by, because i know i will get slammed for this, but – i think women, in general, are more vindictive than men.

don’t tell anyone i just said that

Ox Drover

MiLo, what makes you think you will get slammed! LOL Actually, I think either sex can be vindictive depending on the circumstances. Saying one sex or the other is the “most” vindictive is like saying “Johnny is a soldier, Johnny is 6 ft tall, therefore all soldiers are male and 6 ft tall.”

I think it depends on the individual and even those of us who have encountered more than one psychopath or psychopaths of both sexes can’t really GENERALIZE enough too come to a real good conclusion.

I do think that females are usually less “diagnosed” as P and more often diagnosed as “borderline PD” and I am not sure that BPD and PPD are not “mostly the same critter” with a different name, though more people with BPD do seem to “self harm” (cut themselves etc).

Just like a great Dane and a beagle are both still DOGS…look a bit different and a bit of different disposition, but still DOGS.


I just knew it Oxy – sorry. I wasn’t talking about spaths, I was talking about us fairly normal women.

Who do you think came up with “I don’t get mad, I get even.” I betcha a beef cow it was a woman.

Ever notice at a party or function, all the men are talking about sports, work, politics while most of the women are talking about whoever couldn’t attend.

I spent several years working in an office with only men. Then I went to a place with mostly women – talk about drama, I thought I’d lose my mind.

Ofcourse, I am half way joking here and I don’t like to Generalize, but still I think there is some validity in my statement.

Love MiLo (please don’t hold a grudge over this – LOL)

Ox Drover

Grrrrr! Of course I will hold a grudge,. how DARE you disagree with me! LOL ROTFLMAO 🙂 But I tell you I have known some “catty” men too….and I agree with you there are some catty women, but the nit picking they do I don’t think is nearly as destructive as the revenge men take. The superficial nit picking drama rama type stuff that most (in my opinion) women engage in I don’t even ….welllllll….come to think of it, turns out one of THE nastiest, meanest most vindictive evil biatches I know personally is a female psychopath….and she absolutely “ruinated” financially and emotionally her last husband who adored her. He was only her 4th or 5th husband and she has “broken up” several marriages I can name, plus and plus and plus….I think she is on the order, plus some, of your daughter and my son combined! She was also married to a psychopath who killed another man while having an affair with the guy’s wife, and he ended up getting off, though he did spend a year in our local jail til the trial…but no doubt in anyone’s mind that he DID the crime…even the jury. Problem is here in this county if you’re on a jury and vote to convict certain members of certain families and you are not allowed to wear a sack over your head, your house is likely to burn or you are likely to be run off the road where it turns near a cliff….we do have some stuff like that goes on here in this county with some really bad arse folks. Kind of like “Deliverance” though I hate to say it.


I think I have to admit that I am just ever so slightly, in a loving way ofcourse, vindictive.

If hubby makes me mad, I remain silent. Then for the next week I feed him diet food. hahahahaha That will show the old guy.

I remember the time we traded our traditional roles, on a dare ofcourse. He hung his pants out on the clothes line, touching the ground IMAGINE. I accidentally ran over them with the lawn tractor.

Oxy ~ you have “Deliveance” – I have Amish beard cutting


Milo, Oxy, it is interesting to compare the behaviors of the S’s or N’s we have encountered. Since learning of these disorders, I have spent countless hours reading, reflecting and learning all in an effort to understand better. The list I sent to Lovefraud, posted above helps me to see more clearly the remarkable similarities I encountered with both the male and female S’s, not so much the differences or individual quirks.

The list above applies to both the individuals I encountered and I see each equally in the descriptions. It has helped me to detach from their behavior, to recognize it is the same kind of abuse, if in fact I choose to endure such craziness. My heart was essentially broken in the same way by both individuals from assuming there was love there and eventually seeing the void when the mask fell off.

In reflecting even further (back to a time I have worked hard to let go and forget) I see that the male S. was extremely cruel in his responses during the D&D, in ways that made my head spin. So to answer MiLo’s question better, I still think what I first wrote applies:

[ If there is NO empathy for our views and needs, this is simply NOT a healthy person to be near, no matter what sex they are and how disordered they are. ]

People should know the dangers of these individuals, and I would assume any could be capable of horrendous crimes and not just of the heart. I feel extremely lucky to have this new awareness now with both men and women with this disorder as I am sure both will fall in front of my path again from time to time. With God’s help, I will not have to endure the damage they can cause, knowing better to quickly extract myself from their predatory gaze before anything like this ever happens again.


Ox Drover

Milo, LOL Yea, the Amish beard cutting was funny to me, but actually I think it is pretty twisted! I think they charged them with hate crimes or something along that line pretty serious. Guess they will have to cut their beards off in prison…I don’t think most prisons allow long hair or beards.

Most of the Amish I know are pretty cool folks, but I guess there is “one” (or two) in every crowd!

My husband and I were kind of like that (in a funny way) and he drove faster than I liked or was comfortable with. I was NEVER afraid with him in a plane, he was all business, but in a vehicle on the road he was terrible! So I refused to ride with him for 3 months, and when people would question why we drove in separate vehicles for a 70 mile trip to a friend’s wedding, I would say loudly enough for everyone to hear (my voice carries like a fog horn!) “Because he drives too fast and I will not risk my life riding with him any more.”

It took about 3 months but he agreed to slow down because he knew I would not give up. I AM STUBBORN!!!! LOL


Really? I’ve never met a “catty” man. Seriously. But, oh, dear…the women! I would rather work with an office full of men anyday over women. Too much drama, too much gossip, too much backstabbing. I never experienced that when I worked with men.


Oh good Louise, you understood me. Exactly, I will work with men any day of the week. Often the backstabbing and “cat fights” can get quite vindictive.


Press eject ~ You are right, male or female, these people are toxic predators and down right dangerous individuals. Both are capable of chewing us up and spitting us back out.

Are only focus should be on escaping, healing and learning to spot the signs (red flags) so we never have to experience the pain again. With God’s help, we can all accomplish this.

Thanks for your insight.


Oxy ~ I should not have joked about the beard cutting. I’ll tell you what, the man who is behind it all is a certified Psychopath. He has formed a cult. There is everything from kidnapping, holding people against their will and rape going on. The beard cutting is all being done to people who have left the cult or the people who have helped the people who left. It is violent attacks, not just hair cutting. It is not about the Amish religion, this man was a Bishop, left the church and took his children and their famlies with him, several years ago. He will not let anyone in the cult hold church services or worship in any way. This is pure evil and he is the dictator. Without the Amish willing to press charges, they came up with the Federal Hate Crime charges. I hope they can make it stick. Also, the man owns 500 plus acres and has gas wells on every square inch, so he has in excess of a million dollars, so he can make almost any bail.

Very dangerous and sad.


of course your list is perfect, because they are ALL ALIKE!
It’s always about them.

My spath is vindictive and he hides it. The poisoning, the bizarre sex orgies, and the financial ruin were all part of his vindictiveness. Of course when we say vindictive, we think they are taking revenge for a narcisstic injury, but with a spath – no actual injury is necessary since they are the walking wounded already.

I think men hide their cattyness better than women do. Remember the link which Oxy posted just the other day about gaslighting!

The fact that men and women express differently, doesn’t mean that they aren’t thinking the same things. Both men and women can be passive aggressive but because we use different body language, a lot of it flys under the radar and we don’t “get” it or it gets misinterpreted.

Ox Drover

You know, Milo, sometimes when the situation is so horrible it is funny, even if a psychopath is involved we have to laugh to keep from crying. I read about that guy and he sounds to me like that Jones guy that is burning the Koran down in Florida, a total nut job, and God alone knows how many cults that are out there that just don’t have as much publicity…how about that offshoot Mormon that had the 70 child “brides”—I can’t believe that the PARENTS of those girls who allowed this are not also in prison.

The guy tape recorded every “bowel movement” he had for posterity including the instructions to how to sexually please him and the rapes of his child “wives,” so his own narcissistic twisted mind proved his perversions.


In the book, “The Art of Selfishness” the author says that it’s easier to convince a man not to do something foolish, than it is to convince him not to do something evil, because lots of people don’t mind being evil, but nobody likes to look foolish.

I think that’s why it IS important to laugh at psychopaths. So that people will look at their behavior and recognize it as foolish. Then they will be taken as an example of how not to be.


I think laughing at SPATHS is one step above ignoring them.
Ignoring them is the best – it is a denial of their humanity.


Athena, oh yes I agree!!
My ex HATED being ignored above all else. I have changed my number now so am not getting any unwanted spath attacks via txt but one of the last ones stated that he couldn’t understand my “coldness” to him!! Because I’m ignoring him.

He absolutely hates to be ignored…..he would cause a row and when I ignored him he would say don’t be so ignorant. Yeh he loved to have it both ways. As long as he was winning. Well I win this time. I know how much it will have annoyed him that I didn’t respond. A small victory perhaps but one which I take some pleasure from





Ignoring them is a huge insult.

I can’t remember how long you’ve been NC, but likely he’ll step it up in hopes of some response or validation.

I did the same thing. Changed phone numbers, blocked him from the PBX at work, blocked him through ATT at home, blocked him through Verizon on my cell, changed my work and personal email address. And now the jackass is trying to connect with me on a social networking site. He lurks and leaves his finger print on my profile, and tried to send me messages that way. Loser.

But, it’s hard for him to get through, and every day every hour without him around I get stronger. It’s a fight. A daily fight.




Happy Birthday. Thank you for giving us the gift of YOU.




Yes, I get it. I do realize though that men can be just as dangerous if not more so, but as far as just being “gossipy” and “backstabbing,” I think the women win on that one. I think it’s true what has been said on here also that women are just more sneaky. They may be just as dangerous or toxic as a man, but they plaster that cute smile on their face and everyone thinks they are so sweet when in reality they are poison. I have been slimed first hand by a woman and I saw it up close and personal.


My spath was a woman “friend” While I was dealing with her, I was working in an office where the supervisor was useless, and having an affair with his assistant, and the manager ignored it ALL! The Manager was a man, the supervisor was a man, and the assistant was a woman…and she RAN the show! Yep, totally catty, bitchy, and so forth. That was my last office


@strongawoman –

“”.I have to admit I was missing him. 2months NC and counting but why when I’ve been doing so good did yesterday happen? There weren’t any obvious triggers.”

There does not need to be; your poor old brain and heart are still processing everything. Once they’ve done that, these instances will be fewer and farther between. I am 4 years out and have been 100% NC if you don’t count the myriad of court proceedings (criminal and property settlement) that the Superspath’s behaviour has forced upon me.

I have not cried or felt distress over any bad memory for at least 18 months now.

And yet – when I saw the photographs that the property valuer took for the expert valuations of each of our homes that were done last week for the purposes of this week’s property settlement trial, I cried.

I saw trees I had planted as seeds and as tiny saplings, growing strong and straight and tall in the earth on which the spath walks, but which I can no longer walk.

I saw the beautiful wrought-iron fencing that I had loved and had salvaged from historic but long-dead houses, that had been lovingly renovated and fitted to the boundary fencing of a house lived in by Superspath and his current dupe.

And I saw other, smaller pieces of beautiful decorative wrought-iron panel-work that had been given to me by my best friend of 41 years after she had some left over from works done at her own home. I had used these to weld into a gazebo that I built at what used to be my home, so that whenever I saw them I would think of my friend and so that although so many miles apart, our homes were somehow linked. I had not seen them since leaving in October 2007 and it hurt to see them in HIS yard, where THEY could enjoy them but where I could not.

Its funny how we can think we have cut ourselves loose from things but then how some reminder can have us right back there, weeping and grieving our losses.

I cried when I saw in one photograph, the height and the breadth and beautiful shade offered by the now mature claret ash I had planted as a 75cm sapling in 2006; 5 years later. It was a joy to behold ”“ but it was their joy, not mine. I felt an immediate flash of anger, the twist of envy a the pang of deep distress until it came to me, slowly and unbidden, that the new woman should have the joy of this tree after all. There would not be much else for her soon.

“When am I gona stop THINKING about him???? ”


@Louise and @MiLo –

“I’ve never met a “catty” man. Seriously. But, oh, dear”the women! I would rather work with an office full of men anyday over women. Too much drama, too much gossip, too much backstabbing. I never experienced that when I worked with men.”

In general, I agree with you both (in a normal population), however the Superspath is quite the cattiest person I have ever known, and he is male.

I guess that when it comes down to spathiness, all personal qualities or traits that are negative, destructive and revolting are exemplified to the nth degree in their words and actions.

@skylar –

“…it’s easier to convince a man not to do something foolish, than it is to convince him not to do something evil, because lots of people don’t mind being evil, but nobody likes to look foolish.”

That is why the Superspath walked away from Monday’s trial and agreed to settle for us to each keep hold of what we already have (hang on a minute – isn’t that EXACTLY what I signed 4 years ago????). He had been made to look stupid by the trial Judge, my lawyer and even by his own lawyer. To the point where I felt it necessary to warn my lawyer to watch his back now, because nobody who thwarts a spath ever goes unpunished.

Of course having his own testimony (read: lies) fall down around his ankles on the witness stand can not have helped either. Just 45 minutes into his cross-examination and everyone in the room had him sussed. And we had not even begun on the evidence that I held against him, he fell apart being questioned on 2 small paragraphs of HIS OWN AFFIDAVIT!!!

(Naturally, his partner, sister and mother were not permitted by him to be in the courtoom while he was questioned – they must never know exactly what was said in there….which is why I have ordered a transcript copy that I will eventually post to each of them)

“I think that’s why it IS important to laugh at psychopaths. So that people will look at their behavior and recognize it as foolish. Then they will be taken as an example of how not to be.’

I couldn’t agree more with the sentiment here – I do, however think that we need to be smart about HOW and WHEN and WHERE we do that laughing, because of how dangerous they are.



Haha, me, too…that will also be my last office job. I vowed to never go back to a corporate environment or any type of office environment ever again and so far I have been true to my word. I know what you mean, lady! 🙂



I’m so sorry you have had to deal with a catty SuperSpath! And I’m so sorry about your former property. It sounds so beautiful 🙁


Evil ”..check
Never cared about me—check
its amazing how these all hit home mine never cheated that i know of but the following

constantly accused me of cheating

always belittled me and my family hers was always better

cared sometimes and other times did not give a shit, there was a time when i was supporting her completely and i was without power or food never cared one bit. wasnt her problem

i was good enough to support her, but not good enough to be seen with, wasnt even allowed to take pictures with 2 of us in them.

anytime i challenged the cheating remarks or basically anything it was full on rage against me always told me i was wrong even if i or others could prove different.

any kind of social interaction was not allowed constantly accused me of looking at talking to other women, one time we where on the couch watching tv and she told me my penis was throbbing looking at women on tv?

when i had money wasnt happy till it was completely spent and not on me.

and the healing
i get so damn mad thinking about all of it and then i go home and look at the pictures and sit and cry, i try and think of a way to make it different, but i cant and i shouldnt its all a mess yet

the funny part of all of this is that she new spaths better than anyone read every book, researched like crazy was it practice??


loved to gamble would sit and spend 1000 dollars a week playing video poker, wow sound familiar? we even went as far as to open our own establishement to keep her happy, and when it got shut down wasnt her problem like everything else was all on me,
never admit fault or guilt never! she was embaresed but of course to everyone she knew it was a bad decision by me.
i dont even gamble,


So sorry you have been dragged through all that hurt and sorrow. His next victim may enjoy the fruits of your labour but as you say not for long. If your spath is anything like mine……they’re out of the big super spath mold ….he will rinse and repeat. And yes I agree that it’s better to laugh from a distance. Mine is nasty with a capital N.
Athena, I’m hyper vigilant! He has threatened to wait for me after work so I’m being careful. It’s horrible…..constantly looking over your shoulder. Result for him then…..bas**rd

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